Episode 8: “The Boogeymen”

Summary

---

Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders

Episode 8: “The Boogeymen”

Date: April 10, 2024
Host: M. William Phelps
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts

---

Overview

This climactic episode of Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders winds together four decades of heartbreak, obsession, and investigative grit. Host and investigative journalist M. William Phelps confronts primary suspect Jack Linney with an unflinching, deep-dive interview, and then details law enforcement’s concurrent efforts to finally solve Shawna Garber’s murder—revealing a different “boogeyman” than previously believed. Layered through these interviews is the harrowing psychological web created by unclosed cases, false leads, and the lasting trauma on both victims’ families and investigators. The episode tackles the elusive nature of evil, the toll of suspicion, and the complicated, sometimes surprising truths that emerge from tenacious police work.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Revisiting the Serial Killer Angle: Larry Dwayne Hall

• Larry Dwayne Hall, a notorious (but never-murder-convicted) serial killer, is reconsidered as a suspect.
  • Hall’s MO and the infamous “white van” seen at the scenes seemed to fit both Dana Stidham's and Shawna Garber's abductions. ([01:42], [02:58], [04:13])
  • Detective Laurie Howard interviewed Hall personally.
    • Hall denied involvement in both cases.
    • Denials seem credible given his history and provided alibis.
    • Hall did, however, falsely claim credit for another high-profile case (the “Springfield 3”), suggesting a complex relationship with the truth. ([04:47]–[09:41])

"He immediately looked at [Shawna’s photo] and he said, ‘She’s not mine.’ Said, ‘Did you kill her?’ and he said, ‘No, she’s not mine.’"
— Detective Laurie Howard ([04:57])

• Phelps concludes Hall is not the perpetrator, but remains struck by the resonance of his and his partner’s profile with early evidence.
  • Hall’s effective concealment of bodies is highlighted as a reason he’s never faced murder charges.
  • Hall’s exclusion refocuses the investigation onto Jack Linney. ([11:12])

---

II. The Linney Interviews: Confrontation and Psychological Pressure

Phelps conducts a persistent, often uncomfortable interview with Jack Linney, pressing him on previously inconsistent statements, possible connections, and forensic findings.

A. Linney’s Denials and Shifting Statements

• Linney initially answers direct questions with adamant, “Hell no,” but becomes more ambiguous and evasive as the discussion continues. ([14:45]–[16:30])
• He alternates between claiming no knowledge of the victims, then suggesting fleeting acquaintanceship or total amnesia.
• On being pressed about his presence at critical locations, Linney repeatedly denies knowledge, and becomes physically ill when asked about the crime scene. ([22:58]–[24:05])

B. Behavioral Red Flags and Emotional Cracks

• Linney does not directly deny sexual harassment allegations.
• Exhibits odd silences, heavy breathing, and emotional dysregulation—at one point, appears to have a panic attack or vomiting episode while still on the phone. ([28:47]–[32:48])
  • Parallels are drawn between his reactions during the interview and an episode reported by his ex-wife where Linney vomited when Dana's case was mentioned on the news.
• When challenged with evidence about his whereabouts and forensic findings, Linney gives inconsistent responses or attempts to deflect:
  • Admits to being in the area after initial denials; supplies a potentially false explanation of why his DNA could be at the crime scene (urination in the woods). ([42:15]–[44:18])

"I was just Anthony too."
— Jack Linney, after being pressed repeatedly ([26:36])

"Talking about this was making Jack Linney sick to his stomach."
— Narration ([32:48])

C. Disturbing Bravado and Lack of Remorse

• Linney makes a thinly-veiled threat to Detective Howard: “I only kill people that are by themselves.” ([42:15])
• When asked about remorse: “Why should I?”
  • Detective Howard responds, “That’s exactly what Dennis Rader said to me.” ([46:30])

D. Law Enforcement Follow-Up

• The day after Phelps’ phone call, Detectives Laurie Howard and Rhonda Wise confront Linney at his home.
  • Linney is at turns smug, evasive, and oddly forthcoming, revealing knowledge of the crime scene he’d just denied.
  • He later calls Howard multiple times, alternately making threats and vague admissions.
  • He never offers a straightforward confession, but his statements and mannerisms reinforce suspicions. ([40:37]–[46:40])

---

III. SHAWNA GARBER’S MURDER: A BREAK IN THE CASE

After following years of misleading or partial evidence, Detective Laurie Howard and Detective Rhonda Wise officially close Shawna Garber’s murder case by identifying a new perpetrator: Telfy Reeves ("TR").

A. New Evidence and Timeline

• Garber, after aging out of foster care, was working a job in Missouri—transported by van.
• Van did not bring her home on the night of her murder; she was walking along the highway when picked up by TR and another person. ([57:05]–[67:45])
• Forensic clues (napkin, towel, coax cable) are linked to the Ginger Blue Inn, which was on TR’s regular path but not his workplace.
• Multiple witnesses corroborate:
  • Garber was abducted, bound, raped, and silenced with a “hot shot” (forced overdose) after screaming.
  • Her body was left in proximity to TR’s house.

B. TR’s Profile and Community Fear

• Reeves is described as a violent, drug-fueled individual with a legacy of suffering among those close to him.
  • "He was evil. He was pure evil." — Detective Howard ([63:34])
• Witnesses only came forward after TR’s death in a car accident, underscoring the fear surrounding him.

C. Key Takeaways and Misconceptions

• Prior rumors of post-mortem mutilation were proven false—no breasts cut, as confirmed by autopsy and multiple witnesses.
• There is now "likely no connection" between Garber’s and Stidham's murders.

"I know you’ve worked hard…These girls are deserving."
— Detective Laurie Howard ([44:40])

---

IV. Reflections on Cold Cases, Guilt, and Justice

• Phelps and former prosecutor Nathan Smith conclude with the imperative of never giving up on cold cases. ([71:53])
• The psychological weight of investigating such tragedies on law enforcement and involved parties is underscored.
• A sense of resolution for Shawna, with lingering determination for Dana’s case.

"We have to value human life, and we can't simply forget about it because it's old and hasn't been solved yet."
— Nathan Smith ([71:53])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Detective Laurie Howard on Larry Hall’s denial:

  "He immediately looked at [Shawna’s photo] and he said, ‘She’s not mine.’…I knew immediately that Shawna was not his." ([04:57])

• Phelps on Linney’s reactions:

  "He was nauseous and whimpering, and if you listen closely, you can hear movement. He's doing something. Any mention of the crime scenes produced the biggest reaction." ([35:44])

• Linney’s chilling bravado to Laurie Howard:

  "I only kill people that are by themselves." ([42:15])

• Detective Howard’s assessment of Telfy Reeves:

  "He was evil. He was pure evil." ([63:34])

• Howard's reflection on Shawna:

  "She’s completely invisible. And I say that because there's no one cared enough to even take a picture of her. And I don't know why that bothers me, so. But it does." ([64:48])

• Nathan Smith on cold cases:

  "It can be a small key that unlocks a door to an avenue that no one knew was there." ([71:53])

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• Hall as Suspect; Interview Details: [01:42]–[11:12]
• Phelps’ Confrontational Interview with Linney: [14:45]–[37:42]
• Law Enforcement Confronts Linney: [40:37]–[46:40]
• Shawna Garber Case Closure / Reeves Identified: [54:22]–[71:05]
• Analysis of Reeves' Evil, Community Fear, and Final Witness Accounts: [63:29]–[70:58]
• Reflections & Closing Thoughts: [71:53]–[72:58]

---

Final Thoughts

This episode masterfully compiles decades of investigation, psychological drama, and new revelations. The closure of Shawna Garber’s case is a bittersweet victory borne of persistence and courage, offering truth—and a sliver of peace—to her memory and those who sought justice for her. The episode leaves listeners with both a sense of resolution and of ongoing pursuit, as Dana Stidham’s murder remains unsolved and haunted by the specter of its own “boogeyman.”

