Like Bodies Through a Meat Grinder

Summary

Podcast Summary: Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders

Episode: Like Bodies Through a Meat Grinder
Host: M. William Phelps
Date: November 26, 2025
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

In this gripping episode of Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders, veteran investigative journalist M. William Phelps dives deep into the local rumors, law enforcement missteps, and tangled web of intimidation tactics that have surrounded the 1983 double homicide of teenagers Shelly and Vincent in Parker County, Texas. The episode explores chilling new testimonies, police incompetence, the ominous presence of organized crime, and possible cover-ups, raising questions about corruption and the reach of criminal networks in small-town Texas during the 1980s. The story also sets the stage for possible connections to other unsolved teen killings in the area.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Small-Town Tensions and Family Pain

[02:15-03:52]

• M. William Phelps sets the stage with a portrait of Parker County’s insular community:

  "Parker County, Texas is one of those places where you can't get away from the people you hurt. The type of claustrophobic atmosphere… where everybody knows everybody's business..." (02:15)

• Jannetta details a disturbing conversation with Vincent’s mother, who cryptically claimed:

  “Shelly had a cloud of death over her.” (03:41, Jannetta)

• Jannetta’s imagination is haunted by alleged police statements and her own fears about what Shelly might have endured.

2. Mishandled Evidence and Incompetence

[05:11-07:06]

• Jannetta is puzzled by the odd state of Shelly’s body and clothing:

  “How could Shelly's tennis shoes be clean and her clothes muddy if she was at some point outside the car in the rain?” (05:37, Phelps)

• Astounding anecdote: The police almost handed Shelly’s clothes—potential evidence—directly to her family:

  “The idea... is fundamentally ridiculous. Not only would it be insensitive, but... completely incompetent.” (07:06, Phelps)

• Lt. Johnny Quals, current cold case investigator, can’t confirm if the clothes ever entered evidence properly or where they are now.

3. The Viewing, the Cowboys, and Church Fire – Intimidation or Message?

[08:07-12:23, 34:10-35:47]

• At the joint funeral, two unknown men dressed in full cowboy gear attended and left without a word, soon followed by a church across the street being set on fire.
  • “Instead, they took a mental picture of the bodies, as if making sure the kids were dead, and walked out the front door together.” (09:21, Phelps)
  • “Others reported... those same two men walk across the street and into the church just before the fire started.” (10:31, Phelps)
  • “To me, it's kind of like sending a message, you know, we did it and there you are.” (10:43, Jannetta)
• Fires also break out at Debbie’s house and elsewhere in town, with threats tied to the so-called "Cauliflower case" left behind.

4. Suspicion, Rumors, and Tangled Relationships

[13:04-26:59]

• Debbie Billingsley, a trusted adult in Shelly’s life, is herself pulled in for questioning over the murders, as is her brother.
• Neighbors, family, and the podcast host consider the possibility of involvement by Shelly’s father, Ronnie Cauliflower, though Phelps is skeptical.
  • “I kind of feel that her father, Ronnie Cauliflower, was involved in it or at least knew of something going on.” (13:04, Phelps)
  • Debbie and Jannetta drift apart, possibly under the load of guilt, suspicion, and unspoken truths.

5. Infiltration, Rumors, and the Specter of Organized Crime

[23:18-26:59, 51:35-56:52]

• Debbie encounters fake police officers and is warned by real investigators not to trust them, highlighting a climate of fear and subterfuge.
• Theories abound: drug deals, rivalry, a racist motive, or romantic jealousy.
  • “Shelly and Vincent come up on a drug deal… Another rumor was… they were killed at a different location, their bodies brought back…” (24:38, Debbie Billingsley)
• Phelps introduces the theory of Weldon Kennedy, local meatpacking magnate, whose business is rumored to be a front for drugs and possibly human trafficking.
  • “Locals wouldn't actually eat some of the meat, the meat products.” (54:17, Mel Mitchell)
  • “There was up to five people that had been placed in a meat grinder at some point in time.” (53:40, Mel Mitchell)

6. Records, Missing Evidence, and Cover-Up Theories

[35:55-47:19]

• Embalming and autopsy records may hold secrets about injuries to Shelly—scratches and bruises not mentioned in the official autopsy but witnessed by many at the funeral.
• Social media-fueled rumors further cloud the truth, while old-timers and officials lament missing evidence, suspect chain-of-custody failures, and lost case files.
• Lt. Quals describes the case as essentially unsolvable because of entropy, lost evidence, and uncooperative former officials:

  “That one, the double homicide of those kids… essentially didn’t feel like it was solvable.” (42:43, Lt. Johnny Quals)

7. Police and Politics: Suspected Interference and Suppression

[47:19-56:52]

• Mel Mitchell relates that the town’s police chief at the time believed he knew who the killers were, but political connections shut down further investigation.
• Suggestion that the murders are just the visible tip of a much larger criminal or political conspiracy:

  “I've been repeatedly told… that there's a much bigger picture here than just these two kids.” (56:00, Mel Mitchell)

8. Broader Context: More Murders and Serial Killer Theory

[57:17-62:03]

• Journalist Patricia Springer covers the case of Wendy Robinson, a local teen who vanished and was later found murdered—sparking concern of a serial predator or pattern of violence against area teens.
• Infamous serial killer Otis Toole, linked to many murders across the South, unexpectedly confessed to Shelly and Vincent’s killings while in custody, raising further complications and doubts:
  • “Toole also committed many arsons as a way to misdirect investigators and cover up his crimes.” (60:56, Phelps)

9. Continuing Search for Truth

[43:37-45:55, 56:52+]

