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- [00:02]
A
Christine talks to Ben, the winner of the three pound division of the latest NHRL event, on this episode of Outside of the Box. Everyone's first fight at NHRL is always like, dumpster fire in mine. I fought Berserker and they, like, tore out my receiver and absolutely murdered my robot. So that is always kind of just how that goes sometimes. I can't really believe I have this. It's kind of hard to believe that foreign.
- [00:31]
B
And welcome to another episode of Outside of the Box. And we're talking about the last NHRL event in March, and more specifically about the winning robot and driver in the three pound division. So I have been here to talk about Showtime and be amazing run that you had. So welcome to the show.
- [01:00]
A
Thanks for having me on.
- [01:02]
B
Yeah, for sure. One thing that I always think is interesting, and I think that that's why I found, like, your run to be so compelling, is because when you have an event where you have robots the likes of Chainsaw Kitty and Lunatic, it's really easy for some other robots to get lost in the conversation of who could potentially win the whole. I think when you look back on Showtime's pedigree and how you've done in prior events, it's done really well and, you know, certainly should have been in that conversation. But, you know, again, sometimes robots that have maybe gone farther or had more wins can overshadow that. How were you feeling about Showtime going into the event, knowing who you would potentially have to compete against?
- [01:53]
A
Well, I felt really good in the robot overall. I thought it was getting better each event. I didn't really think this would be the one to really go all the way. I did. I thought there was a chance I could eventually, like, qualify this year. I was hoping if I really went at it, that I thought it was doable, but I was. I just come off, like, what were two events that were like, statistically a little worse for the robot. So I was thinking, like, this will be a fine event. I'm hoping to get to, like, maybe round of 16 and just boost the ranking a bit more before April. So hopefully April would be less bad. So I was surprised it went as well as it did, but I was very happy with it, of course.
- [02:32]
B
Yeah, I'm sure, because, I mean, when you look at your past NHRL events, at least, you know, last year you had made the round of 16 twice, and February, like, round of 32 really isn't bad. You know, I would say by most builders standards, that's a pretty decent performance. So. But yeah, I totally get what you're saying, that if you had had a couple that maybe weren't as good, that you were thinking, oh, you know, like, hey, I'm gonna do well, but maybe not go all the way. So let's kind of get into the. The fights that you had. I believe the first match in the qualifiers was against Road Rage, which is a bot that I think may have been new. I'm not really familiar with it, but it did end up being a tap out, and I'm pretty sure that they weren't able to continue after that. So talk a little bit about that being your first fight. I mean, that's probably the best that you could hope for is getting a tap out.
- [03:33]
A
Yeah. So Road Rage, it was a new robot, it was built by, it was a father son team, and they had like a really massive beater bar on the front of it. And I believe they were gonna have UHMW uprights, but there was like. I don't recall exactly what the issue was, but they had to run nylon ones instead. So that was kind of just some bad luck there on their part. As for the fight itself, the uprights on their robot just like failed really quick when I hit the weapon. And then I. I'm a bit fuzzy on exactly what happens, but eventually they tapped after I hit them a few times. I want to say, like, first off, the driver, the son portion of the father son team was like, was a bit upset with how it went. And I feel like that was fair because a lot of it was like, you know, bad luck because of the not having UHMW uprights. But I do want to say, like, the robot, everyone's first fight at any trail is always like dumpster fire. In mine, I fought Berserker and they like tore out my receiver and absolutely murdered my robot. So like, that is always kind of just how that goes sometimes. But I do think their robot has a lot of potential because the beater bar is like terrifying and it was massive and made me very scared to go weapon on weapon. And I'm always like, very nervous in the first fight of nhrls. But yeah, that was basically how the fight went.
- [05:00]
B
Yeah, yeah, it'd be like, kudos to them for coming and bringing a bot and, you know, having something that sounds like it could be pretty good, you know, with some work and some iteration and things like that. But yeah, you always have to kind of be wary of those big beater bars for sure. Now in your second fight, I believe you got Division V4, which I think to me is. Is always interesting with the different iterations of division. So tell me a little bit about that fight. I believe you got a knockout in that one. Yeah.