---

Transcript

[Detective Laurie Howard]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Jack Linney]

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and.

[M. William Phelps]

Everywhere but your AI can't use the.

[Jack Linney]

Data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

IBM helps your AI access your data.

[Jack Linney]

Wherever it lives to change how you do business.

Lets create Smile to business IBM.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points.

You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract for $250,000.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Someone will be eliminated.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

Pressure is coming down.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

This is Trainer Games.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Watch it on prime video starting January.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

8Th come for the Black Friday seasonal savings stay for the award winning reporting For a limited time access to the Washington Post is just 99 cents. That's unlimited access to all of the posts for only 99 cents every four weeks. That's a great deal for the first year. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime. But don't wait. This Black Friday seasonal offer won't be here for long. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart and grab this deal before it's gone. That's washingtonpost.com iheart.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

In the last episode, we heard a conversation with suspect Jack Lenny. I must admit my gaze is turned toward him, but before continuing down that path, I needed to look into another rather infamous serial killer who could potentially have been tied to the murders of Dana Stidham and Shawna Garber, one who was active at the time in the area. At another point in the podcast, you heard about a witness reporting a white van parked by behind Dana Stidham's car during the early evening hours after she left Philip's Grocery. Two men were seen standing behind or near her car and that van. In January 2024, I learned from a law enforcement source that a white van had been connected to Shawna Garber's murder as well. It was part of an interview solving Shawna's case after 30 plus years, which will unpack soon. That van parked behind Dana's car plagued my thoughts, bringing to mind one very specific high profile psychopath, Larry Dwayne Hall.

Hall is a serial killer, yet he's rare in that he's never been convicted of a murder. One university study on hall claims he could be responsible for upwards of 5050 or more abductions, rapes and murders. The guy is doing life for the kidnapping of 15 year old Jessica Roach and transporting her from Illinois to Indiana for purposes of sexual gratification. The subject of the Apple TV drama Blackbird, Larry hall was arrested in October 1994 and has been in prison ever since. With his mutton chop sideburns and backwoods gomer pyle like Persona, hall spent a considerable amount of time behind the wheel of his light colored van, trolling for victims throughout the midwest and south during the late 80s and early 90s. He claimed his extensive travel was centered around the civil war reenactments he participated in. Hall often traveled with a man he was very close to, a co conspirator in many of his crimes.

Larry Hall's method of abduction is very similar to what we saw in Dana Stidham's case. And according to some new information I've received, the kidnapping and murder of Shawna Garber. Hall often tooled around suburban neighborhoods in his creepy van, following women, riding bikes, jogging or walking, then grabbing them at just the right moment. A young woman alone with her car broken down on the side of the road would have been Hall's ideal situation to strike.

Detective Laurie Howard, who you've heard throughout the podcast, interviewed Hall a few years ago at Buckner Federal prison in North Carolina.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

I went and talked with Larry hall and I actually was worried when I talked to him that he might say that I did this just because he really wanted to please me. You know, I knew when I went in there he probably wanted me to stay and I knew that he wanted to talk. So I was kind of concerned that he would do just the opposite of what happened. I thought he might say, you know, yeah, it's, she's mine. And. And I was concerned about that. What actually happened is I slid Shawna's photo across the table to him and he immediately looked at it and he said, she's not mine. Said, did you kill her? And he said, no, she's not mine. So I was surprised. I really was concerned that that's not what I would get. So I knew immediately that Shawna was not his.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Hall warmed up to Laurie. He came across polite, talkative, and rather open to the idea of discussing crimes he's been accused of but has never been charged with. Detective Howard pressed Hall on Dana Stidham. Considering how the circumstances fit, especially that light colored van report and two men lurking around, potentially hall or and his partner. It can also not be overlooked that Pea Ridge, Arkansas, a Civil War historical site, is very close to where Dana's body was found. Hall, for his part, denied having any part in Dana's abduction. And. Or murder and said he was not even in Peerage near the time she disappeared. And did you believe him?

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Larry, interestingly enough, has the reputation for being a false confessionist, if you will. Although I don't believe that's the case by any stretch of the imagination, but he has that label.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

The thing that nagged at me about Larry hall and Dana's case is that Larry often worked with a partner close to him, a guy very close to him. And he also drove around in a van. The cliche he did.

[M. William Phelps]

And two guys who could fit Larry's description and his partner were seen in.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Back of Dana along with a van on the day she disappeared. So that worried me. So what did he say about Dana Stidham's case?

[Detective Laurie Howard]

He wasn't anywhere around during that time frame. He said I wasn't there. There wasn't a reenactment. I actually checked all of that. So there was no reason to put him in the area at that time frame.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

I've obtained never before heard interviews with Larry hall and delved deeply into his crimes on my other podcast, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps. In a two part special outlining the monster Larry hall truly is. You see, hall had a penchant for young girls, kids really, and he stuck mainly to the Midwest, Illinois and Indiana, his home state, sometimes even going into Iowa. As you can hear in this excerpt from that interview. He also groomed some of his victims.

[Witness / Background Voice]

My friend Steve brought her with him a couple times in the car. She was a friend of mine, Steve's friend. My name. Steve knew her. She was a. She was only 12 years old. She was missing too. He was a little, little bit older than me. I met him at a little shopping mall down there by Lebanon, Indiana, where the. There's a bus. The buses come in sometimes. Now I met her a couple times, but I didn't know her mom or nothing. I used to hang out with them in a little park down there sometimes. You know, I don't remember. I didn't know the last name, but Debbie, I believe, but I'm not positive. I can't. Can't hardly remember.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

The guy loved to play the ignorant card, but believe me, he knew and he remembered all of his victims. These guys, they do not forget. That's one reason why they sometimes take trophies. A little reminder of each and every one of their victims. As Detective Howard was interviewing hall, he brought up another unsolved case. A big one.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

The other thing is he immediately turned around and told me, but I did kill the Springfield 3.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

On June 7, 1992, the parents of 18 year old Steve Stacey McCall contacted the Springfield Missouri Police Department saying their daughter had disappeared from the home of 47 year old Cheryl Levitt, along with Levitt and Levitt's 19 year old daughter Suzanne Streeter. Upon officer's arrival, the Levitt house showed no signs of forced entry or a struggle. But the three young women were gone as if plucked out of their lives in the middle of a normal day. All their personal property had been left behind. Purses, clothing, money, cars, keys, cigarettes, even the family dog. None of them were ever seen again.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

And that I had reason to believe there might be some validity to. And I say that knowing that it's not my case beyond what he told me. But I know in his van he. There was evidence that had a map that had this area that had Branson that had an X on it. I know there was evidence to corroborate that. And there was a reenactment for those particular murders. But there wasn't anything in the van that would include Dana or Shawna.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Larry Dwayne hall is evil incarnate. But I don't think the evidence supports him being the evil I have been chasing throughout this season. The reason Larry hall has never faced murder charges is because as horrible as it sounds, the guy was able to hide the bodies of his victims very well. And as you know, neither Dana or Shawna were really hidden. With all this evidence in hand, I could confidently exclude Larry hall as their killer and continue down the road of Jack Linney.

