The Bodies Were Shaking

Summary

Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders

Episode: "The Bodies Were Shaking"

Date: December 24, 2025
Host: M. William Phelps (iHeartPodcasts)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This gripping final episode revisits the unsolved double murder of teenagers Shelly and Vincent in 1983, exploring the web of small-town rumors, meth-fueled underworlds, and police corruption that kept the case cold for more than four decades. Veteran investigative journalist M. William Phelps weaves together new witness testimony—most notably from "Frosty Cauliflower," a former local meth cook—with long-standing suspicions and overlooked evidence, exposing why justice has eluded the victims’ families for so long and calling for federal intervention.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Life in 1980s Parker County

• Teen Scene: Frosty describes cruising the strip on Friday and Saturday nights, with Vincent driving a prized Monte Carlo. Teens often passed through "Piss Hill" ([02:25–3:38]).

  “I knew Vincent from school…We used to go to lunch…with off-campus lunch, he’d let me hop in his car.” —Frosty Cauliflower (02:35)

• Meth Culture: Even as a freshman, Frosty was aware of meth (then called "crank") saturating high school life and fueling rumors and criminal behavior ([04:26–04:47]).

  “We called it crank. Then we heard that, you know, there might be some shady things going on with the sheriff…not that anybody ever proved anything. You know how bad rumors go.” —Frosty Cauliflower (05:06)

Corruption & Law Enforcement Complicity

• Law Enforcement Reputation: Multiple sources, including Frosty, discuss widespread rumors of police involvement with local meth operations. The Parker County Sheriff’s Department was seen as particularly shady ([04:51–05:42]).
• Systemic Silence: Decades later, even as the podcast uncovers evidence and interviews with current and former law enforcement, official interest in real investigation is absent. A “blue wall of silence” persists ([05:42–07:14], [18:15–24:54]).

  "The frightening part of it all, even after 40 plus years, no one...not a prosecutor, a fellow law enforcement officer or federal authorities had done anything about it." —M. William Phelps (05:42)

The Night of the Murders

• Eyewitness Memories: Frosty last saw Vincent and Shelly in Vincent's parents’ Monte Carlo, seemingly happy and not apprehensive. This was before 9pm, and they were later reported to have driven to Azel, TX, for unknown reasons ([07:14–09:33]).
• Rumors and Red Herrings: Numerous alternate theories circulated—mistaken identity over another similar Monte Carlo, purported drug deals gone wrong, and the idea of the teens being in the wrong place at the wrong time ([10:31–13:46]).

  “The theory being someone was looking for a guy in a Monte Carlo who owed money to drug dealers and thought it was Vincent.” —Narrator (11:12)

• Shocking Reveal: According to a key source, Shelly and Vincent left the strip for a meth cook house where they "saw something and someone they shouldn't have seen," leading directly to their execution ([12:25–13:46]).

Forensic Failures and the Cover-Up

• Crime Scene Mishandling: Phelps and Frosty discuss critical failures by the medical examiner and police—exterior injuries poorly documented; evidence lost ([13:46–14:10], [27:18–28:32]).

  “That’s already a huge question for me...why are you not documenting all the exterior injuries?” —M. William Phelps (13:50)

• Police Department Obfuscation: Weatherford PD is depicted as actively hindering investigation, sometimes staging public reinvestigation efforts for show ([17:18–24:54], [27:18–28:32]).

  “I think a lot of them were corrupt in their own capacity…As cops, we hate dirty cops.” —Weatherford Police Chief Lance Arnold (summarized by Phelps at 22:18)

DNA Evidence and The Path Not Taken

• Unexplored Leads: Despite DNA evidence being logged into CODIS, authorities never pursued key elimination tests or warrants, declining to exhaust all angles ([23:55–24:54]).
• Witness Harassment and Lasting Trauma: Many people who spoke up or were suspected suffered threats, harassment, even leaving the state in fear ([28:32–30:28]).

  "...they’ve been severely affected, horribly affected. I mean, some of them were threatened, some of them have been harassed. I mean, some of them like left the state. And so this is almost a closure for them too…” —M. William Phelps (28:32)

The Meth Underworld: Firsthand Testimony

• Frosty's Introduction: Frosty Cauliflower, a pseudonym, is introduced as former local meth cooker and relative to the victim Shelly, providing an insider’s perspective ([39:16–44:12]).
• Meth Cooking Details: Frosty explains learning the meth formula, running a low-profile operation, and avoiding big-time ambitions ([41:41–44:07]).
• Power Dynamics & Police Payoffs: Frosty describes the practice of paying law enforcement protection money and the consequences for missing installments ([48:29–49:29]):

  “...told that if he was going to cook in Parker county, he had to give him $10,000 a month. And miss that first installment, and they busted that cook.” —Frosty Cauliflower (48:29)

Who Killed Vincent and Shelly?

• Direct Allegations: Frosty claims Shelly and Vincent were killed after witnessing something (possibly a murder) at a dope house; that two men, not previously named in the series, were responsible. He relays that his information was ignored by police ([55:46–61:08]).

  “Suppose them kids went out there to get a little bit of dope and saw [a murder] and they ended up killing that boy and Shelly freaked out and he killed her.” —Frosty Cauliflower (58:43)

• Witness Refutations and Conflicting Memories: An anonymous source denies being present or knowing anything about the murders, despite being named as a witness by Frosty ([61:06–64:40]).
• Alleged Law Enforcement Involvement: Multiple references to police and high-ranking officials either being complicit in the drug trade or suppressing investigation ([47:34–58:14]).

