← Parenting in the Screen Age - The Screenagers Podcast
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- [00:00]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Core issue is fear that they might destroy the relationship. And the messaging from the teenager is exactly that. You are ruining my life. You're taking away my tether. Even though they're not ripping away their social life. But the child feels that way. And that messaging through eyes, through words, through body language, it feels like that child will hate you forever.
- [00:27]
Delaney Rustin
Hello, I'm Delaney Rustin, primary care physician creator with Lisa Tabb of the four Screenagers movies. And this is Parenting in the Screen Age, a podcast about discovering the best ways to help our youth and ourselves navigate our rapidly changing digital world. Today, I want to talk about something that's pretty uncomfortable for all of us parents creating and maintaining rules that we know our children and teens will dislike. This can be especially challenging when those rules are around redefining boundaries with screen time. It can feel like the end of the world to our kids. And we can feel like the worst parents ever when they react so strongly against the rules. Take for example this grandmother who along with her husband is raising her 10 year old granddaughter.
- [01:17]
Grandmother
So our unpopular rule is that we are not giving our 10 year old granddaughter whom we are raising a smartphone. She often reminds us everybody else has one. It is tiring. We remind her the reasons we made this choice and that we're backed by both common sense and research that she would be harmed by having that access too soon. It's an unpopular choice. We try not to get angry about it, but it is frustrating.
- [01:48]
Delaney Rustin
And then there's this familiar story of setting nightly limits on device time.
- [01:53]
Parent of 11 year old
So my 11 year old uses a laptop in the house and we have the wifi going to her laptop cut off at 8pm on school nights. And so when we first implemented that a while ago, there was definitely a bit more complaining it would go off. She might be in the middle of watching a video and you know, we'd hear her moan, oh really? Can I have more time or can I go later?
- [02:21]
Delaney Rustin
So many of us can relate to examples like this and we all know how hard it can be holding boundaries that we know are important for our kids emotional growth and well being. So to explore this topic, I sat down with Dr. Laura Kastner, a clinical psychologist with over 30 years experience working with children, teens and families, and author of several highly acclaimed parenting books such as Getting to Calm. In our interview, Dr. Kastner starts by discussing a roadmap for doing this work called the four Calm, Confident, Co Parenting, Unity and Collaboration. We cover a lot of ground in this chat and to begin, Laura starts a scenario in which A mother has realized that every night everyone in her family is glued to their screens. And she wants to change this. She wants to establish a new rule that every Sunday evening will be offline family time. And she knows her kids aren't going to be happy about this. How do the four Cs apply to this scenario?
- [03:21]
Dr. Laura Kastner
The whole idea is that this is a moment of awareness that it's just been a slippery slope and it's gone too far. And the mom wants to have a new policy. So backing up, she goes, it's going to be really unpopular. We need to ideally collaborate on this. So it's not just World War Three in the household. Because any taking away tech from, especially teenagers who have gotten used to having and feel like this is taking away vital autonomy that they have is going to potentially be high conflict. So, you know, ideally you'd have a regular kind of policy review week to week, and it wouldn't be such a huge disruption to life as we know it. Okay? So that said, she says, okay, whatever. I wish we'd rolled it back earlier and you'd almost have a little bit of a smorgasbord so that the kids feel like they have some input. You say, okay, we could dial it back on weeknights and we could do it on Friday or we could do it on Sunday morning or whatever. But let's say it's just no, no, no, no, no. Then the parents, if there are two parents, or if there's one parent, you'd come toward the announcement of this to, let's say there's two teenagers and you say, I'm really sorry, I know this will be hard, but this is my family value. I think that we need FaceTime. And the key is the four Cs.
- [04:41]
Delaney Rustin
These four Cs are important. So I'll be jumping in here to highlight them. The first is to stay calm, staying
- [04:48]
Dr. Laura Kastner
regulated, because this is pulling away something really, really, really dopamine rich and very, very attractive and compelling for the teenager to have open access to their devices. And so you need to be ready for a big, what we call in psychology an extinction surge. Fancy talk for you. Take away the candy, they're going to freak out, right? It's literally, I love the surge idea because you're gonna. It's like a tsunami of affect coming at you that can make the best and most secure parent self doubt like, this must be horrible. They hate me. They're telling me they hate me. I'm the worst parent ever. I'm the strictest parent they Know they can't wait to leave home and have their own life. You have to be ready for a huge surge when you're taking away that goodie.