Previously on Paper Ghosts.

[Nathan Smith]

It seems to check all the boxes.

[M. William Phelps]

For a sexual predator. Going into the the store with a.

[Nathan Smith]

Hood on their face, standing behind the women, boggling them, making circles around the.

[M. William Phelps]

Store, sneaking up behind them, waiting for.

[Nathan Smith]

Them in the parking lot after work, following them on the highway, trying to pull them over. In some cases groping them.

[M. William Phelps]

I just remember being in the basement.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Of this individual's house.

[M. William Phelps]

There had to been like a.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

A hundred spools of different cords. I mean, I don't know who keeps cords. I don't keep cords.

[M. William Phelps]

But it just was pretty ominous.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible. None of them are impossible. If it was impossible, we'd probably stop trying. But this can be solved. And it will be.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

My name is M. William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist and author of more than 40 true crime books. This is season four of Paper Ghosts. The Ozarks.

In getting Jack Linney on the phone, I saw an opportunity. Maybe the only One I would get. Go at him hard, I told myself. Hold nothing back. Put the evidence from Dana's and Shawna's cases on the table and. And see how he responds. Like Brandon Howard, the journalist you've heard throughout the podcast, who I might add, has built a strong case against Linney over the course of many years and helped me more than I can express here. I flipped back and forth throughout my investigation. I couldn't stop wondering if all this circumstantial evidence pointing to Linny was nothing more than a single of coincidences and an overactive sense of suspicion centered around a creep. I think you have to second guess yourself if you're doing due diligence. And I was reminded that law enforcement dropped the guy as a suspect in 1995 and never spoke to or pursued him again. Talking to Linney, however, began to change my mind. And it's hard not to take what happened during our conversations and the events that took place afterward as decades of pent up guilt finally leaving the body of this cocky son of a bitch. I want to go back to that phone call you heard at the end of the last episode and pick up where we left off.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

So you had nothing to do with Dana Stidham's murder?

[Jack Linney]

Hell no.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Did you know Dana Stidham?

[Jack Linney]

Hell no.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

There's the other case in Pineville. Grace Doe, Shawna Garber murder. What about her case? Any connection to her death?

[Jack Linney]

Hell no.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Stark defiance and obvious anger, but within it, an emphatic how dare you sense of denial. At least at the outset of our conversation.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

You were interviewed a few times and brought in, and they searched your place and came after you pretty damn hard. Am I right?

[Jack Linney]

Yes.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Why was that, you think?

[Jack Linney]

I have no earthly idea. They were. They were hunting for somebody, for a scapegoat.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

There are a few ways to deal with a hostile source, especially one who's a strong person of interest. I am not a cop, clearly. And I do not solve murders. My aim always is to develop new information and try to help families find answers. Then I hand that information off to those qualified to solve cases. Jack Lenny was never going to like me. And I could not have cared less, so I could use that personal disdain to my advantage. Repetition is a good way to get what you want in situations like these.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Did you kill Dana Stidham?

[Jack Linney]

What do you think?

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

I think. I don't know, which is why I'm asking.

[Jack Linney]

I don't either.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

His answers become ambiguous and suspicious to a fault. Why not just say hell no again? Why the Games. Why not say, look, you have the wrong dude. I didn't do anything. How can I help you? Why not hang up the damn phone? After all, he knew I was recording the call.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Now, if I might ask, the sheriff's office seemed to think that you might have actually known Dana Stidham.

[Jack Linney]

Why?

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Well, I have reports and statements and lots of witnesses that claim you hung around the Phillips Grocery and that you knew Dana Stidham.

[Jack Linney]

I don't know.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

What do you mean you don't know? Do you remember Dana? She worked at the store.

[Jack Linney]

No.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

I have a problem with this. Are you certain you didn't know her?

[Jack Linney]

No.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Going back to his second interview with bcso, Detectives Varner and Sidoriak. Linnie was the one who brought Dana up and knew exactly who she was.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

But why would they go after you so aggressively if you didn't at least know her or run into her at the store? I mean.

[Jack Linney]

Because they were looking for a scapegoat and they thought I would be the one because I was all over this area.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Okay, so you worked construction or something like that, and you were traveling all around Bella Vista area at the time. Is that correct? Is that what you're saying?

Hello?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

This theme of Lenny going quiet on me would continue until something extremely bizarre happened.

[Jack Linney]

No.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

So you didn't work in the area?

[Jack Linney]

Yes, but not then.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

That's not true. Wasn't it in 1989, 1990, you were working in and around Bella Vista?

[Jack Linney]

You're correct.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Okay, so you're saying that you had nothing to do with Dana's abduction and murder, then? Is that your statement? Is that your response? You don't know who killed her?

[Jack Linney]

Not done. I don't know why she was killed.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

For a guy who had started out our phone call by saying he knew nothing about Dana's murder, I began to understand that his temperament was. Wouldn't allow him to walk away without explaining himself.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

The reports, your interviews with the Benton County Sheriff's office, the forensic evidence found in your vehicle, the cables and bindings found in your house. You were at the Phillips a lot. In fact, on the day she went missing. And you were reported as possibly talking to Dana in the parking lot.

I gotta ask again. Did you know Dana somewhat from.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

I have no earthly idea to knowing her somewhat.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

And then she's later found murdered. I mean, they seem to think that you were their guy. I'm just trying to explain all these coincidences lining up against you. Sure you didn't see her the day she went missing?

[Jack Linney]

No.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

So this is all Coincidental, then circumstantial. You had nothing to do with Dana Stidham's murder?

[Jack Linney]

No.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Are you sure about that? Because the evidence says otherwise.

[Jack Linney]

As much to do with the murder as you did.

Did you have anything to do with her murder?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

It became increasingly clear as we chatted that the mere mention of Dana's case triggered a strong reaction. Especially when. When I began to touch on the evidence. And yet he would not hang up on me.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

I live on the East Coast. I wouldn't have had the opportunity.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

But you did, sir.

[Jack Linney]

All right. I might as well live in Africa.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Well, let's talk about Panama. You went down there. Did you have some trouble while there? While you were in the service with a sex worker, what happened there?

[Jack Linney]

I remember I got.

