The Oral History of "Madchester" - Part 2

Summary

Ongoing History of New Music: The Oral History of "Madchester" - Part 2

Host: Alan Cross
Guest: Gaz Whelan (Former Drummer for the Happy Mondays)
Release Date: August 13, 2025

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Introduction to the Madchester Scene

In this second installment of the oral history series on Madchester, Alan Cross delves deeper into the vibrant and tumultuous period of the late 1980s and early 1990s in Manchester, England. Joining him is Gaz Whelan, the former drummer of the iconic band Happy Mondays, who provides firsthand insights into the rise and fall of this influential music scene.

The Peak of Madchester and Factory Records

The episode begins with Alan Cross reflecting on his personal connection to history through his grandfather’s stories. Transitioning into the music scene, Alan introduces Gaz Whelan and sets the stage for discussing the zenith of Madchester.

Alan Cross [00:38]:
“This was music that set the stage for much of the British indie music that was to come for the next 15 years. In fact, we're still feeling the impact of Manchester today.”

Gaz recounts the band's relationship with Factory Records, highlighting both the creative freedom and the internal conflicts.

Gaz Whelan [05:40]:
“Apparently we did, though. We do remember it. But apparently we did have some sort of contract with him.”
Alan Cross [06:02]:
“They let you do what?”
Gaz Whelan [06:03]:
“They’d let us do what we want. They were great.”

This dynamic showcases Factory Records' penchant for fostering creative environments, albeit with underlying tensions.

Life in the Studio and the Downfall

Alan and Gaz discuss the challenges faced during the recording of the follow-up album to "Pills, Thrills and Bellyaches." The narrative shifts to stories of excess, substance use, and the eventual decline of the band's cohesion.

Gaz Whelan [07:40]:
“We were drinking a lot of local rum, I was self-medicating with a lot of local herb and that was it.”

A particularly memorable incident involves a car crashing into a local bar, symbolizing the chaotic lifestyle that plagued the band.

Gaz Whelan [09:06]:
“Sean walks. He said, I heard you was here. The guy drove into the bar, drove right into the bar literally.”

This event underscores the reckless behavior that contributed to the fracturing of the Madchester scene.

Impact on Factory Records and Band Dynamics

The conversation shifts to the financial strains and internal conflicts that affected both Factory Records and the Happy Mondays.

Gaz Whelan [10:49]:
“And I think they spent half a million it cost altogether. But it wasn’t. That didn’t break them.”

Alan challenges the notion that the band was responsible for Factory Records' downfall, attributing it instead to poor management.

Alan Cross [06:48]:
“Tony wasn't the greatest businessman.”

The Decline of Madchester and Aftermath

As Madchester's influence waned, Gaz reflects on the band's struggles to maintain their momentum and creative direction.

Gaz Whelan [18:50]:
“I think it's bizarre. Even now, it's still kind of. It's not left. Every TV show, every comedy show in the UK, every...”

The dialogue explores how the initial explosion of creativity couldn't sustain itself, leading to a premature decline of what was once a powerhouse music scene.

Alan Cross [23:30]:
“This is part two of an oral history of the Manchester period in England. Our guide is Happy Mondays drummer Gaz Wieland.”

Legacy and Influence on British Indie Music

Despite its relatively short lifespan, the Madchester scene left an indelible mark on British indie music. The episode highlights how bands from this era paved the way for future genres and movements.

Alan Cross [24:05]:
“I remember being on this side of the Atlantic and looking forward to the import records that would come out every Wednesday.”

Gaz Whelan [26:50]:
“It's music, it's football and it's fashion. Them three things are really important, none more important than the other.”

Manchester Today and Its Enduring Cultural Significance

The conversation concludes with reflections on Manchester's evolution from a gritty music hub to a gentrified city while maintaining its cultural essence.

Alan Cross [25:03]:
“The Charlatans, a band from the original Manchester era who, despite all the odds, are still together.”

Gaz Whelan [27:38]:
“It's the music, it's the football, and it's the fashion. Them three things are really important, none more important than the other.”

Gaz emphasizes Manchester's enduring identity, shaped by its rich musical heritage, passionate football culture, and vibrant fashion scene.

Final Thoughts and Conclusion

Alan Cross wraps up the episode by acknowledging the chaotic yet creative spirit of the Madchester era, as narrated by Gaz Whelan. The stories shared not only illuminate the highs and lows of the scene but also celebrate its lasting influence on music and culture.