• With new leads (embalmer notes, autopsy found on a cousin’s doorstep), Phelps and his team are pushing for clarity, seeking answers amidst decades of obfuscation and lost evidence.
• The episode ends laying groundwork for deepening into Wendy Robinson’s case and continued attempts to extract truth from those still living.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jannetta on Vincent’s Mother:
  “Shelly had a cloud… always had a cloud of death over her.” (03:41)

• Mel Mitchell on Acts of Intimidation:
  “A lot of people kind of felt that was off, a little suspicious, didn’t know why they would act that way… And then, literally right across the street… someone set fire to that church…” (35:10)

• Mel on Meatpacking Rumors:
  “There was up to five people that had been placed in a meat grinder at some point in time. A lot of locals wouldn’t actually eat some of the meat, the meat products.” (53:40)

• Lt. Quals on Case Difficulties:
  “We can’t go back in time and fix any of that or preserve anything… so you really have to set out on a fact finding mission… things that we know for sure for sure, or at least fairly certain…” (39:59)
  “That one, the double homicide of those kids… essentially didn’t feel like it was solvable.” (42:43)

• Mel Mitchell on Broader Conspiracy:
  “I've been repeatedly told… that there's a much bigger picture here than just these two kids.” (56:00)

• Patricia Springer on Wendy Robinson’s Disappearance:
  “She went down there to sunbathe. She was alone and she didn’t come home… The friend called her house and no one had seen her. So it was just a mystery of where she had gone.” (59:49)

• On Otis Toole’s Confession:
  “Toole also committed many arsons as a way to misdirect investigators and cover up his crimes… Out of nowhere, Toole steps forward and claims to have committed the murders on Piss Hill that night.” (60:56)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:15 – Phelps describes the suffocating nature of Parker County and the looming pain for victims’ families.
• 03:41 – Jannetta recalls Vincent’s mother’s “cloud of death” comment.
• 05:37 – Odd conditions of Shelly’s body and evidence mishandling.
• 08:07 – Description of funeral viewing, suspicious cowboys, and church arson.
• 10:43 – Jannetta interprets the church fire as an intimidating message.
• 24:38 – Debbie details the many rumors circulating the town.
• 39:59 – Lt. Quals explains the challenges of making sense in a rumor-filled cold case.
• 42:43 – Lt. Quals admits the case was deemed to have almost no solvability.
• 53:40 – Mel Mitchell recounts chilling rumors of bodies disposed of in meat grinders.
• 56:00 – Mel Mitchell addresses the possibility of a larger criminal conspiracy at play.
• 59:49 – Patricia Springer introduces the Wendy Robinson case as another unsolved local murder.
• 60:56 – Otis Toole’s confession and police reaction.

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Conclusion

This episode of Paper Ghosts captures the long-lasting trauma, frustration, and suspicion that have gripped Parker County for over 40 years. New details about intimidation, evidence mismanagement, and criminal conspiracy keep hope alive for answers. Listeners are left questioning not just who killed Shelly and Vincent, but whether the killings were part of something even darker lurking beneath the surface of small-town Texas.

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Next Episode Preview:
Patricia Springer describes the grim discovery of Wendy Robinson’s body, hinting at a further web of violence and cover-up.

“Her father had confessed to her that he was part of the murder and then… all of a sudden he came to the forefront.” (63:15, Patricia Springer)

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Transcript

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[M. William Phelps]

Parker County, Texas is one of those places where you can't get away from the people you hurt. The type of claustrophobic atmosphere and that comes of such a tight knit community where everybody knows everybody's business. Where a sidelong glance in the grocery store or a bless your heart carries more weight than outsiders might register. And for families at the heart of this murder case, as time passed and law enforcement was no closer to solving Vincent and Shelley's murders, it all seemed to enhance the pain both families felt.

Did you and Ronnie ever get with Vincent's family and talk about stuff?

[Debbie Billingsley]

No.

[M. William Phelps]

What happened between the two of you? Anything?

[Jannetta]

Okay, one Day I had been to this police station, and then I came over to Debbie's, which she was my Bluebird assistant. She was the lady that the girl stayed with when we left. So for some reason, they show up, Glad to meet you. And the first thing that Mama says to me is, shelly had a cloud of death over her. What?

[Lt. Johnny Quals]

What?

[Jannetta]

She said, shelly had a cloud. Has had always had a cloud of death over her. When she would come to our home, she would have that dark cloud of death over her.

[M. William Phelps]

Those remarks stunned Jannetta.

[Jannetta]

So then she went into telling me. And there's two things in my head, okay, with this, and it's the way I've always thought, but there's two things I've never wanted to hear is that.

She was tortured. She was, you know, my. In my head, I don't know, I just have this vision of they're out there and they're just aggravating her, just, you know, like pushing her and outside of the car. And they tell me they were outside of the car in 83.

[M. William Phelps]

The police?

[Jannetta]

Yes, they told me they were outside of the car.

[M. William Phelps]

That strange conversation with Vincent's mother started playing like a movie reel in Janetta's mind.

Suddenly, there were all these horrific images in her head of what might have happened to Shelly.

So she contacted the Weatherford police.

[Jannetta]

And I told them, I want to see some pictures. I want to see some pictures. And he said, I got a picture of her shoes. You want to see her shoes? So he showed me her shoes. Her shoes were clean.

And her clothes were muddy.

[M. William Phelps]

How could Shelly's tennis shoes be clean and her clothes muddy if she was at some point outside the car in the rain? If you recall from the previous episode, Vincent Sr. S brother Raymond said he saw an imprint in the ground where Next to the side of the car where Shelly was found sitting inside the vehicle. And he believed Shelly's head had made that indentation.

[Jannetta]

And then that brings up another whole subject.