- [05:35]
A
So at the last NHL I'd fought reach for it, but also was a hub motor in Prince and it was a really fun fight, but they ripped out my weapon by knocking the nut off the robot. So I was very scared of division doing that exact same thing. So the plan was basically target the forks and shots on the wheels, if I can take them would be good. But immediately division box rushed me and I did not expect this. So they got some really good shots on the robot. And I believe the second deepest cut into my armor that I've ever had. They cut like along. I have the robot here with me, so I'll just kind of. They cut like right here and they cut almost entirely through it and barely didn't hit the wheel. So then I decided I'm just going to go weapon on weapon and win with lower axis theorem and spinning fast. And that worked out. I hit them pretty high. My forks I found were a bit sharp that match and were getting stuck in some more things than I wanted. So I ground them down after that, but I hit the hub motor. I forget exactly what I broke on it, but I broke something on the hub motor and then I just slowed down the pace, hit them around a bit until eventually their robot died and I took the knockout. So it was scary, but just well placed shots seemed to work out.
- [06:54]
B
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes that the. The fight goes that way. You'd love to see it. Now I'm curious to get your take on this because the, you know, once you get the two wins, obviously you move on to the bracket. And it wasn't always set up to have a play in round. You know, at one point in time you just went into like the. The actual rounds and there wasn't a play in for you because you did so well in the qualifiers. You didn't have to compete in the play in round. You automatically in the round of 32 for you. Do you feel that that is a benefit? That like maybe you do have to sit around and wait a little bit longer, but that that's one less fight that you have to go through. Or would you rather just keep fighting and kind of keep fresh with like, you know what you're doing with the robot?
- [07:44]
A
I actually prefer it slightly. I've had both experiences. My first NHR went 2 and 1 to get to bracket that the other, what has it been three now? I guess I went 2 0. I like the 20 better because sometimes the damage you take in the second fight can, like, be really rough. Like my third NHL or second NHL I went to, I fought through Slicey, so had a lot of damage also. It can. It's just. It's like a one part of the day where I know I can watch some fights, too, because usually there's enough time for that, and I really like doing that. So it usually just makes the NHL feel a bit more chill in the middle of the day, which I always like. So, yeah, I prefer it.
- [08:21]
B
I would say most people do, but it's a question that I always wonder because, you know, everybody has their preferences now because you got to sit and wait. I don't know if you were able to watch the previous match with your first opponent, RX7, when they fought Thunderbird, they did get a tap out in that fight. So, I mean, you know, fairly tough opponent for being able to get a tap out. How were you feeling about that, and what did you think about the fight that obviously you were able to get a knockout.
- [08:54]
A
So RX7. I did watch their Thunderbird fight. I watched that one on Brett Zone because I was finishing configs for the config for the robot at the time, but they were concerning. And I had, like, sort of mixed feelings on the match because I knew I outreached them enough that I thought would matter. But they're. They had really. They had a really unique shape for revert with, like, really long corralling forks on each side, and I knew I could thread the needle between them, but not by much, so I thought I should try. My goal, I thought, would be going straight on because they were also another hub motor. I think I could kill the weapon if I got the right shots. I outreached it, but the concern was, like, if they sweep to left or right, they can really get under me and push me around. So I was. I fortunately, did thread the needle and also killed this hub motor very quickly and was able to eventually get them stuck on their head after they'd used their unstick to take the knockout. But it was like a very weird geometry of vert that was sort of uniquely scary because I've not fought one in that shape before.
- [09:54]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, definitely a good fight. And whenever you get a slightly different version of an archetype, I think you do always have to think about that for a minute. But obviously that was great that you were able to get the knockout and move on to the round of 16 where you fought Titanium white. And I think anytime that you fight a robot like that, it's, you know, oftentimes it does end up going to a judge's decision, which it did. How did you. How do you feel like you managed to get the win in that one? Because I think it is kind of a challenging robot to fight.
