Oh My God... What Kind of Mess is This?

Summary

Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders

Episode: "Oh My God... What Kind of Mess is This?"

Date: December 17, 2025
Host: M. William Phelps
Podcast by: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode of Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders goes deeper into the 1983 execution-style murders of teenagers Shelly and Vincent in Weatherford, TX. Host and investigative journalist M. William Phelps, alongside private investigator Mel Mitchell, explores an alarming web of apparent investigative incompetence, corruption, lost evidence, and potential coverups that has shrouded the case for over 40 years. Anchored around newly surfaced autopsy reports, missing records, and potentially suppressed evidence, the episode scrutinizes how systemic failures and community fears have left the murders unsolved and many witnesses too frightened to come forward.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Suspicious Deaths and Pattern Recognition

(02:37–05:45)

• The episode opens with Phelps revisiting claims from his source, Alan Carter, about a series of suspicious teen deaths in Parker County that might link to the Shelly and Vincent murders.
• Mel Mitchell introduces the case of Jimmy Joe Hayes, whose suicide ruling was questionable: found hung with his hands and feet tied, and his dog shot—a scenario observers consider impossible to self-inflict.

  “I don’t know how I’m gonna tie my hands behind my back and my feet and then try to figure out how to hang myself. But, I mean, I don’t know, maybe a magician can.” —Mel Mitchell (04:37)

2. Investigative Incompetence and Possible Corruption

(05:45–11:30)

• Mel Mitchell notes the procedures of the 1980s placed critical decisions about cause of death in the hands of justices of the peace, not trained pathologists.
• The Weatherford PD’s ineffective investigation stands out starkly against their swift resolution of other murders at the same time.

  “It sounds to me like a clusterfuck. That's what it sounds like. This whole thing like from the moment they showed up at that scene, nobody did anything, right?” —William Phelps (06:18)

• Both Shelly and Vincent’s embalming reports are missing, despite records for other cases from 1983 being intact, raising suspicions of intentional cover-up.

3. Changing Law Enforcement Attitudes and The Record Gaps

(11:30–15:06)

• Chief Arnold (2017–2024) initially promised openness but later stopped communicating, a pattern among police officials involved.
• There’s uncertainty and avoidance regarding the details of Shelly’s injuries and the case status within the department.

  “Each time, it was the same scenario... from that point on, they ghosted me. That says a lot. After 40 plus years, what is there to hide?” —William Phelps (11:30)

• Even when officials acknowledged possible mistakes or rumors, they shifted responsibility, and compartmentalized information sharing.

4. Archival Tapes: Confirmation, Contradictions, and Vanished Evidence

(15:06–21:31)

• Phelps plays a 1980s interview with then-chief Elwood Hohertz:

  • Confirms Shelly had abrasions as if “dragged through a briar patch,” yet downplays severity (16:07).
  • Notes the car radio running and keys missing — details suggesting planned staging.
  • Mentions critical evidence (shell casings, used condom) was sent for testing but “can’t be found.”

  “Oh, my God. What kind of mess is this?” —Elwood Hohertz (20:39)

• Hohertz alleges the case became political, with local politicians and a district attorney directly intervening, possibly to suppress the investigation.

5. Community Fear and Witness Intimidation

(43:57–48:39)

• Mel and her team try to meet with witnesses in secret due to their real fears of harassment or being followed.

  “We wanted them to kind of meet each other and know that they’re, one, not alone... They felt like, you know, possibly they were being followed or, you know, anybody had called them and made them feel uncomfortable or possibly harassed.” —Mel Mitchell (44:57)

• Mel shares a firsthand account of being followed by a suspicious woman while en route to a confidential witness meeting.

6. Autopsy Report and the Infamous Medical Examiner

(25:30–33:26)

• A “mysterious” delivery in 2024 brings Shelly’s autopsy report to the family’s home.
• Autopsy documents are incomplete or intentionally vague, failing to detail multiple known injuries, and conducted by Dr. Nizam Pirwani—a controversial figure with a history of errors (and performing autopsies before his medical license was valid).
• The choice of Pirwani over the established Dallas ME adds another layer of suspicion.

  “59 errors in 27 cases... Pirwani’s co-medical examiner was later fired. This is not the guy you want to trust with two bodies in a double homicide.” —William Phelps (31:15)

7. Catastrophic Mishandling of Physical Evidence

(33:26–40:29)

• Confusion and contradiction over where critical evidence (including the car) was sent: Tarrant County Sheriff's, Fort Worth PD, or elsewhere.
• No forensic evidence (like fingerprinting), and the car itself—with a used condom inside—was returned to the family, unprocessed.

  “Can you imagine the car where two teenage murder victims were allegedly found not being processed? …Who the hell is running this investigation?” —William Phelps (37:43)

• Paperwork and physical evidence like the boot print trace went missing.

8. Ongoing Theories and Explored Motives

(50:19–53:51)

• Mel reports Shelly’s mother kept a hope chest with a news clipping, circled around two young men’s faces, suggesting possible suspects or significant parties.
• Vincent’s ex-girlfriend claimed she was told by police she might have been the intended target, witnessed attempts to stage the bodies, received a death threat, and believed police covered up for one of their own.
• Meth trade in the area is a recurring theme as a possible motive, with speculation teens saw something connected to the drug world.

9. Pattern of Suspicious Teenage Deaths

(57:05–58:46)

• Several friends and classmates of Shelly and Vincent died in car crashes or other suspicious circumstances in the months and years following the murder, reinforcing theories of a coordinated silencing of potential witnesses.

10. Focus on Suspects & Failed Polygraphs

(60:05–62:22)

• Alan Carter details the intense focus on two unnamed (censored) suspects by law enforcement, one of whom apparently failed a polygraph.

• Repeated insinuations remain unbacked by any forensic evidence or credible eyewitness statements.

  “They seen something they weren’t supposed to on Piss Hill… They saw something up there they weren’t supposed to see.” —Alan Carter (62:22)

• Phelps underscores the need for objectivity and warns against witch hunts driven by rumor and lacking evidence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Oh, my God. What kind of mess is this? Oh, my God.”
  — Elwood Hohertz (20:39)
  (Episode’s title phrase; encapsulates the episode’s outrage and bewilderment at the investigative chaos.)