They had a dedication to a bench at the police station for Shelly and Vincent. So as Ronnie and I were leaving after all, ceremony and thing was over as this guy deputy come running out and no, it wasn't deputy, it was the chief. Then he come running out and handed. Was going to hand me Shelly's clothes, and my brother stopped him. He said, you are not giving those to her. You're not giving those. No. And so I did not know that's what was going on. So my brother, those clothes have been at his house since that day. Some people are saying they were never there. But. Well, you know, I don't know. Then I don't know what he did with them. But of course he told me several times, I've got them. They're okay.

[M. William Phelps]

The idea that the Weatherford police would gift clothing from a murder victim in an ongoing open murder investigation back to the victim's family is fundamentally ridiculous. Not only would it be insensitive, but as far as evidence goes, completely incompetent. Even if they were done lifting any trace evidence or potential DNA from the clothing, there would be prosecution and chain of custody issues to consider. I asked current lieutenant in the Weatherford pd, Johnny Quals, if he could confirm the clothing was given back to the family. He said he had heard the same thing, but had no idea if it was true. I asked where this evidence is now.

He didn't know.

The families of Shelly and Vincent Jr. Decided to have a joint viewing of the bodies in town at a local funeral home. Two separate rooms. Shelly in one, Vincent in the other. Same time, people could walk in, pay their respects, offer condolences to the families, sit and reflect before leaving.

Tell me about that. What happens?

[Jannetta]

Okay. My girlfriend, we were outside. There was two guys that walks in, and one had a black cowboy hat on. I saw my brother and he asked this one boy, he went down and he came back and my brother stopped him. He said something about him. He said something about him, you know, and so he stopped him and he said, did you know Shelly and Vincent? And he said he just kind of looked at him and walked off. And the other guy came from Vincent, and he said that they met up at the top and kind of just shook head and left.

[M. William Phelps]

I spoke to multiple people who were at the viewing, and they all reported seeing the same two men dressed tip to toe in cowboy garb, Stetson's Boots Wranglers. They walked in, went up to the bodies, did not kneel, cross themselves, offer condolences, or say anything to anyone. Instead, they took a mental picture of the bodies, as if making sure the kids were dead, and walked out the front door together. And yet that wasn't the end of it. Something else happened after they walked out of the funeral home. Something quite bizarre, in fact.

[Jannetta]

I Bet it wasn't 30 minutes until my girlfriend and her husband and everybody were outside. And she came in and she said, johnny, the church is on fire. The church is on fire. To what? She said, the church is on fire. And she said, this black truck, when it started being on fire, this black truck come flying by.

[M. William Phelps]

Others reported to me, they Saw those same two men walk across the street and into the church just before the fire started.

What do you think that was?

[Jannetta]

I don't know. To me, it's kind of like sending a message, you know, we did it and there you are.

[M. William Phelps]

Everyone else felt the same way. The two men who came to the viewing and left abruptly were the same men who started the church fire. Newspaper accounts later support the chaotic scene that night and the fire. The message most came away with afterward was, leave it alone, let it be, go on with your lives and forget about this.

[Jannetta]

But also, there was a fire started at Debbie's house in her back. Like, in her back room.

[M. William Phelps]

You've heard from Debbie earlier in the podcast, the neighbor who was watching Shelly and her sister that weekend of the murders.

When was this?

[Jannetta]

This was during all of the funeral, after all of that.

[M. William Phelps]

Really?

[Jannetta]

Yeah. So I kind of. At that point, I just. I kind of stayed away from Debbie because I didn't want any problems for her.

[M. William Phelps]

The fire at the church and fire at Debbie's was only the beginning. There were several more suspicious fires in town over the next several weeks.

[Jannetta]

They set a fire at some house, they tell me. I haven't seen it. They tell me that there was a fireproof box there that had a note in it saying, you're getting too close to the Cauliflower case.

[M. William Phelps]

Previously on Paper Ghosts.

[Jannetta]

It was.

[Lt. Johnny Quals]

To me, it was a premeditated murder. It was planned. He couldn't have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Debbie Billingsley]

They pulled me in for murder and then they also pulled my little brother in for murder.

[M. William Phelps]

They pulled you in for murder? For whose murder?

[Debbie Billingsley]

For those kids. I know it's going to throw a.

[M. William Phelps]

Loop, but I kind of feel that her father, Ronnie Cauliflower, was involved in it or at least knew of something going on. I've tried contacting him through his daughter. Called, left messages, text message, Facebook.

[Debbie Billingsley]

I can't get him to call back. My dad always with his brother. He would always say, how do you put it? I lay you two to one that.

[M. William Phelps]

He'S involved some form or fashion is what my dad would say. My name is M. William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times best selling author of dozens of true crime books. This is season five of paper, the Texas Teen Murders.

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[Lt. Johnny Quals]

D.

[M. William Phelps]

Cold case investigation involves various stages. In the early days, you collect information and try not to allow any of it to steer you in a particular direction. Talk to people. Listen. Follow up. Match what you are hearing against the known evidence. Allowing people to tell their stories can bring the truth to the surface like a sunrise. Slow and steady.

There had been at one time some tension between Ronnie Cauliflower and Debbie Billingsley, and to this day they still do not speak. Ronnie seemed to blame Debbie for allowing Shelly out that night, when in truth, Jannetta had been the one to give the green light. Still, Debbie was now connected to these kids forever. And according to Jannetta, as you just heard in the opening of the episode, somebody had set fire to Debbie's house.

Debbie knew one of the first investigators in the case Raymond Pritchard. The day of the murders, Pritchard and another investigator stopped by to fill her in on what had happened and to see if Debbie had any information.

