← Parenting in a Tech World
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A
Today, we are thrilled to welcome Dr. Jean Twenge, a psychologist and professor at San Diego State University whose groundbreaking research has been shaping the conversation around kids, technology, and mental health for years. Dr. Twenge is the author of several influential books, including her latest, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World. Her research has provided some of the earliest and most compelling evidence of linking smartphone use and social media to the rising rates of teen depression, anxiety, and loneliness. Today we'll be diving into what her decades of studying generational trends have revealed about how technology is reshaping childhood and most importantly, what parents can actually do about it. Doctor Twenge, thank you so much for being here.
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B
You're very welcome. Thanks for having me on.
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A
So, for listeners who may not be familiar with your work, can you tell us about your background and how you became a leading researcher on generational differences in tech's impact on mental health?
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B
Yeah, so I did start with that piece on generational differences. So I work with these big surveys of teens that get people from all across the country, and they've done that for decades. So they ask a bunch of questions, including how kids are feeling, so symptoms of depression, for example, and how they use their time and what's important to them and so on. And in that data on the symptoms of depression, right around 2012, I started to see a huge increase. Yes. And it started, I thought maybe it was a blip, but then it kept going and it kept getting bigger year after year after year. And that, of course, begged the question of why, why, why was this happening? Really early on, it was clear it wasn't just that survey. It started to pop up everywhere we had data. It was also clear it wasn't just that they're more willing to admit to problems because we also, sadly started to see it in behaviors like self harm, behavior. Suicide also was showing the same trends. So that really meant something was going on in the lives of teens that might be causing this. And at first, I really had no idea it was misaligned with the economy, didn't seem to fit any big events that were happening. But I was analyzing some other data finding that kids are also spending less time with their friends in person and less time sleeping. And you put all of that together? Well, what happened in the early 2010s? Turns out that's when for the first time, the majority of people owned a smartphone. It's also when social media use really took off among teens, and that really put those pieces of the puzzle together. It finally started to make sense. What's one thing that would cause all of that. And the answer was the phone and social media.
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A
Do you remember if there was a moment for you where there was a light bulb that was just like, this is a problem, and this is related, and I have to sound the alarm?
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B
I mean, it came together kind of slowly, but if I. If I had to point to one thing, I think it was finding that poll showing that the end of 2012 was the time the majority of Americans owned a smartphone. Wow.
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A
Wow. It's chilling. I've had similar moments where it's just like, okay, the line now connects these dots, and we know beyond a shadow of a doubt. We don't have to wait for any more data to be released. We can see what's happening, especially based on anecdotal evidence. We're hearing directly that too.
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B
Right. There's many different types of evidence. And so what I'm talking about is, you know, more empirical, quantitative. But we know from what parents are saying and we know from what teens themselves are saying about their experiences that something was going on that we needed to really pay attention to?
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A
100%. Your 2017 Atlantic article, have Smartphones Destroyed a Generation? Was a watershed moment in this conversation. What prompted you to write that piece, and how has the response shift shaped your work since?
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B
So that piece was actually an excerpt of my book Igen, which came out in 2017 with the headline of that Atlantic article. I always like to point out two things. Number one, it's a question, and number two, I didn't write it because I got a lot of flack for that headline, especially from fellow academics. But, you know, some things that are important to know. I don't think the same thing would happen today, almost 10 years later, because I think it's more accepted now. At the time, there was more pushback, but now we have just a lot more data and a lot more people who are convinced because they've seen these problems all around them. So it was interesting because I got the pushback mostly from fellow academics, from parents, and interestingly, from teens themselves. They knew. They knew already.
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A
They knew even back then, 100% that it's. Well, I'll pause on that. There's a lot I can say there just around addiction and ownership of it. And, you know, the first step in addressing a problem is admitting there's a problem. So let's talk about 20, 2012, because it really was very pivotal. And so in your research, you know, you identified 2012 as a pivotal year when teen behavior and mental health suddenly Shifted. Can you walk us through what you observed and why that year was so significant?
