How to Feel Loved: The 5 Mindsets That Change Everything | Sonja Lyubomirsky & Harry Reis – EP 730

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Passion Struck with John R. Miles
Episode: How to Feel Loved: The 5 Mindsets That Change Everything | Sonja Lyubomirsky & Harry Reis – EP 730
Date: February 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this profound episode, host John R. Miles welcomes psychologists Sonja Lyubomirsky and Harry Reis—two leading voices in the science of happiness and love—to discuss their new book, How to Feel Loved: The 5 Mindsets That Get You More of What Matters Most. Together, they explore why people often feel unloved even in close relationships, the essential role of responsiveness, and actionable mindsets that restore presence and belonging. The conversation delves deeply into the nuances of mattering, the dangers of "performing" for connection, and practical strategies for feeling and giving love in everyday life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The ‘Mattering Gap’ and Feeling Loved

• Concept: Many people are technically loved, yet don’t feel loved—a disconnect John calls "the mattering gap" (01:36).
• Lyubomirsky: Relationship problems (and even loneliness) often have roots in “not feeling loved,” regardless of how much affection one receives in theory.

  “No matter what she does, he's not feeling loved and vice versa... Not feeling loved is the root of so many relationship problems.” —Sonja Lyubomirsky (09:14)

2. Responsiveness as Forensic Proof

• Reis: Responsiveness is when someone is present, attentive, and changes because of you. This is how we know we matter, not simply that we’re useful or reliable (08:15):

  “You begin to feel that they understand you and they appreciate you and that you can really feel seen when the other person is being responsive to you.”

• Seesaw Model: Mutual significance is built when people “lift each other up”—you reveal yourself, feel seen, and are then motivated to reciprocate (11:19, 13:11).

3. Going First & The Virtuous Cycle

• Initiating Connection: The person who wants to feel loved should begin by making the other feel loved, with genuine curiosity and presence (15:30):

  “If you want to feel loved… the first step is to make the other person feel loved.” —Sonja Lyubomirsky

• On Control: You can’t change the other person, but you can change your approach (15:30).

4. Why Presence and Curiosity Are Rare

• The Modern Condition: Technology, polarization, and transactional communication have eroded meaningful presence (16:39):

  “As our conversations become more like text exchanges, they become much less of a real connection.” —Harry Reis (17:45)

• Social Media: Shallow maintenance talk replaces presence; people feel like “invisible appliances” (18:41, 27:01):

  “When you are that invisible water heater, you don’t feel seen… you don’t get to experience the idea of being loved.” —Harry Reis (27:27)

5. Strenuous Pursuit of Connection

• Intentional Effort: Love and happiness require intentional, ongoing effort—not something effortless or static (19:51):

  “Happiness… relationships… all these things take effort and energy and intention… curiosity and listening is a gift”—Sonja Lyubomirsky

6. Repairing the Broken Mattering Circuit

• Vulnerability: Sharing raw, honest truths, even for “the strong one,” is vital for being truly known—and thus truly loved (21:31):

  “The cost that goes with [hiding] is you simply can’t feel known.” —Harry Reis

• Reciprocal, Appropriate Disclosure: Vulnerability is a gradual process, not immediate over-sharing (24:03).

7. The Toll of Hiding and Secrets

• Impact: Keeping secrets or being “safe” can protect in the short term, but drains happiness and leaves people feeling unseen (31:07):

  “People walking around with these walls… I worry for people who are too private because I think it’s going to be hard for them to ever really feel loved.” —Sonja Lyubomirsky

8. Self-Determination Theory and Real Relationships

• Reis: True belonging and happiness are found when our real, autonomous self is recognized and accepted—not just the performative or extrinsically rewarded self (32:35, 34:38):

  “When people feel like their autonomy is being respected and valued by other people, that's when people really start to feel happy.” — Harry Reis

9. Chasing Extrinsic Goals vs. Core Connection

• Never Enough: Pursuing money/status/looks may earn admiration but hollow love (35:06):

  “People will pursue...being famous, making a lot of money...but it's not the real self that's coming through.” —Harry Reis (00:54)

• Cash Value of Mattering: Feeling you matter to someone is “priceless,” more valuable than any external achievement (36:42).

10. Cultural & Societal Influences

• Society’s Message: The U.S. emphasizes extrinsic achievement over relationships; cultures that prize connection report higher happiness (38:08, 39:27).
• AI and Future of Connection: The group discusses whether future education will focus less on content (which can be delivered by AI) and more on community and connection (39:59, 40:48).

11. From Utility to Safe Haven

• Relationship Shift: Feeling loved provides a “safe haven” to explore and flourish. Absence of love feels dire—it's an evolutionary signal to repair bonds (41:42).

