Podcast Co-Host (5:47)

I say a lot that money is about math and feelings. And when we only think about the math part, you know, we might solve a problem, but we only solve half the problem. You know, people don't just want money for its own sake. They want money so that they can live their good life.

CJ Grimes (6:03)

We can't fix the world alone.

Jeff Walker (6:05)

But collaborating isn't easy and systems are allergic to change. So how do we do it without losing our damn minds?

Podcast Co-Host (6:13)

That is what we're here to find out.

Jeff Walker (6:17)

I'm Jeff Walker.

Podcast Co-Host (6:18)

I'm English Sall welcome to System Catalysts, the podcast that cracks the code for making the world a better place.

Jeff Walker (6:31)

There's a saying in politics that sums up why people vote the way they it's the economy, stupid. And it looks like this last presidential.

CJ Grimes (6:38)

Election was no exception.

Jeff Walker (6:40)

Right now, many Americans feel like they don't make enough money to live comfortably. It's this feeling that prompted our guest today, Carrie Jo Grimes, or as I like to call her, cj, to create Work Money, a non profit organization that provides tools and resources to help millions of Americans save money and earn more. And when I say millions, I mean specifically 8.1 million so far. That's how many members work money has gained in just a few years. Despite its size, though, Work Money feels very much like a tight knit community where the team is always listening and keeping the conversation going with its members. So I wanted to have CJ on to talk about, among other things, how they foster such a trusting environment with such a large group of people. So if you've ever struggled to connect with the people you're serving, I'm sure you'll learn a lot from this episode.

CJ Grimes (7:35)

Hi C.J.

Podcast Co-Host (7:36)

Hi Jeff. How are you?

CJ Grimes (7:38)

Good. Thanks for joining us. It'll be fun Conversation. Yeah, it was funny. I was doing some listening to some of the things you've been doing and talking about. And my family is from Southern Illinois. They hung out in Evansville.

Podcast Co-Host (7:53)

Jeff, you know my Family's from Evansville.

CJ Grimes (7:55)

I'm saying this connection.

Podcast Co-Host (7:57)

Oh, wow. First of all, nobody knows where Evansville, Indiana is. And it's a remarkably large town for nobody to know where it is. You know, it's like right at that apex of where Indiana meets Kentucky and you can see right across the river to Kentucky. You know, I grew up in a very working class, middle class family and my grandparents are hugely inspirational for me. My, my mom's parents, Charlie and Rachel Ashton, and neither of them graduated from the eighth grade. And my grandpa Charlie worked at the Whirlpool factory making refrigerators just down the way from the Sears in Roba, where my grandma, Grandma Rachel, she ran the women's department. And they really elbow greased their way to like a, like a good life. You know, they had two kids and they bought a house and one of their kids went to college. I mean, it was, it was really kind of the way it's supposed to be. You know, you work hard and you, you get a good life out of it. And my grandpa, with his refrigerator factory job saved up enough money to still retire. And he, and in retirement he bought himself a black Cadillac El Dorado with a red racing stripe. And every Sunday my grandma and grandpa would go for a drive after church and they would always have the same argument because my grandpa would roll the windows down because he wanted people to see that he was driving a Cadillac because it was a big deal for him. And my grand, my grandma would go, Charlie, roll the windows up because it was messing up her hair. And I just grew up believing that if you put the time in, if you work so, so hard, you can get that good life. My Grandpa didn't have 10 Cadillacs. I mean, he wasn't rich. And I just thought when I worked really hard in my life, I would be able to get whatever my Cadillac was, you know, whatever that is for me as an adult. And what I've seen happen over the last 30 years, it's gotten harder and harder for folks to have that moment. And I can't imagine a refrigerator factory worker saving up enough money over a 35, 40 year career to buy themselves a Cadillac.

CJ Grimes (9:55)

Well, and you and I are connected because some part of my family grew up in Southern Illinois and on Sunday afternoons after church got in their Cadillac, my grandfather's Cadillac, and drove around to look at houses and sites. It's, it's so, you know, you're, I agree with you that that dream, you know, is it still here and is it possible? And so you've Been working to try to, you know, make it possible. Right?

Podcast Co-Host (10:17)

Yeah.