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B
Yeah. So so many indicators of mental health started to change around that time. There's a little bit of difference depending on which indicator. But early 2010s is when it all started to go up. So symptoms of depression, clinical level depression, self harm and suicide started increased slightly earlier than that. But happiness, happiness had actually been on the rise among teens and then just fell off a cliff around 2012. Life satisfaction, same thing, self esteem went down. So just across the board, everywhere I turned, there were changes around that time. And it also did coincide exactly with when teens started to sleep less. I know that those two are related from tons of research showing that phones and social media interfere with sleep, especially for teens and kids. And then it also had was obvious too, and I'd been working on this even earlier, that they were spending less time with their friends in person. So that slide started a little earlier. It started around 2000 when people started to get home Internet, but it was small, it was slight until that age of the smartphone and social media in the early 2010s. And then that change accelerated.
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A
Yeah, I believe anecdotally that the addictive, algorithmic aspect of things has really exacerbated a lot of these health issues. We're seeing either from consuming content that isn't healthy, or interacting with people who don't have your children's best interest in mind, or just to your point, a lack of sleep. When you're not sleeping, you are not achieving optimal mental or physical health. So you mentioned this. I want to dig further into it, but your research shows that teens today are spending far less time with friends in person, not going to as many parties, delaying getting their driver's license. What are the real world consequences of this shift away from face to face interaction?
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B
Yeah, that's the really sad part, is that, you know, interacting online is just a pale shadow of what it's like to be with people in person. That's true for adults, but it's even more true for teens. You know, adolescence is that critical period for friendships, for developing social skills, for, you know, learning that the norms of your peers. I mean, it's just historically that's been how it was. You know, you would ask parents about their 16 year old, you know, where are they? They'd be like, I don't know, you know, they're probably out with their friends. And that's just not the norm as much anymore. And look, you know, there's some upsides to that. Kids get together and do dumb stuff. Yeah, absolutely true.
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A
Been there, right?
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B
Exactly. You know, most, most Gen Xers, a typical generation to have teenage kids now, they have some memories, they know what happens. But there's a lot of good stuff that happens during those times too of, you know, kids hanging out with each other and just, it's really good for mental health and it's good for social skills.
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A
The social emotional learning that happens within real life experiences. Tone of voice, facial expression, nuance, those cannot be replaced from text based interactions.
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B
Exactly.
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A
So heavy social media users, let's say five plus hours a day, are twice as likely to be depressed as non users. But it's also been said that moderate use under 2 hours isn't necessarily linked to mental health issues. So can you help parents understand where that tipping point is?
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B
Yeah, so this is based on correlational work. We do have stuff showing causation now as well. Experiments that ask people say to give up or cut back on social media. And those, almost all of those show that after two or three weeks especially that people are happier and less depressed. And I think that helps answer the question because those studies generally are taking people who are at moderate or say average use and then they cut back to really low use or no use at all and their mental health improves. So I think we now are coming to more of a position that especially for children and younger teens, it's not just less is better for social media, none is the best. And 16 or older, you know, 16, 17 years old, I think much more. You could make the case that a little bit half an hour, hour a day maybe might have certainly fewer risks. Whether it has benefits or not, I think is still a little debatable. But not for the younger kids. And even at those older ages, not all, but a lot of studies show that it's the non users of social media who are the most satisfied with their lives and the least depressed. Sometimes though that happens at that low level, you know, especially for the, for the older teens that, you know, half hour, hour a day where maybe if they're really good at managing it, they go in, they see what their friends are doing, they do a little communication and then they get out. The thing is, that's really hard to do. You mentioned the algorithms. That's really hard to do. It's even hard to do for adults. Right. And you think about teens, it's even harder to close the app because the algorithms are so powerful, because the push notifications are drawing you back in the gamification. Kids and teens are just Very vulnerable to that.
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A
Incredibly vulnerable. And I'm so grateful for your work and the work of Jonathan Haidt and how much acclaim and visibility those new norms have received. I really can't think of a world in which it is good for kids to have social media before 16.
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B
Me neither.
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A
I'm waiting. I'm waiting to hear of a use case. Haven't yet. Let's talk about your newest book, the 1010 Rules for Raising Kids in the High Tech World. What inspired you to write a practical parenting guide after years of academic research?
