B (3:05)

I think it would be more significant if the European Football association banned Israel. And it would actually have a material value if the UK and the EU got together and pressured Germany to stop all weapons shipments Israel, that would actually possibly upend the genocide and save lives. What they're doing here is a hollow gesture to do something. It will have some diplomatic value because it will provide the Palestinian Authority with more of a voice at the un. But it's the same Palestinian Authority that collaborates on the ground with the Israeli military. There is no Palestinian state on the ground. The west bank now is a prison. All the cities are completely surrounded by military and settlers and military behind the settlers. And it's impossible for people in the west bank to travel between Palestinian people to travel between their own cities in what's known as Area A. So I don't know where this Palestinian state would be. There have been record new settlement authorizations in the West Bank. And of course, we see Israel right now as we speak is destroying Gaza City, which is the administrative, cultural and governmental base of Gaza. So Gaza would have been part of a Palestinian state. But then again, how would people from the Gaza Strip get to the West Bank? And then where's East Jerusalem in this? Israel has cut off E1, which is a corridor of settlements they're constructing in this corridor called E1. I've visited it multiple times. And it basically encircles East Jerusalem from the west, so it cuts it off from the Palestinian West Bank. And then you have the apartheid wall, which cuts that off. So, like, there is no possibility under what Israel has done of a Palestinian state at this moment. So it's a hollow gesture. And then what is the enforcement mechanism like? How can you tell the Israelis you must allow people from East Jerusalem to go to the West Bank. They're all part of this state. They all have to be together. You must give them borders. The enforcement mechanism is what bds, the Boycott, Divestment and sanctions movement was created for, which is to pressure Israel. And this is something the S is for sanctions. So the governments could just sanction the crap out of Israel until they allow Palestinians to live as citizens in their own state. But they're not going to do that because of the internal political pressure they face in the UK from the Israel lobby, which helped get Keir Starmer to where he is, which destroyed Jeremy Corbyn, who would have actually potentially tried to enforce a Palestinian state. So what really needs to happen right now, what we need to be focused on is saving lives. And lives can only be saved by cutting off all weapons to Israel and sanctioning Israel. Then this all ends. Then we can talk about, you know, diplomatic paths forward. I personally favor a binational state where everyone has equal rights. But right now we're witnessing a genocide. It's a holocaust. And we just need to stop it. And this will not stop it. Then there's one last point to your question. This does elucidate the reality of Israel that I presented in my book Goliath, which I know you read. And it's in Israel where there is all. There is no one, maybe a few hundred people who actually support a Palestinian state. So everyone says the problem is Netanyahu. Big bad bb. He's always been against a Palestinian state. He has guaranteed his supporters that he will prevent a Palestinian state. But where's the furthest? Who is the figure furthest to the left of Netanyahu who still has a voice in Israeli politics? His name is Yair Golan. He comes out of, actually I think the Meretz party. But he has been a ferocious militarist and supporter of the genocide in Gaza. And he just issued a statement condemning the recognition of a Palestinian state. There's no one in Israeli politics who supports a Palestinian state. And even if they did, they wouldn't support it along 67 borders. So we have to deal with Israel as it is.

A (7:22)

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B (11:12)

Yeah, I mean you had all these, you had like black New York politicians on stage recognizing an ethno supremacist apartheid state and attacking him for it. It's kind of like an upside down world and one state solution or a binational state where everyone has equality under the law actually does represent a dismantlement of the exclusivist Jewish state. And that's not a problem with a one state solution. It shows what the problem with the so called Jewish state is, which is that it's an ethno supremacist state that provides no rights to the indigenous people and who actually represent a majority between the river and the sea, who have been there for hundreds and hundreds of years longer than the Jewish settler class. Zionism must be dismantled in order for peace to take root. And until that takes place, we will witness a continuous state of warfare and untold horrors like we have never seen, including waking up every day to see children who Israel defines because they're not Jewish as demographic threats being shredded day after day. This isn't also because Israel is because of the Jewishness of the Israeli state. It's because of the ethno supremacist character. We had the same problem with apartheid South Africa. We had the same problem with the United States when it was a settler state, which is that until it can ethnically cleanse the indigenous population or crush their resistance as they tried to do in South Africa, they cannot consolidate the state as a so called democracy.

A (12:59)

Yeah.

B (12:59)

And this is why we see like leadership rising in Israel, like Itamar Ben GVIR or Bezel El Smotryk, but especially Ben gvir, because Ben GVIR said something that he believes, something that I actually agree with from another angle that's fundamental to his worldview. And this comes from his mentor Meir Kahana, who really is, I think the most towering figure in Israel today. We can talk about who he is or you can just look him up. It's spelled K A H A N E. And what he said, what Kahana said, and what Ben GVIR says is you simply cannot have a Jewish and democratic state which is Israel's selling point to the world. You have to choose because if you're democratic, you're eventually going to let the Palestinians vote and they're going to vote in their own politicians and eventually their own prime minister because they're growing, they're a demographic threat. And so we have to consolidate the Jewishness by eliminating them. And that's what Israel's decided to do in the Gaza Strip. And they're carrying out a holocaust. I mean, they're openly saying it, that they're trying to push the population out of their homes by blowing their homes up and then driving them into Egypt. That is. So what we're witnessing is the fundamental logic of Zionism playing out in real time.