CJ Grimes (10:18)

So how do you kind of, how do you think of your, your model of change and kind of what you built with work money and the, in this, what, six and a half million members you have now? Right?

Podcast Co-Host (10:26)

Well, it was, and it's funny because we need to update our website. We've grown to 8.1 million. We just keep growing so fast that we, we, I know we can't even, we can't keep the, the website updated. I think I spent a couple decades as a union organizer where I got to work with working and middle class folks figuring out how they use their collective strength and numbers to improve their lives through union contracts. And I'm a proud pro union person, but I don't do that work anymore because 6% of the private sector is unionized and 11%, 10% overall working folks. And you take public sector into account, which is great. I think unions are vital and important for a healthy democracy, healthy economy, a healthy society, like a big, big union person. And I wanted to build something that could give both the benefit of a union, meaning like you get discounts and you make more money and you have access to more resources, a better life materially. And we can use, we, the working middle classes can use our collective strength and numbers to help frame and shape an economy that works for us. You know, we can use our strength to be a market and we can bargain for cheaper goods. We can make clear to either all political parties what we think is really important for working middle class folks. And so work Money is the organization that kind of grew out of that idea that we can build a place where anybody can go, that they can trust to get real resources to help them with their money, both individually and collectively. I didn't know that we were going to build what became kind of a media company. I didn't know that I was asking for our members phone numbers and people were joining so that I could call them because that's all as a union organizer. That's how I knew to talk to people. You know, I talked to them on the phone. It was my whole job for 20 years. And it turned out that people were like, well, just text me. I was like, okay. And so work money for a long time, like the text and email and the communications, like the value that we actually provide people is information. We deliver information that they can trust from a source they can trust. We delivered over text and email and phones and now social media. And I listened to people and that became like the, the way that we work, it became the lifeblood of our organization.

CJ Grimes (12:39)

Well, you are clearly a movement builder and focusing when you're trying to do system change on what is the problem you're trying to address. And it sounds like you took the hook of the financial need, the angst that comes up with people trying to make it by and trying to build enough to carry their families along, right?

Podcast Co-Host (13:01)

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, 150 million American adults, which is over half of adults in this country, can't afford a thousand dollar emergency. And you know, there's a lot of reasons for that. It may be you may get a bum deal, you know, you may get dealt a bad hand of cards. It's still on us to figure out how we, how we play them. No one's going to show up and save us. We got to figure out how to get out of this hole ourselves. And it's Also not that 150 million individual people are screwed up. You know, like, there's clearly something wrong with the system overall. Wages aren't keeping up with costs. Things cost too much. And there are ways that we can use our strength as a large organization to build an economy that works for us too.

Jeff Walker (13:48)

Go on the Work Money website and you'll find plenty of great tools and resources to help you with your finances, like a starter budget calculator, an app that saves you gas money, and a student loan consolidator. As great as these are, they're only the first step to really helping people in the long term.

Podcast Co-Host (14:04)

I say a lot that money is about math and feelings. And when we only think about the math part, you know, we might solve a problem, but we only solve half the problem. You know, people don't just want money for its own sake. They want money so that they can live their good life. They can spend time with their family, they can have the bandwidth to. I don't know. My good life is something simple. It's like I want to be able to watch the Cubs and the Bears and the Trailblazers. You know, I would like to have enough time and money to go to the gym. You sometimes have one or the other, but generally not both. I'd love to buy my teenage daughter one of the million things she says she desperately needs and not feel like I'm robbing Peter to pay Paul. You know, I'd love to take my husband out to eat seafood because when he cooks it in the house, it's disgusting and I hate the smell. And so like, you know, it's like that's, it's like, that's the, it's. I don't even mean by good life. I'm not even trying to say I want like five yachts and 10, you know, fancy cars. And I think that when I think about financial security, it's really to me, for me about my relationships, you know, my relationship with myself, my relationship with my kid and my husband. And I think that that's ultimately what we want people to have.

CJ Grimes (15:12)

Well, and there's so many people that are lonely when they find others that are suffering the same questions through the same questions or issues.

Podcast Co-Host (15:20)

That's right.

CJ Grimes (15:20)

You know, it gives them more strength and light around it. Yeah, it sounds like once the trust you start being able to talk about that kind of stuff, which is very angst driven and things that people don't like to talk about necessarily as much.