The Need for Justice

• Frustration and Call to Action: Phelps expresses exasperation at the inaction and missteps, urging that only a federal investigation could bring closure ([53:48–end]).

  "This case epitomizes the failures of our justice system and the criminality of some to turn their head while holding out an open hand...The answers are there just waiting for someone with the moral fortitude and guts to step in..." —Narrator (64:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “No matter who I spoke to from that group, the conversation always came back around to the meth trade and how some in law enforcement were deeply intertwined with that world.” —Narrator (05:42)
• "They saw something out there they weren't supposed to see." —Frosty Cauliflower (13:59)
• "Silence in certain situations speaks so much louder and in volumes." —M. William Phelps (18:15)
• "There's a deep sense of a cover up. Even though we don't know 100% what the cover up is or entails, it's pretty hard to deny that it was pretty much a cover up. I mean, you can't be this stupid as a whole department to make this many mistakes.” —M. William Phelps (28:32)
• “We had a good time. It made it hard for him to get us.” —Frosty Cauliflower, on keeping his meth operation small (42:41)
• "Supposedly the killer is between...it's between them two who did it." —Frosty Cauliflower (60:09)
• "If you could see his face, you could tell it struck a nerve." —Frosty Cauliflower, on mentioning the murder to a law enforcement official (47:34)
• “I want to thank every source who spoke to me on and off the record. Your courage is admirable.” —M. William Phelps (64:58)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:25 – Frosty Cauliflower recalls teen life, explains connections to Vincent and Shelly
• 04:26 – Discussion on meth’s prevalence and police rumor mill
• 07:14 – Last known interaction with Vincent and Shelly on the night of the murder
• 12:25 – The "other Monte Carlo" mistaken identity theory
• 13:46 – New evidence the teens witnessed something at a meth house
• 18:15 – Communication breakdown with law enforcement as investigation closes in
• 23:55 – DNA evidence and failures to pursue elimination testing
• 28:32 – Phelps on cumulative suspicion of a cover-up, trauma on witnesses
• 39:16 – Introduction of Frosty as a key underworld informant
• 42:41 – How Frosty learned to cook meth; reflections on operation scale
• 48:29 – Frosty details payoffs to police, price of cooking in Parker County
• 55:46 – Frosty’s theory on what exactly happened to the victims
• 58:43 – Eyewitness account (via Frosty's friend) of the shooting, "bodies shaking"
• 61:06 – Anonymous source rebuts being involved, discusses Weldon Kennedy
• 64:58 – Phelps’ closing appeal for federal intervention

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Structure & Tone

The episode is narrated in Phelps’ investigative, candid voice—probing, at times weary, always striving for clarity. Firsthand testimonies from Frosty are raw, unvarnished, and sometimes graphic. As the narrative unfolds, it maintains deep empathy for the teens and their families, but does not shy away from the ugly realities of small-town crime, intimidation, and entrenched corruption.

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Conclusion

This final episode of Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders draws connections between known rumors, drug trade underbelly, and the systemic failures (and possible corruption) of local law enforcement that have kept the case unsolved for 42 years. With powerful interviews and persistent questioning, it issues a stark call for outside intervention and justice—not only for Shelly and Vincent, but for all those who have lived in fear and silence ever since.

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If you have information about the case, contact the “Justice for Shelly and Vincent” Facebook page or M. William Phelps directly at mwilliamphelps.com.

Transcript

[M. William Phelps]

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[Narrator / Interviewer]

Com Just start by telling me, like back in the day in the 1980s, how did you know Vincent and Shelly?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

I knew Vincent from school, of course. Shelly's Burgers played on my baseball team. I knew her from there. I used to go to lunch with Vincent all the time. We had off campus lunch so we would let me hop in this car. He got his car before I got mine. And we would, we would Go eat lunch.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

That is the voice of a man who knew Vincent and Shelly. He was also one of the kids from the group who, in 1983, cruised up and down the Strip, passing through Piss Hill on Friday and Saturday nights. What kind of car did Vincent have?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

70 or 71 Monte Carlo that generation.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

So besides his father's Monte Carlo, he also had a Monte Carlo?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

Yes, sir. The one that they were found in was like a 78 to 80 model. It was that generation. His was the early generation.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

I see. And so what kind of kid was he?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

Oh, gosh. Quiet, nice. Probably do anything for anybody. Very quiet. New martial arts and stuff like that. So he'd pop you in the head if he had to, but I never saw him do that to anyone. But he was always had a smile on his face, Right.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Did he talk about Shelly at all?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

He didn't really talk about her that much. I knew that they saw each other in the hall and stuff like that, but I didn't realize that she. I thought she was a little older. I didn't realize she was 14. But no, he never. He never really said anything. I want to say that. I mean, like, he didn't say anything bad either. Like, you know, they don't like me dating her. They think she's too young. He never said anything.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

What about the high school itself? I mean, was there a lot of meth around the high school at the time?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

Okay, I was only a freshman, so I know that Harper county was pretty known back then. We called it crank.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Crank, ice, meth. Same drug, different street name.