- [10:33]
A
I'd say it's. I just didn't let them pin me with the torch or. And get any shots on, like, belts in particular, was what I was worried about. And also just. I think my ground game was the right choice against them because I was able to get under them pretty much every time, and they were actually upside down a very good portion of the match. So their forks didn't help. And I was able to hit the forks directly and tear a bunch off of them. And I was pretty sure I was not going to knock them out because there's so much TPU on that robot and they have, like, titanium at the front where the torches. So I was pretty certain I was not going to knock that robot out. And the builder also did tell me, like, a minute in their flame went down as well. I don't remember if the builder said I did that or it just happened. Okay, I'm gonna assume it just happened from just, like, bad luck or something, but either way. So the torch was out of the game pretty early. I actually didn't notice this until very late in the match, but that was also helpful. And I just tried to stay, like, square, not let them get any shot, any turn on the side or anything. Just make sure I was pointing the weapon at them at all times. Spin slow, don't have the gyro be too much. And it worked out.
- [11:43]
B
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Now, going to the quarterfinals, your next opponent was power on. And I think power on as a robot that has always showed a decent amount of promise, but just hasn't really had that run. And this was the event, you know, where it did have that run. We're obviously going pretty deep to that point of the competition. How are you feeling? Because, you know, like, like I said, it's. It's an interesting robot to fight. And I think when. When builders have. Have had a lot of competitions with the same robot and they finally, like, get that run, sometimes it can be hard to stop that momentum, but obviously you were able to. To stop that and get a knockout in that case as well.
- [12:30]
A
So this was another one where I sort of had mixed feelings. I'd fought them in November before, which was relatively recent, but the fight was also really short. I sort of just outmaneuvered them at the start and cut the belt to their weapon in that fight. So I didn't really have a ton of data to go on. But I know my tip speed on the robot is very fast, so I knew I could out tip speed their beater bar if I needed to. So I wasn't sure if they would box rush me like last time or not. I thought if they did, I try to outmaneuver. If they don't test a weapon, a weapon early and then just try to outmaneuver, outmaneuver them after that. If it went bad and if it went good, I just force weapon on weapon again. And I knew they were also having a good day. And I'd seen, I watched their fight. I believe it was against grand in the round of 16. And it was like a really weird back and forth fight. So I had like some bit of a baseline for how fights with them would go. Fortunately, at the very start of the fight, like first hit, I was able to take the belt out. So at that point I just like slowed down the weapon a bunch and just slowly engaged with them. Tried to test how the forks dealt with the seam because I was probably gonna. There was a good chance I used. I would use those again because I knew the next opponent would either be Usagi or Lunatic. I wasn't sure who was gonna win, but I would probably run the same force against Lunatic if I'd won. So I was wanted to test the forks at that point as well. But power on was surprisingly really fast, I noticed, and a lot faster without the weapon, of course, because they didn't have to deal with the gyro. So they were like interesting to sort of catch when they were on their. On their wheels normally. But eventually I just. The damage stacked up and I was able to get them knocked out like very close to the end of the fight.
- [14:12]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean that had to feel great too. Like not just to get the win, but at that point you knew you were moving on to the semis, which is both a good and bad problem to have. Because good, you're moving on to the semis, but then you're facing some of the scariest robots in the entire tournament, Lunatic being no exception. This is obviously a robot that I've seen fight in person multiple times, and I knew going into it that it was going to be a very difficult robot to beat. How were you feeling about it? Because I know that you've been in at least one competition that Lunatic was in before, which was the Circle City Clash last year. So how were you feeling about it?
