Ep. 144 Wagner's Lohengrin

Summary

Opera for Everyone: Ep. 144 Wagner's Lohengrin

Original Air Date: July 15, 2026
Host: Pat Wright
Co-Hosts: Kathleen Vanderwil, Grant
Podcast Description: Making opera understandable, accessible, and enjoyable for all.

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Episode Overview

This episode spotlights Richard Wagner's Lohengrin, a cornerstone of the romantic operatic repertoire and Wagner's bridge between traditional opera and his later "music dramas." The trio—Pat, Kathleen, and Grant—unpack the opera's mythic roots, plot progression, characters, musical highlights, and enduring cultural impact, all while keeping things lively with banter and insightful commentary. Throughout, Lohengrin's signature blend of romance, mysticism, nationalism, and fairy tale logic is explored, making sense of its enduring appeal and complexity.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Wagner's Place in Opera and the "Music Drama" (00:38–01:27)

• Gesamtkunstwerk: Wagner’s concept of a “total work of art,” integrating music, drama, and visual elements.
• Musical Form: Lohengrin is “through composed”—not divided into conventional arias and duets; it flows as a continuous musical narrative.
• Transition: The opera straddles high Romanticism and Wagner’s more radical later works.

2. Legend and Myth: The Holy Grail and Arthurian Roots (01:27–04:10)

• Grail Stories: Grant explains the evolution of Grail myths and how Wagner draws from the Germanic tradition of Grail guardianship.
  • The Grail bestows “perpetual youth and eternal life,” creating mystically powerful knights bound by strict conditions.
  • Quote (03:10, Grant): “The Grail guardians can be incredibly old, and they are mystically and divinely powerful … bound by restrictions, as is common in fairy tales.”

3. Prelude and Wagner's Musical Magic (04:10–10:27)

• The prelude musically embodies the “glory of the Grail.”
  • Pat: “Shimmering is always the word that’s used … It’s a motivator, it is an influence…meant to imagine the glory of the Grail.” (04:51)
• Discussion about the lush Romantic sound and why this is among Wagner's most beloved operas.

4. Setting and Political Undercurrents (12:11–19:17)

• Location: Medieval Brabant, a region now in Belgium, under the loose rule of the Holy Roman Empire.
  • Kathleen notes the “tension between the growing Christian order and lingering paganism in government.”
• Succession Crisis: Elsa is accused of murdering her brother, the rightful duke, with Friedrich von Telramund as her accuser, spurred on by his ambitious wife Ortrud.

5. Nationalism and Historical Context (16:16–17:51)

• Wagner's deep involvement in 19th-century German nationalism colors the opera's tone and themes.
  • Grant contextualizes the "Germany" of the opera as a cultural ideal rather than historical fact.

6. The King, Justice, and Trial by Combat (17:51–31:04)

• King Henry the Fowler: Historical figure, stands in as an arbitrator but is primarily self-interested—he’s recruiting soldiers for a war against the Hungarians.
• Elsa’s Ordeal: To defend herself, Elsa requests a champion via trial by combat, invoking “the ordeal” as divine judgment.
  • Grant’s historical aside about judicial duels and their logic: “Most of what’s happening in a trial by ordeal is … who cares more?” (28:20)
• Elsa prays for help; Lohengrin’s miraculous swan-drawn arrival fulfills her vision.

7. Lohengrin’s Arrival and the Swan Motif (31:04–34:33)

• Iconic Entrance: A mysterious knight in shining armor arrives, drawn by a swan—contextualized as both chivalric and mystic.
  • Kathleen: “People in this time period were not clean … The shining is important here. This is someone protected by God.” (33:52)
• Lohengrin immediately pledges to defend and marry Elsa on one strict condition: she must never ask his name.

8. Fairy Tale Logic and the Bargain (38:11–41:57)

• The “don’t ask my name” motif is compared to stories like Cupid and Psyche or Orpheus and Eurydice, emphasizing arbitrary fairyland bargains that inevitably get broken.
  • “These bargains almost always don’t work out … what is human about us is our curiosity and our failings.” (39:14, Kathleen)

9. First Act Finale: Mercy and Exile (47:34–51:50)

• Lohengrin defeats Telramund in combat, but spares his life to offer repentance, positioning himself as the epitome of Christian mercy.
  • Grant: “Through God’s power and I spare it—that you might repent, that you might be cleansed of your sin.” (48:57)

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Deep Dive: Act II – Schemes, Paganism, and Ambition (51:50–66:10)

1. Ortrud and Friedrich: Broken Ambition and Pagan Power

• Their duet illustrates tension and ambition; Ortrud reveals herself as a witch and crafts a plot to manipulate Elsa, seeking to exploit the mysterious condition on Lohengrin.
• The podcast draws parallels to Lady Macbeth and fairy-tale villainesses.
  • Quote (54:52, Kathleen): “I am a pagan witch, and I know … my bloodline is destined to keep ruling.”
• Wagner’s dualities: Pagan vs. Christian, “muscular Christianity” vs. older beliefs, institutional power vs. individual virtue.

2. Faith, Doubt, and the Logic of Fairy Tales (57:22–61:51)

• Hosts debate the tension between necessary trust/faith and the dangers of blind faith in rulers and miracles, noting Wagner’s complex relationship with both Christian and pagan ideals.

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Act II Progression and Wedding Prelude (74:05–99:10)

1. Ortrud’s Manipulation and Elsa’s Innocence (73:45–75:13)

• Ortrud sows seeds of doubt about Lohengrin’s identity.
• Elsa remains steadfast in her trust, despite Ortrud’s logical “warnings.”
• Kathleen: “If we were in the real world, maybe Ortrud would be doing her a solid here. But the logic of the fairy tale … goes against what Ortrud is trying to say.” (74:30)

2. Wedding Announcements and National Fervor

• The herald proclaims Lohengrin as “Protector of Brabant,” yet Lohengrin declines the title of duke, furthering his air of mystery.
• Tension grows between political order, martial glory, and personal desire.
• Controversy over rallying troops for a war with distant Hungarians, reflecting Wagner’s embedding of 19th-century political anxieties in mythic drama.

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Act III: Faith Tested and the “Bridal Chorus” (98:29–107:30)

1. “Here Comes the Bride” Origins (98:42–99:10)

• The world-famous Bridal Chorus—now a wedding staple—actually introduces the darkest act, not a happy marital scene as commonly assumed.

2. The Testing of Faith and The Secret is Broken

• In the bridal chamber, Elsa, haunted by Ortrud’s manipulation and her own uncertainty, asks Lohengrin the forbidden question of his name.
  • Pat: “He tries so hard to talk her out of it, unsuccessfully … the more she wants to know.” (105:19)
• Kathleen examines the trope’s gendered implications but reframes Elsa’s curiosity as fundamentally human.

3. Catastrophe and Revelation

• Friedrich and accomplices burst in, attack Lohengrin, who is aided by Elsa handing him his sword—an action rich in symbolic complexity.
• The couple's brief marital union unravels spectacularly.

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Finale: Secrets Revealed, Sorrow, and the Fairy-Tale Ending (107:30–118:54)

1. Lohengrin’s “Grail Narrative” and Laws of the Grail (108:59–112:30)

• Lohengrin’s identity is revealed: he is the son of Parsifal, a knight of the Grail, compelled to anonymity and capable of superhuman acts—only as long as his bargain remains intact.

2. Elsa’s Full Loss and Operatic Tragedy

• Because Elsa broke trust, Lohengrin must leave, the spell is broken, and her brother—transformed back from a swan—is restored as Duke.
• Ortrud’s witchcraft is exposed; she is vanquished (variously drowned or falls, depending on production).
• Lohengrin departs in a boat drawn by a dove—symbolizing the Holy Spirit—while Elsa dies of grief.
  • “Her last words … ‘mine husband, my husband.’” (117:31, Pat)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Wagner’s music:
  Grant (10:29): “This music is so pretty. I really like the sound that this opera makes ... Isn't the music fantastic?”
• On trial by combat:
  Grant (28:20): “Most of what's happening in a trial by ordeal is … who cares more?”
• On the enigma of identity:
  Kathleen (39:14): “These bargains almost always don't work out and end badly for the human who's engaged with them … our curiosity and our failings.”
• On pagan vs. Christian themes:
  Grant (58:43): "The figure of Lohengrin ... he is an ubermensch figure … the point of this is the opposite of something like Hamilton, where the point is that goodness is more important than greatness."
• On famous music:
  Grant (98:42): “Perhaps the most famous bit of music from any opera ... the music that is commonly used in Western culture ... as ‘Here Comes the Bride.’”

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Timestamps: Key Segments & Themes

• Wagner’s Gesamtkunstwerk and Lohengrin’s Place: 00:38–04:10
• Grail Lore and Mythic Roots: 01:46–04:10
• Musical Prelude and the Grail’s Power: 04:10–10:27
• Setting, Succession Crisis, and Political Themes: 12:11–19:17
• Trial by Combat and Lohengrin's Arrival: 29:10–34:33
• Fairy Tale Rules and the Taboo Question: 38:11–41:57
• Act II: Ortrud’s Plotting and Faith: 51:50–66:10
• Elsa’s Doubts and Ortrud’s Manipulations: 73:45–75:13
• Bridal Chorus and Wedding Night: 98:29–102:34
• Elsa’s Question, Downfall, and Finale: 102:34–118:54

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Tone & Style

The hosts blend academic rigor with playful humor (“You go to opera jail”; 10:27), accessible explanations, and a knack for storytelling that demystifies Wagner’s sometimes intimidating world—making it truly “Opera for Everyone.” There is frequent referencing of other literature, history, and operatic tropes, making the discussion both rich and approachable.