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B
Yeah, I've always loved advice books. Yes, I actually had. That actually was my second advice book, believe it or not, about 14 years ago. I actually wrote a book on fertility because I have three kids. Yeah, because I was in my late bit and it was just, I had an idea to do it and I didn't think my publisher would go for it, but they were like, yeah, sure, go ahead. So I had success with that. So I knew I could write an advice book in this one. It was the collision of all of that academic research and having three teenage kids. Because when I first started looking into this, say, you know, in the lead up to that Atlantic article, you know, 2017. So I really started working at 2015, 2016. At that time my kids were 9, 6 and 4. And now they're 19, 16 and 14. Wow.
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Wow, there are so many parallels there. Dr. Twenge. I have a 17 year old son and Bark started Bark Technologies as a company, started in July of 2015. And what we have seen over the past ten and a half years, along with what I have personally experienced as a mom and the mistakes that I made and wish I would not have done with my own son, given what I know about this space, it's a really, really wild overlap. And you know, we release an annual report every year based on the not millions, but billions of data points that we have from analyzing children's text, email, social media interactions, browsing history, etc. And we're seeing a lot of things that are heartbreaking. The thing that we see is most pronounced, let's say over the past five years that we've been doing this, is disordered eating significantly increasing in children struggling with self harm, body image eating disorder related issues. And that is directly tied to how much time they're spending in these platforms that are making them feel like they are not good enough.
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B
Yeah, I mean, exactly. It's, I mean Instagram is a good example of that. Everybody's body is always perfect. And even if you know and there's studies that have done this. If there's disclaimers saying, hey, this was Photoshopped. Yeah, it doesn't even matter. No, it hits you in the gut. It hits you on that emotional level of I'll never be that.
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A
I know. And I. So I'm 45, you know, and of course, in my phase of life, I am working on trying to eat more protein and lift weights for bone density, all the things. Right. And I know better. And still I've had to keep myself off that app as much as possible because my feed is just a bunch of perfect people in their 50s and 60s, even 80s in some cases that are just cut. And I'm like, yeah, is that. Is that possible? Is that really possible? Is that even real? You know, I don't know.
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B
Yeah. And maybe it is for just a very tiny percentage of people.
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A
Yeah.
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But then it makes it the norm. It makes it look like that's what everybody should do. And. Well, I don't know. If you're an Instagram influencer and you can work out eight hours a day, maybe you can do that and only
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eat egg whites and cottage cheese.
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B
Right, right. Well, and also the other problem is sometimes it's not just, oh, they're in such good shape. There's also these accounts that are pro anorexia that are just actively encouraging disordered eating and starvation. Yep.
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Calorie restriction. Yeah, that's. That's some of the most disturbing content that I have seen firsthand of. Accounts encouraging very, very disturbing behavior that. That can kill.
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Exactly.
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And it's. It's. It's heartbreaking.
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B
So back.
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Back to your most recent book. If you. If you could share, let's say, three rules the parents could implement tonight to make the biggest impact, what would they be?
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B
So the first one is rule two, which is no electronic devices in the bedroom overnight.
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A
Yes.
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B
Yes. And that's not just for kids. That is for adults, too. Unless you have a super compelling reason. Get that phone, laptop, everything out of the. Physically out of the bedroom at night. Not just turned off, not just on do not disturb, but out of the bedroom. And tons of great research on this, you will sleep better and longer.
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A
Yes, yes.
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B
And then you gotta do that for your kids, too. So when I give talks on this, which I do a lot for parents, the idea is that you just physically get it out of the bedroom and you can put it downstairs on a charging station. That's what we do. If you think your kid's gonna sneak it in the middle of the night, you can put it in a lockbox.
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A
Yep.
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Or you can put it in your room. Some parents have done that.
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Yeah, yeah. It's. And this is a free, simple tip. You do not have to pay for any technology.
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B
Exactly.
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It's a location based tip.
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Yeah. And I like it too, because it's just, it's so straightforward. It's really hard for kids to argue because there's. There are so many things. And I know this because I'm the parent of three teenagers where. But I need this for my homework. I need it for this. I need it for alarm clock music.
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Yeah, yeah.
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B
You do not need it overnight. And if your kid says, but I have to have it because it's my alarm clock. Buy an alarm clock 100%.
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Buy an actual clock with no WI fi needed.
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B
Yes, exactly.