- [14:57]
A
I was pretty sure this was where my run would end. Regardless of who won, Usagi and Lunatic both really scared me. I think both of them. I think actually Usagi in particular would be a really bad match for me, but Lunatic was also a pretty bad match for me. So I was pretty sure it was going to be done here, especially since like I. I had watched Lunatic's fights at Circle City and they were terrifying. And it was probably the match that going into it was the most scary. I was scared pretty much of every match really, but this one was like uniquely terrifying. I also know that Zach does a lot on this robot that really optimizes its electronics and I knew they were good. So like my plan was again, I knew I could out tip speed him and go really fast. You know, the hope was similar to power on. It's like test the weapon on weapon early. If it goes not favorably, spin up to full speed. If it go. If the subsequent ones don't go well, then try to outmaneuver. So the first hit of the match I lost the engagement on and I was spinning at like 70% speed. So for the first time in any match I've ever had, I went at 100% for like a long amount of time to win because I have never lost a tip speed engagement at 70% before, but I did in this fight. So I won a few of the follow up hits. And then he got like a hit, I believe on my upright and it launched me on top of the Brett. And then while I was on the wall from the Brett moving away, he hit my fork on I think the left side and bent it up, which high centered part of my drive slightly. So I was very worried at that point. So I just kept pointing at him, kept it 100 speed and was able to get and win the engagements. And we just kept going weapon on weapon. And I was like trying to hit maybe an upright or something less bad. I ended up hitting the pulley on his robot and took the V belt out. So his weapon was dead. And at that point I just, I should have. Okay, I didn't actually slow down the weapon immediately, which was a problem. Later I kept it 100% for a little longer than I should have. I wasn't thinking. And eventually I slowed it down to 60. I also should have slowed it to like 40 or something. And then I just like hit the robot around a bunch. I eventually high centered him on a part of his robot. I forget exactly what it was. But then near the end, he got called an unstick from Brett, and the Brett pushed me, like, across the arena to get me out of the way, and my robot was kind of, like, stuck there. I had drained my batteries almost completely in this fight at the end, so both of us could barely move. Well, he couldn't move at all because he was high, centered, and his weapon was dead. I could move a tiny bit because I still had some for enough for, like, a little motion, but the weapon was not spinning for me at the end, which was. So I pushed those batteries and had to throw them in the sand button at the end. I definitely, in the future, will not be pushing the weapon as much as I did when I don't need to. But, yeah, that was a very scary fight.
- [17:50]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I would have been personally terrified. But, you know, like you said, both of you were in pretty bad shape by the end, but obviously, you did enough to get the judge's decision, which put you in the finals versus Chainsaw Kitty. I mean, again, pretty. Pretty scary fight to go into because Chainsaw Kitty has been very optimized over the time of that robot's existence. So I want to get your thoughts on the. On the fight overall. To me, like, my biggest takeaway from the fight is because I know that there were a lot of people that didn't quite understand the judge's decision, and my biggest takeaway from that is that that was kind of a perfect example of the change in the judging criteria, that if you're pitting somebody and you're not really doing any damage, that you're not intending to cause harm, and therefore, you're not scoring points for that. And so maybe in the old judging criteria, that fight goes a different way, But I think based on the new judging criteria, it made sense what the outcome was. And I think just, you know, both of you had an amazing fight and kind of gave it your all, and the decision ended up falling your way. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on the fight as a whole.
- [19:12]
A
Yeah. So I. I mean, I wish the entanglement didn't happen, of course. And I also wish Chainsaw could have used a fresh weapon shaft, so we could have had, like, the full fight without any weird stuff going on. But my take on it, I think the entanglement stuff is weird because the fight really comes down to does my weapon count as working or not? Because all the attack scores were in favor of Chainsaw Kitty, which is. I agree with that. I Think that's correct. Especially since they got. They flipped me over near the end and that's what particularly, I believe turns the attack towards them. Because even under, like, the new attack rules, like, that counts for something. So I would say there is technically a rule that does say under this and with what entanglement happened that my weapon would be counted as working. I don't love that. That rule is really hard to find and I think under any circumstance they should have tested my weapon. I'm pretty confident it worked because it was just the belt that was really stuck in there. We were able to pull it out afterwards, but they should have tested the weapon in the cage if they wanted it to count as working. I don't know why that's not in the rules. And personally I would prefer, like, if there is an entanglement, that they just pause and undo it like a lot of other leagues, because it's not really something you can design around. It just happens sometimes. I couldn't. I felt at the time like I just couldn't do anything and like, it was difficult and I didn't love that. There was no solution NHL had for that. But as for the fight, it's. It is hard to tell whether old or new judging would change the result. I think old probably would because I think this entanglement rule is new. Especially if the entanglement rules new. Old would definitely change the result. I forget if it is or not, to be honest, but it was a weird fight. I wish the weird stuff didn't happen and hopefully I can fight well. I say hopefully I can fight Keen Sakuri again, but I would be horrified to do that. But as for, like, I don't know any prep for the fight, I went back to like my normal fort config instead of using the anti beater ones. Plan was spin faster than them, try to get angles on their front. It's really hard to hit. Like, Chainsaw Kitty is really recessed uprights that are very. It's very hard to hit anything but the weapon. So I wanted to force it to be the weapon. And I wasn't quite sure how our forks would interact. I think based on later interactions that the fork interaction slightly favored Chainsaw Kitty based on, like, what happened in the pushing portion of the match. But yeah, it was just a really weird final. And it's kind of unfortunate that it turned out that way. But yeah, it's how it goes sometimes.