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Final Reflections

Pat, Kathleen, and Grant close on thoughts about the logic of fairy tales, the limits of faith, and the human cost of divine bargains: Elsa’s tragic fate is both inevitable and deeply moving. The anticipation for Wagner's Parsifal (the sequel of sorts) is palpable.

Pat: “I have had a delightful time with the both of you talking about Wagner’s Lohengrin.” (119:07)

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For a deeper dive into Wagner, myth, musical innovation, or the fascinating crossroads of politics and fairy tales—this episode is the perfect place to start.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to another episode of Opera for Everyone. I am your host, Pat Wright, and I am joined by two of the favorites on Opera for Everyone, Kathleen Vanderwil.

[C]

Hi, guys. Glad to be called a favorite. Yeah.

[B]

And Grant.

[A]

Hi, guys. Confused to be called favorite.

[B]

Trust me, Trust me. Well, we're back visiting another Wagner opera.

[C]

Yes, we have Lohengrin today.

[B]

Lohengrin. Now, this one follows Tannhauser in the sequence of operas that Wagner created. A lot of commentators will say that this opera's got a foot on each side of romantic and then what becomes the signature sort of opera. Music drama. That's what Wagner called it. It's a kind of through composed musical presentation. We call it all opera. But Wagner was very, very sure he wanted to call these Gesamtkunstwerk, the total work of art, a music drama. And it has to do with not following a lot of the same requirements for duets and arias in certain numbers and choral pieces in certain places. He's very much interested in the drama of the story.

[C]

And this is a Grail quest story, an Arthurian knight story, and is the first time that I am seeing Wagner interested in that, but not the last time, certainly. So do we want to talk a little bit about the origins here?

[B]

Oh, yes. Over to you, Grant.

[A]

So the series of myths and legends and stories that have gathered around the Holy Grail is kind of truly bewildering, both in terms of how widely varied the subject matter is, and let's just say a lot of retcons. Hard to put all of it into a single cohesive narrative because everybody's got their own idea of what the Grail is and how it works. So on the simplest level, the Holy Grail is this mystical artifact where Jesus is on the cross and he is bleeding from a wound caused by a spear, and some of the blood is collected in the grail, a little chalice cup, and this chalice and indeed the spear become endowed with a certain amount of mystical, magical, divine power. This fundamental kernel then gets developed into a lot of different things. And so one of the ideas is that Joseph of Arimathea, the fellow who lent his tomb to Jesus, ends up starting a line of people who guard and protect this set of sacred relics. And a lot of things then grow up out of that. The most famous in the English speaking world being King Arthur's knights, searching for the Holy Grail and then eventually finding it guarded by its guardians in a weird sort of otherworldly realm where all is not right and must be made right by the virtue of the knight. Who that knight is changes depending on who you ask, and that's the. The version that's most familiar to the English speaking world. Wagner is drawing on a set of traditions that are focused on the Grail guardians, the knights who are guarding the Grail themselves and the stories of what it is that they do to protect the Grail, the magical abilities that are conferred upon them. In the German mythos, and particularly how Wagner describes it, the Grail bestows perpetual youth and eternal life. And as a result, these Grail guardians can be incredibly old. And they are mystically and divinely powerful and they go out on quests and do things and well, they are. They are bound by restrictions, as is common in fairy tales. And we'll get to some of those a little later.

[B]

That's a wonderful setup for what I'd like us to hear first. Not a single word yet. There is an exquisite prelude. Don't call it an overture, but this prelude starts off. We heard just a little snatch of it before we all joined in to speak about this with slow, quiet. Shimmering is always the word that's used. Shimmering. Music slowly builds. Slowly builds. And then we get essentially the glory of the Grail being represented musically. We don't ever see the Grail in this opera, but it is in the background the whole time. It is a motivator, it is an influence. And then after the long, powerful piece of music where we're meant to imagine the glory of the Grail, the. It will become quieter, stiller, shimmering once more. And honestly, that's a little like what happens with Lohengrin here in this story. So we'll pick up with the exciting part and we'll be back after we all calm down.

[A]

Sa.

[C]

Sam.

[A]

Sa.

[C]

Sam.

[B]

That was the end of the prelude to an opera that we're all looking forward to. This is one of Wagner's more popular operas, more popularly played. It's long, but honestly, it doesn't seem that way.

[A]

Are you sure it wasn't an overture?

[B]

Prelude. It was a prelude.

[C]

You go to opera jail.

[A]

I do have just one thing to say on a general note, which is this music is so pretty. I really like the sound that this opera makes. I am not a person who knows a lot about music theory. I'm a person who loves to listen to it and let it wash over me and feel all the things that music makes you feel and all the rest of it. But there's some opera that you can just listen to. And I think that this opera in particular, and to an extent Wagner in general, for all of the faults and failings that we can rightly find with Wagner's work, and particularly with the man. Isn't the music fantastic?

[B]

It is. It is exquisite. And this is why it is one of the favorites that gets played over and over again. It's not quite. Quite as difficult an opera to mount as some of his others, but it is reasonably long.

[A]

You just gotta find a swan.

[B]

There is a swan that is spoken to a number of times or sung to a number of times in the opera. But Grant's only complaining because we watched a version that had an imaginary swan and we felt deprived.

[A]

They had one job.

[B]

Well, the music is sumptuous, it's gorgeous. And it is part of what I was saying earlier on that it is very much embraced as a romantic piece. Wagner himself, he was proud. He was pleased with the success of this. But later in his life, looking back, he really wanted people to focus on some of his later operas more than this. He sees this as a younger work. But no complaints about Lohengrin. There's so much going on here.

[C]

Well, should we take some time to talk about our characters and set our scene here?

[B]

Yes, please. Because even though we've spoken about Lohengrin a little bit already, he has not appeared. He's not on stage yet. There's going to be some anticipation.

[A]

Wait, there's someone named Lohengrin in this?

[C]

No, I don't know who that is. What are you talking about?

[B]

Okay, we've got a clue in the audience. We're not supposed to know his name. Kind of like in Turandot, when you can't know this unknown prince until towards the end. But Lohengrin, they named the opera after him. So we have to kind of pretend

[C]

we just we're in on the secret before the characters are. But let's start from the beginning and tell everybody what the secret is.

[B]

Okay, so we open on a scene.

[C]

Yeah. So we are in Belgium. It's not called Belgium, but we're in Belgium. I'm from Belgium, so I want to make sure that I ground us there. Very proud of my country, Antwerp. We're in the Brabant, which is a region in the early Middle Ages. That is basically what modern day Belgium is now. And there's a lot of infighting and quarrels and nobody's happy with each other.

[A]

Right now it's the Holy Roman Empire. What do you expect?

[C]

Yeah, well, and also, you know, it's Belgium, so they've been fighting since forever.

[A]

That's true.

[C]

Still fighting. So we Are. I'm just gonna say we're in Belgium because that's easier. We're in Belgium. And one of the main issues is an issue that we're all very familiar with in a lot of stories from this time period, which is the intersection of a growing monotheistic Christian religion and government that is prevailing over, but only by sort of its fingernails, the previous pagan rule and religion and intertwining of that religion in government. That is a tension that we will see throughout this opera and throughout many other pieces that are set in this time period. So we're already in an unstable, divided place when we start here. This is also a place that is without a ruler right now. The person who is supposed to be ruling the duke has disappeared and potentially died. And there is just a woman leftover, Elsa, one of our main characters, not the Elsa of Frozen, although maybe an inspiration. Yeah. And she is sort of de facto duchess ruler, but can't really take control because she is being accused, as we will soon see, of deliberately getting rid of her brother so she can take power.

[B]

Right. Her brother being that young duke who is no longer to be found.

[A]

Whatever happened to him?

[C]

Well, I guess we'll never know.

[B]

Funny you should ask. That is what we are going to hear about in a moment. But just to make this a grand set piece, opening the opera with that setting known. We have a herald who starts that are singing. We have the men of Bramont awaiting the arrival of the king. And this is the German king, as Grant mentioned. It may be Belgium, but it's part of this Holy Roman Empire, the German Empire. And there's a lot of nationalism that we're going to hear in this first act.

[C]

And even. Even this just to note, is he's more a king than the king. He's the closest thing they've got to sort of a big ruler they can appeal to.

[A]

And we should mention here that there is a certain amount of, as there always is anachronism here, where Wagner treats Germany as if it were a thing, when, as Kat is saying, it very much was not really a thing. There are certainly things you could talk about that are German. There are parts of the German language that exist. There are Germanic peoples, and the. The title of king of Germany has its own whole complicated history. But there is a lot in this opera where it is treated as though Germany is an institution in toto, which is very much not the historical case. And there is a certain amount of tension there where you've got Rabant, which is very much not German. Proper, which is where all this is all set. But at the same time, they sing a lot about how great Germany is and how Germany is going to protect itself and so on and so forth.

[B]

Well, this is being written, after all, in the middle of the 19th century. And Wagner himself was not present for the premiere because he had been part of one of these uprisings. It's complicated. He was very much involved with German nationalism going on around him at the time.

[A]

Or should we say East Frankian nationalism?

[C]

And I'll just say, spoiler alert. The Belgians don't love when the Germans come in and try to, you know, take over and all of that fun stuff. But that's, you know, still to come.

[B]

Yeah, that's not treated in this opera. No, that is. Does not show.

[C]

But you can see the roots of a. A long standing conflict there.