A (14:15)

Yeah. And well, this is what Benny Morris, I think, was saying all those years ago when he was telling the truth. And he said that transfer was always, I forget his exact words, that it was always inherent in the Zionist project. But obviously, yeah, you can, you can only be like, it's, I think, always been the true nature of the Israeli experiment. Right. Is that like you can. They, they want to pay lip service to being a democracy. But the thing is, you like, if you have these two values that are being a Jewish state and being a democracy. Well, you can only achieve both of those if you're willing to ethnically cleanse the population. If you're building a state on Arab land, then you have to work out the numbers to be. So that you're, I mean, whatever. It's been around 80, 20 for most of Israel's existence because they move the rest of the Arabs out and keep them out. And, and so those there, it is like you can kind of be one or the other. And it's been at this point so like ingrained in their own conception of themselves and also in their selling message to the rest of the world is, oh, we're the only democracy in the Middle East. And so in order to be able to say that, they have to keep this amount of pressure. You know, I always think back to. And I'm not saying it's perfect, but it really is fascinating. If you've ever read, I'm sure you have, but if you ever read the write up on the Israel, Palestine or on the Zionist question in the King Crane Commission after World War I or they basically, it's not exactly perfect, but they basically get it completely right. They go, man, I mean this idea of building a Jewish state here is going to take an enormous amount of force to create and maintain. And there's just no way you're Going to do this without having a permanent state of war where the Arabs are your enemies indefinitely. And it's like, damn, if that wasn't pretty impressive to think of that in the aftermath of World War I. I mean, that's. But I guess if you're over there, that was just the reality on the ground.

B (16:11)

Yeah. And it was at a time of high colonialism around the world. So there were many. The great powers would have been supportive of this. They just wanted to be in control. And that's why the Zionist movement launched a terrorist campaign against the British mandate authorities. But one of the. I think one of the other major intellectual forces who looms large in Israel today, who employed Netanyahu's father, Benjamin Milikowski in New York, was Zev Jabotinsky, the father of revisionist Zionism. And if you read his seminal essay, the Iron Wall, which Israel's first prime minister, who was a Labor Zionist, sort of more socialist oriented Zionist, actually adopted, what Jabotinsky openly says in that essay is the native population has always resisted colonialism. Just look at what's happening in Africa. Look at the native Americans. The Palestinian, he didn't call them Palestinians, but the Arabs will resist us as well. And the only way that we can build a Jewish state is with an iron wall of bullets and bayonets. And so many Israeli leaders, Moshe Dayan, for example, in a famous speech at the Gaza border in 1953, said the same thing Moshe Dayan said, we cannot build. We cannot plow a field or build a home without the steel helmet or the automatic cannon. So this is just a straightforward colonial mentality. And it's playing out at a time when they're, you know, of postcolonialism throughout the world, when post colonial countries like China are rising to global superpower status. It's. So Israel's completely anachronistic and they're wondering why everyone is disgusted by what they're doing. Everyone hates them, and it's because they belong to another much worse era. And the only thing holding them up is Washington and its continuous supply, its air bridge of baby buster bombs.

A (18:20)

Yeah, yeah. And. Well, and that is why the kind of, the control of the American propaganda machine has always been so important to the Zionist cause, because that's really what it. That's really what it comes down to. And so that's maybe that's a good transition into, to what we were going to talk about today, which of course is the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the, you know, the reporting that you've done since then on what Exactly. The relationship between Charlie Kirk and the Israeli government and the broader kind of Israel lobby and Zionist influencer class. And this is a very interesting topic to me. I was somewhat involved in a lot of these, in the center of what the controversy was about. Although I do think it was more about Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly than it was about me. But so, you know. Well, it's just, it seemed like that's it. Although, you know, I, I think for a while there were a lot of people are actually pretty pissed off about me being there. And I think in some ways because I'm not nearly as big a name, particularly in like right wing or, or like Republican Turning Point type events, but I'm not nearly as big a high profile figure as Tucker Carlson or Megyn Kelly. And so me being there I always thought was more of a, it demonstrated more of a choice on Charlie's part. Like he didn't have to have me there. Whereas like Tucker Carlson, I mean, if you can get him at Turning Point usa, how are you not going to have the biggest right wing voice in America there? But anyway, let me ask you like the broadest of questions that you could kind of take in whatever direction you want to with the whole Charlie Kirk thing and the reporting that you've been doing on it. Where are you right now? Like what do you think the story is here? What do you think is important for people to understand about this?

B (20:11)