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A
I'm curious. You know, my son's 17 and if I could go back in time, I would do a lot differently. But you have the gift of having, you know, three children and so have you done things differently with your 14 year old than you did with your 19 and 16?
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B
Or did you.
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You already. You knew. You knew enough.
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B
I did know. Yeah. The thing that I probably changed the most on was the laptop.
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A
Okay.
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B
So that's where I made the most mistakes.
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A
Okay.
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B
With my oldest, for sure, was the laptop. We did really well on phones with her because she's kind of. I always say that she's a unique individual and I mean that in a good way. She had a flip phone until she was almost halfway through her sophomore year in high school.
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A
Okay.
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And she was cool with that. She just did. She didn't care that she was the only. I mean, she cared a little bit, but not really. She just didn't care. I know my younger two, not so much. Right. So the kids are different. And she just didn't care. So we just went for that as long as possible and that ended up being a pretty long time. But the laptop is another story because I think I just didn't process how much bad stuff is out there. This is the way. So this is the lesson I learned the hard way. And I try to be really honest with this in the book too. I of. Look, I made mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. That's going to happen, go back and correct them. And I also try to say, hey, here's some stuff you can do so you don't make the mistakes that I did the first time with my first kid. And then I learned and just really practically, like what do you do? And third party parental control software. Is where I came down on that, because I bought laptops for my younger two and tried to figure out how to do the Apple controls. And they're hard to use, not comprehensive. I've heard tons of stories from giving talks around the country for parents, but kids finding workarounds. So I came to that conclusion reluctantly because I know there's a lot of parents out there who may not be able to afford it, and then you do have to install it, but otherwise they're going to see porn. They're going to go to the pro anorexia websites or whatever temptation is there for your kid that happens if you give them a laptop without any of that filtering software. And I wish the world wasn't that way. And then we had age verification and content filtering, you know, just by law. But we don't.
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A
We're not there yet. Yeah, yeah, The. The graphic, violent sexual content.
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B
Yep. Gambling sites. You name it. You name it, it. Is that pornography? It's all out there, unfiltered.
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A
Yeah. I mean, somebody gave an analogy many years ago of, you know, would you drop your kid off on a street with every storefront was, like, a prostitute, a drug dealer, you know, a casino, you know, a predator, like, at every storefront, like, no. Then why are you doing that with their tech? It's like, yeah, good gosh. So as a mother and a researcher of now three teenagers, outside of what you've already shared with us, how else do you personally navigate technology in your own home?
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B
So the other thing that we've developed, one of the rules is no smartphone until you get your driver's license.
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A
Okay.
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B
So that's the rule we ended up coming up with. Because when my oldest stole the flip phone and she had her driver's license, there was no Maps app. Right. And that was a problem. And I just was kind of realizing, you know, that's really. When you get more of that independence. If you tie it to that, then it's not, oh, mom and dad are busy, I can't see my friends. Let's go on Snapchat. Then it's, no, I can get in the car and go see them.
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A
Yes.
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B
Right. So then it just. It just made sense in so many ways. And they're at least 16, 17 in some states. And you're really kicking that can down the road, you know, as much as possible, which I like. And then you have a kid who maybe doesn't want to get their driver's license. Well, they have an incentive to do so if it comes with a smartphone. And I Always want to be clear about this. Some people like, oh, really? A new driver, you know, that's not the great. The greatest time. Well, you're going to put parental controls on it. You're going to ease them into it even then. So I'm not talking about, you know, like just free for all as soon as they get the license, but tie that to the smartphone. So that's rule five. I think the book came out in September, so I'm a little out of practice with all the numbers. You're good. But that ties into some of the earlier rules, too, of that kids are going to want to text their friends and you can give them a flip phone, but it's going to stand out and it's going to be hard to text on it. So a basic phone, a phone designed for kids. Kids. And that's worked out really well for us for our younger two.
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A
That's awesome. Yeah. I'd be remiss if I didn't give a shout out to the bark phone that gives parents the ability to turn off texting while their kids are driving, as well as a bunch of other controls that the iPhone doesn't allow. But I don't care if you go with a bark phone or another phone, but if and when it's time for your child to have safer tech, smartwatch, smartphone, please make sure it's one that was designed with child safety in mind and not adult privacy. Which is Apple.