[Frosty Cauliflower]

I know that there were some around, but I found out about it later.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

And what about the law enforcement in the town? What kind of reputation did law enforcement have?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

Okay, Winford PD was pretty high up there.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

What about Parker County Sheriff's Department?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

All we ever heard was, that's kind of sort of how I found out about the meth problem. So we called it Crank. Then we heard that, you know, there might be some shady things going on with the sheriff. You know, I mean, not that anybody ever proved anything. You know how bad rumors go, as opposed to good rumors about people, businesses and things like that. Oh, we just thought we'd heard that he was always kind of shady or had shady duties.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

No matter who I spoke to from that group, the conversation always came back around to the meth trade and how some in law enforcement were deeply intertwined with that world. The Parker county meth culture back then was so fixed in everyday life, even if you weren't involved or a User. You undoubtedly heard about how certain members of law enforcement were so complicitly involved that God forbid, if you were to somehow threaten their means of wealth in any way, you had better start planning your funeral. The frightening part of it all, even after 40 plus years, no one, not a prosecutor, a fellow law enforcement officer or federal authorities had done anything about it. Not even looked into the possibility that corrupt law enforcement officials had their hands in the drug trade cookie jar or if they had hurt people. Quite frankly, nobody seemed to give a shit about the murder of, of two kids. And so it makes you wonder if justice even has a voice left in this world. And so the night of the murder. So tell me a little bit about that night. You go out, you know, you're cruising the strip, I guess. Is that how it works?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

Yeah, yeah. South Main was our strip. Yeah. I was on my first car date that night and so I had to go and talk to the parents, of course. And then we went and we were cruising and we went and saw it, grab something to drink and saw Vincent Shelley there in Vincent's parents money car and he just put some Cragar SS wheels on his Monte Carlo. I was surprised that he wasn't in it. But we just pulled up next to him and you know, waved and whatever. And I would say, I want to say it wasn't dark yet. If it was March, it got dark here, you know, still kind of early. So it was probably right at that time because I would have had to have been home by 9 o'. Clock. So it was before that. But I, you know, like I said this song. Hey, you know, they, they waved and we got our drink or whatever we did. That was it.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

You didn't say anything? You didn't talk to them?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

No, just, you know, just your usual, hey, what are y' all up to? What are y' all doing? I may have asked him how come he was in his mom's car, not his, but as far as got out and spoke or got each other's car. No, I, I don't remember if there was anybody else there talking to him, but it was just them in the car and, and I think it was just a normal. Like you would see somebody out, you know, on a Friday night or whatever.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

And how did he seem?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

Normal. I mean, you know, I'm. I have a good memory, I, I have a real good memory. But I mean I think I would have noticed if he would have seen apprehensive. And even though we weren't super buddies last time, buddies or Nothing. I. I think he would. I know he would have said something if he was uncomfortable or if they, if he thought somebody was following them. I just about guarantee he would have said something because, you know, we knew pretty much everybody. So he would have said, you know, hey, you know, someone that drives this type vehicle or this type vehicle or this kind of truck, if he was worried or apprehensive, I, I just about guarantee you he would have said something.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

He went on to say nothing seemed off. Shelly and Vincent were happy to be out together for the first time. This was about 9pm A time which, as I developed new information from a new source you'll soon meet in this final episode, becomes vitally important. At some point that night, according to a source related to Shelley, she and Vincent actually left the Strip and drove about 25 minutes northeast into the town of Azel, Texas, for a reason I will soon get to, which will surprise most everyone close to the kids. What was your first thought when you heard that there was a double murder like that?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

I guess my first thought would have been they got the wrong people.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

And as time went on, what were people talking about? What were they saying happened?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

Someone that lived on that road, somebody said that maybe he had something to do with it. I don't know how somebody we heard that it had come up on, maybe come up on a drug deal. I heard the thing about that license plate number. Supposed to be looking for that other Monte Carlo with another one number, different license plate number. Heard that those Krager SS that he bought were stolen and he bought them from someone else, but that person had supposedly stolen and the person found out about his wheels.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Those Cragar tire rims my source mentions were expensive, a luxury item. As a kid of the late 80s myself, I recall every gearhead in town wanting Cragar rims for their hot rod. So to add to everything else this source says he heard the vehicle Vincent was driving ultimately got the kids killed. The story was that the Monte Carlo Vincent was driving on that night had the same license plate number with only one number different from a Monte Carlo up there cruising the Strip at the same time. The theory being someone was looking for a guy in a Monte Carlo who owed money to drug dealers and thought it was Vincent.

[Frosty Cauliflower]

I know there was another Monte Carlo with the exact same color. We heard that the last number of the license plate was one off. We heard one of the rumors was that that's actually who they were looking for. Now, who that car belonged to, I don't know. Just heard about There being another one, same color model with one different on the license.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

When I hear theories like this, I chalk it up to active teenage imagination and high school hallway chatter. Another rumor to add to the list. The odds that the same car with the same license plate number with one number off being up there at the same time are astronomical. Come to find out, according to Shelly Cauliflower's uncle, Ernest Frosty Cauliflower, who you'll hear from in this episode, Vincent and Shelley did not stay on the strip long on that night. They took off somewhere near 9pm and drove 25 minutes out of town and wound up inside a meth cook house where they saw something and someone they shouldn't have seen. Something and someone in fact, that led directly to their deaths. Previously on Paper Ghosts.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

We know that they were killed with the car running.

[M. William Phelps]

So that's already a huge question for me as someone who's an me, why are you not documenting all the exterior injuries? Because you haven't documented any.

[Frosty Cauliflower]

You know how it works back then. You know, you see them guys, they all got the crew cut, they're tall, they all wear tan, tan cowboy hats, same car. They saw something out there they weren't supposed to see.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

My name is M. William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times best selling author of dozens of true crime books. This is season five of Paper Ghosts, the Texas Teen Murders.