Alan Cross [31:34]:
“No, Sean was kind of... Sean's shy. So that's why he did it, you know, he was shy, basically.”

Gaz Whelan [32:25]:
“We are in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.”

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Alan Cross [00:38]:
  “This was music that set the stage for much of the British indie music that was to come for the next 15 years.”

• Gaz Whelan [07:40]:
  “We were drinking a lot of local rum, I was self-medicating with a lot of local herb and that was it.”

• Gaz Whelan [09:06]:
  “Sean walks. He said, I heard you was here. The guy drove into the bar, drove right into the bar literally.”

• Alan Cross [06:48]:
  “Tony wasn't the greatest businessman.”

• Alan Cross [24:05]:
  “I remember being on this side of the Atlantic and looking forward to the import records that would come out every Wednesday.”

• Gaz Whelan [27:38]:
  “It's the music, it's the football, and it's the fashion. Them three things are really important, none more important than the other.”

---

Key Takeaways

• Creative Freedom vs. Management Challenges: Factory Records provided a nurturing environment for bands like Happy Mondays but struggled with effective management, contributing to internal conflicts and financial issues.

• Excess and Chaos: The Madchester scene was marked by a whirlwind of creativity intertwined with substance abuse and reckless behavior, which ultimately led to its decline.

• Enduring Influence: Despite its brief existence, Madchester significantly influenced the trajectory of British indie music, laying the groundwork for future genres and movements.

• Cultural Legacy: Manchester remains a cultural beacon, with its rich history in music, football, and fashion continuing to shape its identity and influence beyond the Madchester era.

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Production Credits:

• Tactical Production: Rob Johnston and Mike Sullivan
• Host: Alan Cross
• Guest: Gaz Whelan

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For more episodes and detailed explorations of music history, subscribe to Ongoing History of New Music on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Alan Cross]

Hey, it's Alan and I just wanted to let you know that you can now listen to the ongoing history of new music, early and ad free on Amazon Music included with Prime. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Feeling lost? Stressed out? Anxious? Welcome to the club. The 24 hour news cycle and doom scrolling and the constant bombardment of information from all directions affect all of us. Yet we're expected to hold it all together. Something that's easier said than done. Men have this thing too, that we're supposed to be strong and steady performers and providers. And you know what? A lot of us do. We just push it down into that black ball inside of us because, well, that's what guys do. We're tough, right? But that leads to depression and burnout and other, shall we say, unhealthy activities as we try to cope. Here's the truth. It's okay to admit that you're struggling and that you need someone to talk to. Doing something about your mental health takes strength. And once you begin to open up and admit all the burdens that you're carrying around, you can work on being the best you can be for yourself, your loved ones, and everyone around you. Now, trust me on this. Once you start talking about the things stuffed into your black ball, the whole universe begins to open up. BetterHelp is there for you. With more than 35,000 therapists available, BetterHelp is the largest online therapy platform. It has an App store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on 1.7 million reviews from clients all over the world. It's so easy and convenient, too. An online session starts with the click of a button at any time of day or night so you can fit therapy into your busy schedule. Learn how to set boundaries, deal with anxiety, and learn positive coping skills. And you can switch therapists anytime. There should never be any stigma around mental health. You take care of your physical health, right? So why should your mental health be any different? As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of experience. Guys, talk it out with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com ongoing today and get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com ongoing. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Gaz Whelan]

Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month.

[Alan Cross]

Is back, so I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

[Gaz Whelan]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Alan Cross]

Of $45 for a three month plan.

[Gaz Whelan]

Equivalent to $15 per month required new.

[Alan Cross]

Customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's.

[Gaz Whelan]

Busy taxes and fees extra see mintmobile.com.

[Alan Cross]