[B]

You definitely can. But I would love to just point out that this character, the King, he is based on an actual historical person, an actual historical ruler.

[A]

Henry the Fowler, yes, King of East Francia, which is the part of Charlemagne's domain that vaguely transforms into the Holy Roman Empire. Germany, Rome. And he is in this time period where none of that is fixed or certain, where the early descendants of Charlemagne are hashing things out amongst themselves and the kingdoms merge together or divide or whatever, pretty, pretty constantly. And West Francia ends up becoming what we call France. East Francia becomes Germany. And Lotharingia in the middle kind of evaporates into a whole bunch of little places like Belgium and the Netherlands and Luxembourg and Northern Italy.

[B]

And the King shows up not because he is there necessarily to solve Brabant's problems, he's there to solve his own problems. He has shown up because he's looking for men, he's looking for soldiers, because he wants these Brabantians to join with his Saxon men to fight off the Hungarians. They don't show up in the opera either. But there is this political overlay that we open with, that the King is there and he's there for a reason, and he wants to make his holdings larger, stronger, more important and beat back any threat there might be from the East.

[C]

But it's very convenient that he's around because as we mentioned earlier, they are having a bit of a dispute about who's supposed to be ruling this land. There is a successor who is a adolescent, perhaps even a child, who is meant to become duke, but he has disappeared and it is assumed that he has died. This is Gottfried, as we mentioned, his sister Elsa is the next in the line of succession. Elsa is being accused of killing her brother in order to seize power for herself and her line. And the Duke Gottfried's guardian, a man named Friedrich von Telramond, has accused her. And right now they need someone to adjudicate this accusation and this dispute between the two of them.

[B]

Yeah, that's part of what kings did, part of the way that people recognized the authority of a king when they were trying to build their power. We're going to see that this king has a little trouble making an instant decision. But let's listen to a little bit of the music we're going to pick up with Friedrich von Telramund. He is going to accuse publicly Elsa of murdering her own brother because he saw her upset after she came back from a walk in the forest without him. I find this so unconvincing.

[C]

But anyway, I have other motivations here, I think.

[B]

Right, right. We'll hear. You'll. You'll get a taste of who Frederick is, and then you will also hear the men of Brevant. The choral pieces in this opera are exquisite, beautiful. It's small. Here we will hear the men of Brabant, and then the king not entirely being convinced, because everybody loves Elsa,

[A]

Reach.

[B]

The people of Brabant. Here in Lohengrin Wagner's opera, they are sympathetic to Elsa. Elsa is silent during all these accusations, and she will remain silent as the king questions her and says, elsa, dear child, and he's sympathetic to her as well. Can you please answer these accusations? Can you explain what happened here?

[C]

Yeah. Silence becomes a bit of a theme, as we've alluded to, a bit vaguely. Her silence here will be mirrored by the character of Lohengrin Silence later on, which we'll talk a little bit about. I think in this case, it's very strategic. This is the Middle Ages, and to be a woman accused of murder or witchcraft, as will also happen later with a different character, there's not a whole lot you can say to save yourself. And so her silence here is meant to express innocence. And she will, instead of trying to defend herself, will appeal to a man to defend her, to defend her honor by combat. Because I think she understands here that language is not something she really has access to as a tool.

[B]

Yeah, but that's not gonna stop her from singing. Finally, when she speaks, the first thing she'll say is, my poor brother. And she will ultimately open up and again, keeping everyone's sympathies on her side. I don't think it's meant to be represented as a ploy or anything, but it's just telling us who she is, this innocent young woman. She is going to appeal to God. She needs God's help, strength. And then she's going to tell us about a very unusual dream that she had.

[A]

Did it have to do with the swan?

[C]

You're very excited about the swan, but not quite yet, no. She's dreamed, as we all sometimes dream, of a knight in shining armor, someone who will come and save her and protect her. And she believes in this dream, believes it's heaven sent. And she tells everyone that she believes that this knight will come and save her.

[B]

The knight in shining armor. This is not the first mention of it in history, but there's a lot of popularization of the knight in shining armor and the whole swan thing, which we'll get to in a moment.

[A]

I can't wait.

[B]

But let's hear from Elsa.

[C]

Now, Often, ship sam,

[B]

Elsa believes in this knight in shining armor that she encountered in her dream. He is real to her. And interestingly, just as when we listen to Friedrich make his comments and the men respond and the king responds. Same with Elsa. The men respond and the king respond, and they're sympathetic to her, which, as you can imagine, is a little concerning to Friedrich of Telramund.

[C]

Yes. And the king, I think, understands that there's no real way to resolve this because she has the support of the people, and he doesn't want to cause more trouble than he's walked into. So he declares, what's the medieval equivalent of a jump ball? Trial by combat. So he says, all right, Telramund, you seem like a hardy, strong young man. You can fight for your right to become the new duke and to condemn her for the murder of her brother, and she has to bring her own champion to fight on her behalf. And trial by combat. I'm very certain that Grant wants to jump in here to talk a little bit about why trial by combat was used. Used in this time period.

[A]

Yeah. So to open with the obligatory caveat, almost anything you can possibly say about trial by combat will be false for one or another time period or culture. With that being said, it is a very ancient thing, the idea of we resolve disputes by fighting them out, which, in fairness, is kind of in absence of law, the default way of handling things anyway. And so institutionalizing it as a form of law is basically just trying to get that away. It's sort of like how votes in democracies are abstracted civil wars. And so the concept in this culture, in this early Christian E. I mean, they are technically Christian, but Christianity, as an actual ideology certainly doesn't have a deep hold there, even though Christian piety certainly does. In this time period, there was an idea of what was called the ordeal. The ordeal is a way of determining the truth of a matter by appealing to God. And there are a lot of forms of ordeal. The most famous and often mocked thing is about, does the witch float? But there were lots of other ordeals. Ordeal where someone would hold something really hot, and if they could withstand it, they were innocent. And so on a religious, ideological level, it's appealing to God to make the decision. And on a very practical level, most of what's happening in a trial by ordeal is you're like, who cares more?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is what's happening in the duel? And how are you going to do holding the hot thing? So there is a bit of a contest of wills going on in this. But, yeah, it's to keep people from breaking out into civil war. They have these little abstracted civil war in the context of a judicial duel, and they call it done and settled. And one can imagine why a king in this situation would not want to interfere with the local politics, would not want to pick a winner or loser, and would instead say, you guys fight it out. Whoever's done here gathers up my army to go and fight the Hungarians.

[B]

Right. And it is a way of letting God decide. And they all agree that. But Elsa's not going to pick up a sword and battle telramund.

[A]

Although there are some hilarious adaptations to judicial duels for situations where it was necessary for a woman and man to be in conflict with each other. One of my favorite being a judicial duel between a husband and wife, which took place a fair bit later than this, but historically did take place where the accommodation for her being a woman was that he had to be in a pit the whole time, and she could kind of like walk around him and whack him with a stick while he was in the pit and he had to try and defend himself as best as possible.

[C]

Why haven't they made an offer about that yet?

[A]

I would watch that.

[B]

Do we know how it ended up? We don't. Lost history.

[A]

I'm sure someone does know. By the way, I'm fairly confident that the result of this. I mean, there's no way she could have lost, right?

[C]

One would hope not. Well, this is a free idea to everyone listening to the podcast if you. If you need a story.

[B]

Okay, back to Elsa. She's not going to fight. Whether the guy's in a pit or not, everyone knows that it's not even a question. She requires a champion. And the king will ask the men, the gathered men, who are sympathetic toward her. They're afraid to go against Telramund because he is a mighty warrior.

[C]

So they. They call. The herald calls out, and he calls out once, he says, anybody? Anybody? And then they call it again. Nothing. And so Elsa drops to her knees, she prays to God, and she says, please help me. And all of a sudden. Grant, what happens?

[B]

Oh, Grant, please don't. Please stop. I think you need to practice your swan call.

[A]

And all of a sudden, the swan shows up, carrying at last. The swan is the chariot horse of the chariot boat. That is the swan boat. And so even though we're right in the beginning of the opera, we're nowhere near the end. We get to start out with a, you know, swan song.

[C]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

All right. We're gonna listen to Wagner's music, which is much prettier than Grant's swan call. And you're going to hear the building anticipation and excitement as they see something in the distance, and then they realize what it is, and it is exciting. And everyone calls it a miracle.

[A]

Ram. Sam. Sa.

[B]

This is opera for everyone. And we are talking about the opera Lohengrin by Richard Wagner. And the title character, we don't know his name yet. Well, we know his name, but the characters on stage don't know his name.

[A]

They didn't read the playbill. Mm.

[B]

Mm. Or the posters or their ticket stubs, but Lohengrin has arrived, pulled by a swan in a boat, and it's a magnificent entrance. He is literally God's gift to mankind and to Elsa.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it's worth pausing for 30 seconds to just say that. The whole idea of a knight in shining armor, the shining, is important here. People in this time period were not clean. None of them. No one shine. There's no shining. The armor would have been. Even if you were somebody who regularly took good care of your armor to have it be shining and undented. This is clearly someone who's protected by God, who is such a great champion that his armor is never nicked or dented or dirtied. And so we have this celestial light surrounding him and the armor shining and the white swan. And I don't know how Elsa didn't just faint right there.

[B]

She was pretty grateful. And it's interesting, when we first hear from Lohengrin, he's expressing his affection for his swan.

[A]

You know how when you get off a bus, you're supposed to say, thanks for the ride, or like tip the bus driver. It's like that, but a full on aria directed at the swan.