• “It’s either the most inept investigation ever or certain parties are playing dumb, hoping to deflect the obvious and muck up the investigation on purpose.”
  — William Phelps (39:49)

• “Jimmy Joe Hayes… hands tied behind his back, his feet tied up, and then his dog shot underneath his feet. Rule is suicide.” — Mel Mitchell (04:15)

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:37 | Start of discussion on string of suspicious deaths—focus on possible connections between cases | | 04:15 | Jimmy Joe Hayes case—suspicious suicide ruling | | 06:18 | Acknowledgement of bungled 1980s investigative procedures | | 08:09 | Weatherford PD’s lack of progress and public posturing | | 10:28 | Embalming records for Shelly and Vincent missing | | 11:15 | Corruption suspicions rise with missing records | | 15:22 | 1980s interview with Chief Hohertz, confirming evidence mishandling | | 20:39 | “Oh, my God. What kind of mess is this?”—lost evidence and chaos | | 25:30 | Autopsy report delivery; new forensic findings questioned | | 31:15 | Exposé on Dr. Pirwani’s controversial background | | 33:51–40:29 | Extensive failures to process or keep track of evidence, mishandled car evidence | | 43:57 | Mel Mitchell recounts organizing secret support groups for frightened witnesses | | 44:57 | Witness intimidation events and Mel being followed by suspicious vehicle | | 50:19 | Connection between teenagers and meth trade; Shelly’s hope chest | | 60:05 | Alan Carter details police focus on two main suspects, failed polygraphs, and law enforcement bias | | 62:22 | Motive theories discussed (teens saw something they shouldn’t have) |

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• The episode paints a grim and chaotic picture of the original investigation, suggesting at best extreme incompetence, and at worst, coordinated cover-up by authorities.
• Repeated loss and mishandling of crucial evidence, evasive official behavior, and community-wide fear have left the Shelly and Vincent case unresolved and clouded by rumor and suspicion.
• New evidence, like the elusive autopsy report, raises more questions than it answers.
• Societal dynamics, such as the meth trade and small-town power structures, continue to loom over the unsolved crime, supported by disturbing patterns of violence, death, and intimidation.
• The hosts promise continued pursuit of truth and renewed focus on the named and unnamed suspects, while warning listeners about the dangers of rumor and the complexity of local politics and law enforcement.

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This summary covers the major substantive portions and key emotional beats of the episode, with explicit references, timestamps, and quotes to offer a vivid account that stands on its own for any reader.

Transcript

[Emily]

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[Mel Mitchell]

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[William Phelps]

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[William Phelps]

At the conclusion of the previous episode, you heard my source Alan Carter mention a series of accidents, suicides and other strange deaths in Parker County. In fact, right In Weatherford. Several sources I spoke to, including Allen, claim that many of those deaths tied directly back to the murders of Shelly and Vincent in some way? I understand that's a big, bold assertion. When I first heard this, I honestly had one of those moments. Okay, I get it. The frustration of an unsolved teenage double murder case, A lack of results from the local pd. Add the conspiracy mindset that's so common today. Any death of a teen becomes suspicious. The confusion of a mishandled investigation, no arrests, 40 something years later. It's a basic human response. When no answers present themselves, you begin to question everything. You begin to think systemic corruption. It's rare, but it does take place. So I put my investigative cap on and decided to take a serious look into some of these cases in Parker County. Now let me ask you, so are there any other murders before or after this that have a similar kind of ring to them that begin to tell a tale of, like, wow, there's something bigger going on here?

[Mel Mitchell]

There's one. I know his name was Jimmy Joe Hayes, and I know he was a younger guy and he was found next to the lake. He had allegedly hung himself. It was ruled as a suicide, but he was found hanging with his hands tied behind his back, his feet tied up, and then his dog shot underneath his feet.

[William Phelps]

Wow. Okay.

[Mel Mitchell]

Put his role to suicide. And so I know a lot of people have kind of brought him up, and, you know, that doesn't really set well with the suicide. I don't know about you, but I don't know how I'm gonna tie my hands behind my back and my feet and then try to figure out how to hang myself. But, I mean, I don't know, maybe a magician can.

[William Phelps]

I must say that working with Mel Mitchell over the years on these cases has taught me many things. She is a tenacious, driven, insatiable investigator working for a very large private investigation firm, Blackf Fish. And she does not stop until she finds an answer or exhausts every avenue, which is what these cases need. She also refuses to take any shit from anyone, which I admire and respect immensely. In researching all of these strange deaths, murders, accidents, and suicides, Mel Mitchell did something which needs to be recognized and, and acknowledged, Something that's vital in cold case work.

[Mel Mitchell]

I was trying to understand how they did things back in the 80s, which clearly is a lot different than now. We're talking about, like, I guess the investigators are also cross trained in some pathology and some, you know, some classes within, you know, medical exam where they can actually determine, okay, Suicide, homicide, you know, undetermined whether or not needs to go off and you know, have an autopsy. But it was the JP back then that would actually make the determination, okay, you know what, it's a suicide, you know what, it's a homicide.

[William Phelps]

Mel is referring to the justice of the peace when she says JP and what impresses me about her research is how she places her investigation in the year 2025 back into the context of, of 1983, which is so very important when trying to develop new information in a cold case. When you are trying to figure out what might have been missed, you have to look at things the way in which investigators did at that time. And when you do that in this case, as Mel pointed out, obvious signs of the potential to corrupt and muddy and an investigation emerge, one insider could easily cover up a lot of crime. Three or four could change the entire course of a murder case. It sounds to me like a clusterfuck. That's what it sounds like. This, this whole thing like from the moment that they showed up at that scene, nobody did anything, right?

[Mel Mitchell]

No, they did not. Oh, 100%. And any of those people that had that would talk to us will tell you yes, nothing was done. Right. And that's why it's mind boggling to me because right around that time period, like six weeks after their murders, there was two other murders that happened at the lake. And it was a couple and they were I believe, shot in their vehicle and then that vehicle was pushed off into lake. Anyway, but they found the guy down in Austin within a couple weeks. And I'm like, okay, so you guys are able to process that scene and actually find out who this guy is and then locate him way down Austin and you do all that, Right? But within six weeks time period, you can't do anything right with these kids.