I love hearing stories from people who are actually there. My grandfather is approaching his 101st birthday, which means he was 10 years old before the first commercial radio station received a license. The dude predates all this. He has stories about the rise of the automobile and airplanes and television. He can talk with authority about historical figures, politicians, wars, events because, well, the guy was there. I just wish he hadn't thrown out all those old gramophones that he had in the attic. That happened around 1950. Those things would be worth a lot of money these days anyway. To me, that's way better than reading about something or seeing it on tv. There is nothing like the personal perspective which brings me to music. Some of the best books I've ever read are oral histories, collections of quotes and recollections and reminisces from people who were there at the time. Again, nothing like the personal touch. This is why, when I had a chance to talk to someone who was right in the middle of the whole Madchester thing in Manchester, England in the late 80s and early 90s, studies someone whose brain cells are still intact, I thought, awesome, let's do this. This is part two of an oral history of Manchester. This is the ongoing history of new music. The podcast edition with alan Cross from 1990. Commercial reign from the Inspiral Carpets, one of the bands that formed the Holy Trinity of Manchester, that crazy and wildly popular scene in Manchester, England that flourished in the late 80s and early 90s. This was music that set the stage for much of the British indie music that was to come for the next 15 years. In fact, we're still feeling the impact of Manchester today. Hello again, I'm Alan Cross and this is part two of an oral history of that whole thing. And our storyteller is Gaz Whelan, the former drummer for the Happy Mondays. Now along with the Carpets and the Stone Roses, the Mondays exemplified what Madchester was all about. And Gaz had a very unique perspective on what actually happened as things peaked and then crashed. On part one, we heard about the rise of this new generation of bands, and for the longest time in the early 90s, it looked like the party would never end. It did. Of Course. And the Mondays had to take some of the blame. Okay, a lot of the blame. Let's pick it up. Just as the Mondays were writing the massive success of their Pills, Thrills and Bellyaches album through 1991, so pills and Thrills and Bellyaches comes out. Guys are. That's a huge sensation at home. An international sensation. Factory Records is flying high. But like every other band on Factory Records, you never really had a contract with them.

[Gaz Whelan]

Apparently we did, though. We do remember it. But apparently we did have some sort of contract with him. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we did have a contract and I think you ordered it because when London. But I think it's one of them kind of Factory record, you know, Tony. We didn't have a contract, but I think. I think we did. Yeah, I remember signing something. I signed something. No, we did. We had a concert. But it was. They would. They were pretty. They were. They'd let us do what we want. They were great. Well, yeah.

[Alan Cross]

They let you do what?

[Gaz Whelan]

And Tony loved it. Everyone at Fatiha hated us. Apart from Tony loved us. Everyone hated us. Oh, actually, no, not everyone, actually. A couple. A couple of people like to there. But for the most part, the other bands and the other managers and the other people didn't really. Didn't really take to us.

[Alan Cross]

Well. Well, you drove.

[Gaz Whelan]

You.

[Alan Cross]

You broke the company.

[Gaz Whelan]

No, we didn't. That's another myth. We didn't. That was New Order for a couple of years. They owed us a lot of money. In fact, he ordered us a lot of money. We spent quite a bit in Barbados, but not as much as. I think we spent half a million it cost altogether. But it wasn't. That didn't break them. They. Bad management broken. And they actually after that, when they. When they disbanded, when. When they went under, they owed us a lot of money. Well, then we owed such.

[Alan Cross]

Okay, Tony wasn't. Yeah, well, we'll talk about that in a second. But. But Tony wasn't the greatest businessman.

[Gaz Whelan]

He was.

[Alan Cross]

He was an artist and a supporter of the artist more than.

[Gaz Whelan]

He's rude. But he wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He wasn't. He was a great. You know, he was a great guy. Tony was a bit of a. Me and Sean become really good friends of Tony. Do what you doing say what you say Go where you. Sounds good to me.

[Alan Cross]

The Happy Mondays in loose fits from their 1990 album Pills and Thrills and Bellyaches. All right, you're gonna want to hear these next stories from Monday's drummer, Gaz Whelan. It was finally time to make a follow up album. It didn't go well at all. When you went to Barbados and you went to Eddie Grant's studio, how many cars were destroyed?

[Gaz Whelan]

Well, I don't know. It was.

[Alan Cross]

You don't know.

[Gaz Whelan]

The roads are really bad. But they were. But it was about. I think it was about. I thought it was nine, but then someone told me it was more. But it was. We had a lot of time in our hands. It was. We was. If you know Barbados, all the tourist side is on. Is on. Is on the.

[Alan Cross]

It's on the west side.

[Gaz Whelan]

On the west side because obviously because of the water. Because the Caribbean and we were on the east side. Eddy Grand Studio was a great studio.

[Alan Cross]

It's down on the Southeast, isn't it?

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you see it's Atlantic. So it's not the. I think it's Atlantic, yeah. Is it? Yeah. So it's really windy. So. So there's no tourists there. So it's local. So we were. Roads aren't done in the tourist area. And we, we, we had. It was January, so it'd been bleak in England and we had it. We had a pretty good time there. It was. We had some. The first night we arrived we stayed at this place called Sam Lord's Castle.

[Alan Cross]

I know exactly where you're talking about. On the east coast.