- [05:36]
Delaney Rustin
And then there's this C, be confident
- [05:39]
Dr. Laura Kastner
confidence that you have reviewed this, you've talked to friends, you've really considered it, and you have to have a really good, what we call a psychological boundary, so that they're coming at you with, you're horrible. And you sit there and say, inside your mind, I know I'm reasonable. I expected a surge. I can do this. I'm going to be confident. And here I am, very ambitious, even compassionate and empathetic. I'm taking away a goodie. I expect them to be outraged, freak out, dysregulated. And what goes up, like what we always say with anxiety and affect like this, whatever goes up always comes down. So it's going to come down quicker if you're really calm and confident, expecting the surge, and just hang in there. But it's a surge, it's a big surge.
- [06:24]
Delaney Rustin
Then the third C, co parenting, meaning working with a co parent, if there is one, to get on the same page as much as possible so that
- [06:35]
Dr. Laura Kastner
there's not splitting, because if there's ever any polarization or diversion from a policy announcement, they're going to find a Mack truck and drive a hole right through that fence. So co parenting unity is number three.
- [06:48]
Delaney Rustin
And then the final C, collaborate with the child as much as possible.
- [06:53]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Always with teenagers, if you can get any input, give them choices and have them have some preferences in there that's represented.
- [07:01]
Delaney Rustin
Now, in a perfect world, your child will come to the table with you and you can reach a boundary that has their full buy in. Hmm. How often is that? Sometimes collaboration will not happen. In fact, often. And so you need to know how to prepare for that.
- [07:16]
Co-host or Therapist
We're at this moment where the parent is actually going to kind of lay down the law. Like, you know, we've talked about trying these different ways or whatever, but now and then a parent's going to say, look, Sunday night, I really want to do this and we're going to do this. So I'm just saying as it. As this scenario, as opposed to, well, a full collaboration.
- [07:36]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Absolutely. The last ditch. I just got to do it. And it could be, we're talking about technology, but it could be, no, you can't go to the gorge at that rock concert with all your friends. It could be that I'm not going to let you go to that co ed sleepover party. It could be a Lot of things where you're just getting. I've looked at all the data, I've looked within myself. I, I really would ideally negotiate something, but sometimes we just give bad news and expect that surge of contempt and outrage. And I am empathetic to that kid that feels absolutely disastrous. So I expect to surge.
- [08:10]
Co-host or Therapist
And you say that as a parent that I know this is really hard. I know that's important to you.
- [08:14]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Yeah.
- [08:15]
Co-host or Therapist
So I know sticking to our case, I know Sunday nights you have a lot of homework and you have a lot of things like they're going to want to push back and be good debaters. But this is like, we can talk the details later if you want. But collaboration might be, you know, what time are we going to put devices away on Sunday night? There's always room for a little bit of their input. Would you agree that's a good way to say it?
- [08:37]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Absolutely.
- [08:39]
Delaney Rustin
There's of course, many ways teens reactions can play out and we have to be ready for the fact that they cannot feel good.
- [08:46]
Dr. Laura Kastner
One could be fine. But I'm not even going to talk to you. I'm going to get you back. I'm going to be on strike. And you go, oh, gosh. Well, I hope there's an opening over many Sunday nights where you might change your mind, but I'll have to live with that. You don't want to go, oh my God. It won't work if they go on strike or you say, oh, maybe you'd like to have a friend over. We'll have board games, you know, maybe it won't be 100% just family. See, they're all little ways you can say I'm compassionate about what this means for you. I like that.
- [09:13]
Co-host or Therapist
Yes. And that, that's wonderful.
- [09:16]
Delaney Rustin
An interesting point I discussed with Laura is the potential risk of holding a family meeting to announce an unpopular rule.
- [09:23]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Well, the meetings I find in my vast experience, by the time I see a family, lots of times meetings have gotten really bad reputations because unfortunately parents have conducted them with a little naivete that they're going to sit down and have Kumbaya and make deals. And they have meetings when there's bad news, not just good news, like, hey, I think you should have more gaming time and hey, you know, I think you should have more freedom.
- [09:47]
Co-host or Therapist
Said Said. No parent ever at one of these meetings.
- [09:50]
Dr. Laura Kastner
You mean if I'm trying to get him back. I often like to do that kind of surprise thing. If I can get parents on side to, hey, we gotta do some rehab on your Meeting, it's always bad news and fighting, Right. And that's that. I have to tell you, Delaney, that's usually what I find is that meetings don't go well because it's bad news and they don't like negotiating tech or chores or homework or curfew. And so it ends up with fights and a bad reputation.