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B
Exactly right. And look, I love Apple. I have an iPhone, I have. The computer I'm on right now is an Apple. I mean, I had it in the 90s when people said the company was gonna go out of business. And I'm like, they're gonna have to pry this out of my cold, dead hands. Like, I am their biggest fan in many, many ways, but for child safety, unfortunately, it's just not the best situation. So. Yeah, and in case, you know, a lot of most parents get this, but I think. And look, I was in this category for quite a long time, so I think it's important for parents to know, like, what are the risks? Because going into it, I didn't want my kid on social media. Like, I'm talking about my oldest, and I just, I didn't want her to have that phone in her hand all the time. Like, I knew that piece, but. But what I learned with the laptop and then eventually thinking about it more with the phone is it's not just that. It's also that if you hand your kid a smartphone, then they have that instant access to pornography, to gambling. And a lot of this is on apps too. So most of the kids phones block, they block pornography, they block social media and they block a lot of other things that I think as parents we just didn't experience growing up, so we don't really think about it. And again, I was totally in this category for quite a while. Then I realized you hand that kid that smartphone, they can download the gambling apps, they can download AI boyfriends and girlfriends, AI sexy chat, like that's the new thing.
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A
Or even take with the Bark phone, we don't even give children the capability to, to take a nude photo or video that media will not save to the device. Whereas Apple allows children to capture any kinds of photos or videos that they want. So I think there are, you know, it's not about being a no tech society, but it's about just safer tech. Let's use tech as a tool. Let's not let tech take over our children's childhood and let them actually have a protected childhood, you know, with guardrails.
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B
Yeah. And I think we're fortunate we're in a time now that these types of phones are available because I think there was the misperception even until fairly recently that it's either a smartphone or a flip phone. And that's just not the case anymore. So Bark has it. Trumy, Pinwheel. There's a bunch of choices out there.
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A
Yes.
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B
And it looks like a regular phone. That's the thing that my younger two like, they don't like it that it's an Android phone. They still want an iPhone.
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A
Yes.
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B
But it looks like a regular Android or Samsung phone.
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A
Right. It's sleek. It's not, you know, it's not baby pink or baby blue, you know, with cartoon characters all over it. Like it's, it's, it's, it's cool like, and it doesn't, you know, it's like when I was growing up I wanted Keds, like the name brand Keds.
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B
Right.
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A
But we couldn't afford them. So I got the ones from Walmart that looked like kids. It's like you don't have to give your kids the top of the line everything just because everybody else has it. Right. You can give them, give them a little bit of room to communicate with trusted contacts and use tech for, you know, minimum viable product purposes without just giving them everything all the time. And it's also like, you know, when you, if you have the ability to get your child or help your child get a car when they turn 16, know you're not going for the Ferrari. You're not going for the 0 to 60 and 5 seconds. Like go with something reasonable, sensible and safe at first. Because they're learning.
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B
Yes, exactly.
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A
So I guess I was going to ask, you know, looking ahead, what gives you hope? I think before that is, do you have hope for, for what's happening? You know, are there signs that things might be turning around for the next generation of kids?
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B
There are some signs. I mean, so one is the idea of no phones during the school day, bell to bell, has really caught on in the last year or two, which is fantastic and amazing and wonderful, which also.
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A
Sorry to interrupt, but like, how did that, how did that ever get out of hand? How did we ever think. I know, it's like at some point it was like a normal thing for eighth graders to have a bunch of smartphones in front of their faces while learning. And like. No. Anyway, please continue.
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B
You know, I think it's really important to address some of parents concerns around that head on to make sure, you know, that everybody's got the right information. So principals tell me that most parents are pretty on board with this, that they get a little pushback maybe from the older students, even some of the students are on board, but that it's like a. Sometimes it's a small but vocal group of parents and almost always it's. But I want to get in touch with my kid. And what if there's an emergency? Well, there is a front desk. And would you have liked it when you were in school if your mom could call you at any point during the day? You think about it. Probably not. But okay, the emergency thing. Well, what a lot of parents mean when they say emergency is they're thinking of school shootings, which is an unfortunate fact. But school safety experts, virtually unanimous that students are actually safer without access to a smartphone in that situation, 100% because
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A
they're distracted by that versus any critical instruction. They could ding, they could go off, they could alert the shooter to where, like it's just.