[Gaz Whelan]

On the east coast. We got kicked out.

[Alan Cross]

I can't believe that they would even take your reservation.

[Gaz Whelan]

It was great. It was. We got. I mean the night we arrived there, we'd had a long flight and they greet us with rumors. Bad mistake. And then we. There was some cabaret band on, never forgetting they were called Spice or the Spice Boy, something mad like that. And we all went to bed. PD our keyboard player who was crazy to say the least. Should we go up for breakfast early Was having breakfast and we see him getting escorted by the police. And he got so annoyed that I hated the cabaret band that he got upstage and attacked one of them.

[Alan Cross]

That's how it all started.

[Gaz Whelan]

So that's how it all started. And then it just went down from there. But it was, it was. You know, it was. I had a good time there. I enjoyed it. I did. I didn't get. Because when you play drums you're in the studio the first week yourself so you get to know the producer. You get, you know, and you hang around and I used to sit in the studio all the time anyway to go through to. I was the boring one who liked to, you know, with the Music and stuff. Like it'd be like, like he is. We always know. But so I didn't get involved in all that, you know, I mean I was, you know, I was drinking a lot of, a lot of local rum, I was self medicating with a lot of local herb and that was it. I was, you know, and I was happy. Vanessa, my wife came over and she stayed with us and she was there as all our families came over. We had a party with about 30 people at one point. So she came over and we ended up renting a house just outside the studio. We had our, we had our own time so we were great. So it was. I just gotta say the same. The sec. The first night I was in the studio, I finished playing drums. Was in about one o' clock in the morning and I was driving back, I was looking for a little bar and the guy said, oh, there's a little bar, it's like a shack. There's a little bar here. So he parks the car so I'll go with him. So we sat the bar and it's literally a shack and I'm drinking and must have been about there about two or three hours, getting the early hours. Then all of a sudden we heard this noise and this car comes through the front bit of the bar. Like it's not a proper wood. The wood just jumps up in this car, all right. And everyone jumps up and then Sean walks. He said, I heard you was here. The guy drove into the bar, drove right into the bar. Literally. I remember being here and he. It must have come, it came three foot into the bar. And the guy only was an ex, ex cricket, West Indian cricket who had a bit of money. So we said, oh, so we'll pay for it, it's fine, it's fine. And the guy was over, said yeah, they from the studio, we'll pay for it. You know, it's off. It was fine but the car actually came through.

[Alan Cross]

So did that get built back to factory or recoup from you?

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah, we your bands pay for everything. The band are paying for everything, don't they? In fact we don't. I don't believe we bankrupt. I think they used. I don't think, I don't think we did. I really don't think we did.

[Alan Cross]

I do remember seeing Bez with his arm in some kind of.

[Gaz Whelan]

He was medical device. Oh, with Bez, nothing. Bez always wants to best want to always prove something. And he got off in it. He had a Jeep, a Jeep without a, you know, the Proper kind of Jeep. And he went off into the marshlands and where the. Where this. Where the. Where the. The studio was, there's a pool. And as you saw, the pool was looking out one day and there's this marshland, this jeep upside down. And he was crushed. He turned upside down. He was crushed. And he had all these pins in his arm. And then two days, about two weeks after, he was, you know, trying to jet ski in the old, you know, and broke it again. And we said to the guy, you know, but he was. I mean, but he must have been about a week in. And I'm in the studio, and the guy, Mark, I think he was called, he worked with Chris, a guy from New York, said, you've got to go up to the. To the pool and have a look. I knew they were spending. Allowed to spend a lot of time in the local crack density because we, obviously, we knew about it. And he said, go up to the. The pool. And I went up to the pool and they turned the sun. The other sun loungers, you call them sun lounges, sunbeds, you know, you have around the pool, they turned and they made a crack then out of it, stacked up into a crack there. And I just thought. I was like, oh, I just. I was. I just thought it was hilarious. Okay.

[Alan Cross]

So at some point, we knew he was ending.

[Gaz Whelan]

We knew he was gonna come. Well, that's.

[Alan Cross]

That's what I was just gonna say. You know, when you get to that level of goofiness. Yeah, we knew you knew that. Okay, we've peaked.

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah.

[Alan Cross]

And now we're just milking it.

[Gaz Whelan]

Oh, we knew. We knew. I think. But from. From that very first top of the pots thing, we thought we were milking it every week. We thought, that's it. It's gonna go any second. Let's just milk it. Whereas if you've been smart, you don't have to do that. And you could.