Misunderstanding. I got a little trouble down there with misunderstanding. Some gal was wanting to know where the prisoners were kept when Noriega was empowered.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

A misunderstanding, he says. If you recall, I spoke to a sheriff earlier in the podcast who investigated the Panama allegations, and he told me Linney beat a sex worker while stationed in Panama.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

A little more than a misunderstanding. I mean, you were accused of beating a girl.

[Jack Linney]

I thought you just wanted to know about Dennis Denham and Leather. You covered them all. When I told you I had nothing to do with it.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Are you absolutely certain about that?

[Jack Linney]

I guess I wasn't there.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

But you were there on the day.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

She went missing at the Phillips grocery. That's pretty damn clear.

[Jack Linney]

It's been so long ago.

I don't even think about it.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

So you're saying that you were never at the Phillips that day. Why would people place you there then? What is the evidence backing you up when others say different?

[Jack Linney]

My word.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Your ward alone. Could you talk to me about July 25, 1989? What you did on that day.

[Jack Linney]

I could.

Remember.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

So the sheriff's office came after you and questioned you? Hard to tell you that all these women at the grocery are accusing you of sexual harassment. Following women on the way out, following them in your car.

[Jack Linney]

That's what I understand.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

He does not deny any of the sexual harassment he's been accused of.

I moved on to a subject essential to my investigation. Placing Linney at the crime scene. I wanted to get him to say he knew where it was because I knew he did.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

What about Beale Lane? The crime scene up there by Ozark Beveridge, where Dana was found? Do you know where that is?

[Jack Linney]

I don't know.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

What, you mean you don't know that area?

[Jack Linney]

Not really.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Remember what he says there. It'll come Back into play later on in the episode. At this point in our conversation, something really odd happens. He starts breathing heavily. Any mention of the crime scene I realized struck a nerve. I'd found an area of inquiry that rattled him.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Are you still there?

[Jack Linney]

Are you still there?

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

I'm here. Are you all right? You feeling okay? Do you remember that?

[Jack Linney]

I forgot all about it.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Lots of people think you killed that girl. You've never been up to Beal Lane.

[Jack Linney]

I told you no.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Again. Remember what he says for a second time? No. He'd never been up to Bialay. Not where is it or I don't know where that area of town is, but a resounding no. This answer will become very important when we look at what happens the day after I speak to Lenny.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Lots of people say different.

[Jack Linney]

They can think whatever they want to.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Let's talk about your ex wife. She was interviewed by the sheriff's office. She told him a few fairly incriminating things about you. Like you were acting strange around the time Dana went missing and around that time when she was found her body murdered. You got physically ill once when her case was mentioned on tv. How do we explain that?

You there.

[Jack Linney]

Thanks for that mess.

We got a divorce.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

She was scared of you. That's what I believe. What kind of person was your ex wife?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

He describes her by using an insulting racial slur, which I will not allow in this show. So I changed course.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

You spoke with police twice. You admitted seeing Dana that day in the parking lot. You said you might have known her. You tell me you didn't know her.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Which is it?

[Jack Linney]

No.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

According to the reports, you were well aware of this case as it was happening. After they questioned you a second time, they asked you to take a polygraph. There was a lot of activity around you for a time there. They were really hot on you. You know this. They came at you hard.

Did you kill Dana Stidham?

[M. William Phelps]

You there?

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Speak to me.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

He doesn't say anything for about two minutes. Then you've got all this information.

[Jack Linney]

Then why did you ask me if you already knew? Stupid, wasn't it?

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

I'm just asking questions. You don't have to talk to me.

[Jack Linney]

I'm just Anthony, too.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

I wanted to be certain he was consenting to the interview as part of the podcast. So I put it out there again.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Well, I'm recording this from my podcast. Paper Ghosts.

[Jack Linney]

I don't care.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

You kill that girl.

[Jack Linney]

I know I didn't.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

It's important at this stage to go back to Shawna Garber's Case. In the last episode, you heard a vulgar caller, who was later allegedly identified as Jack Linney, threaten to cut off the breasts of the woman on the other end of the phone. In early 2024, law enforcement revealed to me that Shawna got Garber's killer. Cut her breasts off after binding her and injecting her with a hot shot. An intentional forced overdose of heroin.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

No knowledge of what happened to Shauna Garber.

[Jack Linney]

Who?

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Shauna Garber.

You never picked her up? Hitchhiking?

[Jack Linney]

Never matter.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

She was likely hitchhiking, was murdered, her body dumped on Oscar Talley Road in Pineville, Anderson, Missouri. You familiar with that area?

[Jack Linney]

I don't know.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Several minutes went by with nothing but heavy breathing.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Did you kill Shawna Garber?

[Jack Linney]

No.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

I got a sense he was beginning to feel the weight of what we were talking about. It was clearly worrying him to dredge all of this up. It had been 31 years since law enforcement spoke to Lenny here. Now, three decades later, he's having a visceral reaction, a panic attack, essentially, at the mere mention of these cases.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

You okay?

[M. William Phelps]

This interview bothering you?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

And then as things escalate, with his breathing increasing, he does something incredible. Something, in fact, you've heard him do before, when the murders of two young women were put right in his face.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

You are the fittest of the fit.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract worth $250,000.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Someone will be eliminated.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Pressure is coming down.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

This is trainer games.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Watch it on prime video starting January 8th.

[Witness / Background Voice]

Shh.

[Meco Mini Plus Advertiser]

You won't believe what my new friend just told me about dinosaurs. Is your child having conversations you never imagined? Are they learning without realizing it? It's not a tablet. It's not a toy. It's Meiko Mini plus, the AI powered companion that turns curiosity into endless learning. Hear the future of playtime. Meet the extraordinary Meco Mini Plus. Only at Costco.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

Come for the Black Friday seasonal savings. Stay for the award winning reporting. For a limited time, access to the Washington Post is just 99 cents. That's unlimited access to all of the posts for only 99 cents every four weeks. That's a great deal for the first year. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime. But don't wait. This Black Friday seasonal offer won't be here for long. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart and grab this deal before it's gone. That's washingtonpost.com iheart.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

When we are anxious or stressed, we feel it in our gut. It's simple physiology. We've all been there. Uncomfortable situations and dare I say, feelings of guilt can exacerbate a condition known as stress nausea. We've been down this road before. Within the investigation into Jack Linney. Remember that back in 1993, his ex wife told Detective Danny Varner that when Dana's case came on television one night, Linnie vomited.

As my conversation with Lenny continued, I could feel the stress coming from the other end of the line. The heavy breathing, odd silences, groaning noises. The fact that he did not hang up on me. It all said something about his disposition, personality and attitude toward the murders of Dana Stidham and Shawna Garber.

[M. William Phelps]

Is this upsetting to you to talk about?

[Jack Linney]

No.

[M. William Phelps]

So there's no way you had anything to do with Dana Stidham's murder?

You alright?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

About three minutes went by. He remained silent. But every once in a while he'd let me know he was still willing to talk.

[M. William Phelps]

Still there?

[Jack Linney]

Yeah.

[M. William Phelps]

You doing all right there? This thing bringing up a lot of old feeling.