Well, I'm working on a new story and it's pretty much along the same lines as all the other stories I've been reporting, which is that, you know, in the days and weeks before his death, Charlie Kirk was facing not just increasing Zionist pressure as his, the date approached of his first appearance on his camp, his campus wide country cross country tour, but that actually he was bleeding Zionist donations. And I got the name of a major donor who apparently pulled out. I haven't dropped the piece yet, so I don't want to sell it out. But I just got him on the phone and he hung up on me when I asked him about it. So it seems like there's a there, there and that they were pretty upset at Charlie Kirk because there's no space for allowing comic Dave Smith on stage for debate. There's no space for debate on this issue. It doesn't matter what the purpose of the debate is. There's no, there's no, it's like how they say there should be no daylight between the United States and Israel. Charlie Kirk was allowing daylight. Right. Everything I reported is backed up by Public statements by Charlie Kirk and now by someone who had positioned himself as his personal Israeli handler. It's a guy named Rabbi Pesach Wallicki. I don't know if you've heard of him. He's from a group called Israel365Action, which is apparently funded by the phallic family of Duty Free America, who sponsored the settlement, illegal settlement enterprise in the West Bank. Real hardliners. He's also close to Regent University, which is funded by Pat Robertson. He's one of these rabbis that, like, his job is to groom Christians in the United States to support Israel and to support them as much as possible. I got some documents that he had been sending to his group, had been sending to conservative influencers, offering them, like, free tours of Israel, biblical sites, going to Gaz, the Gaza border, et cetera. And he actually is given a series of interviews where he said that he was talking to Charlie Kirk almost every day leading up to his tour and giving him talking points, and that they were kind of having an argument. There was a running argument. And that Charlie Kirk, he said, was believing a lot of things he heard in the media and that there were people close to him who were pushing him to be more anti Israel and that they spoke like, almost like the day before his Utah Valley University fateful speech where he was horrifically killed. There were also all these Zoom meetings leading up to Charlie Kirk's final. In Charlie Kirk's final days that I learned about, including with Joshua Hammer, this really charismatic figure that you debated. You know, I don't know how you stood up to that, just blizzard of facts, but he's. He's one of Netanyahu's young voices in the media. A NewsWeek editor, Sean McGuire, who's emerging as sort of like this junior Bill Ackman figure who's a venture capitalist very close to Elon, owns a house in Israel. He was on the Zoom call. He actually deleted a tweet where he mentioned the Zoom call, which is interesting. So Charlie Kirk was just under constant pressure. And just imagine having like this cabal of representing a sort of niche movement that is giving you enormous amounts of money and offering you more in order to say what they want. Just constantly calling you Rabbi Wolick. He said they were planning to set up a WhatsApp group to feed Charlie talking points throughout his tour. And they said they were very worried because he was. People were asking him about Gaza and the genocide, and they were one. They didn't want him to go off script. But just imagine having that those People in your ear all the time, just constantly managing you. And that's what this Hampton's influencer retreat was as well, that I had exposed. I broke that story. I mean, there were a lot of people kind of. There were rumors going around about it. And Bill Ackman, who's one of the biggest pro Netanyahu money men in the country, this investor who's worth $9 billion, sort of convened the meeting in coordination with Charlie Kirk. And what Ackman's agenda was there. And I think there was a larger agenda with deeper forces that were sort of embedding themselves into tpusa as entities like the Ben Shapiro's Daily Wire failed. What they wanted to do is basically buy impressions for Israel. So they were cultivating all of these young influencers to go to Israel to say whatever Israel wanted. I mean, just go to the Instagram page right now of Xavier Durusso of Prageru, which is like an Israeli. I consider it basically an Israeli cutout like Marissa Strait, who runs that is a veteran of Israel's cyber spying division, unit 8200. And she's supposed to be like creating the next generation of America first. But go to this guy's Instagram page. Like every subject. This is a young black man from Louisiana. Every subject is like, Zionism, Israel. It's obvious what he's doing. He's like a paid actor. He's a talented paid actor. He's a paid actor for these Zionist billionaires. And so they were trying to groom more and like bring in like attractive women. Anything that will keep the collapse, the looming collapse of Israel standing within the conservative movement from finally taking place. And where Charlie Crick was, was not where we are. He was sort of. I mean, I look at him and I've been following him for 10 years. He's like a natural born political operative. And all he thinks about is politics and votes and getting out the vote in districts and networking, doing media. He's very good at it. I don't agree with anything he said, but he's good at that. And all of a sudden there's this grassroots revolt among young conservatives on Israel. And he faces the groiper wars and nobody's like, very few of them support it except for the Jewish conservatives, who are like only 7 or 8% of American Jews even vote Republican. So they're in the minority, but they have more money than. I mean, they command billions of dollars. So he has to answer to them and the conservative grassroots at the same time. And he's stuck in the middle in an impossible position, and he couldn't bridge the divide. And, you know, he's constantly on camera, too. And sometimes he would just go off script and start saying the things he would hear from his friends and the things he was feeling. And he may have actually been disgusted by what he was seeing in Gaza. He certainly was opposed to the Iran war. And, you know, my reporting that he was actually going up in the White House and lobbying Trump and others against attacking Iran, which it was, like, totally forbidden, has been corroborated by J.D. vance himself. So what really seemed to upset Charlie Kirk wasn't, though, like, maybe the same things that upset us about this issue. It was that this coterie or cabal of billionaires who, who really seem only concerned about the fate of a foreign country was telling him what to do in his own country when he was supposed to be the face and voice of America first. And that was driving him crazy in his final days. So look at the reaction right now. I mean, look at the reaction. Candace Owens went live, like, a half hour after I dropped my piece and provided additional details and gave, you know, a really stirring narrative about the influencer summit based on what she knew. And she is the target of, like, a tsunami of attacks all from those very same forces. They're trying to totally destroy her. They're trying to, like, wipe her off the map the same way they're wiping Gaza off the map. They're overreacting because they can see the writing on the wall. Candace Owens. Look at her engagement. I mean, hundreds of thousands of views. When she goes live, then millions and millions more. Everyone's the. The conservative youth, but the whole, like, young people across the country are hanging on her every word. Nobody cares what Ben Shapiro has to say. It's all fake.

A (28:43)

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B (32:35)

Right.

A (32:35)

The Zionist donors. That was way too far. And so now they're furious at him. And as you know. Well, Max, I'm sure you experienced this quite a bit in your career. I've experienced this quite a bit myself. There is something, some personality trait or characteristic to the ultra hardcore Zionists that for whatever reason, when you start drifting a little bit, they don't go, hey, I get your point, and I see why you're asking these questions. And this sure is a complicated issue. Let's come back here. When you start drifting this much, they go, you're Adolf Hitler?

B (33:11)

Yep.

A (33:11)

And you go, wait, wait, what? I'm Adolf Hitler? Like, no, I'm like, just drift it. And then it just has this effect of pushing a lot of people further and further. It pushes some of them to say, you know what? I am Adolf Hitler. Which I don't think is the best response. But it just. And. And you could see Charlie was dealing with that already. It's what. It's one of the things that really backs up your reporting. I think that really. Because Bill Ackman's coming out going, no, what are you talking about? Josh Hammer, all these guys. It was the friendliest of meetings.

B (33:38)

Yeah, right.

A (33:39)

Like, it's like, okay, well, 48 hours later or something like that. He's on with Megyn Kelly. And like, it doesn't seem like that's the vibe that he's describing, you know?