[William Phelps]

I mentioned the murder of that couple in an earlier episode of the podcast. That case doesn't appear to be connected to any of the cases here. But the point Mel makes is noted. The Weatherford Police Department publicized that they had cleared all the murders in town over a 10 year period, including Wendy Robinson's. They'd cleared everything except Shelly and Vincent's, which says something. What was it about Shelly and Vincent's murders stifling progress? Within the first six months, the Weatherford Police Department reported to the Media they had 11 law enforcement agencies working on the case. And the Weatherford PD had amassed over 300 hours in overtime alone. And not a single solid lead or suspect was there. Someone deeply involved behind the scenes Pushing the investigation off course at every opportunity. Remember when Mel and I met in front of the funeral home and Mel went inside and asked about embalming records for Shelly and Vincent? She had made contact with someone at the funeral home in 2025 during one of my trips to Texas. The woman was extremely helpful during that first conversation Mel had with her. Yes, absolutely. We keep all the records. I'll find the ones you're looking for and call you, she told Mel. Important to keep in mind is that those notes from the embalmer Mel was searching for would give a complete and very detailed description of the bodies. During the embalming process, when the bodies were being prepared for viewing and burial, any injury, any blemish to the skin, any anomaly would have been noted. That same woman who was so friendly the first time Mel spoke to her turned standoffish the next time they had a conversation and passed the baton off to higher ups. So Mel got one of the managers on the phone after playing tag for a bit.

[Emily]

I did tell him. I was like. Well, I was like. Threw some back channels. We'll leave it there right now. I did get a copy of Shelley's autopsy report, and he's like, oh, okay. We also found out that we were missing Shelley's embalming report. You know, I found out that they have a file, and I was like, there's no HIPAA violations.

[William Phelps]

The point is, handing over an embalming report is not the same as handing over medical records. Yet out of all the embalming reports they had, even as far back as 1983 and before, all of which had the embalming notes inside the file, Mel was told, guess which two reports did not have embalming notes when they checked Shelly and Vincent's.

[Emily]

So when you talk about corruption, you're talking about someone who actually really knew how to cover themselves up. Because who would even think to go after an embalming report? And he's like, well, I wouldn't either. And I'm like, exactly. That's my point. Because it was showing her external injuries.

[William Phelps]

Mel reached out to Lance Arnold, the Weatherford Police department chief from 2017 to 2024, who expressed interest in talking to me for the podcast. But then, like many others in law enforcement involved in this case today, disappeared and stopped responding to my requests without even having the courtesy to tell me no. Each time, it was the same scenario. At first, they had no problem talking to me. Some were even eager. But as time went by, and they must have spoken to friends or those in positions of high authority. From that point on, they ghosted me. That says a lot. After 40 plus years, what is there to hide? Why wouldn't you want to make a statement of on a worldwide podcast and take the opportunity to reach out to people in your community who might help you solve your town's coldest murder case? Mel had put several different questions to Chief Arnold, some of which included the condition of Shelly's body and if in fact she had been raped and beaten.

[Emily]

And he's like, well, I don't know if she had external injuries. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, well, I saw the photos of her and Vincent in the car. And he's like, for maybe 10, 15 seconds, I saw her body that was in the morgue, you know, when she was unclothed. And he's like, I don't remember seeing any external injuries. But he's like, but don't quote me on that because I only saw it for like 15 seconds. It's been like five years ago. And I'm like, okay, well, what I am going to tell you is that if the mom, you know, of a murdered child sees all these injuries on the body, I'm gonna be obviously inclined to believe her because that's her. That's her child that's been brutally murdered. He's like, no, 100%, I absolutely agree. If the mom's. What if that's what the mom saw, then. Then that's what you have to go on. Because he's right.

[Mel Mitchell]

He's like, I'm.

[Emily]

I'm not gonna lie. I saw it for like 15 seconds, but I don't remember seeing anything on her body from the morgue. And I do remember seeing her. Seeing her had clothing on in the car. What I kind of pieced together with him and what I'm. And what I kind of had thought about enough is I don't think they were giving Arnold the. I personally don't. I don't think the investigators were giving Arnold because, you know, he created this cold case unit. You know, he said we had. They got together once a day. I mean, once a week. They work once a. You know, once a week, and then they come back to him monthly and give him updates on it. So he's not going to have the fine details and everything going on in the case. They're just gonna give him the, the broad overview.

[Mel Mitchell]

Okay, this is what we found.

[Emily]

This is what we have, you know, probably maybe a 10, 15 minute briefing, and that's about it. When I'm talking about this. He's like, yeah, I think the kids were actually killed, you know, in the car.

[Mel Mitchell]

I saw the photos.

[Emily]

And he's like, you know, it looked like they were probably killed in the car, so I didn't have time to really get into it with him. On, no, I don't believe that's true, and here's my reasons why.

[Mel Mitchell]

He's like, there's some things about this.

[Emily]

Case I can't tell you about. OP6. It's still an open investigation. He's like, I can only give you, you know, bare minimum stuff. I'm like, that's fine.

[Mel Mitchell]

But the more I started talking to.

[Emily]

Him about some stuff, like about finally came around, he's like, yeah, I'd heard those rumors.

[Mel Mitchell]

Rumors.

[Emily]

I'm like, yeah, okay. But unfortunately, those rumors are pretty much true. And he started kind of coming around towards the end of the conversation. He's like, well, yeah, we know that there was a lot of activity going on that shouldn't have been going on back in that time period.

[William Phelps]

Here, once again is part of a conversation with the late Elwood Hohertz, the Weatherford Police Department chief at the time of the murders. A tape which I obtained late into my investigation.

[Elwood Hohertz]

The only thing is, we knew that they got shot. Somebody sticking inside the right passenger door and shot them from the right side.

[William Phelps]

The interviewer then brings up several points. One, that there was definitely a struggle before they were murdered. Two, that in speaking with many people attending the wake, abrasions were reported on Shelly's right side nearly from the top of her face to the bottom of her leg. And three, how, for a fact, from Shelly's face all the way down to her arms had been completely torn up as if she'd been dragged through a briar patch. Hohertz responds, confirming as much.

[Elwood Hohertz]

It wasn't that tore up, but it was noticeable.

[William Phelps]

Then the question of several gashes on Shelly's forehead were posed.

[Elwood Hohertz]

I didn't notice that.