[Jack Linney]

No, it's not. I'm sick.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

There it was. The conversation had made him ill, not the flu or a cold. Talking about this was making Jack Lenny sick to his stomach.

[M. William Phelps]

I did stop over there at your house when I was in Arkansas over the summer, but you weren't around.

Knocked on the door there.

So.

Well, I was just letting you know, you know.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Why just conversation?

[Jack Linney]

I don't mean I just seen you hang up.

[M. William Phelps]

There's no evidence that can tie you to Dana's murder. Is that what you're saying? I just want to get it straight with your. You know what you're telling me. Is there anything you'd like to say to her family? Her mother just passed away.

[Jack Linney]

So did mine.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Notice he doesn't say Sorry to hear that or show any sympathy whatsoever. Instead, he takes the narcissistic route and makes it about himself.

[M. William Phelps]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

There's some people in law enforcement think you might be a serial killer. What do you think of that?

[Jack Linney]

I don't.

[M. William Phelps]

You think they'll ever find the person who killed Dana Stidham?

[Jack Linney]

I don't know.

[M. William Phelps]

You think the person is still alive?

[Witness / Background Voice]

I don't know.

[M. William Phelps]

He had nothing to do with her abduction.

[Jack Linney]

How many times do I have to tell you?

[M. William Phelps]

And you, you've never been to Pineville, Missouri? Frequented that area? Oscar Talley Road.

[Jack Linney]

What?

[M. William Phelps]

Oscar Talley Road in Pineville, Anderson, Missouri.

[Jack Linney]

I don't know where it is.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Not true. He told the BCSO he used to pass by the area all the time when he lived in Missouri.

[M. William Phelps]

I was curious about a phone call. I have a report of a girl who took a phone call. It was a very vile phone call about a man who called and said all sorts of disgusting sexual things. And then they brought her in and.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

They played her the tape of your.

[M. William Phelps]

Interview and six other guys, and she picked you out of that lineup. Do you remember making that call?

[Jack Linney]

No.

[M. William Phelps]

That wasn't you.

Do you want me to stop by there next time I'm in the area and have a chat with you in person?

[Jack Linney]

No.

[M. William Phelps]

Are you done talking about this?

Is there anything you'd like to say?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

5 minutes went by without a response, but I could hear him. He was nauseous and whimpering, and if you listen closely, you can hear movement. He's doing something. Any mention of the crime scenes produced the biggest reaction. Just how big? I was about to learn.

[Witness / Background Voice]

It.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

You all right?

[M. William Phelps]

You okay?

This subject seems to be upsetting to you.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

You okay?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

He was vomiting, but the guy still wouldn't hang up on me. He blew his nose, threw up some more, breathed heavily, but he stayed on the line. And he had literally brought the phone with him into the bathroom.

[M. William Phelps]

Should we say goodbye now? Anything else you want to say? This seems very upsetting to you.

I'm gonna say goodbye now. I'm not getting any response from you. Is there anything you want to talk about? You have my number.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

I hung up after about 10 minutes of listening to him breathing and trying to figure out his next move. And look, at this point, I certainly have not proven he had anything to do with either murder. The pressure I applied during this call might seem aggressive, but he has harassed women all his life. The fact that I gave it back to this bully, in a small way, tough shit. You want to taunt women, abuse women, harass them and follow them and stalk them and intimidate them? I am not going to hold back. This would not be the last time I confronted Jack Linney. After the call, I contacted the BCSO and let them know what had gone down. Then I called Detective Laurie Howard and explained, ending by saying this. Look, he's on the ropes. You had better get a few investigators over there, like tomorrow, to interview him.

Lori Howard, along with Detective Rhonda Wise and an observer, knocked on Lenny's door the following day. And you know What a difference 24 hours can make?

[Trainer Games Announcer]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points.

You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract for $250,000.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Someone will be eliminated.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Pressure is coming down.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

This is Trainer Games.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Watch it on prime video starting January 8th.

[Witness / Background Voice]

Shh.

[Meco Mini Plus Advertiser]

You won't believe what my new friend just told me about this dinosaurs. Is your child having conversations you never imagined? Are they learning without realizing it? It's not a tablet. It's not a toy. It's Meco Mini plus, the AI powered companion that turns curiosity into endless learning. Hear the future of playtime. Meet the extraordinary Meco Mini Plus. Only at Costco.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

Come for the Black Friday seasonal savings. Stay for the award winning reporting. For a limited time, access to the Washington Post is just 99 cents. That's unlimited access to all of the Post for only 99 cents every four weeks. That's a great deal for the first year. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime. But don't wait. This Black Friday seasonal offer won't be here for long. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart and grab this deal before it's gone. That's washingtonpost.com iheart I obtained a recording.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Of the interview Laurie Howard conducted with Jack Linney the day after I spoke to him. However, because Linney did not consent to me using it, as he had from my calls with him, I need to.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Summarize, so I need to know if I can pick your brain. I'm here to talk about a gal by the name of Shawnet Barber. I'm hoping you can help me go back.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

After introducing herself, Detective Howard mentioned Shawna Garber, which was her doorway into what Linnie had to say about Dana. Linnie used the word scapegoat yet again. What's important is that he sounds different. He's laughing and joking, being a smart ass, almost gloating. When he talks to Laurie, Lori asks him, if you didn't know Shauna or Dana, why did the BCSO just randomly pick you to drag in for an interview? He says, quote, I was at the Phillips grocery store a lot. Laurie then tells Lenny the BCSO has his DNA, which he interprets as a sample he gave them back in the day. She clarified by saying she believed that they had found his DNA on Dana. He shrugged off the statement. He then mentioned that I had called him the day before, referring to me as a joker. Here's Laurie explaining her Interaction with Lenny on that day and several days after the visit when he began calling her incessantly.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

And then he just reminds me that he is a killer. And he never once told me that he wasn't a killer. And so, you know, I basically reprimanded him and said, well, you know, essentially, I don't hear you're a killer if you're not going to go into detail and tell me about that. So he switches gears, and I think it's probably in an effort to regain some power or control. So he tells me, you know, I'm a millionaire. And he said, why haven't you been back to see me? And I said, well, basically, I've been in touch with you, or better yet, you've been in touch with me, and you still don't have anything that I need. And so he said, are you at home? And I said, yes. And he said, are you by yourself? And I lied. And I said, no. And he said, well, I only kill people that are by themselves. And I said, so if I was by myself, essentially you're telling me that you I would be a good candidate. He said, I just asked if you.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Were home and alone at his house that day, Laurie asked Lenny what he would do if the BCSO showed up at his door with an arrest warrant. Lenny said, quote, if they try to get in, I've got a.38 fully loaded that I sleep with. Now, if you recall, he had told me he had no idea where Dana was found, but it was when I started talking about the crime scene, the one he allegedly had no idea of, that made him physically ill. A day later, talking to detective Laurie Howard, he explained exactly where Dana was found, admitted to being out there, and even mentioned how badly her corpse smelled, referring to the smell of decomposition as sickening.