[Debbie Billingsley]

And they came in, and he sat down and he said, debbie, he said, we've got some really bad news. He said, shelly and Vincent's bodies were found this morning, and they're both deceased. And I couldn't grasp that, I guess. And I just looked at him, you know, I was real confused because I didn't understand how they could just be gone like that.

So I told him everything we had done the night before.

And he proceeded to tell me that Vincent's father was the one that found him.

And then later that day, John had a call me.

And all she kept saying was, debbie, you have to help me find her. And I said, what can I do? And she said, can you come out here to my house? So I went out there.

And she just kept telling. She's sitting in the bedroom. And she said. She took hold of my hands, and she said, you got to help me find her. She said, I can't lose her. You have to help me find her. And I guess that was her way of just trying to kind of deal with it.

And some other people came in, and I stepped out into the hallway, and Ronnie came in and told me that I needed to leave. So I didn't question anything. I just.

[M. William Phelps]

Ronnie Cauliflower had been in and out of the house that morning, one would assume, dealing with all that was going on. In the last episode, you heard Troy Nicholas, Shelly's cousin, say that his father, Ronnie's brother, was suspicious of Ronnie. He gave no specific reason, but Troy's father thought Ronnie knew more than he was sharing. While Debbie was at the Cauliflower house that day, Ronnie came home.

[Debbie Billingsley]

And Ronnie came in and told me that I needed to leave. So I didn't question anything. I just left.

[M. William Phelps]

And how was Ronnie when he came in?

[Debbie Billingsley]

He was angry.

When I stepped out into the hallway, he come in the hallway from another room, and he said, I need you to leave. And I said, okay, I can do that. And he said, no, I want you out of my house now. And that's when it dawned on me. He did not know that she had given me permission for Shelly to go. I never said anything. I just left. That was too hard of a time to try to explain anything. And so I just left. And I don't know exactly when he found out that she had told me it was okay.

[M. William Phelps]

Debbie took on the responsibility of being Shelly's adult babysitter for that weekend and could make the call if she chose to. Ronnie, who agreed to have Debbie watch the kids, knew this.

Of course.

[Lt. Johnny Quals]

Debbie.

[M. William Phelps]

Debbie was not about to miss the funeral just because Ronnie had an issue with her. So she went anyway.

While she was up at the casket paying her respects, viewing Shelly's body, something struck her about the condition of Shelly's remains.

[Debbie Billingsley]

Shelly had scratches all over her arms and her right side. I didn't see the left side, but both arms were scratched, her hands were scratched, and her right side was scratched and up on her neck.

And I questioned Johnetta. I said, where did these marks come from? And she said, I don't know. They won't tell me anything.

[M. William Phelps]

In speaking with Jannetta, it's clear she loved Debbie and had no issue with her. After all, Debbie. Debbie had fallen on her sword during that traumatizing period right after the murders, taking responsibility for allowing Shelly out on the date, never revealing to Ronnie that Jannetta had given the okay.

[Debbie Billingsley]

We stayed in touch for a while, and then later on, she just kind of, like, cut all ties with me. And I don't know if it's because she couldn't face Ronnie to tell him that she had said it was okay. I don't know. And so I just let it go. And then the next thing I knew, she had left and moved away from Weatherford, and her and Ronnie had completely split up.

[M. William Phelps]

When I said earlier, bizarre things began to happen. It wasn't just those fires and Ronnie acting suspicious in those early days after the murders.

And what were people saying?

[Debbie Billingsley]

I talked to the detectives multiple times. A couple of other guys came up, told me they were with the Weatherford Police Department and needed to speak to me. They showed me a badge. I let them in. We talked. I told them what I knew. They left.

[M. William Phelps]

In the aftermath, Debbie contacted the investigator she had been speaking with at the Weatherford Police Department to find out why they had sent different investigators to her house.

[Debbie Billingsley]

And he says, debbie, those are not policemen. He says, don't talk to them anymore. Then another guy came, said he was with the Texas Rangers, had a badge, and I believed him.

[M. William Phelps]

Debbie had given Shelly 50 cents, two quarters and a piece of paper that night. She had written her phone number and address on the paper, explaining to Shelly that if she ran into any trouble, call and Debbie would come right out to get her and not ask any questions. Debbie says the Weatherford Police Department found those quarters, but the piece of paper with her address and phone number was missing.

[Debbie Billingsley]

I got very Scared. And especially knowing that someone had taken that piece of paper with my name and phone number on it. Cuz the quarters were still in Shelly's pocket, but the paper was gone. So we moved from where we were. And then about a year later we completely left Weatherford. I didn't feel safe there.

[M. William Phelps]

What were people saying around town about who could have done this?

[Debbie Billingsley]

Oh, there was multiple, multiple scenarios. The talk around town was Shelly and Vincent come up on a drug deal and got killed that away. Another rumor was that the one that killed them, they were the one dealing the drugs and they killed them. That they were killed, killed at a different location, their bodies brought back where they were found and their bodies were positioned in the car. There was just. And another rumor was that Vincent killed her and then killed himself. You know, another one was. There was a. Was infatuated with Shelly and wanted her and he wasn't gonna let Vincent have her because Vincent was Mexican. That was the words they used back then. There was just all kinds of rumors and at the different points it kind of, you know, like you didn't know what to believe because the police weren't telling me anything. As a matter of fact, it wasn't too long after the police, the two detectives that were working that case were taken off of it and moved to different. One was let go and one was moved to the probation department.

[M. William Phelps]

And why do you think that was?