[William Phelps]

Another fact gleaned from Shelly's mother, Jannetta, if you recall, was that her shoes were pristine, but her feet were filthy. Ho Hertz ignored that and said this.

[Elwood Hohertz]

Well, the thing that always interests us, you know, the car radio was on as soon as you turn on the switch of the car, the radio was running immediately.

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[Elwood Hohertz]

We know that they were killed with the car running point.

[William Phelps]

In fact, the keys were reportedly missing and never found.

[Elwood Hohertz]

Anyway, I was upset that everybody was clawing around. People were not trained up there at Weatherford at that time, and they didn't protect the scene. But I'm upset at Max Smith and his people going there and going off through that. They should have protected the scene.

[William Phelps]

Hohertz mentions Max Smith there, the district attorney at the time. This interview with Hohertz exemplifies a major point for me. If you persist and keep asking the right questions, truth will eventually emerge. Ho Hertz was the chief at the time, and here he is acknowledging a lot of the quote, unquote rumor we've been hearing. He confirms the injuries Shele sustained while at the same time trying his best to back away from a complete confirmation. So clear in this tape, as I listened back and studied it carefully, was how much Hohertz wanted to say but ultimately bit his tongue about that evidence they did collect. Hohartz said there were shell casings and a used condom, both of which could break the case open at some point down the road. According to Hohertz, those items were sent to Fort Worth, a department more skilled in forensics and crime scene investigation than any other department at the time in the region. But when the Weatherford Police Department went back to Fort Worth and asked what had been found from testing those pieces of evidence, the evidence officer there said, I'm sorry, but we can't find any of it.

[Elwood Hohertz]

I'm surprised about that, really. The main part that Fort Worth played that I always remember, they wanted to take the heat off of me, sharing me. Holy hell.

[William Phelps]

According to Hohertz, the case became political right from the start, and the person he refers to as she, there was a top politician in town then, the indication being that all sorts of local politicians and lawyers and other law enforcement officials were getting involved, mucking everything up, telling him to basically back the fuck off. And then as Ho Hertz's investigators started digging into the case through the evidence collected from the crime scene investigation that they had sent off, things became even more convoluted and, quite honestly, alarming.

[Elwood Hohertz]

I still think he pulled the deal, and I think his strict motive was he couldn't stand to see a Mexican dating a white girl.

[William Phelps]

Ho Hertz is referring to one of the names I have censored. And that politically connected person following him.

[Elwood Hohertz]

To the polygraph and just got to being on my case like crazy, wanted me out of there. Well, that's when two detectives at Fort Worth agreed that they'd take the heat off me. They picked up, and the lawyer followed him and went to Fort Worth to run the polygraph that time. This is now well after. And that's the day he next. And her lawyer Followed him right behind.

[Alan Carter]

Him all the way.

[William Phelps]

The name censored. There is that politician seemingly running things within Weatherford. And so we have this supposed cover up going all the way up the chain. Then Hohertz tells this story which is just mind boggling, but also revealing, showing the lengths to which some went to make sure this case never went anywhere.

[Elwood Hohertz]

One day, two Texas Rangers showed up and they said, we're missing some evidence. And I said, what is it? And said, supposedly you took to the property room to be checked out by, you know, their property people. And I said, oh, I remember. I said, I took it in, let them sign for it. They said, yeah, the state can't find it. I said, state can't find it. They can't even find where they signed for it. Yeah, but I bet you Weatherford's got where they signed for it. They said they did, but that person that signed for it supposedly don't work for the state. I said, oh, my God. What kind of mess is this? Oh, my God.

[William Phelps]

Previously on Paper Ghosts.

[Alan Carter]

And here it is 42 years later and nothing still. But I'm gonna say that that's what it was, you know, to me, that's what it was.

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[Alan Carter]

And they all covered it up.

[William Phelps]

There was a couple of, you know.

[Alan Carter]

Young African American boys that were killed.

[Emily]

And murdered for no reason.

[Mel Mitchell]

There was just so many, so many things and so many that were not.

[Alan Carter]

Even written about that we know about that were missing. I just hope that they can stop.

[Mel Mitchell]

So we went in the house and she was looking for him. And I was just kind of sitting there. And that's when I saw. I didn't know who he was when I saw him, but it was then all of a sudden I heard him.

[Emily]

Say, we killed those kids.

[William Phelps]

My name is Emily. My name is William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times best selling author of dozens of true crime books. This is season five of Paper Ghosts, the Texas teen Murders.

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This is where mindset comes in.

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Someone will be eliminated.

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Pressure is coming down.

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Of Unrivaled Basketball is here and the talent is unreal. Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more are back to redefine the game. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy tips off January 5th on TNT, TruTV and HBO.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Max support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally, literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIP Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures [e-mail] disclosures.

[William Phelps]

So what is in the autopsy report Troy Nicholas received on his front doorstep during the fall of 2024, which could have been so important that the person leaving the report wanted that information to be either known by the family or shared publicly. And why now, four decades later, here is Mel Mitchell once again.

[Mel Mitchell]

We've had a lot of people that we had talked to, you know about, hey, where were they shot? What do you remember? And we have been told that, you know, Vincent had been shot in the right temple because his left eye was kind of hanging out. And Shelly had been shot once in the back of the head, like I guess, kind of behind the ear. Well, come to find out she was shot twice in the head.

[William Phelps]

That autopsy report isn't clear about a lot of things and I would go so far as to say it was purposely constructed to be unclear. On the front page, the medical examiner states that one projectile was recovered from the right side of the head and one projectile was recovered from the left side of the head. Of interest, the external examination section of the report has a note indicating that lividity conforms to the position of the deceased. And having been seated slightly slumped over attached car door. This is directly associated with what the pathologist was told by law enforcement or there is no other way he could have known with the amount of certainty he maintained in the report. Shele had no defensive wounds. The report claims then it specifies that Shelly had a single gunshot wound localized to the left side of her face, very close to her ear. The second wound was found three inches below the base of the same ear. If you are looking at Shelly from a left profile view, one wound was just to the side of the ear and the other to the back of the ear. Those are the type of wounds generally associated with an execution. Like a mob related hit designed specifically to send a message.