12. Changing Conversations, Not People

• Central Takeaway: To feel more loved, “change your approach to conversations”—with curiosity, warmth, and acceptance (44:44):

  “You don’t have to change yourself. ...You just have to change the conversations that you’re having.” —Sonja Lyubomirsky

13. Attributional Ambiguity

• Being Loved for Who You Are: Feedback rooted in extrinsic qualities (beauty, status) doesn’t satisfy the need to feel truly seen (46:29):

  “It doesn’t produce the warm glow ...that knowing that other people appreciate your intrinsic qualities.” —Harry Reis

14. Small Talk vs. Deep Questions

• Epley’s Research: People shy away from asking deep questions, fearing it’s intrusive—but most wish others would ask.
• Balance: Small talk has its place, but depth is necessary for lasting connection (49:20):

  “When all you do is small talk, it’s superficial, it’s not much of a relationship.” —Harry Reis (50:17)

15. Open Heart Mindset—Dalai Lama Insights

• Recounting their Meeting: Both guests describe being profoundly moved by the Dalai Lama’s teachings on universal love (51:05):

  “He said, I’m your mother and you’re my mother. We’re all each other’s mothers. How can we ever hurt each other…?” —Sonja Lyubomirsky (52:30)

• Actionable Wisdom: Love is a decision; act with warmth and nurturing intentions, even toward difficult people (53:30, 54:03).

16. One Concrete Step

• Final Practical Advice (55:44):

  “Have a conversation with another person, at least 15 minutes—make it deep.” —Sonja Lyubomirsky
  “When you’re talking… really listen… help them explore... think about what they’re telling you and what it tells you about them as a person.” —Harry Reis

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lyubomirsky:

  “Not feeling loved is the root of so many relationship problems... and also at the root of loneliness or lack of belonging.” (09:14)

• Reis:

  “Responsiveness is the idea that when you’re talking, the other person isn’t just passively taking it in—you begin to feel that they understand you and appreciate you.” (08:15)

• Lyubomirsky:

  “If you want to feel loved, the first step is to make the other person feel loved.” (13:11)

• Reis:

  “When the parts of yourself that feel vulnerable are hidden, you begin to worry about what would happen if those parts came out…” (28:37)

• Dalai Lama Quote (via Lyubomirsky):

  “He said, I’m your mother and you’re my mother. We’re all each other’s mothers. How can we ever hurt each other when we’re each other’s mothers?” (52:30)

• Final Takeaway:

  “Feeling loved is a lived experience. It forms when a person sees that their presence changes the relationship.” —John Miles (56:49)

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Important Timestamps for Key Segments

• Origins of the book, merging happiness & love science — 06:04–08:01
• Responsiveness & the Mattering Gap, Seesaw Model — 08:01–13:11
• Going first, real presence in conversation — 13:11–15:30
• Technology’s Impact on Connection — 16:39–18:45
• Striving vs. receiving love; the invisible water heater — 19:24–27:27
• Costs of hiding, secrets, and emotional walls — 31:07–32:03
• Self-Determination Theory & autonomy in relationships — 32:35–35:44
• On extrinsic goals and real worth — [00:54], 36:42
• AI, education, and the future of connection — 39:27–41:11
• From safe haven to creative courage — 41:11–43:21
• Changing conversations as relational repair — 44:44–45:33
• Attributional ambiguity and real love — 46:29–48:30
• Small talk versus real questions — 49:20–50:17
• Dalai Lama, open heart mindset, Michelangelo effect — 51:05–55:03
• Action step: 15-min deep conversation — 55:44–56:07

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Practical Takeaways

1. Feeling loved is built through tiny, reciprocal acts of curiosity, listening, and vulnerability—not grand gestures or extrinsic achievements.
2. Change your relationship by changing your conversations: move beyond small talk, ask deeper questions, and truly listen.
3. To feel loved, make the other person feel loved—go first, and reciprocity will often follow.
4. Vulnerability and honest sharing, at the right pace, are essential to being truly known and feeling truly loved.
5. If relationships persistently lack responsiveness and repair, it’s sometimes healthiest to walk away.

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Closing Reflection

This episode reminds us: Love is not just being there; it’s being present, curious, responsive, and willing to be known. The lived experience of mattering arises when signals—our truths, needs, and fears—actually land and are responded to with care. The five mindsets are not formulas, but real moment-by-moment choices that restore the felt sense: you matter.

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Recommended for anyone seeking to deepen their connections and bridge the “mattering gap” in any relationship—romantic, familial, or friendship.