Podcast Co-Host (15:35)

Yeah, that's right.

CJ Grimes (15:35)

And then they'll open up to other things, right?

Podcast Co-Host (15:37)

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean we are 100% always, always, always on our members side. They know that they can count on us, that we have no other angle, we have no other reason for being other than to raise people's incomes and lower their costs. And I think it's, it's an unusual thing for there to be an organization or a person that you know is always, always on your side. And it's because we are them, you.

CJ Grimes (16:04)

Know what I mean?

Podcast Co-Host (16:04)

Like we're not some other outside force. We are an organization of working middle class people who have come together to take responsibility and make it better for all of us.

CJ Grimes (16:14)

And it's your actions that prove that.

Podcast Co-Host (16:16)

Yeah, that's exactly right. And I text my members, you know, at least, you know, usually once a week or so we call, we have a whole phone bank program where we call our members constantly, just checking in, seeing how people are doing, asking lots of questions, listening. We do a lot of listening at work. Money. And that might be a thing that kind of sets us apart too, is we really spend time listening. And it's incredible. Like our members are incredible. They have, you know, over a quarter of them have, have texted, called, emailed us, you know, over 10 times. Which means we have a lot of information and understanding about what people want and what they would find valuable and useful.

CJ Grimes (16:54)

You have it with them? Do they have it amongst themselves relationship?

Podcast Co-Host (16:58)

That's a great question. Yeah. In smaller groups we have a lot of member leaders. We bring people together around specific things. So for example, we have a group of members that's been working to raise the overtime threshold. And so they get to know each other really well and they cross politics, they cross age, they cross gender, they cross all the rural, urban. And then we found this really interesting thing happening where as we have more social media content, there's a lot of stuff that happens in the comments on some of our YouTube videos and in our Instagram and Facebook reels where people interact together about how they solve problems or you know, like around how to shop and save at the store or you know, like we have a lot of members who are interested in things like dinner for four on 20 bucks. You know, how to people share lots of ideas back and forth. And we've done some real life events. We've done. We'll do a swing through a state and we'll have like an event or a tabling event and people come and sort of chat with each other. In this next year, I expect we're going to be doing a lot more work in people's physical communities because it's time, you know, we got, we got pretty big and so where we'd be moving into, into a couple of places and working with our members on the ground. I'm really excited for what that will look and feel like. I think that's the next chapter for workman. When I think about work money in its most mature, I imagine work money being physically present in, you know, thousands of communities on the ground, in states all across the country.

Jeff Walker (18:28)

Despite having 8 million members across the country, work money operates almost like a small business with regular phone calls and in person events. Each individual member feels seen and heard and understood, which further strengthens and grows the work money community. It's a virtuous cycle that I wish more organizations would employ.

CJ Grimes (18:49)

Some people when they work on social change. They had to figure out the geographic level to work on. And you clearly pick on the United States obviously. But many people then start going, well, do I go down to the state, do I go down to the city, do I go down to rural versus city?

Jeff Walker (19:04)

And then there's different levers of change.

CJ Grimes (19:06)

And so kind of where you focus on, I think is interesting. Could you have a work money New York and a work money Arkansas and have them work together?

Podcast Co-Host (19:16)

Yeah, we do. We were born. Work money was born out of the pandemic. I was a union organizer for a couple of decades and I left the union maybe two and a half years before that. And I was kind of knocking around working on getting jobs here and there. And then, you know, everyone's money kind of got turned inside out. When we shut down and I started fielding lots of questions from folks I'd spent a lot of. I mean I spent two decades working with people about, you know, how to improve their financial lives, like through union organizing. And so I got together with some friends from that world and we built this website and that kind of took off, you know. And so we were born digitally because there was no other option. You know, there's no in person anything at Work Money for two years practically. And so we grew nationally immediately because we were just online. And now we're so big that we have enough members in a bunch of states that we're taking pretty seriously. What does it mean to be Work money New York, we're going to Pennsylvania, Work money Arkansas. Obviously there's geographic differences, right? Like if you want to talk about changing like bargaining for cheaper stuff in Arkansas, there's different companies there sometimes than there are in New York. Sometimes there's the same companies. There's a, you know, sometimes you can bargain like with companies at the national level.