[Mel Mitchell]

When we got the autopsy report, there's a lot more questions in that than answers because we know that she has scratch marks all over her. We know that she had scratches, I mean, like on her forehead and like, almost like she'd been drugged through the briars, like on like the whole right side of her body was torn up. Going to the funeral, you could see, see the scratches. I mean, and it's seen, you know, Simone actually had seen her obviously prior to, you know, being dressed, you know, for the funeral. I mean, just seeing all these scratch marks. Because in the autos report it shows none of that. Nothing at all. It doesn't show there is any, I mean, any wounds at all besides the, the two, the two bullet point wounds. That's it. So that's already a huge question for me as someone who's an me. Why are you not documenting all the exterior injuries? Because you haven't documented any.

[William Phelps]

By the end of what is one of the shorter autopsy reports I've ever come across, the pathologist says he took blood and urine samples, tissue sections, fingernail cuttings, plucked hair from Shelly's scalp, took cardiac blood, and very important, a rape kit. There is zero mention of any, any external injuries like Elwood Hohartz describes throughout this podcast. The pathologist who conducted Shelly's autopsy was Dr. Nizam Pirwani, a name steeped in controversy.

[Mel Mitchell]

Well, I don't know if you ever had a chance to read about the ME Like I sent you some documents a while back. Did you ever read about the ME and his background?

[William Phelps]

Yeah, yeah, It's a very sketchy situation.

[Mel Mitchell]

Yeah. And at that time period, he had just gotten a contract a couple months prior to these murders to do Parker County. I think they were paying him like $500 in autopsy, which obviously back there was a lot of money. But his lab was not like a massive, you know, medical examiners lab like you have now. Like he had been asking for donations and all that kind of stuff. And so he built this like half million dollar lab that opened up I think October, November of that same year to where he had a much better family facility. So I don't know what all he was lacking at the time of their murders because typically a lot of the, the bigger named, you know, autopsies would be sent to Dallas. So if you had, if you really needed a lot of in depth stuff, I mean, better forensics, you'd be going to Dallas because this guy was like an up and coming medical examiner. Like he wasn't just some guy that's been, you know, around for 10, 20 years. I mean he just started up his practice.

[William Phelps]

Wouldn't two teenagers shot to death in a car be a big case that you'd want to send to Dallas?

[Mel Mitchell]

I would think so. That'd be the first place I'd send them to, is Dallas, because Dallas, the one that took on all the big stuff back then. So instead you're saying it to a new guy who's new here and has only been practicing for like maybe a year or two and you just get, you know, a contract at the county. I'm like, well why would you send it to this guy who doesn't have like a fully functional lab like you would Dallas?

[William Phelps]

And who would be in charge of all of that?

[Mel Mitchell]

That would be the justice of the peace. Glenn Dimsmore was the one that was making most of those decisions at the time. From my understanding.

[William Phelps]

Doctor Pirwani, and it would have been a stretch calling him a doctor at the time, had a career mired in lies and incompetence beginning in the years before the kids murders and it's important to note, according to then District attorney Max Smith, the Monte Carlo was sent to Dr. Pierwani as well. And Max Smith publicly stated that Pierwani conducted the forensic examination of that vehicle. Pirwani became the deputy medical examiner in 1976, yet his medical license did not become effective until 1978. So for two years, he conducted autopsies without a medical license, which is a felony. He also obtained his green card. He immigrated from Pakistan after lying about the terms of his student visa. In the years after he conducted the autopsies of Shelly and Vincent, Pierwani was found to have given false testimony in advance death penalty case, resulting in the defendant being sentenced to death. And an audit of his office found 59 errors in 27 cases. 59 errors, 27 cases. Pirwani's co medical examiner was later fired. This is not the guy you want to trust with two bodies in a double homicide. With the public pressure of the case at the highest level possible, I also couldn't wrap my mind around why a medical examiner would be the one to conduct a forensic search of a vehicle in a double murder case, or why you would even send two bodies in a double homicide to a medical examiner who was clearly unreliable and did not do a thorough job. But when I applied more pressure, that supposed fact gave way.

[Mel Mitchell]

That was a crazy thing too, is that there was taking the car and the bodies to Emmy's office. Well, the Emmy's office. First of all, it's not forensics for a car. Secondly, there's nowhere to even park a car to even do forensics on it. So I knew it wasn't me's office.

[William Phelps]

Mel discovered that Max Smith was wrong. The car was not sent to Dr. Pirwani, which still did not make matters any better.

[Mel Mitchell]

I'd been told that it went to Fort Worth, and Fort Worth is the one who had done the processing on it. And then when I talked to Raymond Pritchard, he had said it was actually the Tarrant County Sheriff's Department that had the vehicle and was doing the forensics on the car. And he had told us that it was nothing was really done like it's supposed to be. Because I asked him, I was like, well, were there fingerprints taken? And he's like, I don't think so. Because I'd asked the family, the ones that actually had the car, I'm like, do you remember seeing any of the black powder? Cause, like, you know, back then they would have had the black fingerprint powder everywhere. He's like, no, I don't remember. Seeing any of that in the vehicle.

[Emily]

Or outside the vehicle.

[Mel Mitchell]

And so talking to Raymond, he said he didn't really remember them doing fingerprints on that either. He did remember there was a boot print in the back seat. They had like kind of pointed toed cowboy boots with like some zigzag design on the footprint. I'd asked him, I was like, well, I understood that there was a cond of Michelle Casons in the car. And he's like, yeah, he's like those kind of went missing.

[William Phelps]

Let me break that down simply because it sounds so confusing and truly unbelievable. Raymond Pritchard, who took over the case many years later and eventually became Deputy chief of the Weatherford Police Department, told Mel Mitchell no search for fingerprints was ever conducted on the vehicle. And we know from Raven T. Garina, Vincent's uncle, that when he saw the vehicle that morning and after it was returned to the family, there was a used condom inside the car. So I think it's safe to say that no forensic examination of the vehicle, or at least a competent examination was ever done. And surely that used condom, which could contain the answer to the case, was never tested.

[Mel Mitchell]

And so he's like, oh well, it was a brand new person. Like it was a. Is a newbie that basically got assigned to doing the forensics on his car. Like he never done forensics on his car ever before.

[William Phelps]

Even if it was your first minute on the job, it would be pretty damn hard to miss a used condom sitting on the backseat of a vehicle you are combing through for evidence in a murder investigation.