- [10:16]
Co-host or Therapist
Yeah. And let me just say, to that point, when I work with families around starting TechTalk Tuesdays or some variation for weekly short check ins, I say start for three weeks just talking about the positives of technology, share some fun little videos, make them fun. And therefore moving forward, always start with something positive about technology and then talk about an issue. It could be societal one week, it could be not about the family rules all the time. I would have assumed in this situation with this young two teens that you might just say, hey look, we gotta talk family meeting time. And your point is often those have been done consistently about a negative thing. And so already, even if you're being calm and doing all this work before the meeting, their cortisol levels are high and the defenses are up. And so what would be another way to then approach it? Just go in and sit on the couch with them and say, hey, lean
- [11:12]
Dr. Laura Kastner
against the kitchen counter, you know, make it not feel like an ambush. But a lot of people would say, I meant to have that talk, whatever it is, whether it's about drugs or sex or anything, and say we just can't find, find the time. So that's, that's its own challenge sometimes with busy times. So that's why people resort to declaring that there's got to be a meeting. But sometimes it's just saying, look, we're going to talk about tech. It's going to be tonight before dinner or after dinner so that at least they get some calories in them and then just do it. You know, where there is a will, there is a way. That's what I say with all these people say we just didn't have the time. I said, you can find it if you want to. You know, it may not be ideal, but you look for at least they're fed, they're slept, they're not at their worst. But sometimes you just got to do
- [11:56]
Delaney Rustin
it More after this break, before we dive back in, I wanted to let you know about our four Screenagers documentaries which focus on helping kids and teens navigate the challenges of this digital age. We created these films to be screened in schools and at community events. Over 20,000 hosts have shown them thus far, along with the Movies. We provide discussion guides, promotional materials and other tools so that you can easily organize a truly impactful event for your community. And if your school wants to use the movies in the classroom, we have options for that too, along with a full curriculum of lesson plans designed for various grade levels. To learn more about the movies or inquire about becoming a host, visit screenagersmovie.com there's a link in the show notes. Now back to the show.
- [12:51]
Co-host or Therapist
Before we get into a specific technique about how to bring this topic up, can you just think of you're doing family therapy, let's say with just the parents or couples therapy who are dealing with a teenager who they know they're going to have to have a conversation like this. What do you often hear from parents?
- [13:08]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Often the biggest challenge is polarization. That there's a history of one parent being the compassionate one that wants to uphold the quality of the close affectionate relationship and the other one says, hey, we got to lower the boom. We've got to have some boundaries and limits. So the first thing is I got to get back to that number three, which was co parent unity. I got to work on getting them on the same page so that when they go in with the policy, they are tight as ticks. One of the things that we psychologists talk about behind closed doors is the irony that parents spend so much time dug in around their different belief systems. We need to care about their feelings versus as if it's a versus and not a both. And limits are important, boundaries important. We got to have some rules around here. They're both sacred. We're going to choose both and Right. And so we explained to parents that over time if you came to the middle on policies, you'd probably because of crowdsourcing brains be ideal. And if you give up some ground on both sides, you're going to do a lot better than if you keep dug in around your principles. So a lot of this is just to validate that it's completely natural to end up divisive on things because of this. These are our precious sacred babies. What's more sacred on the planet and the high emotion and then being dug in over time where you feel like your position hasn't been supported by the co parent. Right.
- [14:35]
Co-host or Therapist
And you're saying that it makes the positions actually even go further out and more dug in just given the anxiety in the system.
- [14:43]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Yeah. And the nature of polarization. I always say it always sounds profound to me, but maybe not to others. Polarize is a verb meaning if you count hundreds of thousands, millions of interactions over time. Let's say the kids are 12 and 14, 14 years, hundreds of thousands of millions of little interactions. If we have these different positions as two parents, we're pushed apart over time and it gets worse. I feel under supported by the tyrant. So I'm going to talk about the relationship and my child's feelings. He's going to look at this mess that's occurring with indulgence and protectiveness and rescue and he's going to say look at this mess and the kid has no limits. There's a lack of rules and expectations and they are both right. They need love and limits. They don't want to polarize. So what they both want is a better outcome for their teenager. So you validate both perspectives and say, okay, now let's pull it back with both, a value on both.
- [15:56]
Co-host or Therapist
Is there another thing that comes to mind that often parents get scared in terms of the calm, confidence, co parent unity. If it's two parents and collaboration, something other themes that come up, their fears and hesitation about doing an unpopular rule?