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B
Exactly. And it ties up bandwidth. There's like. And I, yeah, I detail all those reasons. So in, in the book, one of the things that I came to as I was writing is here's the rule. And then the last part of the chapter is common obstacles and pushbacks and that sometimes that might be from your kid, sometimes it might be from people around you. Here's the arguments that people make against these types of rules, and here's how you respond to those. That was really important for people to have that in their arsenal.
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A
I'm so glad because that's what we need is we need just common sense, data based arguments for this is why this is best for children, for safety, for humidity, you know, just like, you know, the pregnant women used to drink and smoke and then we realized, hey, this isn't good for developing babies. And so let's not do that anymore. And when we know better, we can do better. And we owe it to this generation of children to make sure that we're giving them a better path forward. And of course, you know, I think we're doing a lot, you and me and then a lot of the people in the space. But it's not just up to us, it's up to big tech, the social media companies, legislators. I am encouraged that Australia and potentially now Spain might be banning social media. We just, you know, everybody else needs to fall in line, follow up suit.
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B
Exactly, exactly, absolutely. And you know, there's been talk about the Australia ban. Like they're still kind of working out some of the kinks in terms of the age verification, but that's to be expected and I think that will work itself out over time. And the great thing is if that does get worked out and we really truly don't have 15 and unders on social media, how amazing will that be for teens spending their time in other ways and for parents not having to hear the argument? But mom, everybody else has it.
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A
I don't want to fast forward time because it's already moving too fast, but I am very excited for fast forward a couple years when we can see how much healthier Australian children are presenting in their mental and physical health. We are absolutely going to see that and hopefully it won't take that to get everybody else to take action, but it's coming. Dr. Twenge, how can our listeners and our viewers support your work and learn more about your research and books?
- [31:49]
B
So I have a website that I'm not that great at updating, but I updated it a couple months ago. It's just my name.com, jeantwange.com, but that's got all the information about my speaking engagements and all of my books and research papers and all of that stuff. I love giving talks to parents partially because they are my people, they have kids. You know, my kids age and we, you know, we have, we have a good time with it. Lots of humor as well as, you know, getting across the rules and all the practical tips. And I also talk to middle school students and high school students, so There, obviously I'm not framing it as the 10 rules in the way that I do it for parents, but because I come to this from the perspective of generational differences, I show them that research and, you know, colorful graphs and stuff. And here's how it's different. Here's how it used to be, here's how it is now and the mental health trends and then how they're related to social media use and Internet use and smartphones and everything. And then how can you make better choices? Wow.
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A
There are so many schools, parent groups, community groups and children that need to hear what you have to say. Do you travel internationally or is it just within the US or you'll go anywhere?
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B
Pretty much. You know, when I go internationally, it is just much more of an undertaking.
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A
100%. Yeah. Case by case basis.
- [33:16]
B
Yeah. My favorite place to go is Australia. Okay. Yeah. So when they were considering that law, the premier of New South Wales and the premier of Victoria, the two states there that were active in this, they sponsored a conference to consider this. And I was really honored to be the keynote speaker for that, especially because I love the country so much. I've been there nine times and I had a bunch of other speaking engagements. I gave the talk right off the plane of the Red Eye flight, but I was so happy to do it. And the people I met there, like some of the parents there who have founded organizations, you know, encouraging parents to come together and agree that their kids won't get smartphones until they're older. And I met some of those parents who have found some of those organizations there, which was amazing. One of them, the talk that he gave about giving his 10 year old a smartphone because everybody else had one. And then how she danced less and played with her siblings less and was just not as present in the family. That became the introduction to the 10 rules book because it was so moving and powerful. And they took back the phone and she's I think 16 now and I think may not even have a phone
- [34:33]
A
yet, but probably thriving.
- [34:37]
B
Absolutely thriving. Yeah. So that was just such a great story. And they, you know, they work together to, you know, come together at schools where parents will agree. Not going to get the phone until later.
- [34:54]
A
I so your website, genetwenge.com that's tw e n g E. We'll make sure to link that wherever this is shared. But please, please reach out and have Dr. Twenge come and speak not only to your parent groups, but especially to those middle schoolers when they can hear from an expert that's not mom and dad. Just. It'll cut through the clutter, and it's very powerful.