And the reason for his DNA possibly being at the scene, which Laurie had floated, he said would be because he urinated in the woods near where Dana's body was found.

As they discussed the crime scene, Laurie asked why he didn't tell anyone from the BCSO he had been out to the scene and saw Dana's body, which would have explained why. Why they had his DNA. He said he didn't want to get involved. Days later, during one of more than 10 phone calls Laurie received from Lenny.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

He says to her, I'm not afraid to give answers. He said, I'm going to die. And I said, well, before you die, why don't you tell me what you know I want to hear? And he said, I know you've Worked hard. And I said, I have worked hard. I've dedicated my entire life to this kind of thing. I would really would like to wrap this up. You know, these. These girls are deserving. And he said, I know. I'm not afraid to die and I'm not afraid to talk. And I said, well, apparently you are. And he kind of got snippy with me a little bit, you know, well, I'm giving you answers. And I said, you're not giving me answers.

So we went back and forth that just a little bit. And I said, I'm going to go, but if you want me to come talk to you and you want me to come see you or you want to continue to call me, then it's not good enough that you're just telling me you killed somebody. He also told me that the same person who killed Dana killed my girl. He referred to Shawna as my girl. He wants to tell you he's a killer. He wants to tell you he'll kill you. He point blank said it to me, if you're by yourself, I would be there. I would kill you.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

The big takeaway from the conversations Laurie Howard had with Lenny was that he admitted to being at the crime scene while Dana's body was out in the woods, but only after she mentioned that the BCSO had his DNA. Near the end of what was a two hour conversation during her visit, Laurie asked Lenny if he thought of himself as a psychopath. He responded by saying he was a crazy kind of guy. So she countered by asking him if he ever felt remorse. And he said, why should I? To which Laurie responded, that's exactly what Dennis Raider said to me.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

He called me the other night. He said, I never said I wasn't a killer. And I told him, I said, well, it's not good enough. It's not good enough for you to tell me that you're not a killer if you're not going to tell me who you killed.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

In February 2024, Lenny called me one afternoon. I waited a day and called him back.

[M. William Phelps]

You called me the other day. I was wondering, what's going on.

[Jack Linney]

Who is this?

[M. William Phelps]

This is M. William Phelps. We talked a while ago. I'm an investigative journalist looking at Dana Stidham's case. I called you and we recorded a phone call from my podcast and I saw that you called, so I was wondering, what's up.

[Jack Linney]

I probably just missed out. I didn't want anything.

[M. William Phelps]

Oh, you didn't want to talk?

[Jack Linney]

I don't know anything.

[M. William Phelps]

You don't know Anything about those cases?

[Jack Linney]

I don't know anything about anything.

[M. William Phelps]

Have you spoke to police lately or anybody like that?

[Jack Linney]

I mean, recently?

[M. William Phelps]

Within the past six months? Year?

[Jack Linney]

I talked to somebody the other day.

[M. William Phelps]

Oh, you did? What she have to say?

[Jack Linney]

She was working on another case and she wanted to know if I knew anything about it. I said no, I don't know anything about that. Or Dana Stidham either.

[M. William Phelps]

So you know Dana Stidham? We were talking before and you said you didn't have anything to do with that.

[Jack Linney]

No, I didn't. I got blamed for it. I can tell you that. Reputation, Southwest Missouri.

[M. William Phelps]

How did it ruin your reputation?

[Jack Linney]

Cause everybody thought I did it.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Nobody even knew the guy had been questioned. His name, unlike Mike McMillan's, was never brought into the case publicly. That's just more bullshit spewing from the mouth of a guy who spewed a lot of it and likes to play games.

[M. William Phelps]

What about the. We were talking about the crime scene.

[Jack Linney]

I did not talk to you or anybody else because I don't know anything. You're not too bright either. You think I know something? I don't know anything. I told you that time and time again.

[M. William Phelps]

Your name is on a lot of the reports. How come they came after you so hard? They searched your house as well. And your car.

[Jack Linney]

Right, right, right. That didn't mean a damn thing.

[M. William Phelps]

Well, they found blood in your station wagon in the front seat.

[Jack Linney]

Now, if I kill somebody, you think I'd load him in the front seat?

[M. William Phelps]

I don't know. I'm not a killer.

[Jack Linney]

I'm not either.

[M. William Phelps]

Are you?

[Jack Linney]

Why don't I just get through telling you? You're not too damn bright if you don't understand English.

[M. William Phelps]

What about the bindings they took from your house? Rope, wire, that sort of thing.

[Jack Linney]

Big deal. A lot of people have ropes and stuff in their house.

[M. William Phelps]

Ropes with a murder victim's DNA on.

[Jack Linney]

Wasn'T on it.

[M. William Phelps]

I think that's yet to be determined.

[Jack Linney]

Well, then what the hell are you talking to me for?

[M. William Phelps]

Well, you called me, so I'm calling you back and I'm asking you why you called. You wanted to talk to me. I'm just being respectful here, you know, I want. I want your. Your opinion. I want your voice and what I'm working on so you can explain yourself. That's all.

[Jack Linney]

You're explaining myself?

[M. William Phelps]

They questioned you a number of times. They questioned your ex wife, you know, your kids. They looked at your background, you know, they searched your house, they searched your vehicles.

[Jack Linney]

What they find, what they find.

[M. William Phelps]

They found blood in your station wagon.

[Jack Linney]

Whose blood?

[M. William Phelps]

Well, you tell me. Why would you have a bunch of blood on the carpet of your station wagon? I've seen photographs of it. That's a lot of blood. So where would that blood come from?

[Jack Linney]

Who knows?

[M. William Phelps]

You know, you. It's your car. If there was blood found in my car, I'd know where it came from.

[Jack Linney]

Well, you would, but I would.

[M. William Phelps]

How come?

Because it's your vehicle.

[Jack Linney]

Big deal.

[M. William Phelps]

I believe there was blood also in the back seat of the car.

[Jack Linney]

So.

[M. William Phelps]

Is that Dana Stidham's blood?

[Jack Linney]

Blood? Packing house, too.

[M. William Phelps]

There's blood?

[Jack Linney]

Where? In a packing house.

[M. William Phelps]

Is that Dana Stidham's blood?

[Jack Linney]

How should I know? Is it your blood?

[M. William Phelps]

It's not my blood.

[Jack Linney]

How do you know?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

It was a stupid comeback and he knew it. You might be wondering if that blood was ever tested. I asked the bcso, and despite luminol tests showing blood all over the place inside his vehicle, which the crime scene photos I have depicted, as well as indications of blood cleanup, I was told there was not enough to test. Linny was combative this time around, I'll give him that. So I decided to touch upon the subject which had caused him so much anxiety last time, see if I got the same response.

[M. William Phelps]

What about the Beale Road crime scene where she was found? We were talking about that before. Did you ever go walking through that woods or did you hunt there or anything?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

More of the same. Silence and noises.

[Jack Linney]

Hello?

[M. William Phelps]

I think you went quiet last time we talked about Beale Road. In the woods there. From what I'm told, they have your DNA found out there. I think this happened last time we chatted.