[Mel Mitchell]

And so when I'm talking to Raymond, I'm trying to understand this. Like, so you're telling me that you have a double homicide and this car gets sent over to Tarrant County Sheriff's office and some guy who's never done forensics on a car ever before is the one that gets assigned to doing the forensics on this car. He's like, well, yeah, that's why such a poor job was done on it.

[William Phelps]

To say the least. I was baffled by the incompetence within all of this. So, Mel, I'm not understanding how the evidence got put back in the car and given back to the family. Is that what somebody wanted done? I don't, I'm not.

[Mel Mitchell]

I think so. They allegedly don't have the evidence. So I don't know if it was someone who. And I'm not sure. I've been trying to figure out from the family if they actually went to go pick up the car or if it was brought Back. But my understanding, the car was actually kept. After the forensics was done on it, it was actually kept in a facility for all the other towed, you know, towed vehicles, like a towing yard. And so it's like back in this back corner, and it wasn't really shielded from the. You know, from the elements, like just kind of stuck in a corner somewhere. And so Vincent Sr. And maybe his brother Raymond, you know, had gone up there and picked up the car and then came back. But another family member had just told us, maybe Vincent Sr. Was not happy with maybe looking at the car and realizing, okay, I don't feel like this has been inspected like it should. And so at some point in time, he drove it back up to Weatherford PD to have them look over it. Like, it doesn't look like this car has been processed.

[William Phelps]

Can you imagine the car where two teenage murder victims were allegedly found not being processed? If I hadn't gotten involved in this case, I'd have to say it's impossible. Who the hell is running this investigation?

[Mel Mitchell]

Exactly. That's. That's what I'm saying. And so when I was talking to Raymond, he was a lead on this. And Raymond reopened this case in 2003 with another investigator, Chris Crawford. And Raymond, at that point in time, I think, was like deputy police chief, you know. So when I'm talking to Raymond Pritchard about this, it's like, well, you don't have a scene properly taped off from all the witnesses we've talked to. So you've basically got. I mean, it's like the Grand Prix walking through here. There's. There's footprints everywhere. There's car tracks everywhere. Nothing was properly, you know, cordoned off from, you know, just anybody walking through it. You got press out there. You've got press the same night that's actually taking video of people walking around where the blood stains are on the ground. And then you have this car that people are touching. They're touching the car, like, as it's, like, getting loaded up onto the tow truck. So now you've, like, really contaminated the scene with all these people's footprints and touching the vehicle. So, I mean, who knows how many fingerprints maybe on the outside of the car. And then it's sent over to Fort Worth to be processed, which I don't think there are ever any fingerprints taken. And so Raymond said there was a paper, I guess, like the old school kind of paper. You can kind of, I guess, the. The tracing sheets or whatever, you can trace the footprints. And so, like, they had a trace footprint made of like one boot print. And he said somehow that was lost in the evidence later on, but they had a photo of it left. Like they still had a photo still somewhere in the evidence. But there's so much evidence that's lost in this. So I don't know who had the car. He's telling me it's Tarrant County Sheriff's Department. I have others that tell me it was Fort Worth pd. But whoever had the car, I don't know if there's a phone call that was made and said, hey, make sure this doesn't find its way back to pd.

[William Phelps]

I'm almost, almost certain I have never heard anything this incompetent within a murder investigation throughout my 25 year career of investigative journalism. It's either the most inept investigation ever or certain parties are playing dumb, hoping to deflect the obvious and muck up the investigation on purpose.

[Mel Mitchell]

Because I mean, honestly, I don't know how else it would have happened because you're not going to have it bagged and tagged and then somehow it ends up right back in the car for the family to find. Knowing the family is more than likely not going to hang on to it, thinking, okay, well it's obviously left in here for a reason.

[William Phelps]

More paper Ghosts After a quick break, please check out my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing person and cold case murder each week. Wherever you get your favorite shows.

[Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry Advertiser]

There'S nothing better than the holidays. The house is full, music playing, cousins talking trash over games. It's like the family group chat finally made it to real life. And right there when you need a fresh pick me up is Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry. It has that crisp cranberry flavor with a smooth winter spice twist. Just feels made for festive moments like these. Whether you're cooking with your auntie, laughing with old friends, or catching up with a favorite cousin that you haven't seen all year, Sprite keeps the celebration bright and refreshing. It's the perfect holiday sip. It's light, flavorful, festive and worth sharing. But heads up. Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry is only here for a limited time, so grab it now, throw it in the fridge and crack another open to keep the good vibes flowing. Your favorite flavor has officially arrived. Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry Sprite obey your thirst.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points. You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract for $250,000.

[Emily]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Someone will be eliminated.

[Unrivaled Basketball Announcer]

Pressure is coming down.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Trainer Games on Prime Video January 8th Watch the trailer on trainergames.com Season 2.

[Unrivaled Basketball Announcer]

Of Unrivaled Basketball is here and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Max support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you try transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.

[Mel Mitchell]

We had set up a meeting and we tried to keep as confidential as possible with the witnesses to come forward on this podcast.

[William Phelps]

At one point Mel Mitchell and Justice for Vincent and Shelley Facebook Page administrator Lori Cates set up a virtual meeting with about 10 sources. These potential sources wanted to feel me out, understand what I was doing, get a feel for this Yankee and my angle. They also wanted to meet one another. There is strength in unity and each of them would make the other feel safer about stepping forward. The ladies had worked hard at getting everyone together. On the morning of the meeting something happened which has become an all too common occurrence when people begin asking questions about Vincent and Shelly's murders.

[Mel Mitchell]

Some of them were really scared, and we wanted them to kind of meet each other and know that they're one, not alone. Two, you know, they could probably rely on each other. They felt like, you know, possibly they were being followed or, you know, anybody had called them and made them feel, like, uncomfortable or possibly harassed. So kind of creating them, their own little small group of knowing, hey, we are witnesses to certain aspects of this case, and, you know, that we're not alone. We've got a kind of a mini support group.

[William Phelps]

Neither Mel nor Laurie told them where the meeting would take place until the last possible moment, so as to keep it as confidential as possible.