B (33:50)

Yeah, you should, you know, edit in that Clip right now, just to illustrate your point. I mean, he was complaining about stakeholders and donors giving him less space to criticize Israel than Israelis. And he seemed just visual, visibly agonized. This is, you know, what. What Charlie Kirk is dealing with is he's a Protestant coming from a very different cultural environment than a lot of the Jewish Likudniks he was dealing with. And what they deal with is, like, when they're kids, if they start to question Israel, they get smacked down so hard in their own families. I was lucky. Like my own. At least my nuclear family. They're not Zionists, and they understood why I was disgusted by the whole thing. So I never faced that. And there is just a. You know, there's a different. It's a different culture. When you grow up in, like, this hermetic, Hermetically sealed communal Jewish world, there's no space on the Israel issue unless you're, like, ultra Orthodox in Satmar. And so they projected that onto Charlie Kirk. And he was, from what I heard from people who knew him, was he was shocked by the way that they would speak to him, just by the rudeness of it. But that's the way they were spoken to about the issue. And that then they. And their entire identity focuses around this one pillar, because, you know, you're American, you're Jewish, you know, it's a secular society, you're a minority, you know, very easy to intermarry. But there's always this Israel, and that's something that you can all. You can just easily wave an Israeli flag and denounce the Palestinians, and you'll be recognized by your community as a good Jew. And if you give a lot of money, you can actually be considered a mocker, like a big guy. And so that's how they saw it. And I don't think Charlie Kirk fully understood that. So he was getting alienated by them. I mean, there's also. There were also these rumors that he was converting to Catholicism. Now, what I do know is he was attending, or what I have heard from people who even were in this Catholic Church, was that he, I believe, was in Phoenix. He was actually attending Catholic Mass, or he had attended Catholic mass. So we can kind of leave it there. But if he had converted to Catholicism, that would have been a big blow to Zionism as well, because of, you know, you're basically abandoning Christian Zionism and this concept of Israel as covenant land. The idea of the Jews as a chosen people to fulfill various dispensations in order to reach the day of Revelation. I mean it's all gone. So they're threatened by that. There's a lot of attacks on Candace Owens for mentioning that. But this seems to have been a reality that he was dealing with. And we'll never know where he would have landed and how it would have ended up. But had he landed in a different place, he would have lost a lot of money. A lot of money. And I've been hearing from a number of people I never thought I would ever meet in my life on the right who are in right wing media who were kind of moved by what I wrote because they unders, they kind of, they, it resonated with them because they were having a similar experience where they're working in right wing or Trump adjacent media organizations and everything's going fine. And then all of a sudden they start questioning Israel and their boss starts freaking out either because the boss themselves is afraid or because the boss themself is a Zionist. And then they realize there's someone in the office who just seems to only represent Israel and they don't know why they're there. And you know, one person I can point to just because this is played out publicly is Tim Pool. I'm sure you've been on his show. I've been on a show, like I found him. I was on his show like right after October 7th and he was pretty open minded about the whole thing. He let me speak my mind. I didn't really feel like I was being shut down. And he, he gets a invitation to meet with Netanyahu, I believe in the first of the four trips that Netanyahu took in recent months. And they meet at Blair House. Outside the White House there's a small group of conservative influencers and it's Chatham House rules. No one's allowed to come out of that meeting with any details. You're not allowed to say what happened. And you're meeting with someone who's like involved in the worst war crimes we have ever witnessed, who's presiding over a holocaust and you're not allowed to ask a tough question. And then Tim Pool goes back to his studio and no one's supposed to ask him about it. But I think someone did ask him about it on air and like you could see he was like a deer in the headlights and that, you know, so, so basically when you get involved in conservative media, you don't know it, but you can't really, I mean almost no one can question this because of where the money is coming from. And if you actually get involved directly like you start going to these influencer summits with Bill Ackman and then you take the trip to Israel and you kiss the wall and all that. It's like joining the Firm. The Firm. You know, the, the. The early 90s book by John Grisham where it's like you get in a law firm and if you leave, you know, you learn certain secrets and if you look, if you leave, it doesn't work out too well for you. And you know what? Charlie Kirk was in the Firm.

A (39:21)

Dude, what happens, I gotta ask you, right, because like I have somewhat famously never been to, to Israel. I did after that. I did get the invite, which I turned down. I was told this came from the top, that I was invited there. And I was like, no, I'm not go. I don't know what it is you guys do and what these you have to come to Israel trips are, but I'm not going over there. I'm not doing any of this. I've just, I've read too much about this. And I don't want to go take a picture crying in front of your wall. And I don't want to come back to my hotel and find three people are already inside it or like things have been rearranged to intimidate me, like, no, I'm not doing this. But from yours understanding or. And you've been there many times, what is it that they do to these guys on these trips? Why do they always want people to come to Israel? And what is it that happens on these trips?

B (40:13)