I asked you about Beale Road and the crime scene where Dana was found. And last time you got sick. This time you're just silent, I guess. I'm gonna hang up now. If you don't wanna talk, you have my number. You called me. So.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

You are the fittest of the fit.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract worth $250,000.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Someone will be eliminated.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Pressure is coming down.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

This is Trainer Games.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Watch it on prime video starting January 8th.

[Witness / Background Voice]

Shh.

[Meco Mini Plus Advertiser]

You won't believe what my new friend just told me about dinosaurs. Is your child having conversations you never imagined? Are they learning without realizing it? It's not a tablet. It's not a toy. It's Meiko Mini plus the AI powered companion that turns curiosity into endless learning. Hear the future of playtime. Meet the extraordinary Meco Mini plus only at Costco.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

Come for the Black Friday seasonal savings. Save Stay for the award winning reporting for a limited time access to the Washington Post is just 99 cents. That's unlimited access to all of the Post for only 99 cents every four weeks. That's a great deal for the first year. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime. But don't wait. This Black Friday seasonal offer won't be here for long. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart and grab this deal before it's gone. That's washingtonpost.com iheart.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

It's rare that as you work on cold cases in the capacity I do, a case breaks wide open for you as you are investigating. But that is what happened as I worked on this final episode. In early March 2024, Detective Laurie Howard and Detective Rhonda Wise, with the help of others, finally solved and officially closed Shawna Garber's murder. And what was first thought to be a gruesome manner of death, as I had mentioned, turned out to be false. Shawna's breasts were not mutilated after all. Thank God for small mercies. I had been told about this new suspect, Telfy Reeves, during the summer of 2023. The guy was a real shitbag and hit every marker your average psychopath would.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

There was never any manner of death in the autopsy report. The strangulation was supposition based on a lack of other things.

But yes, having worked a great deal, my partner, Deputy Wise and I, and especially lately, I'd say within the last six months, we have spent every day, all day long working on this. And the reason is because we've developed a suspect. That suspect is no longer alive, unfortunately. But what it did do when he passed, it opened some doors for people to come forward that wouldn't come forward prior to so this suspect in Shawna's case, and for now I'm just going to call him T.R.

But I anticipate a press release coming forward very soon.

So he is now a suspect. I now have people talking and I have finally, I think I say I. But we have placed it and put it all together in the puzzle that it is. And I think we got it.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

That press release did come on March 21, 2024, and this narrative you were about to hear regarding Shawna's murder fell in line with Shawna seemingly being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the devil lurking in the shadows. We've discussed the likelihood and we now believed that there is likely no connection to Dana's case.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

What we believe happened to Shawna.

She aged out of the foster care system, and as we found out, she was adopted early on, somewhere around the age of six. Her adoptive parents, we call it a failed adoption because Shawna had a lot of mental and a lot of physical problems. She went back into the foster care system somewhere around 85, 84, 85, 86. She left a foster care situation. The caseworker is known to have told family members that. That she was going to go stay in Oklahoma, which was a piece we didn't have for a long time, but she was going to go stay in Oklahoma because she had family there. We searched to a dead end, basically, on the family members in Oklahoma, which made me at first question it. But then I realized we're probably not talking about her biological family. We're not even talking about her adoptive family, who, more than likely we're talking about her last foster care family's extended family, because that's really all she had.

So she winds up in Oklahoma, interestingly enough, in the Vanita Claremore area, which is not too far from the Missouri line. We later learned that she was being transported via a work program, via a van, back and forth to a job. Now, we were initially giving bad information, which threw us off again. We were told that it was a different area and that this was in Kansas. It wasn't, but we figured out that the van that she was taking back and forth from the Vanita Claremore area was taking her, more than likely to Hudson Foods. Hudson Foods was bought out and is now Tyson Foods, but it has always been in the Knoll, Missouri area. It's in McDonald County. It actually is less than maybe two miles, a mile and a half from where she was dumped. That van was taking her back and forth from the work program back to where she was staying in the Vanita Claremore area. However, on one occasion, at least, she wasn't on the van. I don't know exactly what happened, but she didn't wind up there. And she. We were told by a witness that says TR picked her up while she was walking along that highway, which is consistent. Everybody walks Highway 59, going from Tyson's Knoll or Hudson Foods Knoll over to where she would have been found walking and where we were told she was picked up. So that's all consistent.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

There are no pictures of Shawna Garber from her childhood, teen years or later, save for one photo when she was about four years old, her toothless smile, short hair, and overall joyous expression obscuring horrendous abuse before she had even entered into the foster care system.

By March 2024, Laurie had finally latched onto, at least partially, one of the ghosts she had been chasing for 15 long years. Here's detective Lori Howard again.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

The other thing we have put together, Ginger Blue, especially in the 90s, was a beautiful vacation spot. It had a gorgeous inn. It was a thriving place, had a restaurant and a place to stay. But towards the early 90s, I should say back up and say in the 80s, it was flourishing. But when you got to that 90s area, it had gone downhill some. And she, shauna, had a material that was in her pocket. I looked at that material for a really long time and determined that it was a cloth napkin. And I could never understand why she would have a cloth napkin in her pocket unless she was working at a restaurant or perhaps she was hungry, grabbed a roll, grabbed bread, and put it in her pocket to go. We know that she had a towel wrapped around her head in coax cable, right? That towel was. It's consistent with the kind of towel, the color of towel that they had at the inn. They also had an old TV system, of course, back then, cable TV with a short coax cable attached to each one of the rooms, each TV that was in each room at the old inn. So it's consistent to say that she, at some point in time, had ended up there around that October ish time frame.

[M. William Phelps]

Did TR work at that place?

[Detective Laurie Howard]

He didn't work there, but he passed it every day.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

There was the answer to the coaxial cable and towel wrapped around Shawna's head.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

That stretch of highway, you really just can't get very far without going one direction or the other on that stretch of highway connects, well, 59 runs all the way from Anderson all the way through to Knoll and on end to Arkansas.

[M. William Phelps]

So he picked her up on the road while she was hitchhiking or something.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

While she was walking. And I don't know if she was. If she had missed the van and she was wanting to stay in that area, if she literally was just looking for a place to stay for that night, or if she was trying to get a job there. That's still kind of a mystery why she was walking that night, because the van would have picked her up, you know, dropped her off in the morning and picked her up in the evening after the shift. Could have been that she just was tired of Working and tired of living where she was living and opted to go a different route.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

And TR you know a lot about.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Him and not a great deal.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

He was a bad guy. Am I right?

[Detective Laurie Howard]

He was a terrible. I. I have one witness, five sources, and I personally knew the man and everybody that has ever known him. And I'm going to be one of those. Those people. He was evil. He was pure evil. He ran drugs, he used drugs all of his life. He had two children that passed from gunshot wounds. He had an ex wife that had a hellacious life by all accounts. I mean, just by digging into his life with her. So I. I can't imagine having this person around me. And now I can imagine why nobody really wanted to speak.

[M. William Phelps]

Right.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Because why would you?

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

I mean, Shauna crossed paths with the devil.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

She did. She most certainly did. And you know what? Of course she would.