[Mel Mitchell]

So we had set up a day and time, but we were calling people that morning to tell them the location. And it's a little bit further outside the city. And that morning I was driving out there a little bit earlier, and there was a SUV that was in the left lane because there's only two lanes, and I was in the right lane. SUVs in the left lane. And to be honest, I didn't even really notice them because it's. The traffic's ridiculous now. So I took the exit. This SUV cut off the driver behind me to get over on the exit. And, you know, of course, all I'm thinking is, you know, hey, some idiot just was about to miss her exit. And, you know, we all know how drivers are these days, so I didn't think much of it. And then we're going down this, you know, one new road that they built out here. And, you know, person's kind of behind me, not anything too, too far out. And we get to a turn lane where I had to turn left into where this individual lives. And that person pulled in behind me. So I got a pretty decent look at the person. It was a female. So we take a left, and she's kind of like really wrong on my rear to where I couldn't get a license plate like I wanted to. She's. I mean, close enough where I can't get a visual of it. And I don't know, it's just one of those gut instinct things where she. I'm thinking, okay, maybe this person does live the neighborhood. They just want to get around me. I'll just kind of slow down, see if they'll pass me. Well, of course, that didn't happen. So I was like, well, let me just test my theory. I'm gonna take another left up here onto an even more Of a rural road. And so when I did, that person followed me again. And I guess that's when she realized I was picking up on what she was doing. So by the time I'm wanting to slow down because I was gonna stop and just, you know, get out and really confront the person, and by the time I started slowing down, that person already pretty much slammed on their brakes and turned around, is already heading out to the. You know, to the highway again. So this person exited the neighborhood the same way we came in, But I went a different route and kind of looped back around the neighborhood. So when I came out, this individual was coming out on the other side of the neighborhood, so I could see she was, you know, leaving pretty, pretty quickly.

[William Phelps]

Keep in mind, Mel carries several loaded weapons on her at all times and has some loaded weapons bedside as well, which is something I myself have embraced recently after getting death threats deemed credible by my local police department. During the fall of 2024, after launching a narrative podcast about the Karen Reed case in Boston, the woman accused and later acquitted of murdering her Boston police officer boyfriend, John o'. Keefe. This is the world in which we now live. Who do you think that could be?

[Mel Mitchell]

I think it's someone that could have possibly been one of the investigators at a point in time on this case. But like I said, I couldn't get a license plate, so I don't want to 100% confirm, yes, this is who it was, but given the appearance, that's who it appeared to be.

[William Phelps]

But why?

[Mel Mitchell]

Maybe just to see what we know. I mean, there's a possibility that some of these witnesses may have not told them everything. Or maybe some of these witnesses may not have ever come forward and there's just new people that they would probably love to know about.

[William Phelps]

Mel Mitchell has this contagious, welcoming, youthful aura about her. One of the most determined investigators I have ever had the honor of working with. Her eye and ear for detail unparalleled her courage to dig, Even if digging is going to rattle cages and stir up the past some would rather not see resurface. She forges on, even when what she discovers might upset victims families. Because, look, I had to ask, what if all this talk of corruption and cops being involved, major political people as well, had all been some sort of a ruse, A deflection engineered by the real killer or killers to keep law enforcement off their scent? A lot of this time, talk about corruption went from the town square to social media and soon took off like a Texas mare in heat, gaining a life of its own. So you'd have to wonder if the murderers were working this angle.

[Mel Mitchell]

So Shelley has a hope chest that her mom have obviously kept over the years. And so in this hope chest, amongst other documents, there was this one newspaper clipping that she had circled these two individuals.

[William Phelps]

Mel gives me the names and they are not the two names I have been censoring throughout. These are two different young men. What would be the significance, do you think, that Shelly had this picture and had circled the faces of these two males?

[Mel Mitchell]

Now, I know she went to high school with both of them. I mean, and Weatherford wasn't a huge city or town, I mean, much less a very big high school either. So, I mean, what the significance of it was would be, I don't know as far as how she would have known him outside the ffa.

[William Phelps]

Another line of inquiry, once Mel began looking into these new names, also came up and could make sense when compared to what looks to be the execution style manner of murder in this case. Tell me about Vincent's ex girlfriend perhaps being a target.

[Mel Mitchell]

She said that for whatever reason, when she was interviewed by the police, that they had made a statement that she may have been the intended target instead of Shelly, for whatever reason. She hasn't really elaborated much on that. She had said also that they had never found the car keys to Vincent's car that night. She also stated that they had known, or she had known, that they had staged the kids after they were shot to look like they were making out. That's what she had told us. And that she had, through whoever she had talked to, believes that Shelly was killed outside of the car and that Vincent was shot inside and basically left to bleed out. She said the other understanding she had, whoever she's talking to, is that the police were covering up due to one of their own individuals possibly having been involved in it.

[William Phelps]

And so here we are again. We've come full circle directly back to that law enforcement angle. So that was her whole basis for this information, was that she may have.

[Mel Mitchell]

Known more than she needed to know. And so she said that she had gotten a death threat. One day she was at the movies and just got in a brand new car. And I guess that morning actually. And so she'd gone to the movies with a couple of friends and when she came out, there was a note on her window that was a death threat. And so she handed it over to police to say, hey, can you please look into this? And she said that was probably around late January to early February 1984.

[William Phelps]

Mel went on to say a lot of this. The idea of high school kids involved death threats, Shelly circling the faces of two individuals, pictures for some reason all centered around the meth trade and how the drug was then marketed in school as a quick fix weight loss drug at the time. So the theory is some kids got in too deep, knew too much, had seen too much and had to be taken out.

[Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry Advertiser]

There's nothing better than the holidays. The house is full, music playing, cousins talking trash over games. It's like the family group chat finally made it to real life. And right there when you need a fresh pick me up is Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry. It has that crisp cranberry flavor with a smooth winter spice twist. Just feels made for festive moments like these. Whether you're cooking with your auntie, laughing with old friends or catching up with a favorite cousin that you haven't seen all year, Sprite keeps the celebration bright and refreshing. It's the perfect holiday sip. It's light, flavorful, festive and worth sharing. But heads up. Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry is only here for a limited time, so grab it now, throw it in the fridge and crack another open to keep the good vibes flowing. Your favorite flavor has officially arrived. Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry Sprite obey your thirst.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points. You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract worth $250,000.

[Emily]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Someone will be eliminated.

[William Phelps]

Pressure is coming down.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Trainer Games on Prime Video January 8th. Watch the trailer on trainergames.com Season 2.