Well, first, this is our first time talking, so I would say I would really urge you to go, just fly in there, fly to Ben Gurion International Airport, get out and just see it as a, as a, as a tourist. And then go to Jerusalem, go to East Jerusalem, see how Palestinians live. You can just walk right in there and I can tell you what bus to take from there for $2 into Ramallah. And you'll go through the Apartheid WA. And then you'll be in occupied Palestinian territory and you can just see it all for yourself. And I really recommend everyone do that. And there are various ways to make contact with local activists and NGOs, you know, even breaking the silence, former Israeli soldiers Organization NGO will take you on a tour of occupied Hebron in the west bank and show you how they. What they had to do there as soldiers. And I think that's all you really need to see to understand apartheid is to go to H2 and Hebron, which is an entire part of a Palestinian city that has been sectioned off for some of the most fanatical genocidal settlers. And Shahada street, which goes through the middle of H2, is a Jews only street. There are actually signs that tell you where Palestinians can walk and where Jews can walk. And you can go there and see that yourself. And you can talk to the soldiers who are there on duty. And they don't actually, like. Many of them don't like the settlers and they're really bored and annoyed by the whole thing, but they're. They're just following orders to participate in this genocidal project. So I think it's like once you see that and you see apartheid for yourself, it really does give you an important authority that I think someone with your communication gifts should get. So if there's any way I can help, let me know. And everyone watching this, you should be encouraged to do that. Those who go on the APAC trips, which all freshmen members of Congress get invited on, do not have that experience. And I, I personally had a similar experience because I went on Birthright Israel when I was much younger and was just starting to explore this issue and sort of was. I would characterize my mentality at that point in my life when I was 22 years old as liberal Zionist. After returning, I shifted permanently against Zionism because I started paying closer attention to what was happening. The second Intifada began, but we were like, wined and dined. There was very little sleep. It was like an electrifying experience. There was so much group camaraderie on the Birthright trip. It's also this gigantic sex vacation. They're encouraging as much sex as possible because then you'll associate Israel with Eros, with like, eroticism. But also they want to encourage generational continuity because, you know, as Jews, we don't go and convert other people. We only multiply through procreation and marriage. And it really, like, they openly encourage you to get drunk and push you into, like, party spaces. I did a. I did a video about this called. I think it's called Zioana for the Real News Network, where I went back and covered as a journalist a Birthright mega event that Netanyahu spoke to. All the big billionaire donors were there. What's his name? Michael Steinhardt, who's one of the biggest Zionist donors in the US Told me, I said, you know, do you want them all to get married? Is that why you're doing this? And he said, not just married, they should just have it, do it tonight. Like, get him in bed tonight. It was like, sick. And then they literally push him into a nightclub setting. And, like, some of the soldiers are, like. They're like young, attractive, female and male soldiers will start dancing with them. And, like, I would see that take place the last night of my birthright trip. I was, like, exhausted, and I woke up and, like, there was a knock on my door, and a young woman had just come to the door from who I'd never met before, and she was just, like, offering herself up. And, I mean, you know, people. Maybe some people watching this will laugh at me. But I just shut the door and went back to sleep. I woke up later that night. My roommate was on the balcony looking out over the Dome of the Rock, getting a hand job. I'm like, what the hell is going on here? And, you know, the freshman members of Congress, there's like, a famous story or infamous story that I think even Politico reported, where they all got so drunk in Tiberias, at Lake Tiberius, in Tiberius, the city of Tiberius in northern Israel, that they took off their clothes, and at least one member of Congress took off his clothes. Ben Quayle, who was the son of former Vice President Dan Quail, jumped into the Sea of Galilee, and they just had this drunken, kind of like, midnight swim. That's what they're doing to them as well. And then, you know, a lot of them are, like, used car salesmen from suburban Texas who could have never gone to Israel, who have these Christian, Zionist, biblical beliefs, and they believe, and they're taken on a free trip to see the land of the Bible. Palestinians don't even exist in their minds. They see Muslims as terrorists. So Jim. Jim Jordan is one of them. And my friend Liam Cosgrove from Zero.

A (45:50)

I know Liam.

B (45:51)

Yeah, he was interviewing Jim Jordan. I just was, like, standing next to him while he was interviewing him at this. This kind of, like, weird conservative press gaggle where, like, young members of different Republican members of Congress could engage with different conservative media outlet. And I was kind of tagging along, waiting for Randy Fine to walk in. Anyway, he asked Jim Jordan about his support for Israel. And Jim Jordan says, Israel is above all other issues. It's not a political issue. It's a spiritual issue. And there's no criticism allowed. I've been there six times, and I'm looking forward to going again. And there is no questioning the alliance with Israel. And so that's how I think the Republican members of Congress see it. Then for the Democrats, it's like, it's becoming uncomfortable for them. A lot of them aren't going on all the, all the. On these trips. But you have, like, Democrats like Wesley Bell who are basically just paid tools of apac and if they refuse to go, they're out of Congress. Like, Wesley Bell was brought into Congress specifically to destroy Cori Bush because she was taking up the mantle of the Palestinian cause. And APAC spent like $12 million to get this backbencher St. Louis Alderman into Congress with super bowl style ads. None of the ads, by the way, had anything to do with Israel. They set up these stealth packs like Americans for Democracy and Fairness. And Cory Bush voted against Joe Biden's supplemental bill on the. You know, it's, it's, it's all like. And it's all that. So they did. They just have to go. And then there. It's like a humiliation ritual for them where they have to go to the Wall and they have to go to the Gaza border. And I mean, if you. Did you see the picture that the Democrats or various senators took with Netanyahu and Cory Booker, you can just see his forehead behind someone because Netanyahu owns him. Cory Booker, his whole career is sponsored by Zionist billionaires, and he had to be in that picture, but you could tell he didn't want to show his face. So that's the Democrats. But yeah, on these trips. The other thing that happens on these trips for lawmakers is they're all under surveillance. Like their hotel rooms are surveilled. Everything is being watched, and Israel's gathering tons of intelligence on the US Government through them.

A (48:14)

All right, guys, let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is Masa Chips. Did you know that all chips and fries used to be cooked in tallow up until the 1990s, when big corporations switched to cheap processed tea seed oils? Today, seed oils make up to 20% of the average American's daily calories. And recent studies have linked seed oils to metabolic health issues as well as inflammation in the body. Massa decided to do something about it. They created a tasty and delicious tortilla chip with just three ingredients, no seed oils. Their chips don't only avoid all the bad stuff, they taste great, too. Massa is crunchier, tastier, and sturdier than other chips. And snacking on Massa chips is nothing like eating regular chips. With Massa, you feel satisfied, light and energetic with no crash, bloat or gross sluggish feeling afterward. And as an added bonus, that beef tallow makes the chip more satiating, so you won't find yourself Uncontrollably binging and still feeling hungry afterward. NASA chips are beloved by tens of thousands of customers and have been endorsed by industry leading health and nutrition experts like Ben Greenfield and Gary Breca. Now, if you want to try these chips, go to Massachips.com Dave and use the promo code Dave and you'll get 25 off your first order. That's MA Chips.com Dave promo code Dave for 25% off your first order. All right, let's get back into the show. Yeah, yeah, it is something. I mean, it's, you know, part of the, the dynamic with all of this is just that now that kind of the corporate media has just been, you know, kind of destroyed in the marketplace. Like, and particularly young people are just not getting their news from corporate media outlets. It's almost, it's, it's. There's this interesting dynamic where Israel, the. Is the Israeli lobby. It was always like the third rail of American politics. But once you get into this new decentralized media and they don't have that control and you're just allowed to talk about this, and even some people could argue against it. It's just too bizarre to, for people to not see it. Like, it's so freaking weird. I mean, I remember even being struck by. I was reading your piece, or was it your piece Was someone else at the Gray Zone? It was, I think it was yours, but where you were. It was a piece about Charlie Kirk and, and the meeting in the Hamptons. And you ran a picture of the guy who you just mentioned.