- [16:12]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Yeah, absolutely. When it really comes down to it, even if the parent, let's say there's a parent, I'll think of the one this week where she knew there should be a natural consequence for sleeping in and responsibility for the morning routine. And if she misses the ride, then she needs to take the bus. And the father said absolutely not. You know, she needs to get to school, I'm going to rescue her. I don't care what you say. So that father might be angry about we're in this mess in the first place and angry that their child has school refusal and a lot of anxiety. I mean we're treating a lot of things here, but when you get to the core of his, even his anger at his daughter, his anger at his wife, he, he's afraid, he's worried for how the things are turning out for his daughter. He's worried about what she's going to go through, whether she's going to be hopping mad that he won't rescue her or that he'll lose all relationship with her. In this case, he wanted to be the one to rescue. So again, completely understandable that he's afraid, especially when a child is angry and doing that extinction surgery. Extinction mean you're going to stop, that's extinct, you're going to stop rescuing. She's going to be flipping mad. Right. So he's going to have to be really strong and supported, not criticized by the mother, which he was in this situation being Very criticized for being the softy. He needs support from her about how hard it is for him.
- [17:36]
Co-host or Therapist
Support from the wife.
- [17:38]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Right, because she's the hardliner in this situation and he's the one that says, nope, nope, nope, I'm going to take her to school. So see how this is why those two parents belong with me alone in the session, so I can help him. Him feel supported. Understand, technically, we call this over accommodation and overprotectiveness because he's going to basically not have a policy and she needs to be more responsible for the morning routine, getting up, getting to the ride or through the bus or whatever.
- [18:10]
Co-host or Therapist
His way of doing it needs to change because we know clinically that's going to lead to the best. But you're saying, which I think is really important, is that the wife. It's not just in that moment where you're validating him and explaining the reasons and why this new way needs to happen, but the wife then, ideally, even out of this session, would be able to show empathy. Like, I get this is hard for you. And luckily we have a therapist who's really helping us know the way forward based on evidence.
- [18:40]
Dr. Laura Kastner
And I understand her being. I mean, in her mind, she's criticizing him for not being on board with how they're going to help her. Chronic absenteeism, her school refusal, and all, all of the things he needs to do for the therapy program to deal with anxiety. And there are a lot of things he needs to, like, learn the curriculum and do it with his wife. So understand, she feels abandoned. She feels like he's been a slouch. She's criticizing him. But we need her to support him, and I need him on board.
- [19:13]
Co-host or Therapist
I guess I'm just trying to summarize that as a big point. The. The first one, it's when the parents aren't in unity and they're really polarized is one of the big issues. One of the parents isn't on board. And so having empathy for that person. And they have to trust that even if a child is mad at them, your point is, yes, it's totally fine. It makes sense. They're mad. But you have to trust in the relationship and they're going to actually move through it because life is ultimately going to get better in most situations.
- [19:38]
Dr. Laura Kastner
Right.
- [19:39]
Co-host or Therapist
I can imagine what also happens is because of the fear of doing the work, or they had a little bit of ambivalence in them that when it comes to the collaboration part, they start just kind of backpedaling on actually saying, we're going to do this.
- [19:52]
Dr. Laura Kastner
And you know, I always go to the core issue, which is fear. This has been years in the making. It's not going to be weeks in the unmaking. It's really, really hard. And the core issue is fear that they might destroy the relationship. And the messaging from the teenager is exactly that. You are ruining my life. You're taking away my tether. Even though they're not ripping away their social life, but the child feels that way. And that messaging through eyes, through words, through body language, it feels like that child will hate you forever. Takes a lot of strength to, you know, hold your boundary and hold your calm and hold that resolute commitment to no, I gotta dial this back. I gotta trust the loving relationship I've had for 14 years is not out the window. Even though all the messaging from the teenager is just that.
- [20:53]
Delaney Rustin
That was Dr. Laura Kastner. A huge thanks to Laura for speaking with us today. This is a great time to mention that Dr. Kastner is one of the many experts sharing solutions in the four Screenagers films. Go to screenagersmovie.com to see how you can bring the films to your community, such as a school, a work setting to spark collective action. Meanwhile, you can have more of Laura Kastner's wisdom by going to screenagersmovie.com and in the search bar putting in her name and you'll find other podcasts that she's been in. What a gift that you chose to tune into the show today. The Screenagers movement is all about doing this work together. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast to get each episode automatically, and the more subscribers, the easier it is for others to find us. And if you give it some stars, that helps even more. Check out screenagersmovie.com to get resources for each episode to learn about our four Screenagers movies and to find my weekly parenting blog, TechTalk Tuesdays. Curious about a specific topic? Use the search bar to get answers from our many blogs and podcast episodes. Finally, I love hearing from you, so email me at delaneyscreenagersmovie.com what ideas do you have for future episodes? Today's show was produced by the following people, Me, your host, Delaney Reston, Lisa Tabb, Rebecca Tolan and Robbie Carver.