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[Narrator / Interviewer]

Hi, my name is M. William Phelps. I'm a journalist. I'm working on a narrative podcast about a bunch of teen deaths around Texas during the 80s, and several people I've spoken to in and out of law enforcement have mentioned your name and that maybe you could help. I'm not sure in which way, but they just mentioned your name. I thought I'd give you a call. As I suspected, neither of the names I have been censoring throughout the podcast called me back after my attempt at contacting them. It's hard to ignore the fact that over a dozen sources have told me basically the same story, with both of these names dead center. And once again, I need to remind you that neither have been charged. These men are, as we speak, innocent. It does not matter what anybody says about them. There is still no direct evidence linking either of them to these murders. I cannot confirm whether they were interviewed recently or by law enforcement, because law enforcement cut contact when they realized how close I was getting to Shelly and Vincent's case. In this podcast, you've heard from lieutenant Johnny Qualls, the current Weatherford Police Department Cold Case detective investigating Shelly and Vincent's murders. He spoke to me. He agreed to be recorded for the podcast. After that conversation, I began emailing him about our next conversation and what I would like to talk about. Qualls and I made another day to speak. I then asked Lori Cates to post a message on the justice for Shelly and Vincent Facebook page asking anyone with information about the case to contact me. It was, I have to admit, a litmus test. After that Facebook post, Qualls blew off our scheduled date. He said he was busy. We made another date. I sent him more questions, each email revealing some of the information I was hearing. He stopped communicating with me entirely after that, so I sent him an email on June 19th, 2025 Mr. Qualls, is there any chance we can speak again or no. If you could kindly let me know, I'd appreciate it so I can either move on or plan another time and day. With respect, he ghosted me. I have learned that silence in certain situations speaks so much louder and in volumes. Weatherford Police Chief Lance Arnold left the force several years ago, given the impression before his departure that he was interested in pursuing the case with investigators making one more big push to solve it Private investigator Mel Mitchell got in touch with Arnold after he retired. When I learned this, my first comment to Mel was, after you interview him, get him to agree to talk to me for the podcast. One of the things Arnold told Mel was that the Weatherford PD quite recently had reached out to the Texas Rangers once again for help.

[M. William Phelps]

And so when I talked to Arnold, Arnold told me, he's like, yeah, they'd actually reached out to the same group of people and had sent them the entire files of what they had to these individuals, the same group that we reached out to, and that they had been working the case for like, a year and a half, and they were kind of in the same position that Weatherford was in. Like, they didn't have enough solid evidence to move forward on anybody. We didn't really get into the evidence as much as I wanted to. I mean, like I said, we only have about an hour to talk. But I was really surprised that he was. He was very open in the fact that, you know, hey, I'm actually, you know, I. I totally get the podcast. You know, there needs to be a light shine on this. Maybe you'll kind of force things to kind of come forward and the right thing will be done. I did tell him. I'm like, I'm not out to get Weatherford. Especially with the current pd. There's a lot of gut people out there that have no clue who these kids are. They're not from Weatherford. They're new officers. You know, we're not trying to do some kind of, you know, witch hunt on Weatherford pd. But now on the original law enforcement, you know, the original investigators, it's a little bit of a different story, because I think a lot of them were corrupt in their own capacity. And he's like, well, if that's the case and that's on them, he's like, because I can tell right now, as cops, we hate dirty cops. So he's like, if y' all find some improprieties or, you know, corruption on their behalf on the original investigators and stuff like that, then have at it. You know, more power to you.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

I think based on everything I have been able to report in this series, improprieties would be the understatement of the entire podcast. Here is justice for Vincent and Shelley Facebook administrator Lori Cates.

[M. William Phelps]

Once again, it's the DNA that I was told by a former Texas Ranger that there was DNA loaded into CODIS and there hasn't been a hit yet. And he said the next step would be to test Somebody in Vincent's family to make sure. Because we've been told DNA profiles, plural, there were DNA profiles, they were loaded into codis, hadn't been hit yet. So he was talking about eliminating, making sure that Vincent Jr. S DNA was eliminated from those profiles. And then the next thing would be to collect trash, test that DNA against what's been loaded into codis, and then if there was a match, they would issue a warrant for his DNA.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

On paper, or rather on a podcast. All of that sounds great. Exactly how cold case work can unfold in the real world. But in this case, in this county, with these law enforcement agencies involved, I'm sorry, and I'm not one to bash law enforcement, but I have a growing fear that justice will never be served. And if I was to put all of the cold cases I've ever worked on on a board and someone asked me to point to the one which was most solvable, this case would certainly be it. The answers are here. It just takes someone with enough balls and the willingness to set their career ambitions aside and go right at it. As I concluded what I could do for this case, there was one nagging question in the back of my mind I needed to answer. Within everything I'd found out, I had not seen any evidence of Shelly being raped. If she was, it could change the entire dynamic of the motive and offer the potential of DNA evidence being left behind. But these murders, to me, felt like an execution, a gruesome attempt to make two people unsee what they might have seen. On that night, Mel Mitchell had a long conversation with a Weatherford Police Department investigator involved reopening the case 20 years ago.