B (50:46)

I'm sorry, the Xavier de Rousseau?

A (50:48)

Yes, him. And it was. And one of the, one of the girls who. It's.

B (50:53)

Yeah. Emily.

A (50:55)

Yes. Wilson, Is it Emily? Yeah. I think I debated her on Piers Morgan once, which was, you know, like, like literally, if I'm remembering this correctly, I think her big thing to me, we were like debating on Piers Morgan. I might be confusing her with someone else, but I think it was her. And she was like, well, you know, Egypt occupied Gaza and Jordan occupied the West Bank. And I don't hear you criticizing them. Why is that? And I was like, well, primarily because it ended in 1967. And she's like, okay, it's just like the most, just ridiculous guy. But anyway, but so it's a picture of the two of them, and it's them in that they post online in Bridgehampton at the time of this meeting, which people don't know, I think is about a half hour away from East Hampton. It's like another one of Those fancy schmancy towns. And they're like, at this posh hotel, they're kind of taking these glamour shots. And even just that I'm like, what is this? Like, what is this? I thought, are you in the, in the business of like, we talk about politics, like do you have deep convictions about issues of policy that you believe in because you have like a worldview and principles? Or like, or are you like an Instagram 20 year old chick taking like bikini pictures? Like what? Like, I'm just saying, like, you know, like when I go to like I got a lot of friends, you know, in, in broadly speaking, our camp in this world, if I go to Austin, Texas, like I'm. I might meet up with Scott Horton and grab a steak. But like we're gonna grab dinner and talk. We're not like, let's go take pictures of us posing outside. Like, it's just, just seems like such a bizarre thing. There's like this bizarre car cultural dynamic amongst the crazy pro Zionists influencers. It's like they're just like in a different world playing a different game than those of us who are just talking about issues that matter.

B (52:39)

Well, it's creepy. I mean their actors, they sort of were like, a lot of them were basically on Bill Ackman's casting couch. And they have no principles. They're vapid. And you know, some of them, I, I feel sorry for them because they're, they're coming from a little like a lot less privilege. And therefore this is like a big opportunity for them to move up in class by getting basically Jewish billionaire money to shill for Israel. That's where the black influencers come in. And there is a major component of this. Wealthy right wing, racist Jews buying black people to do their bidding. Bill Ackman was part of a WhatsApp group 50. I mean, it sounds like an anti Semitic conspiracy or like something, you know, a film commissioned by Joseph Goebbels. But Bill Ackman was part of a WhatsApp group of 50 Zionist billionaires who were planning basically operations after October 7th to stop student activism, specifically at Columbia University against the genocide. And one of their major action items on their agenda was paying black personalities, public figures to do what they wanted to speak against Palestine solidarity activism. And so that's why you see such a disproportionate number of black influencers at that Hampton summit, along with the attractive women that they can get there. Emily Wilson was previously critical of Israel. She said so publicly. Like there are tweets, screenshotting what she said before Bill Ackman got to her. Afterwards, she was on her way to Israel to kiss the wall. And Xavier Derusso was sent to a Gaza humanitarian foundation, or I would call them Gaza Holocaust Facilitator aid hub in Gaza, where he mocked the population for starving and claimed that Hamas was eating all the ramen. And that's why Hamas leaders were taking Ozempic. And I mean, that's what he was being paid to do. So this is the future of pro Israel media. It's just basically prostitutes being paid by Zionist billionaires. And why are they doing it? They're afraid that white and black Christian men from military communities, basically communities where the military is one of the only options to be able to pay for, like pay for college or move up in class. And so they join in very high numbers, also Latino males who voted for Trump in record numbers that they will not support Israel and therefore they will not fight Israel's wars. And so they need to keep them mobilized and motivated. You know, once they start questioning a ground war in Iran, that could be a big problem. So I mean, that's the long term agenda here. And it's all paid for. It's all bought and paid for, which alienates people and spread and it fuels anti Semitism as it really looks like some kind of anti Semitic conspiracy playing out. It's not good for the Jews. We're like 3% of the population. And you have this billionaire class that so many Jews I know despise. I hate them.

A (56:07)

Yeah.

B (56:08)

And they are basically ruling through fear, intimidation, manipulation and bribery against the wishes of a majority, increasingly a majority of the population. And like we're being used as Jews, all Jews, as a human shield for them and for Netanyahu.

A (56:31)