[Unrivaled Basketball Announcer]

Of Unrivaled Basketball is here and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running of out it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher and every athlete shines unrivaled. Basketball Season 2, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Max support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt from renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers. Growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not in investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.

[William Phelps]

When I mentioned near the top of the episode, there were a lot of strange deaths and accidents around the time of the murders, many of which seem to be connected back to Shelley and Vincent, much in the same way Vincent's former girlfriend might fit in. I was not being overly dramatic or hyperbolic.

[Mel Mitchell]

A couple of months after Vincent was killed, one of his really good friends, Billy Taylor, had died in a one man car accident. I believe his brother was in the vehicle with him, but he dies. He is 15. He's like one day away from his 16th birthday. So it's a really sad deal. He passes away and then you have the following summer. You've got Shelley's stepbrother who had the same last name as her. They had become really close before she passed away and him and some buddies were about to go to Fort Worth. They picked up the Bluebells, I guess kind of the cheerleading team for Weatherford. The usual Friday night stuff for teenagers. The way I understood it is there's two other people that got in the car instead. And so 30 minutes to an hour later those kids are in an accident right off the highway, went flying off the highway over an embankment and basically into a ditch and the car exploded, killing four of them on impact. Two of them were severely burned. One of they were both sent down to a burn unit I believe in Galveston. One of them passed away and the other one. There's only one survivor from that, but so that was five classmates right there that passed away in that accident.

[William Phelps]

The idea that Shelly and Vincent saw something they should not have seen and it was ordered that they needed to unsee it is a plausible explanation, especially when placed into the Context of killing a couple of kids to protect a multi million dollar operation like the meth trade. For some involved in that world, murder becomes just another part of doing business. And what shocks me perhaps most as I begin to get deep into the weeds here, is just how many people are willing and courageous enough to want to talk about that part of this story at all, seeing how many people have died or been murdered. And in that sense, I had to think the murderer could be standing right in front of us the entire time and we might not even know it. Alan Carter, who was entangled in the meth world at one time, had been hauled in and questioned about Shelly and Vincent's murders. You've heard from Alan in previous episodes. When did they polygraph you, Alan?

[Alan Carter]

They were so serious about it that they handcuffed me and took me to go take it. And when I got through with it, that polygraph guy said he had nothing to do with it. And I said, now take his handcuffs off me. And he goes, calm down. I'm gonna calm down, my ass. You handcuff me. You drug me all the way over here, made me take this stupid test, and I pass it with flying coat. And I get these handcuffs off me and he took them off of me. And then it was quiet right home.

[William Phelps]

So Alan, it's important to say if we are to take a lie detector test at face value, is a truth teller. Do you remember any of the questions they had for you on the polygraph?

[Alan Carter]

Do you know, do you hang out with. Where were you on the night of this? What were you doing? All kinds of questions.

[William Phelps]

Whenever we talk suspects in this case, those two names I have been censoring throughout come up again and again and again. And now here you have Weatherford investigators asking Allen about those very names. So it is a fact that Weatherford was looking at these two individuals as suspects very early on into its investigation. And from what Alan tells me, it seemed they were at least at one time hyper focused on one of them in particular. So this thing was really focused on, it seems.

[Alan Carter]

Well, somebody told him that me and him were out together. Well, then he failed his polygraph. That's why when they were asking me, I said no, he looked like. When they asked me that on the polygraph, I said that and I passed. It couldn't be. And they said, because they said he was in college, going to trooper school. You know how it worked back in. You know, you see them guys, they all got the crew cut, they're tall, they all wear tan, Tan cowboy hats. Same car. And they wasn't Hispanics, blacks and all this. They were white guys.

[William Phelps]

What could be the motive here to kill Vince and Shelley like that? What do you think? If. If it was or what? What would be the motive?

[Alan Carter]

They seen something they weren't supposed to on Piss Hill? They seen a handoff or something. They saw something up there they weren't supposed to see.

[William Phelps]

I needed to make a play at contacting these guys. Ask them to come on the podcast and discuss what people have been saying for what, over 40 years now. Give them their chance to speak for themselves. Remember, these guys are innocent of these crimes until proven guilty. They have never been charged. I need you to understand that one very important fact. They have become the focus of this case today only by the people in town accusing them and in several instances, doxxing them by putting their pictures and names out there alongside information we have no way of verifying. Not to mention I have confirmed that law enforcement looked deeply into these men throughout the early part of its investigation and for whatever reason, have not pursued them since. Was all of this a witch hunt? A carefully orchestrated design to put the onus of the murders on two innocent people? After all, nobody has offered any concrete forensic proof or a credible eyewitness statement placing either of them at the scene of the murders. I needed to understand their opinions of it all. Not badger them, call them out on anything, or accuse them of murdering two teenagers. Just talk and listen to what they had to say. So I called.

[Alan Carter]

Welcome to Voicemail is not available. Please leave your message after the tone.

[William Phelps]

Hey, this is Phelps. Coming up in the next episode of Paper Ghosts.

[Alan Carter]

I know that Parker county was pretty new back when we called it Crank. I would tell you all we ever heard was, that's kind of sort of how I found out about the meth problem. That's how we call the crank then. But we heard that, you know, there might be some shady things going on with the sheriff. We just thought we'd heard that he was always kind of shady or had shady beings.

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Because when I went and talked to.

[Mel Mitchell]

Arnold in February of 2022, that's what Arnold had said.

[Emily]

They had five scenarios and they had just got back from New Mexico.

[Mel Mitchell]

Now they've worked it down to four.

[William Phelps]

But I've asked her, and I don't.

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Think she would lie about that.

[Alan Carter]

He told me that this girl said she had seen. Seen the bodies shaking after they'd been shot. Now this guy's not alive, and I. I can only tell you what he said. And he.

[Mel Mitchell]

He.

[Alan Carter]

He wasn't just somebody that stole for me, he was a friend of mine.

[William Phelps]

Paper Ghosts Season 5 is written and executive produced by me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia Executive Producer Kathryn Law Production by Tak Boom Productions Audio mastering and mixing by Brandon Dickert the Series theme number 442 is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney.

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[Emily]

This is where mindset comes in.

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Someone will be eliminated.

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Pressure is coming down.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Trainer Games on Prime Video January 8th. Watch the trailer on trainergames.com Season 2.

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[Emily]

Guaranteed Human.