Of course she would.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Yeah.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

If there was a wrong turn, the girl took it through no fault of her own.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Right.

[M. William Phelps]

The invisible girl.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

The invisible. She's completely invisible. And I say that because there's no one cared enough to even take a picture of her. And I don't know why that bothers me, so. But it does.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Yep.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Yep.

[M. William Phelps]

And so you develop information that TR picks her up and what happens?

[Detective Laurie Howard]

He has a person of interest with him. At the time, we were able to determine through both a witness and other sources. Now five other sources, we've been able to corroborate this story that he takes her. Now, remember, this is a drug fueled frenzy, spun out, mess with somebody that I've been told is almost bipolar, can be seemingly somewhat normal, and then just angry. So angry that you're terrified to be in his presence. So he picks her up along with another and he takes her up the road where, by the way, he lives, you can see his home by looking directly across from where she is.

And he binds her with what they have in the back of the vehicle. I think the coax cable was done initially to wrap her face so she wouldn't see what was happening. So she wouldn't see where they were going, so she wouldn't see where she was. Because I don't think he cared whether he saw her face and how afraid she might have been. I've been told that that just would have made things better for him. So I believe he did it to keep her from knowing where she was going. I think he took the towel from the inn. He used the coax cable, which I always thought was odd. Couldn't figure out why anybody, especially somebody That's a serial killer or basically a farm boy, either one. Somebody local. You wouldn't tie somebody with coax cable. It's the worst possible medium. But I think he did it just because he didn't have anything else at the time. Put it across her face and neck, and that's where that entered in. Then also from the end, she had the napkin in her pocket. He took her up to the road. They tied her the rest of the way with what they had in the back of the vehicle. I now know who that vehicle belongs to, which was a hang up for a while. They raped her. And she was screaming so badly, and so it breaks my heart, but she was literally screaming so much that you could hear the echo down the valley, and it scared them.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

This explains the screams on Halloween. Lori Howard and Rhonda Wise spoke to six different sources, none of whom knew each other, each telling the same story. This is how we know we have the absolute truth. This next part for me exemplifies and truly displays the sociopath's absolute pathology. Who they are.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

And so my witness says that he's laughing as he's telling this story later on in the evening, but they start to get nervous because somebody. They know that there's a party down the hill. They know that's a bunch of kids. They know it's a Halloween, but they start to get. They start to get nervous. So he overdoses her. Which, by the way, come to find out, is a pretty standard practice because I'm told this wasn't his first victim.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

So he gives her a hot shot.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

He gives her a hot shot.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

And then what does he do?

[Detective Laurie Howard]

He. I have my witness states that she believes, and this is according to what TR says, that he props her up. And she says she.

She thinks that it would have been on an old spigot, an old water spigot. I don't know. I can't confirm that. So I don't. I don't really want to say that that's the case. But essentially she's propped up somehow. Why? I don't know. And then TR and person of interest leave. They then go and talk to someone else, and they're talking about everything that they just did to her, and they're laughing and they think it's funny, and they're reliving every moment. Now, remember, this just happened.

And so what happens? The next morning, my witness goes next door, or I should say up the hill. And sure enough, she sees everything that she thought she would see.

[M. William Phelps]

And Shauna was dead.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Shauna was dead.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

And did they mutilate her at all?

[Detective Laurie Howard]

No. The story that was given by one source stated that she had her breasts removed or sliced. I've had more than one source come forward with TR and say, no, he did not cut her breasts off. Okay.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Thank God for small things.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

So.

[Interviewer / M. William Phelps]

Wow.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

So, yeah, I can understand why witnesses would have been afraid of coming forward until he died.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

They were terrified.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

And he died a horrible death.

[M. William Phelps]

Right. I mean, he.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

He died in.

[M. William Phelps]

In an accident.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

A vehicle.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

He did. He died in a vehicle accident. I'm told it was a horrible death.

[M. William Phelps]

Good.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

And you know what? I'm okay with that. And I. I know that sounds callous.

[M. William Phelps]

No, it doesn't.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

But on the other hand, my feelings for Shauna in any case that I work, but Shauna in particular, and I'm told I look like Shauna.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Shauna was like a daughter to you.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

She was. She absolutely was. I took her with me everywhere I went.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

You did.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

And that's because I didn't want to lose her again. I had to find her in the first place.

[M. William Phelps]

And you solved the case.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Nathan Smith was no longer the Bentonville prosecutor. He left the office during the time. I began this case years ago and finished my work in 2024, taking a job on Walmart's legal team. But the last time I spoke to him about the cases, he said a few things that I think sum up this season very well.

[Nathan Smith]

Well, look, I think that, first of all, I appreciate you doing the story, and I know there's a lot of cases around the country that are cold and have families that want answers just as badly. But it is so important for these cases to not be forgotten and to not be just shelved. And so one of the things important is there could be someone listening who knows something, who knows someone who is related to someone that maybe their entire family thinks. You know what? He's always acted very suspiciously and has all these connections. And I would just for the sake of Dana's family, I would just beg them to get that information to law enforcement or to someone who can use it. Because oftentimes in cases like this, it can be small things that make the difference. It can be a small key that unlocks a door to an avenue that no one knew was there. And we have to value human life, and we can't simply forget about it because it's old and it hasn't been solved yet.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Finding answers and resolution in cold cases requires persistence and patience. In the end, as one case was solved, the other heading in that direction, but I hold on to hope that someday soon Dana Stidham's family will get what they deserve. Justice.

Subscribe and follow the show to keep up with bonus episodes coming soon. If you appreciate the work I do on Paper Ghosts, follow my other podcast, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps, where I approach new characters cases each week in a similar fashion. I want to thank every one of my sources and those who took the time to help sit in for an interview or discuss the case with me. I can't say enough how much journalist Brandon Howard helped me out and I thank him immensely for it. I also want to thank my Paper Ghost production team, Katherine Law, Rose Bacci, Matt Russell, Brandon Dicker paper Ghost Season 4 is written and executive produced by me, M. William Phelps, script consulting by Rose Bacci, sound design by Matt Russell, executive production by Kathryn Law, and audio editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker. Takaboom productions. The series theme 442 is written and performed by Tom Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points.

You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contact for $250,000.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Someone will be eliminated.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

Pressure is coming down.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

This is Trainer Games.

[Narrator / M. William Phelps]

Watch it on prime video starting January 8th.

[Meco Mini Plus Advertiser]

Then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean. Where did that story come from? Book Dream? Nope. It came from a conversation. Meet Meco Mini plus, the AI companion that co creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time. What color was the hamster's cape and what did he pack for lunch? Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini plus and the Magic of AI Exclusively at Costco.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

Come for the Black Friday seasonal savings. Stay for the award winning Reporting for a limited time access to the Washington Post is just 99 cents. That's unlimited access to all of the posts for only 99 cents every four weeks. That's a great deal for the first year. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime, but don't wait. This Black Friday seasonal offer won't be here for long. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart and grab this deal before it's gone. That's washingtonpost.com iheart this is an IHEART podcast.

[Detective Laurie Howard]

Guaranteed human.