[M. William Phelps]

Well, that's when. That's when I made him very uncomfortable talking about the DNA. Like, man, he was. He was scared. He was very. He was very, very concerned. Speaking about the DNA. I mean, he couldn't look at me in the face, and he's literally pawing at the ground like, I mean, he was shaking. And so because he's trying to deny the DNA, at first, he's like, why don't. I don't know where it come from? And I'm like, that's funny because you had a front page newspaper article. And I was like. And I explained the whole picture of what he looked like and everything. And that's when he started getting really, really nervous. I'm like, so where would that DNA have come from?

[Narrator / Interviewer]

One of the problems is that the department has been routinely caught going back on its word about the case. And if we want to be frank about it, have perhaps even misled the community. Back in the early 2000s, in what looks to me to be a stunt to moderate public discourse turning against the department with regard to the case, the local newspaper ran a front page story accompanied by a dramatic photo of detectives announcing they were reopening the investigation and making a determined effort to solve Shelley and Vincent's murders. Now that's good publicity, but if you recall, some of the most compelling witnesses with allegations pointing to certain suspects told me they were never interviewed during this supposed reinvestigation. Mel Mitchell, when she looked at what, what they were promising and what they actually did, found a very big difference. What would it mean to you to solve this case? Why are you so fired up about this case?

[M. William Phelps]

I think for me, it's digging into it and talking to as many people as I have over this time period, including former law enforcement. You know, there's a deep sense of a cover up. Even though we don't know 100% what the COVID up is or entails, it's pretty hard to deny that it was pretty much a cover up. I mean, you can't be this stupid as a whole department to make this many mistakes. And so the more I would start digging this, the, the more irritated I would get because you just have to look at this and think, okay, this has to be intentional. Like, this has to be intentional. To have this many mistakes all over the place and to have this kind of evidence lost and oh, I can't find this, or the whole scene was completely trampled. I mean, just, it's kind of mind blowing. And to me, it would mean that, you know, whoever is behind all this or whoever was involved, you know, I think that they should, they should have to pay the consequences for it. It's just, you know, because the fallout, getting to know these two families, the dynamics that fallout these two families have been through since these two kids were murders is just horrendous. I mean, it's been devastation. And then on top of that, like when we talk to the witnesses, they've been severely affected, horribly affected. I mean, some of them were threatened, some of them have been harassed. I mean, some of them like left the state. And so this is almost a closure for them too, because they're still looking over their shoulders, you know, 42 years later, they're still afraid to this day. And so when I was talking to them, like, you know, it's not just about solving it for these two kids and their families, but it's also just kind of giving closure for you guys to, too. And everything y' all went through and knowing you can finally, like, kind of lay your head down at night and not think, okay, do I still need to keep looking on my shoulder? Because I'm still afraid of something or someone. So it's. It's a lot deeper than just the two kids, because, of course, that's the primary, but it's got a massive ripple effect in this.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

That sentiment is a delicate aspect of every cold case. With one, we rarely consider the effect the case has on witnesses who have had the nerve to stand up and talk about their experiences. They deserve justice as well. I need to go back now to a thread of the case we touched upon earlier, because as I got word that Frosty Cauliflower was willing to speak to me, a familiar name came back up. How would Weldon Kennedy, in that whole scenario fit into the murder of two teens in Weatherford, Texas, when there's really no connection between the two?

[M. William Phelps]

So, in the late 1970s, Weldon Kennedy had been caught for stealing a whole bunch of Radio Shack calculators, Like, the really nice ones back in the day that everybody had to have, you know, like, $65 a piece. Well, he'd stolen a whole truckload of these calculators, and he turned around, sold them to people or, like, businesses in Weatherford, and they were turning around, selling for, like, 10, $15 a piece. And so that's kind of how they got caught. Where, you know, of course, feds are looking into it. What happened? These calculators. And lo and behold, there's local businesses selling the calculators. He did a little bit of time, I believe, for that. And then afterwards, he got pretty heavy into bringing in some migrants from Central and South America to work in his factory.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Then Mel locked onto another thread, which dovetails perfectly with what I learned next from Frosty Cauliflower.

[M. William Phelps]

I found out they were trying to get an indictment against another classmate of the teens at the time.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

And what was the motive surrounding that?

[M. William Phelps]

That Shelly may have had a prior relationship with this individual before she started dating Vincent. But I haven't been able to find anyone that can verify that. In fact, we found a woman who claims that she was dating this individual at the time of the murders. I mean, not to say boyfriends don't cheat. We know that, but we haven't been able to find anybody else to really substantiate that claim.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Within all of these different stories, the truth is there, and it's almost as if it's so close you can reach out touch it.

[M. William Phelps]

I believe in this case that there are witnesses. And I do believe that there are people out there today who, alive, that absolutely know what happened. And I'm hoping that by doing this podcast that they will maybe be willing to finally come forward and give the family members and even the witnesses just some closure to all this. Because if others are willing to come forward and are still very fearful to this day, why not more? Because it's not just, not just these few witnesses. I just hope that someone does the right thing and kind of, I mean, even if it's anonymously, I don't even care. Just someone that comes forward and gives us the actual rundown of what happened. Because we know enough that if we hear the right story, we're going to know. Okay, that's it. Now we know that fits into all the pieces we have.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

That's.

[M. William Phelps]

That's what happened.

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[Narrator / Interviewer]

As my investigation began to wind down, I was able to land an interview with someone we all believed would never speak. A few episodes back, I mentioned that Mel and I were searching for Frosty, trying to find and convince him to talk about what he knew. As it turned out, it was Lori Cates, who tracked Frosty down and decided to make a cold call and visit him in person. And just as Mel and Laurie had suspected, Frosty was not only full of new information, but he claimed to know what happened to Shelly and Vincent on the night they were murdered. I'm recording this call from my podcast, paper Ghost Season 5. Is it okay, Ernest Cauliflower, if I use your voice for the podcast?