Jeff Walker (20:30)

Walmart's in Arkansas, Walmart's everywhere.

Podcast Co-Host (20:33)

Walmart, that's a great example. Walmart really is, you know, like that's an excellent example. And then there's also like, you can do things at the city level and the state level. But what we find to be the most helpful is not even thinking geographically or even demographically. It's thinking about people who have like a similar set of problems. So this kind of person's financial security issue is that they haven't saved enough to retire and they're between like, you know, 40 and 60 in that age range and they're trying to catch up but their income is low. So like what are the tools, resources, information we can help that person with or this person who's in the sandwich generation. Like I was for a while, you know, with kid and a parent, both of whom need care. And I was a single mom and like there's like that's a different set of problems or someone who is, you know, in the thick of it as a parent, you know, I have a 17 year old daughter who's probably going off to college. I know she's going to go off to college in the fall, in a year. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's also like what is going on with college tuition? Oh my gosh. So there, that's like a whole separate, very intense problem that many of us go through for four years or more. So we think a lot about that. Like what are the, what are the kitchen table problems and Solutions that our members have. And we think more about groups in that way historically than we do about like where do you live?

CJ Grimes (21:59)

So it's not treating a member as a single solitary image, but you know, an evolving personality that changes their needs.

Podcast Co-Host (22:07)

Yeah.

CJ Grimes (22:08)

And so in your hundred year goal, you will live their entire life with them.

Podcast Co-Host (22:12)

Yeah.

CJ Grimes (22:12)

So what they need when they're 22 and then married and 27 and having their first kid and then on to 35 and retiring is going to change.

Podcast Co-Host (22:21)

Yeah. I have this vision of, you know, we're there for you when you get your first job and we're there for you when you transition into like real full retirement. You know that like we help people understand and navigate.

Jeff Walker (22:34)

This all sounds wonderful. But of course work money doesn't run on goodwill. It relies on funders to operate. So how do you get funders to care about increasing wages and lowering costs.

CJ Grimes (22:45)

Of working class Americans?

Podcast Co-Host (22:46)

I think it's better for my funders who are, you know, who are very wealthy, who are in the, you know, 1 or 0.1%, like that's who, that's who largely funds work monies work. I think they really understand that they are better off when everyday Americans are better off, that it doesn't work even for them in the long run if most of the country is hollowed out and can't afford to buy the products and services their companies make or use the products and services that their companies make. So I think that there's, I don't want to describe them all as self interested. I mean, of course it does feel good to them. I hope it should. To invest in an organization that's really helping people achieve financial security. I think they get it. It's not, it's not just altruism. I think people are properly self interested. America does not work if only a small number of people are reaping the economic benefits from our economy. Like it doesn't work in the long run. We won't be here, I would argue in the long run.

CJ Grimes (23:39)

Well, and they must do. I mean clearly if you're looking to change the system, you look at your return on investment. And so we as a donor, you know, we come in and say, hey, long term, not just personally, but you know, ROI to the world. Yeah, it's got to be positive.

Podcast Co-Host (23:54)

Yeah.

CJ Grimes (23:54)

You know, having people be able to be self supportive, being able to be connected into a larger system, have more confidence, you know.

Podcast Co-Host (24:00)

Right. Yeah, that's exactly right.

CJ Grimes (24:02)

So learning those levers and kind of thinking about it is, is, you know, Data as well. And you have a 15 million you know, member goal over you know, a reasonable time frame. But that's a huge number.

Podcast Co-Host (24:14)

Yeah.

CJ Grimes (24:14)

And so creating you know a group of people who have that kind of power. If I'm a system catalyst, you know, if I can pull together 50 million, holy moly. That's sea changing. You know you can do things, you know, how would you look at measuring it so that you're talking to, you know, you're a catalyst looking at saying hey this is, this is how the world's going to change in five to 10 years because of what we're doing.