- [21:44]
B
Yeah. Yeah, it does. And I mean, either way, like, it's one of those. Those fights that honestly like, no matter what the result was at the end, I could have probably been, like, I could. I could see that because it was really, really close. But obviously it had to be an amazing thing for you to get that dumpster, especially an event where you weren't necessarily expecting to get that far. How was, like, the. Just that overall feeling of that accomplishment with this robot, you know, after having. I would know that you've done events outside of nhrl, but I mean, like, you know, your, like, third time taking it out is pretty good. Or fourth. Third or fourth?
- [22:27]
A
Yeah, it was the fourth one. It was a really amazing feeling. Even though, like, I knew the final was going to be controversial, I was like, I didn't really care at the time, and I still feel like even. Even if it was a finalist finish, I would have been super happy with it. So I was really happy with how it went and qualifying the world was, like, my goal this year. I thought it would be hard to do, but was possible and, like, within reach and. And to do it so early in the season is really helpful because I can go to all the other events without, like, this threat of qualifying or not looming over my shoulder. And just, like, I can't really believe I have this. It's. It's kind of hard to believe that. It's also been, like, a while since WPI had dumpstered in the three pounds, and I believe, like, we have several robots that can and could have earlier. And I think, like, obviously dumpstering, there's a lot of luck. You just need the right matches, the right times and for the right things to happen in those matches. That always happens in, like, every run. I think hopefully WPI, one of our other £3, can do it this year. I think there are several that have really good chances, but really good chances. As dumpsters go, of course, they're hard to get for everyone, but yeah, it was really motivational to see, like, that the. The team can still dumpster in three pounds and that the robot is actually working like I wanted it to.
- [23:44]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Then I guess, because I know you were talking about April earlier. So you're planning on bringing it back for April?
- [23:52]
A
Yep. It's in both April and May, which will be interesting. The hope was I was really hoping I could get the rank, like, high enough for April between February and March that it would be less scary and that the seating would work out better. But it's always. It's always scary to some extent. So I think my rank is definitely going to go up a good bit. For April now. So I will be in a nicer spot. That will give me hopefully less terrifying opponents. But eventually they always get terrifying. And every fight in itself is terrifying because anything can happen. Any fight, as long as an opponent is there, you can break yourself in a million ways. So I think it's, it was just hopefully it would be less scary. But it's still gonna be scary.
- [24:40]
B
Yeah, it always is because you just really never know. And like you said, the further that you get into the bracket, you're. You're going to be fighting scary robots. It's just a, it's a fact. But I mean, maybe now with the, with a dumpster, then you'll have people scared to fight you, which is a whole different problem to have. So, yeah, it's, it's exciting. Obviously, we'll be excited to see Showtime back at NHRL and seeing, you know, if you can duplicate or come close to duplicating the same success from the March event. But yeah, either way, I think, you know, it's going to be a great run and wishing you the best of luck with that.
- [25:24]
A
Thank you. I'll definitely try to recreate the run. I doubt it will happen, but I'll give it my best shot.
- [25:31]
B
Yeah, that's all you can do. Well, you know, for folks that are watching, obviously tune in to April nhrl and see if showtime time can, you know, two time repeat as a dumpster winner. We shall see. And also of course, like subscribe, share, follow, engage with this channel here and keep sharing and spreading the love of combat robotics. And we will see everybody next time on the show.
- [26:07]
A
Sam.