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

Yes, but call me Frosty.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Okay, I'll call you Frosty. We'll get to.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

Ernest was dead.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Okay, so. So tell me about Shelly. You know, you. You saw a lot of her while she was growing up.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

I did with her early years because when she started getting a little bit, I guess, up in her. Her teens, I didn't see as much of her because, I don't know, I moved. I moved away from home and I was starting to be in that being alive. I was doing my own thing. She was. She was like, everybody loved her and it didn't matter where she's at. She wasn't going to shut up. She's going. She was going to chime in and say her two points and giggle and cut up and.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

And so tell me a little bit about your brother. Kind of guy is Ronnie.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

He's an idiot. But only I say that is because he. He's. He's just. Me and him don't get along. And it's not. I love him and everything, but he hates me. He blames me for a lot of things, and I was working on an ory when all this went down, but because I lived out there in that. In that life, he acted like that might have been part of it. He's got a sour gr. He's got a real, real grouchy attitude. I want to tell you something about Ronnie. He loves Shelly. He loves her dad. He'd tell me how this, even after we didn't have good rest. He told me about how him and her would wake up the next day and eat cold pizza. Pizza together. And how she called him. She didn't call him Ronnie. She called him dad.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Lori Cates tracked Frosty down. He said he would chat with me. I called him, I texted him, but he never responded. Then Mel Mitchell paid him a visit and he agreed as long as Mel was there in the room with him. And based on what he told Lori and Mel, Frosty was going to clear several things up. He says he knows what happened and who was behind both murders. But there is a part of this the families are not going to want to hear. Tell me A little bit about this lifestyle. So, you know, how do you get into it? How do you become frosty?

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

I started off being an addict. And as most addicts, everybody gets in trouble. If you're going to use, you're either going to sell or you're going to have to steal or you're going to have to do something. Well, I didn't believe in stealing, so I. I would try to find something cheap and turn it back on the market to get into the ladder.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

How did you learn how to start cooking meth?

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

Yeah, I started working, Frank. When I started working, I was selling drugs for them. And one of their helpers would go with it. That would help make it. Well, they got all messed up and they spouted off the formula to it. And when they spouted it off, I went home and wrote it down and I started. And parts of it I. I knew, but it took me a year and a half and I wasn't. I wasn't in it for the money I was in. I was in it just. Man, everybody stayed.

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[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

My little crew, and we had a good time. It made it hard for him to get us.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Frosty said he kept his business small. He didn't want to draw much attention to himself. But everyone wanted that dope he was cooking. They just couldn't get enough of it. It's hard to deposit $50,000 cash in your bank and account for it, right?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

Yes.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

I never would get over about 20 or 30. And then I just stopped. I'd stopped selling and we'd just party down until we'd run out of money.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Frosty Cauliflower has this rugged look about him. White, wiry, hair receding, kind of a pockmarked face, busy eyes, and a cockiness that comes from the life he led and the information he harbors, along with the knowledge of the underworld. He was once such a big part of. Of in Parker County. As many who have seen the television series Breaking Bad understand, when you run the best product, you begin to develop the most power and control of the market, but also attract the biggest players in the game. And who did you sell to? For the most part, a middleman. And then the middleman spread it out around users or.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

I had some helpers. I had a helper named Dennis Frosty.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

He gave me the names of his helpers, as he called them. One particular guy who Frosty became best friends with was his main connection to the bigger players. And this guy whom Frosty trusted without question, would go out into that world and mix with Everyone. One day, not long after the murders, the guy came back with some news. A narrative of what took place when Shelly and Vincent were murdered. And who. Who would be your biggest competition at the time?

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

Well, there's a lot of people worried about that, but there's so much money out there. I didn't worry about it. I got the formula. See, still, people that missed that didn't even know I knew their formula. And because it made a certain product that it, it. They just knew. They just knew whose it was. And they, the Fed just come to town and they'd stop cooking. They couldn't understand why the feds wouldn't leave town. It's because I just kept throwing it out on the streets. And yeah, then finally they figured out that I figured it out, was pumping it out, but that they didn't have the quality control like I did. When you do it, you don't want to do trash or a week. You want to do the best that you can make. So I'd always tried to do the best I could with it.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

And where did you cook it? I mean, you can't just cook that shit anywhere, right?

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

You can. I cooked it over off Barry String. I cooked it. I cooked it in the Mellow Esburg. What you gotta do is you gotta run it goes out through a condenser and you gotta run that off into your pine soil and water discharge. And then you won't get nothing but a pine sol discharge smell.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

What he means is the chimney discharged the scent of pine sol, not the chemical smell of the dope. Do you ever have any run ins with Kennedy the Sausage King there?