[Alan Cross]

Happy Monday is with a single called Judge Fudge that helped bridge the gap between pills, thrills, bellyaches, and whatever came next. And I can tell you that what came next was a disaster. Hold on. This program is sponsored by BetterHelp. When it comes to offering advice, everyone seems to have an opinion on everything. Need a better start to the day? Dunk your face in a bowl of ice cubes at 4am Eat this, don't eat that. Walk more. Start a journal. Digital detoxes. Everyone seems to have the answer to better mental health and wellness. Okay, fine. But what will really work for you? Where can you turn to get personalized information and assistance when it comes to you. This can be confusing unless you turn to BetterHelp. There is nothing like being able to talk to a real person about your challenges. Someone who can help you organize your thoughts so you can start making positive changes in your life. Therapy still carries a stigma with some people, but it shouldn't. Look, you take care of your physical health, right? Your mental health requires the same attention when it comes to things like learning positive coping skills, how to set boundaries, and how to be a better you for you. With over 30,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp is the planet's largest online therapy platform. 5 million people have signed on. There are 1.7 million online reviews with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5. It's super convenient too. Start a session with a click anytime, anywhere, and you can Switch therapists anytime BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a wide and diverse range of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com ongoing today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelpH. E l-p.com ongoing this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Feeling lost? Stressed out? Anxious? Welcome to the club. The 24 hour news cycle and doom scrolling and the constant bombardment of information from all directions affect all of us. Yet we're expected to hold it all together. Something that's easier said than done. Men have this thing too, that we're supposed to be strong and steady performers and providers. And you know what? A lot of us do. We just push it down into that black ball inside of us because, well, that's what guys do. We're tough, right? But that leads to depression and burnout and other, shall we say, unhealthy activities as we try to cope. Here's the truth. It's okay to admit that you're struggling and that you need someone to talk to. Doing something about your mental health takes strength. And once you begin to open up and admit all the burdens that you're carrying around, you can work on being the best you can be for yourself, your loved ones, and everyone around you. Now, trust me on this. Once you start talking about the things stuffed into your black ball, the whole universe begins to open up. BetterHelp is there for you. With more than 35,000 therapists available, BetterHelp is the largest online therapy platform. It has an App store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on 1.7 million reviews from clients all over the world. It's so easy and convenient, too. An online session starts with the click of a button at any time of day or night, so you can fit therapy into your busy schedule, learn how to set boundaries, deal with anxiety, and learn positive coping skills. And you can switch therapists anytime. There should never be any stigma around mental health. You take care of your physical health, right? So why should your mental health be any different? As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of experience. Guys, talk it out with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com ongoing today and get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com ongoing the Disney Hulu HBO Max Bundle plan starting at just $16.99 a month. Catch Limitless live better now season one with Chris Hemsworth on Disney.

[Gaz Whelan]

We've got a lot of work to do.

[Alan Cross]

Alien Earth on Hulu. This Ship Collected Monsters and Final Destination Bloodlines on HBO Max.

[Gaz Whelan]

Death is coming for our family.

[Alan Cross]

The Disney Hulu HBO Max Bundle planned starting at $16.99 a month. All these and more streaming soon. Visit Disney Hulu HBOMaxBundle.com for details. This is part two of an oral history of the Manchester period in England. Our guide is Happy Mondays drummer Gaz Wieland. And we're at the point where the party starts to go terribly, terribly wrong. But it wasn't just you. I mean, by this time the Roses had gotten to their whole Silvertone thing and they were unable to get anything together. Yeah, the Inspiral Carpets had gone past their best day. The Charlatans were still hanging around, although they were going to have keyboard player problems.

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah, yeah. Charlatans have done well, actually. Still doing well.

[Alan Cross]

They're still together.

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah, sure.

[Alan Cross]

And then, you know, Noel Gallagher comes out of nowhere eventually.

[Gaz Whelan]

I remember, yeah, I remember him.

[Alan Cross]

Do you remember him playing rodeoing for the.

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah, I remember him well. Yeah, I remember. I remember. Yeah, I do remember it well. I was gonna send something, but I knew he'll get. I've never said it to him and he'll get really upset if he ever said it. But yeah, I remember I did an interview, a radio interview and I went back into the ascender downstairs that he was and he'd fallen out with Sean because Sean had some word J spirals but I hadn't cuz I knew Clint, Clint was okay and me and kind of knew Noel through him and, and we got talk about Noel said, oh, it was great interview and having a Few drinks. He said, if you ever need anyone to do your drums, I'll do it. But I've never. Whenever I see him now, he'll know. You can see. When we're in company on Monday, I'll say in front of everybody. But, you know, he's not done bad, has he? No, he's.