[Debbie Billingsley]

I think because they knew who did it and they weren't going to let anything come of it. Weldon Kennedy owned a meatpacking plant there in Weatherford. And they used to traffic a lot of drugs and people from Mexico into Weatherford and from Weatherford up through Oklahoma and on out. And they weren't going to let anything become of it. And that's what really gave me credence to believe that had something to do with it. I never had anything put in my hand that said here's the proof. But as time went on and more that was talked and more that was said, I do believe it. I do believe that both had something to do with their deaths. Not going to sit here and say that they pulled the triggers or they did what, I don't know, that I had gone over to sister's house with a friend of mine one time, this was years later, we went in, his sister made his cup of coffee and we were sitting around talking and came in and sat down at the table. And I knew who he was, but he didn't know who I was. I told my friend, I said, it's Time for us to go. I just couldn't be in the same room with him. She didn't understand.

And so when we left, I told her what the deal was. And she says, oh, no, wouldn't have had anything to do with that. He, there's no way get out in his house for six months to a year after those kids were killed because he was too afraid to come out. And I said, yeah, he was afraid because he was part of it. Oh, no, no, no, no, he's totally innocent. I said, well, I don't believe that. But that's what his sister had told her. And so she full heartedly believed that.

[M. William Phelps]

Debbie ran into the guy whose name I censored, the same one you've heard many of my sources mention. Not long after that visit to his sister's house.

[Debbie Billingsley]

We went back by there one time to drop some stuff off. And I didn't get out and go in, but come out to the, in the garage, to the van. And he says, Debbie, he said, I have to tell you, I didn't have anything to do with Shelly and Vincent's murder. He said, I didn't have anything to do with it. I am totally innocent. I didn't. I didn't have anything to do with it. And he just kept saying that over and over and he started crying and he says, you have to believe me, I didn't have anything to do with it. And I said, if you didn't, who did? Do you know who did? He never would say he knew or he did not know. I said, if you didn't do it or have anything to do with it, who did? And he never would answer me.

So I don't know if he knew and was just afraid for his own life. I don't know.

[M. William Phelps]

Ronnie Cauliflower was not someone I would even consider a person of interest. In what is a growing list of suspects, why would Ronnie, if he knew anything, agree to hire Mel Mitchell, a private investigator to look into the murders all these years later? At face value, that would make no sense if he was involved. Not to mention he loved Shelly and had brought her up as his own daughter from the time she was a toddler.

But I still needed to talk to Ronnie and ask questions only he could answer. Several people had mentioned his brother as someone I needed to look into, that his brother had connections back to the names I have been censoring in the podcast, and that his brother was the best meth cook in the county.

I don't believe Ronnie's brother was ever a potential suspect. But he could have information about the case, seeing that he knew all of the main suspects very well.

While I was in Weatherford, Ronnie seemed to be circling me, showing up at various places I had been or coincidentally in the same area I was. Mel Mitchell and Lori Cates, the Facebook administrator of the Justice Page who had first reached out to me, told me Ronnie was very hesitant, but he had finally agreed to meet me and at my hotel and allow me to interview him. So I waited and then I got this. When I messaged you, I had a feeling that he might back out.

[Debbie Billingsley]

Sure enough, he, he took off and.

[M. William Phelps]

His friend went out the back to try to get him and he'd already left. His friends are like, what the. We don't understand. You know, we don't know he was.

[Mel Mitchell]

Going to go with you.

[Trainer Games Narrator]

And then he backed out.

[M. William Phelps]

Did tell his friends about meeting with.

[Debbie Billingsley]

You like before I'd even talked about it or came over there.

[M. William Phelps]

They said that he is said, well.

[Trainer Games Narrator]

He didn't, he didn't know what a.

[Debbie Billingsley]

Podcast was and you know, was thinking about meeting.

[Trainer Games Narrator]

So hopefully it's just because he had a few beers.

[M. William Phelps]

Maybe hopefully that's what it was. But anyways, I just wanted to let you know that he escaped.

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[Mel Mitchell]

People report to us that there were two individuals, two males that came in that I guess most people didn't recognize. And one person went to Vincent's side, kind of looked in on the casket. The other person went to Shelly's side, looked in on the casket and then kind of met up in the middle. And people are kind of looking at them thinking, okay, well are they going to introduce themselves? They're going to say hi, like, hey, we knew Shelly, we knew Vincent, but they didn't do any of that. They just kind of went over there, looked in the caskets and kind of met in the middle and then left.

[M. William Phelps]

I met Mel Mitchell one morning in front of the church which had been set on fire during the viewing of Shelly and Vincent's bodies. We talked out front. I had her go step by step through what she had found out about the viewing. And those two cowboy characters seemingly straight out of central casting as if they had stepped off the set of the iconic AMC crime drama Breaking Bad.

[Mel Mitchell]

Apparently they kind of peeled out or sort of kind of making a scene a little bit in front of the funeral home and then sped off. So a lot of people kind of felt that was off a little suspicious, didn't know why they would act that way. Literally right across the street, like you saw just how close that the church and the funeral home are. I mean, it's right there. Someone set fire to that church and it was, it's in the newspaper is arson. And so no one knows who set that fire.

[M. William Phelps]

It's kind of like a threat, right? So two cowboys show up and then a church catches on fire.

[Mel Mitchell]

I would think it'd be along the intimidation line. Sure, absolutely.

[M. William Phelps]

As we talked outside, many Mel decided to go into the funeral home and ask if they kept records dating back to 1983. Generally speaking, when a body is prepared for a wake and funeral. The embalmer notes abnormalities and details the condition of the body. It's standard practice in the industry. Nearly everyone who had seen Shelly's body that Mel and I had spoken to said the same thing. The right side appeared to show evidence that Shelly had been dragged through a briar patch, scratched and bruised. This is significant in my view. If true, it could change the entire dynamic of the motive. A drug hit, if you will, that wrong place, wrong time. Motive would generally be quick and execution. But if Shelly had been beaten or dragged, it could point to a more sexual motive. Stranger still, that autopsy report left on the doorstep of Shelly's cousin never mentions scratches or bruises on Shelly's body. I'll be going through that report in a future episode, but it's quite scant on any specific detail and seems to tell only half the story. Even those attending the viewing were shocked to see how obvious it was that Shelly's body had injuries on the right side of her face and arms. Getting notes from the embalmer might clear it all up and give us some sort of understanding of those alleged injuries on Shelly's body. As Mel went into the funeral home, I waited outside.