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

The runs I had with him was when I was a little bit younger. I had, I had run ins with. And I said he was, he was a scary person because he, he kicked my door. At one time, I was that living on Bryant street with this good lady, and he kicked my door in and I had, I had stuff, but it was. He had all over the place. And he said, tom Fry, you got anything? I told him, well, hell no, we ain't got nothing. He goes, you know, if we find anything, it's gonna make me mad. We're gonna do something to you. And when he said do something to you, it scared me. Well, anyway, later that night, hit back. Two hours later, we're outside and all they. All they found was $7 in my pocket. And they found no drugs. And I said, it's just me and him. I said, crying shame. You say, I'm a drug dealer. I got $7 I'm down here at this apartment. Ain't got no extra. It's a middle of July.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

We're just sweating and everything else during this raid. As they were outside, Frosty says he turned to the guy and began to talk about Shelly.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

And I said, whoever killed my niece after running loose, nobody cares. Got this blank look. You wouldn't believe what I mean. If you could see his face, you could tell it struck a nerve. He said, you know what, Cosmer, you're right. He says, this is. Went there and told them, guys, boys, ain't nothing here. Let's go laugh. They loaded up in five minutes and it's gone.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

The name I censored was a law enforcement official. The implication Frosty makes is that once he mentioned Shelly and Vincent's murders with a kind of knowing wink, they backed right off. I asked him if any of what I had heard about someone in law enforcement being a big time dealer was true or just another one of those Texas stories that seemed to grow like a healthy herd of cattle with each passing generation.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

Okay, this is probably the early 80s. It's a guy that's got a guy that took the sulfate dope, which, it takes more of a. It takes. I cook math, but it takes more of a laboratory and chemicals to cook that way. He had got me to go to Houston to pick up the chemicals because you, you couldn't get them everywhere. And when you went and got them, it's like you had to sign for them, give them your license, and you won't come into the place. And they locked. The door's locked, and beat on it, and they lock it and let you in. And when you come out, he said, don't mess around. He says, because they're watching that place. He says, you get on down the road and then I had to pull over on the side of the road and go through all the chemicals to make sure there wasn't a bug in it. But had told that if he was going to cook in Parker county, he had to give him $10,000 a month. And miss that first installment, and they, they busted that cook.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

He continues to explain that there were several dope houses all over the county where cooking took place. He said men in high positions hung around to pick up dope and collect money. And the entire doping community was in one way or another connected, which was where the motivation and opportunity to kill his niece and Vincent, according to Frosty, entered the situation. And that order came directly from the top.

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[Narrator / Interviewer]

I am not one to take conspiracy theories seriously, even when my better judgment tells me to take a closer look. I just think when you step into the ring of conspiracy, your logic is tainted right away and whatever you find seems to fit right into that conspiratorial mold. And even more dangerous, you begin to write off obvious evidence as part of the conspiracy and wind up in this sort of algorithmic echo chamber. A conspiracy is not what we have in this case. Corruption is a different animal entirely. Part of it involves gaslighting the public to a very large extent. And when you are in law enforcement, it doesn't take a lot of people to make that happen. You just need them in the right positions. With the lack of movement in this case, along with the disappearing evidence, I think it's safe to say at this point that corruption within the investigation into Shelly and Vincent's murders was actively going on. By whom and why? Well, those are different questions and the answers need a federal probe coming in and taking over, which I hope will happen once word gets out. It's the only hope left for the families ever getting justice. Before we continue, I want to say up front some of what will be reported here is going to hurt the victims families There is no way around this information for me as a journalist searching for the truth. But if some modicum of hurt can lead them to closure, then I believe it's worth the pain.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

If you went toward Eichel and poured you out. But if you took a left at the store, he'd go back in their community. In his trailer house.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Frosty is talking about where the murders took place. He then mentions two names.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

They got married. But anyway, they was living out there. And I used to go out there in the store. Well, come to find out that was what was Dope House. Supposedly. Them two, the kids, they came out there, just want to score a little bit. And I didn't know Shelly was involved in that or anything, but she was. She wasn't in a dope world like what you think she was. I heard that they just wanted to buy a little bit, you know, because she was so. To me, she was so pretty and bubbly. It didn't shock me that she would. That she was going out. It shot me that. It shot me in the situation that had it all happened, you know what I'm saying?

[Frosty Cauliflower]

More or less.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

I didn't know if she was even dating to the truth, you know what I'm saying? That boy, that Spanish boy supposedly saw and out there at the same time, and they killed him because they sprayed word to get out. And Shelly started freaking out. And they came over. He told me that this girl said she had seen. Seen the bodies shaking after they'd been shot. Now this guy's not alive. And I can only tell you what he said. He wasn't just somebody that stole for me. He was a friend of mine. I mean, I thought the world is.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

This case for me is so entirely solvable. It's almost as if there is a lack of desire to see closure. It's hard for this New Englander to fathom or even admit it exists. But there is a different form of justice in the Southwest and a strong sense of blue protecting blue. We have that up here in the Northeast to a certain extent, as well as across the country. But in the Southwest, and especially Texas, like most things, it seems to be on a much bigger scale.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

My daddy comes, say, wife, Officer, you had something to do with it. I wouldn't hurt that girl for all the money in the world. You know what I'm saying?

[Narrator / Interviewer]

I asked Frosty to go through everything one more time and add any additional information he could think of. He paused for several minutes. Then this.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

Totally wanted mo. You know, I used to run that dope circle. And that's totally one of them was out there. It got happened out. Supposedly it got happened out there at like you going to Hazel before you got to Hazel. If you took. There's a little community there that had a store turned up in there that was dope ass. But suppose them kids went out there to get a little bit of dope and saw and they ended up killing that boy and Shelly freaked out and he killed her. How I heard this was like I said, I was in. I was in that old dope circle for a while and was helping me get rid of some dope. And he talked to who said she was there and saw the shaking body.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Frosty names a source I had spoken to and said this source witnessed the murders but had kept that knowledge from me. He also names two different men from those I have been censoring as the two individuals responsible for the murders. Names I had never heard, adding how my source holds the key to it all.