- [35:22]
B
Middle schoolers are actually one of my favorite audiences. And I know, like, people who look, middle school is not all that much fun, and there's struggles at that age. And anybody who has a middle schooler, you know, knows that I do. My youngest is in eighth grade. But they ask questions that I don't hear from any other audience. They're the only audience these days who ask me questions I've never heard before, because I've been doing this for, you know, good 10, 12 years, and I feel like I've heard every question. But the middle schools are the ones who will throw me one from left field. And I love it. I think that's so cool that they will think outside of the box and ask me these creative and unique questions. I love it.
- [36:00]
A
That's awesome. Yeah. I love speaking to fifth graders, in particular, fourth and fifth graders, because they're just so beautiful and innocent.
- [36:10]
B
They are.
- [36:11]
A
And they're vulnerable.
- [36:13]
B
Yep.
- [36:15]
A
What can we do as a collective of parents, tech companies that make safer products for children do to support your work?
- [36:29]
B
Well, I know that you've had, you know, consulting and consulting with parents and what they want and so on, and I'm happy to see that continue. I think we'll keep that conversation going because I think there's certainly lots to be learned from the research that continues to come out. And I think that dialogue has to be there, too, because there's still some confusion. There's still some parents who are like, it'll be fine. I think there's also still some academics who are like, oh, but the effect sizes are too small to matter, really. You know, double the risk of depression with heavy use. I don't know how they could possibly argue that is small, but they keep doing it. So I think there's still things to be learned. And then there's the, oh, it's correlation, but not causation. But just in the last year, we've gotten two pretty definitive meta analyses showing even when you do those random assignment experiments. Yep, we have causation.
- [37:34]
A
Well, not only that, but the current lawsuits that are underway and the discovery process that had to happen as a result of those cases not being dismissed is incredibly telling of what these platforms knew and still moved ahead with. That's. That's just.
- [37:54]
B
And I have to disclose. I'm. I'm serving as an expert witness for those lawsuits.
- [37:59]
A
Okay.
- [38:00]
B
So I didn't know that. Good to disclose. But it also Means that I can't talk about the position particulars. Cool.
- [38:06]
A
We will not talk any more about that.
- [38:09]
B
Wow.
- [38:10]
A
I just got chills. Well, maybe, maybe in a few months or years we can, we can talk more about that or maybe you'll write a book. But I will not talk any more about that now because I don't want to do anything.
- [38:20]
B
There's stuff that's out in news stories that I include in the book from, from these. But yeah, it's only the stuff that's, that's public is what I'm allowed to talk about.
- [38:28]
A
Yeah. Okay. Well, Dr. Jean Twenge, is there anything that we did not yet cover today that you would hope we would as you know, a podcast video cast that reaches parents that are trying to keep their kids safer online.
- [38:46]
B
So I hear a lot of people say, even people who are generally on board with, you know, low tech for kids or safe tech, they'll say, but they have to have social media because otherwise they'll have no friends. And it is 100% untrue. It's just not true. And I think that's something that's really, really important for parents to know. It is absolutely possible for your kids to have friends and not have social media because they can text them, they can FaceTime, they can get together in person, they can call them on the phone. There's so many other ways for them to communicate. It doesn't have to be social media because this idea, oh, you know, I don't let my kid on, they're going to be left out, they're going to be ostracized, they're not going to have any friends. I have to quote my 19 year old because she said something about this that I thought was just absolutely right on. She said, look, if there is anyone who will not communicate with you unless it's on a specific platform, platform, that person is not actually your friend.
- [39:53]
A
Nailed it. Nailed it.
- [39:55]
B
Yeah.
- [39:58]
A
Yes. That is so important that that's the, the biggest thing, you know, when I, when I speak to parents that they surface is but my kid's gonna be left out. And I'm here to tell you they will be left out of toxic things which you want them to be left out of. And so that's okay as long as you're helping to prioritize in real life opportunities and safer ways of communicating over tech. So I'm so glad you brought that up. Anything else that you want to cover
- [40:27]
B
before we wrap real briefly? I think you mentioned that Real World piece. That's Rule 8 is encourage real world freedom. And that's the other thing that really needs to go hand in hand with this is we have under protected kids in the virtual world and overprotected them in the real world.