[B]

Having tipped his bus driver, shown his affection towards the useful swan, he turns to the men and women of Brabant and to the King. Behold, here he is. How can he be of service?

[C]

And he offers to be Elsa's champion. He also offers to marry her. It's all part of the same package. He will fight on her behalf.

[A]

You thought those Hallmark movies were going too fast where it was like in three days. The second thing he says to her, he's like, hey, I'll kill this dude for you. And also.

[C]

But that's fine because who would say no to this swan man?

[B]

Yeah, she says, my body and soul are yours.

[C]

Yeah, well, you know, he's sent by God. What else can you say? I mean, we could spend some time on that. I don't think we will right now, but it is a little bit, it's notable because of course this isn't just an offer to defend her in a disinterested sense, even though it's sort of being put forward as disinterested. If he marries her, he would also take power here. And I think that's, you know, just notable for. For sent by God, holy savior.

[A]

And he offers to protect the land and people. He offers to be what a noble at the time should have been. The idea of being a. A duke or a count is that you're the protector of that land. Yeah, that's the ideological basis for the aristocracy.

[B]

Let's hear a little bit of how Wagner shows us these two individuals meeting. He says he'll come to her defense and she promises her body and soul to him. And you can just get a sense of how excited these two young lovers are.

[C]

Good wished in life or desire. So there is one condition though, on his offer to become the new lord of the land and, and to marry Elsa. He says to her, specifically to her, that she can never ask his name. Not only that she can never know it, but that she can never ask him. This becomes very important later because she is the asker. It is very specifically a condition laid upon their bargain, their covenant, the two of them. And there is a little bit here a sense of going back to fairy tales where there's this idea that he has made a bargain with her specifically that he is a creature able to offer something to her. And that offering is sealed with a condition. And this is very common in old, old English fairy tales and folktales. These bargains almost always don't work out and end badly for the. For the human who's engaged with them

[A]

kind of inevitably don't work out. Right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, right. I think you'd have to. You'd have to search far and wide to find one that did. This is also a motif that goes back to probably far before this, but to Greek mythology as well. Most notably, we see this appear in Zeus and Semele, but we also. In one of my favorites, my favorite story is the myth of Cupid and Psyche, where Psyche is a human princess who marries Cupid, the son of the goddess of love, Aphrodite. And his condition is that he can't show his face to her, that she can never ask to see his face, that they always are in a dark room. And of course, she will ultimately break this because she's curious and human. And these stories reinforce this bargaining between a creature that is human and a creature that is not. And what is human about us is our curiosity and our failings.

[B]

And also the foundational story so many operas take on of Orpheus and Eurydice. There's also that requirement that you can't. Well, that he can't look back in order to save her. There's always. There's this condition put on by something of greater power.

[C]

And these conditions are often arbitrary. There may be a logic that's internal to the story itself, but they're arbitrary in a larger sense. It's a condition meant to test whether you can obey.

[A]

Obligatory pitch for GK Chesterton's the Logic of Fairyland.

[C]

Yes, that's a good one. And I would say also to CS Lewis, till We have Faces, which is a great retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So there is here that condition, and we don't know exactly why. And although, as we noted, we are in on the secret, we know his name is Lohengrin, or I guess we assume his name is Lohengrin because it is an opera about him. No one else knows his identity or his name. He is just a mysterious knight sent by God.

[B]

And interestingly, very early on in this relationship, she's pledged her body and soul to him. And he literally says out loud, ich libidich, I love you. He proclaims it for all to see. The people of Brabant are taking all of this in, and basically, as a group, they turn to Friedrich and say, you want to rethink that challenge that you posed. You want to rethink and withdraw from the combat you've just sworn to engage in.

[A]

Because, like, if you've Just been challenged to a duel. And they're like, who's going to fight against you? And you're like, I don't know. I'm the toughest knight around here. And then out of a poof of glittering smoke, a mysterious man in a swan boat appears. It would be reasonable to rethink your choices.

[B]

But of course he doesn't. Friedrich, we haven't mentioned up to this point, is not entirely behaving of his own volition, of his own impetus. There's somebody in the corner, in the shadows, on the periphery, who's encouraging him to grasp for power, to make this challenge, to make Elsa responsible for her brother's death. In fact, someone who told Friedrich that she herself witnessed the killing that Elsa did of her brother. That, of course, is his wife, the identifiable villain of the piece. His wife, Ortrud. And Ortrud, unsurprisingly from Grant's setup earlier, Ortrud represents this older pagan order. And it's said explicitly in the show, she is from a long line of pagan rulers. She is royalty in her own right, but not the same kind of royalty that Ilse and her brother, the duke, their father before them come from the new Christians. She's pagan. And he had explained that he was originally promised to marry Elsa, but when he quote unquote, saw her guilt in her face, he rejected her, he tells the crowd. And married Ortrude instead. Married the high ranking pagan princess?

[C]

Yeah. And I mean, there's something to be said here for a small comment on female ambition. We have Elsa, who is a rightful heir if her brother is dead, that she is rightfully the heir, whether, I mean, she, obviously, if she killed him. No, but. But she didn't. Spoiler alert. And then we have her giving up ambition for instead this God given male figure. And then we have Ortrud, who is instead orchestrating her ambition through her husband. But she is, in a Lady Macbethy sense, the real power behind the throne. I think.

[B]

Yeah, you get the sense that Friedrich might be more afraid of his wife than any other knight he has to combat. Well, I think it's time for our battle. The king is going to call on God to judge this battle, to give strength to the one who has virtue and right on their side and to SAP strength from the one who is wrong.

[A]

Which is, you know, one of these interesting examples. Speaking of the pagan Christian intersection, on a very fundamental level, the whole trial by combat thing is very obviously not Christian. This is not what you would naturally extrapolate from the teachings of Jesus but also they come from a warrior culture. They've been doing trials by combat since before anyone knew anything. And they are now putting a Christian gloss on it. And so the way that they have to justify the trial by combat instead of saying the mighty will prevail is, oh, we're going to ask for God to give strength to the one who's correct and to SAP the strength of the one who is incorrect. That God is going to be visibly apparent in this brawl.

[B]

And Wagner writes some exquisite music with all of the people involved. The King, the men of Brabant, Elsa and Lohengrin, Frederick, Ortrud, all at once, cheering on their own side, hoping to see justice done.

[C]

Ram.

[B]

Jesus. Sh.

[A]

Ram.

[C]

Sam. So the battle commences.

[A]

It's so tense. Who do you think is going to win?

[C]

I don't know. Is this a one act opera? They fight the knight who we know as Lohengrin. He wins, but he doesn't kill. Friedrich Grant. Is this common.

[A]

That's an unanswerable question.

[C]

Is this common in literature about trials by combat?

[A]

The trial by combat is in literature. It's a dramatic device. It was supposed to be a duel to the death, and then it's not. He refuses to kill. Which, by the way, is a thing that has a ancient literary tradition going back very, very far and continuing memorably through Firefly, where the duel to the death is not actually to the death, because the victor shows grace and mercy, because this night is the perfect Christian night, literally sent by God. And so we're not under the impression that if it had gone the other way, that he would have been shown mercy. But he does show mercy. He says, your life belongs to me. I have triumphed over you through God's power and I spare it that you might repent, that you might be cleansed of your sin. He shows him mercy specifically for the purpose of having him change his ways.

[B]

Yeah. Friedrich won't be welcomed back into full society in Antwerp, there with the. With his fellows, or orchard, for that matter, but he is allowed to live.

[C]

So Elsa is declared innocent by the King. Now that this has finished, because this is legally binding, the crowd cheers for her. And we end the first act with this power shift. Friedrich and his wife Ortred are exiled and the knight Lohengrin and Elsa are engaged to be married and are the new incoming power in this region.

[A]

Ra.

[C]

Sam.

[B]

Well, that was a big finish to the first act. And with Act 2, we open on Friedrich and his wife Ortrud, who are excluded from the society of the rest of the people. I love this section of the opera for the interaction between this wife and husband who have failed in their ambitions at this point. It is wonderful. And it's also, in music history terms, it's pointed to as Wagner showing us how you can do an interaction with two individuals in a scene without doing a traditional duet style. He does a wonderful job portraying these two personalities here, and they're, as you can imagine, a little snippy with each other.

[A]

It's sort of an interesting thing. Friedrich has been denied of everything he wanted. He wanted to marry Elsa. He went against that and married Ortrud. He wanted to end up ruling over Brabant, and no, he's not going to get that either. He wanted to be known as this great, glorious and virtuous warrior. And indeed he was for a time. He had a great reputation. And then it all comes crashing down. His honor is taken away from him. And there are echoes in some of the language that he's using of the biblical story of Cain, where Cain kills his brother and then is worried that he's going all around the world and wherever he goes, people are going to hate him and curse him and run away from him. Here Friedrich says the most pathetic version of this, which is that he thinks that even robbers will decide that he's not worthy of being robbed, which I think is a hilarious and very grim way to talk about it. But he's down in the dumps. He's supposed to be this emblem of chivalry, and in certain ways he is. He has some very real chivalric qualities, but his honor has been taken from him. He chose to marry this woman who offered him a particular kind of power, and it hasn't worked out.

[B]

And he has taken this trial by combat as proof that his wife lied to him. It is proof in his mind that when Ortrud told him this is before the story started. But when Ortrud told him, I saw Elsa kill her brother, he's accusing her because he knows it was a lie. It was a lie, and he is convinced of it. And he is furious with his wife. But she doesn't grovel or apologize. She's got another point of view.