[Alan Cross]

He's okay.

[Gaz Whelan]

He's done ok.

[Alan Cross]

The Charlatans, a band from the original Manchester era who, despite all the odds, are still together. Back to Gas Whelan. Here's the real story of the album that helped bring down Factory Records.

[Gaz Whelan]

So let's.

[Alan Cross]

So we.

[Gaz Whelan]

You come back.

[Alan Cross]

Back to Factory Records with no vocals on this new record.

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah. No vocals. Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Cross]

Because Sean couldn't be our store. It just didn't work.

[Gaz Whelan]

But that wasn't unusual, that. You know. That wasn't unusual. We'd write albums and he didn't. And then we'd do the music. We'd have like 10 songs and he didn't have the lyrics for him. So that wasn't unusual, you know. It wasn't. It. Excuse me. It wasn't. He didn't. I think he'd done one song, so that wasn't very usual. That was unusual. But he wasn't unusual because he'd always do the lyrics later. He never got involved in the music ever. Never got involved in the music whatsoever. He just did the lyrics and he always did them later. So he wasn't so much of a. A concern.

[Alan Cross]

So the yes Please album doesn't really work.

[Gaz Whelan]

You know what it's. It's best favorite album. It's hard since it's been like, you know, it's about. Without trying to sound grand. It's a bit like Exile, Main street now. Reviews about People. It actually got good reviews. He went to number three. It did. Okay. It's out of there. I think there's 10 songs in it. There's six that are good. I think there's four that. That really let it down as it's more. My Stinky Finger is a great tune.

[Alan Cross]

Judge Fudge from that record.

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah. Judge Fudge. I don't know. I don't remember. That was on that. Judge Fudge is one of my favorite Monday songs, actually. Judge footage. I don't know if that's on the album. I'm not sure. But there's a cut on Loose Push. There's a couple of great tunes on it, but. But it wasn't. It didn't. It wasn't. It wasn't an album. It was a collection of you know, put together songs. I think, you know, it wasn't recorded.

[Alan Cross]

By a bunch of people wrecking cars, doing crack.

[Gaz Whelan]

Well, that was, that was normal, you know, that was, it was just different. You know, I think Bummed was the was the Ecstasy album, Pills and Fruits was everything was the la everything, whatever. You can get all of an LA album and then that was, was herb and whatever, you know, they were doing. Yeah, we're Stinking Thinkin Stinkin Thinkin comes from somewhere.

[Alan Cross]

The Happy Mondays in Stinkin Thinkin from the yes Please album, the record that pretty much marked the end of whatever Manchester was. We'll sift through the debris in just a second. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Ebglis. After an initial dosing phase, about 4 in 10 people taking EVGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. EBGLIS Lebricizumab LBKZ, a 250mg injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Ebglis. Before starting Epglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection searching for real relief. Ask your doctor about eglis and visit epglis.lilly.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979.

[Gaz Whelan]

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[Alan Cross]

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[Gaz Whelan]

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[Alan Cross]

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[Gaz Whelan]

In the 70s, four young women were found dead. For nearly 50 years, their cases went cold.

[Alan Cross]

I'm Nancy Hickst, a senior crime reporter for Global News.

[Gaz Whelan]

In the season finale of Crime Beat.

[Alan Cross]

I share how investigators uncovered shocking evidence of a serial killer and hear exclusive interviews with the killer's family.

[Gaz Whelan]

Listen to the full season of Crime Beat early and ad free on Amazon.

[Alan Cross]

Music by asking Alexa to play the podcast Crime Beat. This is an oral history of Madchester, a look at that time in Manchester, England, when it seemed that the city was the center of some strange, wonderful musical universe. Here's more from Gaz Whelan of the Happy Mondays. So Manchester, the Manchester thing comes to an end somewhere around. What do you figure, 92, 93.

[Gaz Whelan]

I think we stopped in 93. Yeah. So it was only 93, maybe. Yeah.

[Alan Cross]

Because it had burned very brightly, very hard for about four years.

[Gaz Whelan]

That's usual.

[Alan Cross]

That's about right. I remember being on this side of the Atlantic and looking forward to the import records that would come out every Wednesday.

[Gaz Whelan]

Oh, is that what I did? All right.