Yeah, 100. And I mean, you can't, it's, it's, it's amazing to watch it play out too. And that there, you know, there's not like, I hear from say, people in the Jewish community who are not exactly thrilled with my views on, on Israel or some of the stuff I've publicly said over the last few years. And they'll talk, you know, they'll talk about the threat of anti Semitism and the spike in anti Semitism over the last couple years. And I'll, I'll just say I'll be like, okay, so just even from your worldview, do you think that's a coincidence that it's spiked in the last two years? Like, might this have something to do with what Israel is doing to these poor helpless captive People like, I mean, how can you defend. These are people who don't have an army to defend them, don't have a state of their own that they've been denied by the, the Israeli government and now you're just slaughtering them. I mean, how can you. And it's almost just out of self preservation. You would think that like so many of these Jews would wake up and go, oh yeah, this is going to like, you know, it's some, some sick self fulfilling prophecy where yeah, you are actually going to create a situation where it's unsafe for, for Jewish people. And you've already created a situation that's very unsafe for the Palestinians. Like what are we doing here? I do. So let me say phrase it like this so, because I do think something like to me with the Charlie Kirk thing, there's almost like there's three areas that I kind of separate here where there's the really interesting stuff that we've been talking about, which is like what exactly was going on with Charlie Kirk? Like, where was he in the, you know, look, Charlie Kirk, like I said on my show the other day, I said at the very least he wasn't Ben Shapiro. You know, people are acting like he was just Ben Shapiro and that's it. And it's like, well, Ben Shapiro ain't hosting me and moderating a debate between me and someone else. He's not hosting Tucker and Megyn Kelly. So like clearly there was this battle he had. So that's a very interesting component, particularly because you know, the Netanyahu and they're all trying to use his death already. And so if they want to play that card, it's like, well, let's actually have a very interesting discussion about what it was like to be someone who was trying to corral young people and toe the Zionist line over this last, the last few months. Then there's also the. Which you know, know, I'm sure both of us will talk about going forward. It's like how this is going to be weaponized and used. And I'm not just talking about like the Jimmy Kimmel stuff, but I'm talking about Pam Bondi talking about how this is proof we need to fight hate speech like anti Semitism, like AKA the pro Palestinian left wingers now need to be cracked down on. So we'll see what happens with that. But then there's the other component of it which I do want to ask you about before we're out of time, which is just the actual assassination itself. Now I have been battling a Bit even with my own audience at time here, where I've been just saying for the whole week that like, a lot of people are jumping on this Israel did it theory. And I'm like, look, guys, there really just is no evidence for this and we don't want to all come off like kooks and kind of, you know, like partially just on the face of it, I don't want to promote something that's untrue. I don't want people to believe something that's not true. And then unless right after that you're like, guys, let's not discredit the entire critical of Israel movement by doing what it seems to me that a majority of the Internet is doing, which is just jumping on this thing because that's the conclusion they prefer. But then there is also another component which is like there are some legitimate questions about the, the actual event, which are like, I've had a few different things that have raised my eyebrows while reading it. So in terms of the actual assassination, do you, I mean, I know you said in your article there's no evidence to suggest Israel is behind this. What are your thoughts on that? The people who are jumping on board with that conspiracy and anything that is an oddity to you about the actual assassination?

B (60:28)

Well, yeah, I've said that in multiple interviews too, that I don't have any evidence that of an Israeli government or Israeli role and Charlie Kirk's killing. I stick to the facts. That's why I'm still here. The reason that people that this resonates, the idea that Israel played a role resonates is Netanyahu himself and Israel in general maintain power through lying, manipulation, intimidation and assassination, especially assassination. And Netanyahu rose to power after the killing of Yitzhak Rabin, his main political rival, and Leah Rabin, Rabin's wife. Life said Netanyahu incited his murder. Netanyahu marched in front of a mock coffin that said Rabin on it just days before the murder. I mean, and, and then Netanyahu's coalition partners, Ben Gavir, etc, they are like the spiritual heirs of Yigal Amir who assassinated Rabin. So this is like Netanyahu's M.O. he just tried to assassinate the entire negotiating team of Hamas inside a UFO US ally. And Israel has global assassination squads. But you know what they would have done and what they were planning to do, and you could already see Laura Loomer rolling out the campaign was to character assassinate Charlie Kirk if he continued to go off message. That's what they do. That's what they did to me and you know, if I got like an op ed in the New York Times, not that I would want to. They would try to destroy my reputation. That's what they're doing to Candace Owens. Like I don't believe they're going to send a sniper to, to take out Candace Owens, but I hope she has good security because you know, they could, they want, they maybe they want to inspire some vigilante or something, but it's not like the Mossad's MO to go inside a US ally and do this at the same time. There's a, there's another reason why nobody, why, why people are spinning out their own theories and, and I don't want to attack these people actually. Like I think, you know, people should be asking questions. We are not witnessing a credible investigation into Charlie Kurt's killing. Starting with the text messages, the exchange between this shooter Tyler Robinson and his supposed furry trans lover roommate. They read like something written by a 65 year old federal law enforcement officer.

A (62:52)

That is true.

B (62:53)

The words being used are something I've never heard 22 year old people using even as a Gen Xer. When I was 22, nobody said I'm going to retrieve the weapon from the vehicle and leave it at the drop point. Andrew Colvett yesterday declaring that there is no exit wound because Charlie Kirk had a spine of steel. That doesn't inspire confidence. He's told that by the ER doctor. And shouldn't the ER doctor be telling the media or the FBI should be telling the media that that's why there's no exit wound? Why are we learning that? Yeah, basically the spokesman for Charlie Kirk.

A (63:28)

It also was like a, it did have a very like Ghost of Kiev type feel to the story. Like I'm sure that makes some people feel nice, but could we get back to what's plausibly real and not just like these made up stories? But yes, I agree.

B (63:42)

Now we heard, we're hearing it was a World War I era, I think, I guess Mauser rifle and it. So it therefore it didn't have a serial number. Unusual the removal of the camera from behind Charlie Kirk again this isn't, this is like what people are talking about. This is what the Internet's talking about. I'm not just like trying to present to you the right. The theory of the crime, but a staffer for TPUSA removed a camera that was filming behind Charlie Kirk, which would provide a lot of, I think visual context on where the shot came from and remove the SD cards And Andrew Colvitt goes out and says he did the right thing in the middle of a crime scene to remove the SD cards. And the FBI has the footage. But he, you know, he's someone who loved Charlie Kirk. I don't know what the FBI is saying about this. There. There are so many other odd issues here. The photo of Tyler Robinson at the Dairy Queen 15 minutes after the shooting. The comments by law, federal law enforcement that Tyler Robinson took one minute on the roof to carry out this operation, which I think would be difficult to do even for a professional sniper. And the jerking of Charlie Kirk's head. I guess he's hit. He's. According to the. I guess the official version is he's hit from the front on the left side of his neck, but his head jerks that way. And so many people are formulating the theory that he was actually shot from behind to his right. And so we're at a point where anyone who's paying attention, who's paying close attention, who isn't like, invested in the tpusa maga franchise is not going to believe the official story at this point. And there have just been so many failures on the part of cash Patel and the FBI as well. So the theories are going to continue to abound and some of them will focus on Israel. And it really doesn't help to have Netanyahu go out twice, first on newsmax, which is a vehicle for Israeli influence, taking money from the Israeli foreign ministry, and then on his own personal prime minister channel, to deny killing Charlie Kirk. Like, when have you ever seen a foreign leader just on his own voluntarily deny killing a major U. S. Public figure? It's just a little weird.