[C]

Yeah. And it seems like he, you know, we've talked about sort of what bargain they may have made in their marriage, but she doesn't seem to have revealed to him that she is a witch before their marriage. But now is a good time.

[B]

Hey, husband, maybe I can be of assistance.

[C]

Yeah, she's kind of like, oh, I've been hiding this Great power. And she says that I have obviously this. This noble lineage, but also I am a pagan witch, and I know that we are destined, that my bloodline is destined to keep ruling this kingdom. And her plan is that she is going to get Elsa to violate this condition by the night, because she is smart enough to understand that the story and the success of the story hinges upon this condition. Hilariously, she says, I'm a witch, but then she says. She says, I'm gonna get her to violate this condition. There's no. You don't need witchcraft to do that. You just need a crafty mind, really.

[B]

Which she has.

[C]

Which she has. Yes.

[A]

And her expertise on witchcraft makes her convince her husband that the magic man who appeared in a poof of smoke was in fact doing magic to cheat in the duel. Which in her defense, their defense is not an insane thing to think. Reasonable guy teleports in, and it's like, did he use magic in the duel? I mean. I mean, maybe he didn't, but it's reasonable to ask the question. And so she says, you think you were defeated by God? You think your honor has been taken away? Actually, no. He cheated. He was doing magic. And I've got some crafty ways of my own.

[B]

It's very interesting, this character of Ortrud who is, in every respect, in Wagner's writing. Wagner. I don't if we haven't said this before. Wagner wrote this libretto. Wagner wrote all of his librettos. He controlled the whole piece of art, starting with the libretto and then moving on to the music. But even though we're clear what Wagner thinks of these characters, there have been some interesting interpretations in recent decades of Ortrud herself. Because as we're watching this, and as Grant just said, Ortrud does bring up some legitimate questions, whereas any wavering of faith in this man who magically appeared seems to be sacrilegious. It seems to be against God, which is an interesting thought. That this great man who appears must be revered, must be believed, must be followed. And that's clearly the message of this show. But you can tinker with that idea a little bit and acknowledge that perhaps some of Ortrud's questions are reasonable to ask.

[C]

Yeah, and, I mean, the only thing that gives Elsa's magical being more legitimacy in this narrative than Friedrich's magical being is that one of them is Christian and the other is pagan. There's no good reason why the pagan witch should not prevail over the Christian, other than that this is a. An opera that is explicitly about the shift towards Christianity.

[A]

And Wagner himself was very much caught between the tension of pagan and Christian throughout his entire life, going back and forth between these things. And you get some places where Wagner seems very Christian, upholding the ideas of compassion or self denial or what have you. And other places where it gets very Friedrich Nietzsche will to power. And you get a certain amount of that here you get a certain amount of that. Both in terms of Orchard's explicit she is going to take power because she wants to take power. And there also is an extent to which the figure of Lohengrin, this magically divinely appointed no one can or should question him person, he is an ubermensch figure. He is this superman who has entered into their world. And it's part of why we always do our little obligatory thing where we point out that Wagner was not a nice person. Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He was a profoundly broken individual who hurt or betrayed everyone he ever came into contact with. And so it's hard to. It's hard to disentangle the person Wagner from this opera and particularly from the person of Lohengrin, this great man who may be a good man, but who cares? But he's a great man and he has entered into the picture and everyone owes him what deference and fealty because he is the great man. There is an extent to which the point of this is the opposite of something like Hamilton, where the point is that goodness is more important than greatness. And here he is virtuous, but his virtue is as encapsulated by and demonstrated by his might. And there is an extent to which you get that, that sort of intersection of Christianity and paganism. And I should mention here, when we're talking about paganism in the context of Wagner, we're very much talking about Germanic Norse paganism as interpreted through literature. And it's a warrior culture and it's a warrior culture. And so much of European history can be interpreted as this constant conflict between that culture that pre exists Christianity and the fight with Christianity. The whole idea of a knight itself is a negotiation. Chivalry is a negotiation between the values of the Church and the values of the warrior aristocracy.

[C]

Yeah, I think you're right that this is a very muscular Christianity, an expression of muscular Christianity here. If it was more of the sort of the meek shall inherit the earth vibe, Elsa wouldn't need a champion who also had a huge sword. Perhaps, you know, if her champion was a wise monk or something like that, that might seem to fit more with, with our idealized version of it.

[A]

But stay tuned for upcoming events where Parsifal will actually take this on more completely.

[C]

Yes, yes. Something to look forward to there.

[B]

Yeah, Wagner's last opera. We will get to that, team. We will get to that. But right now, we're going to listen to a little bit of the interaction between this fascinating couple, Friedrich von Telramund, and his wife, Orchard.

[A]

I never.

[B]

You're listening to Opera for Everyone, a radio show and podcast that makes opera understandable, accessible, and enjoyable for everyone. I'm your host today, Pat Wright, joined

[C]

by Kathleen and Grant.

[A]

Opera for Everyone airs Sundays from 9 to 11am Mountain Time on 89.1 Khol in beautiful Jackson, Wyoming.

[C]

If you like what you hear, please subscribe to the Opera for Everyone podcast on itunes or wherever you get your podcasts where you can find a rich trove of past episodes.

[B]

Stay with us. The second half of today's show is coming right up. Welcome back to the second half of Opera for Everyone. I'm your host, Pat Wright, and I'm here with Kathleen Vandewille.

[C]

Hello, everyone.

[A]

And Grant, Wonderful to be here.

[B]

So glad you both are here. Just a quick reminder to everyone listening. Kathleen Vanderwyl has a substack that I rely upon regularly for education advice on consuming movies, books, TV shows, because consuming is probably a strange word to use, but we are consumers and you only have so much time in the day. And Kathleen, you provide such a nice guide with constructive criticism.

[C]

Oh, thank you, Pat. Yes, I have a lot of feelings about books and movies and TV shows, and I need a place to put them. So check them out if you're looking for recommendations.

[B]

Constructive criticism on substance stack. Today we've been discussing Wagner's opera Lohengrin, an opera that premiered in 1850. Before we go any further, it is time to say thank you, please, to these wonderful musicians who created this CD that we're listening to. This recording was made in Berlin in 1998 with the Staatsopper Berlin under the direction of Daniel Barenboim, with, of course, the chorus. Oh, what a lot of choral pieces we have of the German Staatsopper Berlin.

[A]

Any famous choral pieces?

[B]

We're gonna get to that.

[A]

I actually think this is objectively true. The most famous choral piece in all

[B]

of opera, though we don't know it as a choral piece typically. Okay, there's the teaser. Kathleen, would you let us know about the singers?

[C]

Henry the Fowler, King of the Germans, is sung by Rene Pappe. Lohengrin by Peter Seifert, elsa by Emily McGee. Friedrich of Telramund is sung by Falk Struchman Ortrud, His Wife by Deborah Pulaski. The King's Herald is sung by Roman Trekel.

[B]

Thank you, everyone. What exquisite music this is. Okay, opera helmet, quiz time. Are you all drawing straws or sharing the duties?

[C]

You always make me do it, so I think Grant should do it.

[A]

Okay, I got this thing. Once upon a time, in a legendary version of early medieval Germany, there is a military need. They are under attack by vicious Hungarians to the east, and they don't know what they're going to do. And so the king goes to rally up his best soldiers and tries to get the most powerful people he can. And he goes to Brabant in Belgium, and he goes and rallies up a whole bunch of people and everybody's ready to go and fight. But there's a little bit of chaos. There's something rotten in the state of Brabant, and they have to deal with the fact that there is a succession crisis because the rightful duke has died or disappeared, or something terrible has happened to him. And Friedrich of Telramund, who accuses Elsa, the sister of the murdered question mark young duke, of having taken him out to seize power for herself. And so what happens is, they argue back and forth. The king decides. He. Well, he decides he can't decide. And so he asks that it be decided by trial of combat. And Friedrich van Telramund goes up and says, I will fight to prove her guilt. And she says, I had a dream of a knight in shining armor, and maybe he would come help me. And everyone's like, okay, we'll see how that goes for you. And then all of a sudden, poof, there's a swan. And also a knight. There's a swan, and the swan is driving a boat. And there is a knight in shining armor, the one from her dream, who appears and defeats her challenger and as a result has the right to slay him as a victor in trial by combat. But he spares his life, hoping that he will turn to repentance. Because, you see, this is not just any ordinary knight. This is a knight who has been sent as a miracle from God. And so he epitomizes all of the Christian virtues. He's all the things that you could possibly want out of a knight. And on the other side, you have Friedrich, who goes to lick his wounds with his wife, who is, she reveals, a pagan sorceress. She is a witch. She is someone who represents the old gods that the people have only recently turned away from. And she seeks to restore the Old ways. She comes from a powerful old family and she wants to see the new order overthrown. And so, when Act 2 opens, the swan Knight, who doesn't have a name quite yet. His name is Lohengrin. He doesn't have the name quite yet. And Elsa, his beloved, they are in power. They are looking forward to being married formally. I wonder how that'll go. Meanwhile, the pagan sorceress and her now disgraced knight of a husband are plotting their revenge.

[B]

Thank you. That was wonderful. Yes, And Telramund himself doesn't have a lot of ideas. It seems that most of the ideas he has in this entire story have been placed there by his wife, Ortrud. Ortrud is a powerful woman, definitely cast as the villain in this piece.