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

Don't you use that name. You say sign a statement saying that you told him you saw the shaking bodies after they were shot. If I knew for sure, supposedly the killer is between or one of them. It's between them two who did it.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

I went back to my source, the person Frosty names and I asked about witnessing any of this and if she knew the names Frosty had mentioned. So I heard about this. A dope house in Azel. Do you ever, ever know about a dope house in Azel? Of.

[M. William Phelps]

No.

[Anonymous Source]

I didn't mess with. I'm gonna tell you right now. He was dangerous.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

And then another name came up. You know, a guy named.

[Anonymous Source]

Yeah, I remember. He was just another little white trash boy.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Was he a doper or.

[Sponsor Voice (Delta SkyMiles)]

I didn't.

[Anonymous Source]

I remember his name, but I, I don't recall what he did.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

She went on to say she had no idea about the murders. She was not there, had never heard the names. I was told. And then as you can hear, she changes the subject abruptly and brings up the name of another meth cook and dealer.

[Anonymous Source]

You know, just remember his name. I think he was dark headed maybe, but I don't remember. You know what somebody brought up to me the other day was oh yeah.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

I've heard that name. And, and it, it, that was, that was run down by law enforcement. That lead really hard. They really went after that pretty hard and they didn't find nothing. I asked her about Weldon Kennedy. Did she know him? What kind of guy was he?

[Anonymous Source]

I stayed at the Kennedys, you know, if, if I, if I Told you. My mother had me when she was young, 16. So I kind of grew up on my own because my mother had to work. And so what I did was I stayed at the Kennedys. I was always welcome there. They was always good to me. I'm not gonna say that Weldon wasn't underhanded because he was. He hired Mexicans, you know, which was a big deal back then.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Well, he was. He was busted for that, right? I mean, he went to prison.

[M. William Phelps]

Yeah, he was.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Anonymous Source]

Yeah, he was. Those people were good to me. You know, I. I was a lonely little kid and I was allowed to stay at their house while my mother worked.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

So this information I got is from a really, really, I mean, really great source. I mean, this source is so close and connected to everyone in that world.

[Anonymous Source]

I never even seen, even close to Weldon. Never seen him in the same spot. Was at Kennedy Sausage a lot. I can't say that Weldon was a part of anything. He was. He was the nervous ninny that owned Kennedy sausage. That's how I looked at him.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

He's being portrayed to me by a lot of people as, you know, a big player.

[M. William Phelps]

Big.

[Anonymous Source]

I'm going to tell you this. I was standing right in the middle of all of the Kennedy. Kennedy sausage. I remember the first year that Kennedy Sausage made a million dollars in part time out there. I remember Thanksgiving and Weldon. I never saw any of the darkness that people want to portray him as. I'm not saying he didn't. He wasn't up to no good. I'm saying I never saw. No, not any of it. I mean, he was just a money maker.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

But now the opposite end of that. He was. He was bad, bad stuff.

[Anonymous Source]

Oh, my God, he was a piece.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

All that being said here is the gut punch of what you've just heard. Frosty says that when investigators came to him, he told them the exact same story he gave to me. And they did nothing. Which leads me to. Is Frosty the best source for information? A known admitted meth cook and dealer who spent time in prison for his deeds? Possibly not, but it's a lead that should be explored nonetheless. In a March 1983 article on the front page of the Fort Worth Star Telegram, Tom Vick, the obviously young 28 year old mayor of Weatherford, said he'd give the police department whatever it needed to solve the case. This kind of thing won't be permitted here. Vic is quoted. The people won't put up with it. Max Smith, the DA doubled down in the same article. Adding, we have a strong law abiding community here. As we know nothing has happened since that time. Over 42 years later as I record this, and contrary to that political gibberish coming from the mouths of the powers that be in the county, the people have put up with it and this kind of thing has been permitted. The answers are there just waiting for someone with the moral fortitude and guts to step in, step up, and as former Chief Arnold told Mel, do the right thing. This case epitomizes the failures of our justice system and the criminality of some to turn their head while holding out an open hand. It cannot be underscored enough that federal authorities need to be called in to clean this mess up. If they do, the victims families and those with the courage to speak out can at least live the rest of their days knowing that Shelley and Vincent's lives, however short, mattered. I want to thank every source who spoke to me on and off the record. Your courage is admirable. Also, there's no possible way I could have produced this season and conducted the investigation I did without the boundless courage and help of Mel Mitchell and Lori Cates. They are two of the most determined, brave and honest women I have ever had the honor of working with. This season would have never happened if Lori Cates many years ago had not sent me an unsolicited email asking if I could help. If you have any information information about this case, please go to the justice for Shelley and Vincent Facebook page and send a private direct message to the administrator. Your privacy will be held in the highest regard. You can also reach out to me [e-mail].

[Frosty Cauliflower (alternate label for same speaker)]

Foreign.

[Narrator / Interviewer]

Please check out my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing person and cold case murder each week. Wherever you get your favorite shows, paper Ghost Season 5 is written and executive produced by me, M. William Phelps, Script Consulting by iHeartMedia Executive Producer Kathryn Law Production by Tak Boom Productions Audio mastering and mixing by Brandon Dicker the series theme number 442 is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney.

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[M. William Phelps]

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[M. William Phelps]

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