A (66:11)

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B (68:50)

Can I make one other point?

A (68:51)

Sure, sure. Absolutely. Let me just quickly say that I certainly am not telling anybody to stop asking questions or to stop investigating or to stop, stop being suspicious. So that's always healthy. But yes, final point to you. And then, and then I'll let you go.

B (69:04)

Yeah. I mean, feel free to do your own research. Well, I, I'm not, I, I would accept that Tyler Robinson could have done this alone and that he could have been motivated by Charlie Kirk's anti trans commentary that this was some kind of trans shooting like there. And there could have been a component of mental illness there as well. I can accept that. But does that mean that Tyler Robinson is a leftist? If he was on some of these weird nihilistic discord channels which are themselves penetrated or at least surveilled by federal law enforcement, was he a leftist or was He a Democrat or progressive? If they could show that he was at no Kings rallies, holding up signs like calling Trump a pedophile or something, then I'd be like, all right, well, there it is. And like, you know, the no Kings rallies went too far. You know, run with it. And. But the narrative is already set. The narrative is to, and this is what the Trump administration has been trying to do all along is keep the United States in a perpetual state of emergency in order to expand the power of the executive and the surveillance state and Palantir to surveil us, control us, and consolidate the power of his very narrow sectarian movement. And this is the perfect opportunity for them to do it. And we have to be so we have to be very aware of what's going on and question not just the official story, but who Tyler Robinson really was. Because when Charlie Crick was shot at Utah Valley University, he was being protested by a group of progressive students. One was holding up a sign that said Free Palestine. Another one had like a pro LGBTQ sign. Another had a sign, you know, maybe denouncing Charlie Crook's comments on race or something. And they were interviewed by a pro Trump videographer. I just watched this. I'll tweet the video out later. And he was challenging them. And they said, and they said that we don't hate anyone here. You know, we, we still love them, we just disagree with them and think they're being misled. Then he starts challenging them on Palestine and Hamas. They condemned political violence immediately. They, they said, we just don't think, like, we just are like, we want to debate this. That's really like the progressive left, as I understand it. They're not really going to get on a roof and with a sniper rifle and settle things that way. They're waiting for the next midterm election. Yeah, and that's who is being implicated as the killer is here. We're talking about like 50% of the country. That's who Trump is implicated. They want this civil war. They want to pit us against each other. Because what does Palantir CEO Alex Karp describe as his business model? It's preventing social unrest from affecting or disrupting the lives of the 1% who sponsors him. That's what he openly says. So let's, let's be level headed here. Let's not get carried away and let's be strategic. The most threatening thing right now is not, is unity against those forces of surveillance, of apartheid, of genocide, of authoritarian control of the United States and the profiting from surveillance that Palantir represents. So I think that's, that's another reason why it's important to question not just the official story, but the direction that this assassination is being taken. And it's also why it's so threat. Why someone like Candace Owens is so threatening to the right is because she's making it more difficult for them to just simply pin this on the left conveniently and then take away our civil liberties.

A (73:12)

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. And that's always, I mean, that's always their, their, their go to, I mean.

B (73:19)

The Democrats would have do it too if like someone had, you know, shot Biden. They would have shut down Elon's Twitter X, you know.

A (73:26)

Yeah, yeah, but, and, and the truth is that, you know, every day Sean Hannity says the far left, Nancy Pelosi or whatever, and then that's supposed to mean 50% of the country is the left and the other 50% is the right, as if they're all the same thing, as if Hillary Clinton and your liberal mom and some 20 year old gender studies major are all the same thing or something. When really the dynamic is always that Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell are the same thing and that actually they are your enemy and your fellow countrymen are not. And they always want to make it so that you think your fellow countrymen are your enemy so that you don't focus on the fact that it's actually them. And it's the, like you said, the constant state of war, perpetual war, perpetual emergency and perpetual support for Israel, which all seem to somewhat be interrelated.

B (74:15)

Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's a strategy of tension that is taking hold right now. And I think, you know, we're in the double digits in this country of people who just are done with the duopoly, the corporate duopoly and are willing to put aside the culture war to actually have real change and basically unite against the 0.1% in the war state. But we don't have a vehicle and we're basically not allowed to, to run for in either party. So we're just kind of out here in our podcast world.

A (74:48)

Yeah, no, I think that's right. But at the very least, you know, we have, we've been given more of a level playing field than ever. And part of the dynamic that we were talking about there with Charlie Kirk and that young people is that us. And I say this very broadly, but we've just been kicking their ass in the general debate. And I mean that's just the bottom line. Like, we just keep winning and they keep losing, and support keeps drip because they're defending the indefensible. And once you. It's just like there's a reason why they rely on censorship and propaganda, because their ideas can't really stand up. But listen, we.

B (75:23)

We won in the marketplace of ideas. We won. So they're going to call it all hate speech, right?

A (75:28)

Yeah.

B (75:28)

And the only. And then leaving the only avenue, political violence. So, I mean, we just want to debate.

A (75:34)

Yes, 100%. Max. Thank you so much. Please, if you guys weren't already familiar with his work, make sure to go check out Max Blumenthal. Anything specific that you want to promote. You said you're going to have a new piece on this out soon.

B (75:48)

Well, if you. If you follow Dave Smith, then you probably have some overlap with me, and you'll hear about it soon. So subscribe to us on, you know, subscribe to us on YouTube or substack and you'll. You'll find out about it.

A (76:03)

All right, Max Blumenthal, thank you very much for coming on. Thank you for everything you do, and I hope we get to do this again sometime soon.

B (76:09)

Thanks a lot. For sure. Great meeting you.

A (76:11)

You, too. All right, thanks for listening, everybody. Catch you next time.

B (76:15)

Peace.