[C]

As we return to our opera, Ortrud, the wife of Friedrich, is alone on stage now. When we last left her, she had finally told her husband something perhaps she should have told him long ago, or never, that she is a witch and she is Lady Macbething pretty hard here. She has been trying to convince her husband that her pagan witch powers can help them get the throne back, specifically through a plot to get Elsa to violate the condition that the knight Lohengrun has put on her, that she never ask for his identity, his name.

[B]

Right, because she knows that this is the weak spot of the night. She says, oh, he's so stupid. He revealed his own weak spot. I can work with this.

[C]

She reads fairy tales, so she knows that if you give someone your name, then you give them power over you. So she starts praying to her own pagan gods here for strength, for malice, for cunning. This is, I would say, potentially inspired by Lady Macbeth's unsex me speech, where she wants to become the most strong, but also most sort of evil version of herself in order to go through with this plot. And specifically she's praying to these pagan gods, Odin and Freya, these Norse gods, to give her these qualities. Now what we'll hear in a minute is her praying and also Elsa, who will come upon her and interrupt this prayer at the end.

[B]

Yes, because she is now having an opportunity, putting her plan to work. Elsa is going to see her in a very diminished state and take pity on her. And Ortrud knows that the sweet little innocent can easily be duped. And that's exactly what's going on here. This is opera for everyone. And we are talking about Wagner's Lohengrin, the infamous knight in shining armor. But we don't know his name yet, and he's not in this scene. We have heard from Ortrud and Elsa. Ortrud is praying to her gods that her plot and her plan come through. And Elsa is feeling sorry for Ortrud because she and her husband have been dishonored. Elsa even is going to say, oh, come, let me help you. And tomorrow, when everyone's in a good mood, on my wedding day, I'll plead for your husband so that he is forgiven.

[A]

Elsa's pretty sure that with just the right words, she can have everyone let it go.

[B]

Oh, thank you for that. She is a little naive and sadly, we're gonna find her a little gullible, manipulable.

[C]

So Ortrud and Elsa begin talking. Elsa is a little bit naive, as you mentioned. Ortrud is going to take advantage of that here. She warns Elsa that she doesn't really know anything about this guy.

[B]

Basically, he just showed up with a

[C]

swan, which, honestly, no lies heard here. She doesn't know anything about this guy.

[B]

That's why Ortrud's plan stands a chance of working. Because it's true.

[C]

It's very true. And if we were in the real world, maybe Ortrud would be doing her a solid here. But the logic of the fairy tale here goes against what Ortrud is trying to say. But she's warning her. She says, you don't know this guy. He could just leave at any time. He just showed up. Who's to say he's gonna stay, who's to say he's really gonna marry you, etc.

[B]

And magic seems to have been at work when he just showed up. That seems like magic. And the same magic could take him away, right?

[C]

But Elsa is unmoved. She is sure he has come from God. I mean, fair on her. She had a vision of this. This person coming. She prayed to God, and then he showed up. And so by A to B to C properties, that does make sense to her. And she. She holds to that. And although Elsa, she. She doesn't understand that Orchard is trying to. To cause mischief here either. She sort of thinks, oh, she's just giving me this. This little sisterly nudge. So the. The evil plotting continues, but Elsa is currently unmoved. It is not working.

[B]

And she's just so in love, she can't believe her good fortune. And she'll sing about her love and she'll tell Ortrud that you don't have the kind of faith I have, so you don't have my happiness. I just love the piece where they sing. And she is just all sweetness and Light and believing. And Ortrude is saying, ha ha. This prideful girl, she thinks she's got it all. Well, we'll see about that.

[A]

J.

[C]

Sam, Now we have changed scenes. The sun is rising. Everyone is coming together, all of the people, because this wedding is going to be happening soon and we have a herald come out and announce to everybody what has gone on, because they were not a part of all of the stuff that we just saw. In the first act, the herald announces that Friedrich of Teleromund has been banished along with his wife, and that anyone who is a follower of his is also banished and is an outlaw and legally cannot come in to the country anymore. The herald also announces that the king has offered to make this knight Lohengrin the new Duke of Brabant. We know that by marrying Elsa he would take upon this title. But the knight has declined this and only wishes to be known as the Protector of Brabant. Obviously we have an understanding of what a protector means in our current parlance. There is maybe a little bit more of legal language around that about something being a protectorate.

[A]

I think there's some shades of Cromwell there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Wanting to be the king but not be the king. So you're the Lord Protector.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. It's a little bit of declining power, but not maybe declining it entirely. I would say.

[B]

First citizen and all.

[C]

Yes, first citizen. Yeah, exactly. There's a little Caesar there. The herald also announces he's got a lot to say here, that the knight, the unnamed knight, will lead the people, that he is going to take them into battle, into more glorious conquests, and that he is indeed going to marry Elsa. And so we've got a lot. We've got a lot of news for the people right now.

[B]

Well, that's what the herald needs to do. Groom today, soldier tomorrow. And the nighttime will in fact be interesting. But for the moment, the crowd is all riled up. All the men are going to sing together in another one of these gorgeous coral bits. They are ready for the fight because the hero is leading us. All of these people, like Elsa, have total and utter faith in this shiny armored knight who has appeared amongst them. But just as we're hearing that choral piece die down, we're going to hear a few little dissenting voices, people who are concerned. These are supporters of Frederick. We know that Ortrud is on the scene because she's under Elsa's wing. But some of these nobles are going to show up to the side with Frederick and we in fact are going to see Frederick pull a hood off of his head. And they'll be surprised and thrilled that Frederick is there.

[A]

It. Ra.

[C]

Ra.

[B]

Friedrich von Tellramund is on the scene, and he's gotten his confidence back from his moaning on the steps with his wife in the beginning of the actual. He says, you will see what happens here. I'm going to make terrible accusations about this unknown knight who's just shown up in our midst. I'll take him down a different way. In other words, I didn't beat him in battle, but I got other plans. He's gotten the Lady Macbeth treatment is

[C]

all I can say for sure.

[A]

And Friedrich does, to an extent, have an argument. The magic guy might have used magic. I mean, he did, right?

[C]

He did show up drawn by a swan. Let's not forget. He's not being subtle.

[A]

Yeah. When someone accuses you of witchcraft, that's one thing, but if they have immediately done obvious magic the moment before, that does change the calculus a little bit.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But at the same time, interestingly, he doesn't really seem to be swaying anybody. Friedrich does have his little cadre of supporters, his buddies who are doubting the night, and particularly who say words about being concerned that the knight is leading them into war, and a war far from their own country. Brabant is far in the western side of the empire, and they are being sent across the empire to fight a foe in the east, and this foe has not threatened them directly. And this is all very concerning to them. And so they have real reason to support Friedrich and his platform.

[C]

Yeah, and I think this is maybe the part of the. The story that falls apart a little bit. For me, it's the Hungarian part, because why does Lohengrin care about the Hungarians invading? That has nothing to do with his ultimate quest. Am I right with that grant? Like, if he's on a grail quest, why does he care about supporting the King of Frankia against the Hungarians?

[A]

Primarily because at this point in time, the Hungarians are pagan, and so there's this valence of the religious war. Right. He does talk about wanting to protect Germany, and it's hard to separate out the Wagner of it all. Yeah, that would certainly be anachronistic. There's no reason why a knight of the Grail, as such, would be interested in Germany as such.

[C]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

However, in a time period where a lot of the conflicts are understood as being pagan versus Christian, you can understand why the Christian knight would be defending Christianity against the pagans.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, there is. There is a weird conflation here. And. And in an awful lot of Wagner. In fact, there is a conflation here between divine purpose and the destiny of Germany.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's hard from our point of view on this side of history to not see the terrible end point that that leads to historically. But also it was tied up with ideas of liberalism and not necessarily democracy per se, but something approaching democracy, the idea of a people's right to self determination. And so there is a bit of complexity here of the uniting of virtue, of Christian flag waving, of a certain kind of nationalism and of course the Norse paganism that does underlie fundamentally a lot of that Nordic, Germanic and German nationalism.

[B]

And besides the political here, I'd like to point out that from a music history vantage point, Wagner's certainly not the beginning of an operatic, strong operatic tradition in Germany. But he's also not coming at it as say the Italians did in the 19th century. Opera in Italy had been centuries in the making. But the German music operatic tradition on a grand scale is still in development. That's part of how Wagner sees himself as this incarnation of the man who's going to cement the German music operatic tradition. And you could argue he was successful with this goal and this was so important to him. It was also important to a lot of his supporters, including Franz List, the man who made sure that this opera, Lohengrin, got a premiere in the German states. Lohengrin achieves an international regard and is played by many, many countries. Shortly after its 1850 premiere even makes it to the United states just over 20 years later, New York in 1871.

[C]

Yeah, I think you're right, Both of you are right. That that's the bridge between why do we care about the Hungarians and why are we so obsessed with the political valences of this in the opera? Is Wagner harkening back to that history as a way of supporting what he's doing in his own time? And a lot of the valences that we see today of modern day Germany, really rejecting that desire to look back upon German history comes from the fact that a lot of that ended up obviously being used to support some awful things. But in Wagner's time that was the way to glorify the project of German nationalism.

[B]

Meanwhile, back on stage, Ortrud is going to reveal her true colors. Everyone's excited for this wedding. Ortrud has been subservient to Elsa and Ortrud all of a sudden is going to do what appears to be an inexplicable about face as far as Elsa's concerned and say, you terrible woman, do you think I should be subservient to you? How dare you act so proud. How dare you support this man who just showed up out of nowhere. Do you even know who he is? Can you name him?

[C]

Once again, no lies told here. Though Elsa has been a little. My faith is better than your faith.

[B]

She has been quite proud of herself.