[Mel Mitchell]

It was. But when the families reached out to them, they told both families that all those reports were sent over to the sheriff's department or to Parker County. Okay, so they're not able to get the reports from me's office because apparently they sent all the original copies of the autopsy reports.

[M. William Phelps]

There are parts of this case and I am unsure if they can even be considered related or not. Born strictly out of social media, the new age town hall for spreading information and more destructively, misinformation.

I have learned to take what is reported on social media about murder investigations with a very skeptical eye.

In the early days of the case, there were three names synonymous with being connected to the murders, accusations of which were generated by town gossip and the rumor mill. It got so bad, several people took to the pages of the editorial section of the local newspaper to voice their concerns over accusing these men, whose names I have been censoring throughout, simply because they have never been charged in the case. I asked Weatherford Police Department Lt. Johnny Quals, the current cold case investigator looking into the murders, his thoughts about this.

So how do you even begin to look at that? Because as you know and I know, one of the worst things about a cold case is all those rumors, especially now with the Internet. So you get all of this misinformation and you have to sift through it all to find the facts. Right. And I don't think record keeping could have been that great in a town like, small town like Weatherford back then. So you have that element. So how do you manage that?

[Lt. Johnny Quals]

Yeah, you just have, well, you, you just said it. You know, you have to really focus in and hone in on, on the facts and you have to. It's almost it, it's, you know, we don't have the advantage of going back in time and, and making that a more organized operation. That's not a knock on any of those folks, but that took part in that either. It's just like we, we don't, we can't go back in, in time and fix any of that or preserve anything that maybe they didn't think or know to, to preserve back then that might be important today. So you really have to have to set out on a fact finding mission of like, what are the things that we know for sure for sure, or at least fairly certain of that happen? And then, and then you almost have to take, take your, I don't know, maybe like a virtual reality and walk, walk yourself through what that crime scene might have looked like and consult with, with experts on, you know, whether it's blood splatter or various other things and hear out their opinions. But, but also not discount, you know, the investigative opinions. And, and those vary too, by the way. You know, we have the general public with various opinions and then we have various investigative opinions on top of that. So. But go back and talk to, we did do that. We talked to the original case agent and various other people that were still around that were still. And that part. We were fortunate that a lot of those folks were still around and able to kind of fill in some of those blank spots for us as far as what happened here. Why do we think this happened here or why do we not know this information?

[M. William Phelps]

So you found the victim. So there must have been physical evidence, obviously. And you have to determine if there was a sexual assault or a rape. Right. Motive. Right.

[Lt. Johnny Quals]

Unfortunately, none of that, none of that stuff has panned out for us so far. And I was told, I was told, I was told before I ever started looking at it. When people learned that I was looking at that case, that NSA that I was, that it was a team effort that we were looking at that case.

There was a comment made to me, it was like, you know, basically it, it was from someone that kind of knew the state of all that stuff, I think, you know, before I did. And it's like, good luck, you know, so Kind of like you be shocked. They do these. They do these little. I don't remember exactly what all goes into that equation. But they do these little solubility things, you know, they looked at, okay, let's look at all the cold cases we have. Let's do a solvability.

You know, give them a solvability score. And I was told. I never thought what those sheets looked like or anything like that. But I was told by someone that was a part of that process. That.

That one, the double homicide of those kids was just like. Essentially didn't feel like it was solvable.

[M. William Phelps]

When Mel returned from speaking with the funeral home, she was optimistic. They did keep detailed records and had those files from 1983. What's more, each embalmer took copious comprehensive notes. Regarding the condition of each body. The director of the place said she'd look for the file and those notes and call Mel as soon as she found them. That was hopeful. Those notes could clear up some information. And, depending on what was in the report, answer several questions.

As you heard in the last episode, after 40 plus years, Shelly's autopsy report, which nobody had been able to obtain through the free Freedom of Information act or by any other means, shows up inside the storm door of Shelley's cousin. I wondered if Mel had any idea where this autopsy report came from and why now? Also, why was it given to Troy Nicholas, Shelley's cousin? Mainly because he was not one of the relatives most invested in the case publicly.

So how do you get the autopsy report? Because records in this case have been hard to come by. And all of a sudden you get a copy of an autopsy report. How do you get it? Where does it come from? Who dropped it off?

[Mel Mitchell]

Elwood had given me some documents before he passed. I was able to briefly see him quickly after we had spent some extensive time together, you know, over the summer. First with me, I spent quite a bit of time with him. Interviewing and talking with him. Then another time went out there and saw him with Lori. You know, I had a little bit of time to swing by and say hello again. And that's when he was able to give me a few documents.

[M. William Phelps]

If you recall, Elwood Ho Hertz was the police chief at the time of the murders. I asked Mel about something I had heard. And if she had verified it with Ho Hertz.

Right after Shelly was murdered, there were undercover officers placed in the high school.

[Mel Mitchell]

So I had asked Elle Lloyd about that. Because according to some of Shelly's family, there was some officers placed in there. Possibly one to Learn about narcotics that's going through the high school.

[M. William Phelps]

Also maybe to Mel names Vincent's stepsister.