[Alan Cross]

And, you know, it seemed that every week there was a band or a song that was either from Manchester or wanted to be from Manchester. And it was just an absolutely glorious time because of all these. These great records that were coming out and. But then suddenly it dries up because people are. I mean, the bands burn out, people lose interest in it and they move on to the next.

[Gaz Whelan]

Something happens. Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Cross]

And then there's a bit of a lull and then Britpop comes along. But Britpop's foundations were essentially Manchester.

[Gaz Whelan]

Well, Manchester's foundations are originally Northern soul and stuff. And I think there's a. I think it's bizarre. Even now, it's still. It kind of. It's not left. Every TV show, every comedy show in the uk, every. If you want to portray any musician, if it's always set in Manchester and everything's set in Manchester. Everything in the uk. Every TV program about, you know. Yeah.

[Alan Cross]

Royal Family.

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah. Everything. And then. What's that one? That. Shameless and all. It's all these. No. And it's kind of. They've got that stereotypical Mancunian now. So, you know, and then obviously since Oasis. But his bands mans has always been. I don't know why, man has been this great musical set. You know, bands from, you know, from the Bee Gees to, you know, you know, the guy, you know, the singer of Davy Jones, the Monkeys, you know, the singer, the Monkeys of some mansion, you know, to, you know, the guy across the Seals and Nash, you know, Graham Nash is a man, you know. I don't know, it's, it's, it's right across the board. I don't know why Britain, there's loads of bands. There's just loads. There's loads. Oasis, Buzzcocks, I Fall, James Godly and Cream. Badly Drawn Boy, Elbow, you know, John Mayo star, Sailor Verve. Phil Linnett. Grew up in Manchester. Smith's New Order, Simply Red Ollie's, you know, it goes on and on and there's just bands and bands and Ban.

[Alan Cross]

He lives under a water bow Nobody can see him.

[Gaz Whelan]

Nobody can ever hear him come.

[Alan Cross]

Well, things have changed a little bit now too, because Manchester has been gentrified. You know, you've got a. I mean, I've seen. I've never been, but I've seen pictures of the, you know, glorious buildings and great places. You know, the student population has exploded and it looks like a really cool place to be.

[Gaz Whelan]

Well, it's always had. It's got. It's got three universities. Manchester, Manchester Met and Salford. It's had the biggest gay community outside London, biggest student population in Europe. So it's just got all these things coming together. It's now become a very European, say it's the capital of the north, it's the London of the North. So it's kind of. It's changed, the grittiness has gone, but it's still, you know, it's not. You have to go far to find it.

[Alan Cross]

You've got Manchester United, Manchester City. You put the two rosters together and you have a payroll that's somewhere around $850 million between the two teams. That's not a poor city.

[Gaz Whelan]

Oh, no, no, it's. It's got money, it's got. But it's. But it's a very. It's a very left wing, working class city. Very, you know, like. It's a very, very. It's like Mason. Liverpool always has, but kind of. Liverpool kind of got left behind, didn't it? Yeah, well, it's like age of industry is gone now, isn't it? You know, but it's in England a lot of things are based on working class people. It's based around especially Manchester. When we grew up, it was. There's three things. It's the only trinity. It's music, it's football and it's fashion. Them three things are really important, none more important than the other. And they go together. They go together.

[Alan Cross]

Explain to me the social significance of following either City or United.

[Gaz Whelan]

Well, he's a City fan. I mean, United fan. It's different. It's. There's no significance to it now. It was areas, so western. North Manchester was mainly United. South and east was City. United was originally the Catholic team. City was the person team. City initially was a rich club. United was the working man's club to sell by the trade unions. But that doesn't. It's not. That's not the case now, you know, so it's not. It's certainly not the case now. So there's no really significance. But there's a. Isn't it. It's just. It's an identity. I don't. I don't know what the difference is. But with the cities, it's not just about your football team. You can never change your team. It's about your football team. Says everything about what you're about. But times have changed. Money, the last 10 years, it's all kind of got, you know, lost in the.

[Alan Cross]

Well, you've got an American owning one and then a guy from what, Dubai or United Arab Emirates or on the.

[Gaz Whelan]

Other probably going to buy out as well. Yeah. Soon. Yeah. So I don't. But it's kind of changed anyway. But that's. That's how it used to be.

[Alan Cross]

So the Mondays had to get back together a couple of times for tax reasons.