- [40:48]
A
Mic drop.
- [40:50]
B
Yeah, that's such a good summary of just the way childhood and adolescence has changed. So I am a huge fan of Lenore Skenazy, who is the head of the group called Let Grow. Yes. And so I was very fortunate to get some of her guidance for that chapter and also just came up with stuff from my own experience and the experience of parents who I've talked to around the country of what are some ways that you can get your kids to develop more independence, get them to make some decisions, get them to have real world experience. I mean, just stuff like dropping, dropping them off at an amusement park. My parents did that when I was 11 or 12 and we did that with our kids and it was great. You know, I didn't really want to go to the amusement park that potential day, but they did and they had a great time and they, you know, learned a few things along the way about, oh, we waited an hour in this line for food. Maybe we should have gone somewhere else. Lesson learned. It was great. And that's just one example. Yeah.
- [41:50]
A
Helping your children to build resilience and coping skills and get confidence in the real world through trial and error because
- [42:02]
B
that's what they often don't have when they graduate from high school and go off to college. So my 19 year old started college in the fall and she loved her roommate, but her roommate said, can you show me how to use the washing machine? Because she had no idea how to use the washing machine. Yeah, my kids do. I mean, they've done their own laundry since they were nine.
- [42:24]
A
Oh, you're so mean.
- [42:26]
B
See, here's the thing. I'm not right. It means that then they learn how to do it and you don't have to do it. My kids also, they also cook. They trade off Saturdays cooking. And they complain about it. They do. But then they're learning how to cook and I don't have to cook that night and neither does my husband. So, like there's these win win things.
- [42:47]
A
Yes.
- [42:48]
B
So Lenore talks about that a lot of how giving your kids freedom is not just good for them, it's good for you.
- [42:57]
A
Yes. There's, you know, a whole generation of parents that are burnt out and it's exactly, it's kind of by their own doing because they're doing everything.
- [43:09]
B
Yeah. You don't have to do everything for your kids. And I know that that's one of those things. I know you feel like it's your job. And you know, and look, some kids in particular are going to push back and they're going to complain. And look, I have been there, but I'm not going to back down on that because then they will have that real life skill of say, knowing how to cook a few, a few really good, healthy dishes and they can take that into life with them and they know how to do laundry and they are confident enough to walk around an amusement park or walk to school or any of those types of things. So in the book I go through for say, kids 12 and under, what can you do? For kids 13 and over, what can you do? All kinds of concrete ideas of how you can encourage that freedom.
- [43:53]
A
Amazing. So bottom line is everybody needs to go out and get the 10 rules for raising kids in a high tech world. Visit jeantwenge.com and just keep, keep the conversation open. Talk to other parents about what you're going through.
- [44:14]
B
Talk to your children. No, you're not alone. Not alone. I think that's the other thing. We're all struggling with this, thinking we're the only ones and we are not. You know, every parent I talk to is struggling with this. I am. I mean, the rules helped a lot, but there's just. So you're playing whack a mole with devices. There's like always something that will crop up. Everybody's struggling with this. Just know that, that you're not alone.
- [44:39]
A
So if Dr. Twenge and I, who live and work in this space are struggling with this, as parents, you have so much grace.
- [44:47]
B
Exactly.
- [44:48]
A
But don't do this alone. Reach out to us. Get Dr. Twenge's book comment under. Wherever you're seeing this on whatever platform, join the Parenting in a tech world Facebook group. There's over 600,000 parents in there. You know, I realize the irony of telling you to go do something on social media like get it. I get it. But that's also. It's, it's,
- [45:11]
B
it's hard, right?
- [45:12]
A
It's hard. It's trade offs. It is a powerful tool that can be used for connection and education. So we'll use it for adults. Yeah, yeah. And that's what we'll use it for. So not the comparison trap. Dr. Twenge, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. This is one of my favorite episodes to date. Very, very powerful and concise. Highly respect your work and have for many, many years. And that's, you know, just personally exciting to finally be able to talk to you. So thank you so much for your time.
- [45:45]
B
Thanks so much for.