[Mel Mitchell]

Here, Horse's stepsister friend, had just been murdered. So when I asked Elwood about it, he had said that, yes, he had had a couple, because the narcotics was such an extensive issue that they were trying to find out where it's coming from, you know, any kind of information that might get them to kind of quell a lot of the narcotics.

[M. William Phelps]

Back then, nothing came out of it. No leads, no new names, no new information. I was getting the feeling that this drug connection sounded good on paper, fit into a possible murder narrative. But beyond rumor and speculation, there wasn't much actual evidence of it, at least none that I could see any merit in at the time. And it needs to be said two things can be true at the same time, so nothing can be discounted until it is. For example, how many people eyewitnesses can put the two most popular names connected to the murders by rumor at the scene near the time we know the kids were up on piss hell. Mel gives me two names.

[Mel Mitchell]

Of course, some of the people that were across the street, you know, they're talking about a vehicle that, you know, may appear to be that way. But more importantly, in Elwood, he actually talks about. We discussed, like, who was driving the car. I knew that, you know, there's another person that we believe that was there as a.

[M. William Phelps]

She mentions somebody connected to Weldon Kennedy, the Sausage King.

[Mel Mitchell]

Because when we started looking into this case, there were always two names that were brought up. Every time was. And when I talked to Elwood about it, he's like, yeah, we had done a polygraph on. And he failed two questions. And, you know, when I wanted to go back and question some more was like, no, we're at the turn in. She's like, you'll never talk to him again. And we never did. And so he had told me. He's like, yeah, well, I. I believe that was the driver. Okay. And he kind of. Kind of was like, well, I can't really prove that, you know, hung out together. And I'm like, okay, well, I have others that can state that they did. He's like, oh, well, if that's the case, then would have been driving and probably would have been the shooter. Okay. So he, coming from. The police chief, wasn't denying these two people at the scene.

[M. William Phelps]

So the police chief at the time told Mel Mitchell he believed those two men were behind the murders. But because of their connections to political and law enforcement officials, they were told to stop investigating them as persons of interest.

What would be their motive? Is this a. A thing about, hey, they just rolled up on them and they wanted to rape Shelly. And so they did what they did. They got rid of Vince and raped.

[Mel Mitchell]

Her, by all accounts was gay. So. And of course, you know how it was in the 80s. Like, you just didn't talk about that because right after these murders basically just dropped off the face of earth. Like, he left town for a little while and then he came back and just became a recluse.

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[Trainer Games Narrator]

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[Mel Mitchell]

You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here.

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[Mel Mitchell]

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[Lt. Johnny Quals]

Shh.

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[M. William Phelps]

Crime is America's great industry. Even referred to more bombastically as the great Empire. And it seems to me that throughout the plains of Parker County, Texas, back in the 1980s, an empirical criminal syndicate was not only active within the fabric of everyday life, but a lot of people in high positions were turning a blind eye. Several things bothered me about what I was hearing from my sources. For one, the amount of fires connected back to the murders, one of which Weatherford Police Department Chief Elwood Hohertz in 1983 came out and said publicly was set to cover up evidence connected to the murders. Number two, this sausage guy, Weldon Kennedy. Mel Mitchell had run this thread down over the past several years and looked at Kennedy and a possible connection to the murders. I could see it, but wasn't yet sold on a human trafficker being involved in the murders of two local teens. I'd need more context, additional links, some sort of evidence beyond people talking. Moreover, as we will begin to explore in the next episode, Vincent and Shelly were not the only teens murdered in Parker county during the same general time period. And so when you have multiple murders, all with similarities, you'd have to start thinking serial killer. In Texas during the 1980s and 1990s was a hotbed for serial killers.

So how would Kennedy and his crew, if you will, be connected to any of the area murders of young people?

[Mel Mitchell]

I've had numerous people tell us that. I mean, on his side, I've heard more. It's like more immigrant related. I've heard numerous people that had worked there that they would not eat any of the meat because there's a possibility that he may have gotten rid of a couple of bodies through a meat grinder. That's not the first time I've heard that story. Obviously I didn't work there, but I'm just going by some of the locals that had worked there, had worked in the meat processing area. They had just said that there was up to five people that had been placed in a meat grinder at some point in time. A lot of locals wouldn't actually eat some of the meat, the meat products.

[M. William Phelps]

Is he still alive now, Mel?

[Mel Mitchell]

He passed away several years ago.

[M. William Phelps]

Who runs the place now?

[Mel Mitchell]

Well, that one, I believe had burned down. So I'm not sure if, like when you're reading this stuff, you see just how many fires there are. It seems like everything burns down within a space this time period.

I get it when you have a couple house fires here and there, but when you have the amount of house fires, or for instance, when Shelley had her viewing and right across the street, the church, you know, caught on fire from the funeral home, I don't know if you could take it as almost like a warning because I know that was arson, you know, and you have other key places that eventually burned down. There's like a hardware store that had like burned down later. You've got that 811 Hanover, which we still cannot get any kind of, you know, solid lead on exactly who lived there at that time and the murders. There's evidence in that house fire, those connected to the kids murders, as well as a couple of other cases that were found within that, that home that burned down. And they also said that there was a warning to PD and to others to, you know, to basically back off essentially.

[M. William Phelps]

And this is because of evidence, you think?

[Mel Mitchell]

I think there was evidence in the home or whoever was living there also had evidence as well and decided, okay, the best way to get rid of evidence is obviously to burn it.

[M. William Phelps]

It seems like if you're covering up a couple of murders of two young people, it seems like the extreme is met here. Like this thing like gets out of hand. Or is there a bigger thing at play here that they're calling covering up besides just the murders?