[C]

She's been very proud of herself. And she doesn't know this guy. He did just show up out of nowhere, as we said. So although Orchard is doing this, we know it's for evil aims. I can see why this would sway the populace.

[A]

And there is a sort of interesting big picture question here of in the end of the day, this is a play about faith and in whom and how and why you have faith. And it's an interesting question because to have no faith in anything in life is to be utterly adrift. We have to have a certain amount of trust and belief in, at the very baseline epistemology, but also a certain amount of trust for the people who are dear to us, who care for us, a baseline expectation in institutions that we interact with. But faith, blind faith, is profoundly dangerous. And even the institutions that will tend to glorify faith, particularly religious institutions, are for very good, historical, psychological, practical reasons, very skeptical of where exactly that faith is placed. Yeah, the religions that place the most emphasis on faith, whether you're talking about the various monotheistic religions or certain varieties of Pure Land Buddhism or whatever, they are very conscious that it matters what you place your faith in. And particularly in the monotheistic tradition, placing your faith in institutions of government or the state or commerce or individual human beings, and idolizing them, literally idolizing them, is. Is profoundly dangerous. And so there is something really interesting here of this God man who has appeared and he is God man, kind of things going on. He's. He's got a little bit of Dionysus from the Bacchae showing up. And everyone needs to recognize his power or else. And it's tied to this idea of religious faith. But there is a faith in him and his personal greatness which can, by many definitions of Christian, Muslim and Jewish faith be seen as very problematic and perhaps opposed to faith in the divine, particularly exclusive faith in the divine.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I was struck by how similar how he's presented and how he's talked about in some parts of this opera are to the way Faust is talked about or the way in the Ring's progress, the devil who comes in, like, there's not really that big a difference between what he comes in and promises these people. He promises them glory in battle, love. He's handsome and godlike. And we know, because we know the opera, that he is a trustworthy figure. And he is a broadly trustworthy, I'll say. Figure. But I can understand why there could be, like, it should be a little bit of skepticism that this guy comes in and solves all your problems and promises you glory. Because honestly, that's not really what we know of what religious saviors generally come in and promise. Promising martial glory is not really the original story of our savior. In fact, literally the opposite.

[A]

Very much so, yes.

[B]

Here, Lohengrin, the shiny knight. He will attack verbally, Ortrud. But his greater concern is with Elsa. What does Elsa believe? What is Elsa going to do? She defends herself for taking Ortrud in by saying she was weeping. I took pity on her. That seems to be a virtuous move on her part.

[A]

Put a pin in that for when we come to Parsifal.

[B]

We will have to get to Parsifal. We will. But Loen Grin says, no, no. She's poured poison into you. She has corrupted you.

[C]

Now, once Orchard has been sort of brushed aside by both Elsa and the knight Telramund enters as. Just as a reminder, he's not supposed to be anywhere near anything. This is illegal for him to even be around.

[B]

He's been exiled.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. He claims, and this is a bit of an interesting little legal claim on his part. He claims that the trial by combat and his defeat was illegal was invalid because the knight doesn't tell his name. And it only works if you're fighting between two established citizens of this country. So the fact that he doesn't reveal who he is means that they don't know if he's a citizen. That's a little bit of an interesting legal argument. Not what he originally said he was going to attack the knight upon, but he's clearly been consulting a lawyer. Then he also says, oh, and I also accuse you of being a sorcerer. He demands that the knight say what his name is, otherwise the trial by combat has to be invalid. And the knight, of course, refuses. And he reasserts here, the knight Lohengrin, that the only person who can make him reveal his identity is Elsa. And that goes back to what we talked about earlier. He has made a pact with Elsa in some way that is binding to him. And it's not anybody else that can make him reveal it. It's just her. And so, once again, it hinges upon her faith, not the faith of the People, not the faith of the King, but her faith in him specifically.

[B]

Yes. And there's a wonderful piece of music here where he explains that it's only. I only care about that one opinion. Elsa's. Then he prays to heaven, guard her heart from every change. Let not suspicion taint this maid. And here you get a little glimpse of this person who doesn't seem like a regular man, almost seeming like a regular man. He's praying to God that his wife remains faithful. Well, his almost wife. He's praying that she will remain faithful, she will be true. He seems to be happy to be here in this land with her and her love. And at this point, Elsa, to the assembled people, remains firmly behind her man.

[A]

And in a certain amount of tension with everything we've said about Lohengrin as a political figure, as this person who's come in and he's running the country and leading them into battle and all the rest of that. From Elsa's standpoint, there is an extent to which believing in him is believing in herself. He is this sign of her innocence. She knows she's innocent, even though the world has been telling her she's not. But there is some extent to which, from her point of view, she knows she's innocent. Something that was apparently and clearly a miracle takes place to prove her innocence. And so there is an extent to which believing in him is a certain measure of self knowledge and self belief for her. It's not the same situation as with anybody else, but. But looking at it as a psychodrama, from her perspective, it is a little different.

[C]

Yeah, that's a good point. I love the way that Wagner has this operating on two levels, which is the level of the grand and the magical and the political. And then also on the level of is your wife going to be faithful to her husband? And as you said, that faithfulness is an expression of her own goodness. And there is obviously intention here. This idea of, well, are women fickle? Are women murderers? Are women ortrude?

[A]

Are women witches?

[C]

Are you an Ortrude or an Elsa? Right, yeah. Are you a witch? Are you a good Christian woman? And there is a sense in which by cleaving to her husband, she is also cleaving to Christianity. And in fact, there's more than a little valence of the nun here that being a bride of the Christ figure is what will save her here. And all she has to do is keep faith.

[B]

But she will say, a little doubt is stirring in me, but only if I knew his secret, I would keep it with him. In a way, she's saying, I will be his other half. If I'm his wife, I should know about him, I should know his secrets. And she realizes this doubt is creeping in. She believes in him, but wants to share his life fully with him.

[A]

Sa.

[C]

See

[B]

her,

[A]

Sam.

[B]

And now, Act 3, the final act of our three act opera by Richard Wagner, Lohengrin Grant. You referenced a very famous choral piece here in this opera and this is where it shows up.

[A]

Yes, and, and I said, and I think this is true. This is perhaps the most famous bit of music from any opera. And the reason why is it is the piece of music commonly known in our culture as Here Comes the Bride. It is the bridal chorus. It is the music that is commonly used in Western culture and many cultures influenced by Western culture to mark the moment where the bride walks down the aisle before getting married.

[B]

Yes. And in contrast here, it's a beautiful piece of music, of course, familiar to most of the listeners, I imagine. But here it is the beginning of where things are going to go wrong between this couple. They have already been married. And we are seeing the bridal chamber. Traditionally, it's festooned and decorated with a big bed. There it is, their wedding night. We are in the bridal chamber of the newly married couple, Lohengrin and Elsa von Prabant.

[A]

So hard to get privacy these days.

[C]

Yes. And first, everything seems lovely. They express how much they love each other.

[B]

It is so sweet.

[C]

If the opera ended here, we'd all be great. But unfortunately, but also very humanly, what Ortrud has said to Elsa has. Has left an impression on her mind and she starts to sort of obsess over the fact that he has this secret and she doesn't understand why and he won't explain explain why. And I feel for her because I think in some ways this is often slightly misogynistically framed, as you know, women, just so curious, etc. Can't leave well enough alone. But I think it's really not a woman thing. I think it's a human thing. Especially when someone says I have this secret and you can't ask me about it. Of course, that's the thing you're going to obsess over. And in a sense that is the difference between Lohengrin and Elsa here. Elsa is very human in her reactions and Lohengrin obviously has this sort of semi divine aspect to him and seems above it all. But she starts to just poke a little at him and saying, oh, well, you know, my name sounds so Lovely on your lips. Why can't I say yours? And what if you just told me when no one else was around, and I'll never say anything to anybody else, Right?

[B]

Because she wants to support him. She wants to be in partnership with him.

[A]

Him. And this is what nicknames and pet names are for my friends.

[C]

If she just called him Baby, it would have been fine. But she can't. She cannot hold out.

[B]

And in this conversation, one of the things he says is, I came here to be with you. I left joy and splendor and a magnificent situation. And this really hits the wrong way with her. Oh, well, then you do want to go back to your magnificent situation and leave me here. All the speed

[C]

and lighten I lead.

[A]

Sa.

[C]

And unfortunately, as these things always go, just as Psyche to her Cupid cannot resist looking upon his face and ruins her situation. Or Orpheus loses Eurydice because he looks back at her, even though it was told to him that he couldn't, she cannot stop herself from breaking this bargain. And she finally asks him for his name.

[B]

It's heartbreaking because he tries so hard. He sees where she's leading up to, and he tries so hard to talk her out of it, unsuccessfully. Because the harder he tries to talk her out of it, the more she's like, no, no, I need to know. I must know.

[C]

I find this so interesting because it's not completely random, but it's a little random that this is the thing, that there's this condition that has been placed upon this marriage, that he has come and said, this is the bargain I've made for you. And I think in a lot of fairy tale stories, the bargain is often very irrational. It's like, I'll give you this, but now you can never turn left ever again. It's like, why? It's just. It's just to be irrational and to be scary. It's frightening because there isn't logic in it. And I think that's part of the unfairness of this test, is that in a very Christian way, you're being asked to have blind faith. And in a way that is deeply illogical. And so she fails this test. But I have deep sympathy for her, I guess, is what I mean.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And also in this scene, entering into the bridal chamber, where they don't have a lot of privacy, it seems Friedrich and his four friends burst in. He's ready to take his revenge then and there and kill Lohengrin. Well, you know how that's gonna work out.