[Gaz Whelan]

No, that was. That was just Sean saying that to kind of ever as a bit of a. A safety net in case it all went pear shaped. Just so it looked like we. The thing about. It's kind of like not trying to look like we needed to get back all we wanted to. Sean's got this finger. He doesn't like to enjoy it. If he looks like he's enjoying it, it's not. That's a real Manchester thing as well. You gotta like. You're not enjoying. If you're enjoying. It's not very cool, you know, so it's that kind of. It's a very English thing as well in it, but especially a very Manchester thing. So it's like that was. The kind of thing is, oh God, I've got to do it. But it wasn't it wasn't for tax reasons. No.

[Alan Cross]

So how many times did you get back here?

[Gaz Whelan]

Only the ones. We never really split up after that. We just. We just took a break. It was only really the ones.

[Alan Cross]

And now you're done with them?

[Gaz Whelan]

Yeah, me and Bez, I don't know if we did a Australia last year. And I started dipping mafia was like. I knew I had to leave one to concentrate on the other. And it got to the point where Sean, you know, was cutting the set. So he wanted to do 20 minutes. Didn't hate doing it. If you hate doing it, you can't.

[Alan Cross]

Do a 20 minute set.

[Gaz Whelan]

I know you can, you know. And. Yeah, and we said lining festivals where they want you to do an hour and a half and we're doing like 50 minutes and we'd go off and we'd play for two and he was. And we had to pay him to go in the studio to do recordings and we was doing a new album which was sounding great when the new tunes and. No, it really wasn't sounding as good as the early stuff. Really fresh. And he wouldn't pay me to come in the studio. What do you mean, pay you to come in the studio? You know, so. But he was. I think he'd got to the point where he just doing what he wanted to do with solo stuff and we all. I watched to do this. So I think, you know, it was all kind of. We'd all had enough of each other.

[Alan Cross]

The Happy Mondays with their version of Thin Lizzy's the Boys Are Back in Town. Now, if you listen carefully, you'll see it's the same song. It is a cover. Here are some final comments about Mad Chester from Happy Monday's drummer Gaz Whelan.

[Gaz Whelan]

No. Yeah. No, because that time in Manchester, it was bizarre because it was. I'd say, what, the first time ever you'd be in a club and you'd hear people would come up from London, you know, get co. And people don't travel, I mean, for years here to travel three hours, it's nothing. But no one travels, certainly not out of London. No one travels to the provincial cities in London. He'd go in, there would be coaches and train stations, people from London that you'd give them Saturday time or even Fridays in Piccadilly station in Manchester in like lunchtime, all these Londoners piling off to go, you know, and staying in Manchester for the weekend. And it was mad and it just got silly, you know, and. And I remember it. Oh, I remember, you know, I was never the, you know, Bez still to this day is just. He's just. It's wild, you know, and he always will be. You know, I had me moments. But, you know, I also liked, you know, I liked a bit of clarity. I like to know what was going on. You know, someone had to kind of have their head together when we were doing. When we were doing stuff. I mean, don't get me wrong, I wasn't, you know, I was no page boy.

[Alan Cross]

Well, you were no Sean.

[Gaz Whelan]

No, but. No, no, no, but, you know. No, it wasn't. No, Sean was kind of. Don't know why. Sean. Yeah, it's shy. Sean's shy. So that's why he did it, you know, he was shy, basically. And we were kind of all kind of insecure. It's a class thing in England. It's a working class thing. You don't get above your station. It's really hard to explain, but it's kind of like if you work in class and you. And you make something or you do something, you know, you got to know. You always know your place. It's strange. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. And we all subscribe to it, you know, If I got an airplane and the guy, the pilot says we're gonna fly, I'm flying back in. He's got a Manchester accent. I might get me off this plane, you know. I don't. But if he's called Giles and he speaks from Roxbury drafting, I feel okay, you know.

[Alan Cross]

And that's the way it was during the Manchester era. Tactical production for this one was by Rob Johnston and Mike Sullivan. Thanks to gas. I'm Alan Cross.

[Gaz Whelan]

We are in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.

[Alan Cross]

Thursdays on the History Channel. It's super hot. 10 competitors will be tested like never before.

[Gaz Whelan]

The great crew desert South Africa.

[Alan Cross]

This is a place to be feared in a lowe's hottest season ever.

[Gaz Whelan]

This is dry, dry, dry. If I was going to get a.

[Alan Cross]

Chance to prove what I can do.

[Gaz Whelan]

This is it alone.

[Alan Cross]

All new Thursdays on History Stream and stack tv.