[Mel Mitchell]

I don't know because I've been repeatedly told by some people that were in certain departments that have since retired that had told me repeatedly over time with, with just different people. They're like, there's, there's bigger things at play here than you can imagine. And there's a reason why they have to keep us suppressed because it's not, apparently it's not just about these two kids. It supposedly goes, I guess a lot deeper and higher than just what these two kids murders represents. And so we're constantly trying to dig deeper into thinking, okay, well how much more are we looking at? I mean, how much deeper is it going to get or how much higher when it comes to politics? I mean, I, I don't know, but I've been repeatedly told that, that there's a much bigger picture here than just these two kids.

[M. William Phelps]

As the investigation into Shelly and Vincent's murders seemed to stall in the years after their deaths, with still no real solid lead in the case, or even any serious persons of interest, the unthinkable happened in Weatherford again.

So did you live in Weatherford?

[Patricia Springer]

Yes, I lived in weatherford for about 25 years.

[M. William Phelps]

Really? When did you get there?

[Patricia Springer]

In the mid-1970s.

[M. William Phelps]

In July 1987, 19 year old Wendy Robinson, a classmate of Shelly and Vincent's, is living her best life. Studying at Weatherford Junior College in hopes of becoming a teacher. Spending her summers in Weatherford with friends, playing tennis and hanging out at what locals called the Wall, a Popular spot in town along the backside of Lake Weatherford, where teens would go to drink, hook up, sunbathe and swim. Notably, Wendy bears a striking resemblance to Shelly. Long, flowing, thick, brunette hair, round face, soft, gentle eyes, prominent lips. And also, as Shelly's autopsy noted, quote, fully developed, as if older than her years.

[Patricia Springer]

She had just finished her first year of Weatherford College. She was a very pretty girl. She was about 120 pounds, about 5 foot 4. She had been active in the tennis team in high school. I don't think she played in college, but she was personable, very attractive young gal.

[M. William Phelps]

And so you would have known about the Shelly Vincent murder?

[Patricia Springer]

Yes, that was a big deal as far as nothing like that had happened in Weatherford before.

[M. William Phelps]

And it must have shocked everybody.

[Patricia Springer]

Oh, it was. It was so senseless.

[M. William Phelps]

Patricia Springer started her journalism career over 45 years ago in Weatherford as a beat reporter for the local radio station, which she and her then husband owned. Patricia has written books and appeared on television. She has been reporting on Wendy Robinson since the summer of 1987. She has amassed every known document from Wendy's case. Wendy Robinson, how do you lock onto the.

[Patricia Springer]

Because I knew the family pretty well. Linda, Wendy's mother, and I were tennis partners at a women's tennis league. And so I was pretty close with Linda. I knew Jim pretty well. And when Wendy went missing, then I contacted them, of course, and just followed along the story.

[M. William Phelps]

What happens.

[Patricia Springer]

Wendy had gone to Lake Weatherford to a place called the Wall, and that's where Kenya kids went and sunbathed. And that was July 8th of 1987. She went down there to sunbathe. She was alone and she didn't come home. And so they, Jim, her dad, called the police and reported her missing. I mean, they couldn't imagine where she was. They called all of her friends, anything to try to find her, and no one had seen her. She had plans with a friend that night and she didn't show up. The friend called her house and no one had seen her. So it was just a mystery of.

[Jannetta]

Where she had gone.

[M. William Phelps]

As Wendy Robinson turns up missing, sparking new concerns in Parker county, the Weatherford Police Department seems to catch a break in Shelly and Vincent's case. As it turned out, about a month after Shelly and Vincent's murders, sadistic serial killer Otis Toole was arrested.

Toole also committed many arsons as a way to misdirect investigators and cover up his crimes. He had also teamed up with Henry Lee Lucas, another barbaric serial murderer who frequently prowled around Texas in search of victims. Between them, they had confessed to murdering over 100 victims. One of those confessions Toole made was for the abduction and murder of Adam Walsh, America's Most Wanted host John Walsh's six year old son, who Toole says he decapitated in the years after Shelly and Vincent were murdered. Out of nowhere, Toole steps forward and claims to have committed the murders on Piss Hill that night. It could make sense based on the locations Toole and Lucas were known to have preyed on victims.

So the Weatherford PD sent a detective to Jacksonville, Florida, where Ottis Toole was being held on separate charges to interview him about the murders of Shelly and Vincent.

Please check out my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing person and cold case murder each Week on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Coming up in the next episode of Paper Ghosts.

[Patricia Springer]

There was a man that worked on that ranch that found her body laying there. He had gone to enter the ranch and that's when he discovered her. It was in the middle of nowhere. There were no houses around or anything.

[Mel Mitchell]

They were classmates and and I know that with hers I know that her seat was pushed all the way back in her car and it sounded as though there wasn't a lot of evidence in her vehicle either.

[Patricia Springer]

Her father had confessed to her that he was part of the murder and then that's when they went back and so all of a sudden he came to the forefront.

[M. William Phelps]

Paper Ghosts Season 5 is written and executive produced by me, M William Phelps, Script Consulting by iHeartMedia Executive Producer Kathryn Law Production by Tak Boom Productions Audio mastering and mixing by Brandon Dickert the Series theme number 442 is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney.

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[Trainer Games Narrator]

Give the gift of incredible sound with Vizio's full soundbar lineup, available at Walmart. Transform any living room into a home theater with rich, immersive audio that brings every movie, show, and song to life. Whether you're gifting a loved one or upgrading your own setup, Vizio soundbars deliver powerful, crystal clear sound that turns ordinary watching into extraordinary experiences. Stream your favorite holiday Playlist with the iHeartRadio app and discover how good your music can truly sound. Head to Walmart.com and find your perfect Vizio soundbar today.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.