[A]

He gets straight up Polonius Yeah.

[B]

But it is Elsa, his partner in life, or so she wants it to be at this point, who hands him his sword. And I think that's significant too. She does help him out here. But at this point, it's over. She's asked. He directs the four henchmen, who are now terrified that they're going to be killed as well. Take this man's body to the king. We'll talk about it there. He tells Elsa's ladies, who have rushed in amidst all this tumult to dress her up nicely so that she can be presented in front of the king. And next thing we know, we are in that very same place where we began the opera. The king is there, the nobles are all assembled, they're getting ready to go to war after all. We heard about that from the herald earlier, and Lohengrin has some stuff he needs to say.

[C]

So we're on the banks of the river once again, where the swan has floated our knight into the picture, and they've brought everything and laid it at the king's feet once again, as in the beginning, including a body this time. Yeah. Tonamon's corpse is brought in and laid at the feet of the king. And our unnamed knight asks for the king to make clear that that is legitimate, that he's legitimately slain Telramund in battle, and also asks that Elsa it be clear that his wife has broken her compact with him. And she comes forward. I feel very bad for Elsa in this scene. Yes, she comes forward and she's kind of lost everything here. And honestly, just from a legal perspective, obviously, it doesn't seem that their marriage was ever consummated because all sorts of people rushed in and made all sorts of trouble. So this marriage is invalid now as well. So in a way, everything that's happened is kind of invalidated. They haven't performed the last bits of the spells. The Traba combat is invalid because he's not a citizen. The marriage is invalid because it's not consummated. And now this pact is invalid because she has broken it. So Lohengrin comes forward, says Elsa has broken her promise, and says, I will tell you who I am. And he discloses his identity as a knight of the Grail, as we mentioned in the beginning, in a beautiful piece, he sings about his connection to the Grail quest.

[B]

Yes. This piece is a long narrative by Lohengrin. It's beautiful. We'll play a piece of it for you. It is called usually the Grail Narrative or Lohengrin's Narrative. And. And we get all the backstory that we've been wondering about the power of this Grail, how does it work? And he tells us a lot of information about how it works. Once a year, a dove descends from heaven, and it brings strength to the Grail. And the Grail then gives power to us, and we must guard it.

[C]

The two things that are important here about Lohengrin's quest. Well, let me say three things. One, who he is. He is Lohengrin, Knight of the Grail, and his father is King Parsifal. We have mentioned Parsifal many a time here, and I think if you love the Grail and you've already seen that Indiana Jones movie, this is the thing you want to check out next. And perhaps stay tuned for a podcast about that in the future.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, that was Parsifal.

[C]

But there's a few conditions of being a Grail Knight, and I think of being specifically Lohengrin. He has been sent here to protect a woman who's been unjustly accused. That. That's his particular, you know, Spider man shoots webs. I protect unjustly accused women. That's my. My way of being a superhero. But also that there's some laws. Once again, we got some legal stuff going on here that there's laws of being a Grail knight, and one of those laws is that you have to be anonymous and kind of like a video game. If somebody figures out your name, you immediately have to return home and you can't do any more questing and you have to start all over again.

[B]

Lohengrin has told us who he is, what his name is, who his father is, what his job is, why it matters, how it works. He is. He has spilled it all. He has told us everything. And Elsa, who has heard that now he must leave. Protests no, my husband, don't leave. Don't leave me.

[C]

But the swan boat waits for no man.

[B]

Elsa's going to greet this news, this realization, by calling it a horror. The swan is here. But Lohengrin simply says, my beloved swan.

[C]

Lohengrin also tells Elsa that not only has she lost him, but she's lost her brother. She could have gotten her brother back, is what he says to her. He's like, yes, I've got his horn and his ring and I've got all his stuff. And I knew him, and you could have gotten him back if you'd only trusted me and waited a year.

[B]

A year. One of those magical fairy tale things. You had to wait a year, but you Couldn't do it.

[C]

Right. Because once again, she's involved in things that she doesn't understand and have conditions that don't really make sense. But that's where we are.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The more that I talk about this with you all, the more I think that's what comes through to me more than anything, is there's this real logic and ethics of fairyland as a part of this story, more so even than Christian versus Pagan. There's a real old fashioned fairy tale logic here. And poor Elsa is really suffering for it. She learns that she's kind of lost everything. She's failed all the tests, which she

[B]

didn't even know what the rules were. Completely.

[C]

Right. She only knew one rule.

[B]

Certain restrictions were given to her, but not an understanding of them.

[C]

Right. And so Lohengrin says, okay, well, peace, sorry. And he starts to leave. And then Ortrud appears because we need a last gasp from her. And she tells Elsa that actually, this swan here is your brother.

[B]

I recognize him from the chain around his neck that I placed there.

[C]

Yeah. And right. So we learn that Ortred has been the person to curse Gottfried originally and turn him into a swan. What? Which is true.

[B]

True.

[C]

There's a lot of, like, here's all the information we've been keeping from you all at once in this scene. So she tells Elsa that the swan is actually Gottfried. She's cursed him. And I don't. I have to be honest, I don't really understand why Ortred does this. Because it's in her interest that, I mean, her husband's been killed. True. Like, so maybe her plans are all.

[B]

I mean, it's like, why does the bad guy explain everything to James Bond? When James Bond is near his end? The bad guy thinks, yeah, she reveals it all.

[C]

She reveals it all, what she's done. And also that she's a witch and

[A]

that she's exacting the vengeance of the gods. That they abandoned their ancestral gods and this is their punishment, which, to be

[C]

fair, they have done. But, you know, of course, she's just literally said, I just did witchcraft. So all the people go witch and they point at her. And then Lohengrin says, well, okay, here's one thing I can do now that all this has come out. I can pray to God to turn this swan back into a man. And he does. And young Godfrey turns back into himself and is declared to be the duke.

[A]

No more swan.

[C]

And then Orchard is, at least in the version that I watched, she gets drowned as a witch.

[A]

Oh, wow. In the river in the stage directions, it just says that she falls with a shriek, which is honestly very Wicked Witch of the west of her.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I think either one works. She just.

[B]

Just dies of.

[C]

Of death.

[B]

She just dies.

[C]

Well, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that going around because, yeah, Elsa does the same. So we see her brother is there, Lohengrin is leaving. Conveniently, a swan comes down. Or, sorry, a dove comes down. Different white bird comes down from heaven and says, I'll lead your boat. Something, you know, without the swan, how is he gonna get home?

[A]

You need a bird for your boat.

[B]

But okay, isn't the dove meant to represent the Holy Spirit here?

[C]

It is, but I think there's a little bit of funniness here with the let's change out the birds and the guy. I almost think you have to laugh just a little bit because there's a little bit of hysteria happening here at the end.

[A]

Also, swans are a lot bigger than doves.

[C]

Well, yes, also. Right. One dove.

[B]

The Holy Spirit is strong, though.

[C]

At least Aphrodite had a whole bunch of doves that would pull her carriage. So maybe it's multiple doves, who knows? Lohengrin gets back in the dove. Or doves lead his chariot in the water, not home, but to the castle of the Holy Grail, so far away. And he disappears in a blinding clap of white light. And Elsa falls to the ground and dies of grief. And that is opera.

[B]

Her last words, the last words of the opera. Mine husband, my husband.

[A]

And Lohengrin's last words are, oh, by the way, this guy that I just made appear from the swan, he's your new rightful lord. Everybody follow his instructions.

[C]

Bye bye.

[B]

It really is okay, we shouldn't laugh. This is a tragedy.

[C]

But it's. I. I think Wagner here has maybe overshot himself a little bit. That's what I'm trying to say is that it is. I feel like the tragedy is some. When I watched it, I thought the tragedy was quite disrupted by the fact that you've got kind of this circus menagerie of birds shifting around on stage. And also you get this just, I'm outta here from Lohengrin.

[A]

And there is this like, Shakespeare comedy ending nature to it. Yeah, the Shakespeare comedy where everybody's on stage and everything gets revealed and everything's worked out. That is kind of what happens here. We get all the characters surviving, all the surviving characters in the same room. They all explain exactly what their deal has been the whole time.

[B]

And there are various bodies strewn on the stage.

[A]

As characters die, bodies are strewn on the stage. That's more of the Shakespeare tragedy. But yeah, the idea of it all gets hashed out all at once and there's a lot of gasp, double gasp, triple gasping going on.

[C]

Yeah, it's the language of melodrama here at the end, and the language of opera in that we have a beautiful, pure, innocent young woman die of grief.

[B]

That's the last thing we do well. Wow, this really makes me eager for our conversation about the opera Parsifal, which will probably be some months hence.

[A]

If you wanted to know more about Lohengrin's dad.

[B]

Yeah, Parsifal, his dad. I would like to say, Kathleen and Grant, I have had a delightful time with the both of you talking about Wagner's Lohengrin. Thank you, Kathleen.

[C]

Thank you. Always happy to be here.

[B]

Thank you, Grant.

[A]

It's always so much fun.

[C]

Sa.

[B]

Anchored the.

[A]

That. Ra.

[B]

Thanks for listening to another episode of Opera for Everyone. I've been your host, Pat Wright, joined

[A]

by Kathleen and Grant. If you've enjoyed the show and would like to hear more, please subscribe to the Opera for Everyone podcast on itunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

[C]

Opera can be challenging, but everyone loves a good story, and a story set to music is even better.

[B]

Our mission is to make opera understandable, acceptance, accessible and enjoyable because we believe opera is for everyone.