Podcast Co-Host (24:34)

Oh that's a great question. I don't get to think this way often enough. I think we would be with that kind of power I will know that we have demonstrated the impact we want to have. When we're seeing wages go up for working and middle class folks, we're seeing debt go down for working and middle class folks, we're seeing home ownership go up for working to middle class folks, we're seeing. I don't know how to measure this one. So this just give me a second to kind of say it. A little sloppy but there's a, a big question mark in a lot of folks my members minds about like the value of going to a four year college and paying all that money even with grants and still out of reach for a lot of people. There's a lot of like I end up with all this debt and my salary doesn't quite make sense for a long time. Like how many people are in bondage to their student loans. I'll just put a, I just want to you know, throw a little ore in the water here and say we are desperately on. We don't have enough electricians and plumbers and you know, skilled carpenters. Like we are missing a lot of important trades work that we need. I mean the infrastructure in this country. Woof. The amount of factories we need to build and roads we have to fix and bridge we have to build and boy wouldn't you love some high speed rail and who's going to do all that. I think we really need to think more broadly about education. And then the last thing I'll say about how I'll know is that my little hobby horse I ride right now, precarity people will feel like they are financially stable. People will believe that what I believed when I was a kid that I would have my version of my grandpa's, you know like low end Cadillac that I could, I could get the American dream That I would be able to retire, a life that I could afford, where I could spend time with my family and my kid and my beloveds and, you know, be happy.

CJ Grimes (26:31)

Part of what system catalysts tend to do is look at influencer maps, system maps, partner maps. And so I'm curious who your partners could be. And maybe there's an uncovered group of them, I think. Whereas I think you're really hitting it where it says our country's going to change. Our country's going to go to more plants that are going to be based here. You know, there's going to be, you know, there still is a big demand for a lot of high skilled jobs like plumbers, like electricians, like others who understand what AI is and how to kind of connects together.

Podcast Co-Host (27:03)

That's right.

CJ Grimes (27:04)

And if you can take your middle class in Bukalar teams and find others.

Jeff Walker (27:08)

Who care about that problem.

CJ Grimes (27:10)

Yeah, that issue, they'll be your funders, they're going to be your supporters and they're going to be your partners because it's going to be more and more an issue and we need to help support them. And where else do you look other than looking at a union and there's issues around that and you're trying to saying, hey, I'm taking it out of that, right?

Podcast Co-Host (27:29)

Yeah. This is a conceptually difficult question to answer, meaning like, who should we all be partnering with? But I find that it gets really simple about when you, when you tackle a specific problem, hey, we don't have enough skilled electrical engineers to, you know, wire the stuff we need to wire to build all these factories and all of the that are, they're coming home in the next decade or so. And so when we ask the question like that, it's amazing how business and labor and government can come together without flinching at each other, regardless of politics, regardless of ideology. And so when I think about that, I think about, okay, so work money is going to keep our eyes on what are the practical things that we can partner with folks on and things like that. So for example, we have a lot of members in Pennsylvania. So we're going to be looking at what are the opportunities in Pennsylvania to give our members a chance to upskill into, you know, work we know is coming. So we'll be looking for actual material, like partnerships that are material that make sense or, or partnerships in California and Arizona where there's a desperate need for healthcare workers. And so do we have members who want to go into the, there are training programs that we can partner with to get Our members in the door and like learning those skills.

CJ Grimes (28:47)

See, that's an opportunity. That's a big deal. You know, we. We are coming to the end, and there's a lot of interesting ideas that you've been bringing out that people can leverage off of. But as you're giving advice to people who want to change the world for. For the better purpose, and you created something in 2020 that's amazing and growing dramatically and setting up, you know, really an audience and a group of members that are just, you know, you. You consider yourself, and in them, you see yourself in them.

Podcast Co-Host (29:14)

Yeah.

CJ Grimes (29:15)

What advice do you give? What would you say is the parting kind of gift to our listeners, you know, for them to think about that based on your experience?

Podcast Co-Host (29:25)

Two things. I'll try to say them both quickly. You know, the first thing I would say is that it takes just as much time and effort to do big things as it does to do small things. The skills are often the same, and somebody told me that once, and it really changed my perspective. It's like, oh, I could do this in a city or I could do this in a country. And the mechanics for me were largely the same. Takes more money, obviously, often to do things on a bigger field. So I would. I would really encourage folks, if you want to think systemically, you probably have all the tools you need to do it. And whatever work you've done, you can take that and just, like, stretch it out and put it over a larger frame. And I bet you. I bet you can think it through. And the second thing that I would say is, boy, do I listen. Listening and listening and listening to our members, to partners, and to myself. Like, I listened to people, and that became, like, the. The way that we work. It became the lifeblood of our organization. And so those are my two. Those are my two pieces.

CJ Grimes (30:29)

That's great advice. And, you know, I can take back listening. You can take back focusing on people you're trying to have an impact with, partnering with them, building that vulnerability and trust as you're trying to create this massive movement that can change the world. And people can take that and build their own based on what they think is an important lever to push. So lots to learn here, and I appreciate you taking the time to help us transfer some of that knowledge.

Podcast Co-Host (30:59)

Thank you. It's always so fun to talk to you. And I just will say, I love this podcast. It's such a delight to have a space where people think about systems change. It's necessary, and it helps me feel less alone. So thank you for your work.

Jeff Walker (31:29)

That's it for today's show. Please don't forget to subscribe to System Catalyst so you don't miss out on the new episodes. Also, do us a huge favor by rating our podcast and leaving us a review. Thank you so much for joining us and we'll catch you all in the next episode. Before we go, I'd like to thank our producers at Human Group Media. We'd also like to thank our incredible network of partners who are supporting our mission, the Skoll foundation, the Aspen Institute's Aspen Global Leaders Leadership Network, Echoing Green, DRK Foundation, Maverick Collective Version Unite, Charlize Theron, Africa Outreach, Project Boligo Philanthropy, Synergos for Global Nexus and New Profit. If you're interested in becoming a System Catalyst and would like to learn more about our Partners, please visit systemcatalyst.comViews and opinions expressed during the podcast are those of the individuals expressing them and do not necessarily reflect those of System Catalysts or Human Group Media.

Podcast Host (32:33)

And that's a wrap. What an incredible conversations from our friends at System Catalysts, CJ Grimes Insights on financial well being, economic security and the power of listening to create meaningful change remind us that real impact happens when we meet people where they are. Her leadership over work money is a testament to how intentional action and community driven solutions can transform lives and I hope it left you as inspired as it did me. As we wrap up, take a moment to reflect. What does financial security mean to you? Not just in numbers, but in emotions and freedom? How can we use our collective strength to build systems that truly support people, not just economies? And how do you take action today, whether in your own life or in your community, to create a more secure, purpose driven future? If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a five star rating and review. Your support helps fuel the Passion Struck mission and ensures we continue bringing you the thought provoking conversations like this one. And if you know someone who could benefit from CJ's insights, share this episode with them. It could be the spark they need. For all the resources we discussed today, including more from System Catalysts and Work Money, visit the show notes@passionstruck.com want to dive deeper into intentional living? Then subscribe to my Live intentionally newsletter@passionstruck.com where I share exclusive insights, tools, challenges and strategies every week to help you live with greater clarity and purpose. You can catch video versions of all our episodes and more on our YouTube channels. Head over to John R. Miles and Passion struck clips on YouTube hit. Subscribe and join our growing community of impact driven thinkers. And if today's discussion sparked ideas for your organization or team, let's bring these insights to life. I speak with companies, leadership teams and conferences about creating intentional change. Visit johnrmiles.com speaking to learn more On Tuesday, I'm sitting down with best selling author Nir Il, the expert on habit formation, focus and mastering distractions. If you've ever felt like your attention is constantly being hijacked, Nir will show you how to take back control. Become truly indistractable. You won't want to miss it, so make sure you're subscribed and ready for another transformative conversation.

Nir Eyal (34:43)

When I applied to college, the most important thing when you looked at a university was how many books were in their library. Who cares? It's completely pointless. Nobody cares how many books you have in the library because everybody has Google on their phone. And now we have ChatGPT and we have all these great products on our devices that allow us to have all the facts and figures we could possibly want at our fingertips. So information is no longer scarce. We're drowning in information. What's scarce today is the ability to focus your attention long enough on that information to turn it into wisdom.

Podcast Host (35:18)

And remember, the fee for the show is simple. If you found value today, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Because knowledge alone doesn't create change. Action does. Until next time, live life. Passion struck.

Podcast Co-Host (35:42)

The Corpano with cheese has many great things. Maple flavored griddle cakes isn't one of them.

CJ Grimes (35:52)

McDonald's breakfast comes first.