Transcript

[John Miles]

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[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

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[Harry Reis]

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[John Miles]

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[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

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[John Miles]

Next on Passion Struck, people will pursue.

[Harry Reis]

The goals of being famous, of making a lot of money, of being the most beautiful person on the planet, that sort of thing. When you pursue those extrinsic goals and other people admire you for that, it isn't experienced as the real self. You can never have enough money because there's always somebody who makes more money. There's a wonderful study that showed that something like two thirds of the millionaires in America feel like they don't make enough money because there's always someone more beautiful, there's always someone more powerful, there's always someone with higher status. There's always someone who's won more awards than you. And so when you're pursuing those more and more, it's not the real self that's coming through.

[John Miles]

Welcome to Passion Struck. I'm your host, John Miles. This is the show where we explore the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live like it matters. Each week I sit down with change makers, creators, scientists and everyday heroes to decode the human experience and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning, heal what hurts, and pursue the fullest expression of who we're capable of becoming. Whether you're designing your future, developing as a leader, or seeking deeper alignment in your life, this show is your invitation to grow with purpose and act with intention. Because the secret to a life of deep purpose, connection and impact is choosing to live like you matter. Hey friends, and welcome Back to episode 730 of Passion Struck. Over the last several episodes in the youe Matter series, we've been examining a quiet but consequential truth. People can be surrounded by others, embedded in relationships and still feel invisible With Barry Schwartz, we looked at how modern systems of endless choice and rational calculation exhaust our agency, turning decisions into optimization problems instead of meaningful acts of judgment. Last week with Rebecca Goldstein, we examined the mattering instinct and explored how the mattering map helps us see where we stand in relationship to it. And then last Thursday with Daniel Coyle, we discovered how flourishing emerges when people are treated as necessary contributors rather than replaceable parts. Today we turn to the relational core of that question. We can be loved and still not feel loved. And when love fails to register in the nervous system, something deeper than happiness erodes the felt sense that our presence has weight. My guests today are Sonja Lyubomirsky and Harry Reiss, two of the most influential scientists shaping how we understand happiness, love, and human connection. Sonia is Distinguished professor of Psychology at the University of California, Riverside, and one of the world's leading researchers on well being, the science of happiness. Harry is a Dean's professor at the University of Rochester and a pioneer of relationship science whose research on responsiveness transformed how psychologists understand intimacy, trust, and emotional safety. Their work reveals what I often describe as the mattering gap, the space where affection exists in theory but significance fails to land in practice, where people become valued as reliable, helpful or agreeable while their inner signals, needs, fears, truths quietly disappear. As we move toward the February 24th launch of my upcoming children's book, E Matter Luma, I've been reflecting on how early this gap begins. Children intuit whether their signals land long before they can explain it. Adults often spend years paying the cost of relationships where their full self never quite arrives. In today's episode, we explore why feeling love is an active relational experience how responsiveness serves as the forensic proof that a person truly matters. We go into the relationship seesaw and how mutual significance is built moment by moment why polishing ourselves for acceptance often produces invisibility instead of connection and how five conversational mindsets restore presence, agency, and belonging. This episode is about restoring signal integrity and in our closest relationships and reclaiming the experience of mattering where it counts most. Let's continue the youe Matter series with Sonja Lyubomirski and Harry Reiss. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating a life that matters. Now let that journey begin. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name your Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at Progressive Dot Com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Pricing coverage match limited by state law not available in all states. I am so excited today to welcome Harry Reese and Sonia Lyubomirski to Passion Struck. Welcome. It's such an honor to have you both.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Pleasure to be here.

[Harry Reis]

Great to be here.

[John Miles]

I think we have to start this out where we have the preeminent expert in the world on relationships and the preeminent expert in the world on happiness. How did the two of you come together to decide to write this brand new book, how to Feel Loved? The five mindsets that get you more of what matters most. I'll turn it over to you, Sonia. Oh, sure.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

I feel like we have this act that we take turns answering questions. It was really at conferences that Harry and I met. We've known each other for actually quite a few years. I think we actually met 21 years ago. Like we had a really long conversation. I still remember that. I don't know if you remember in dc, but we started talking about. We realized actually that happiness researchers and love researchers don't talk to each other as much as they should. And so about seven years ago, we started talking about writing a book actually called how to Feel Loved. We had the title before we had.

[Harry Reis]

I think, the content I would add to that. Just that we were talking about that. And at first we didn't have the idea that coming together would produce this unique synthesis of ideas. And then at some point it was like a light bulb went up off over our heads where I said, my God, we could put this together and do something really interesting and creative. And that's when we started really sitting down and getting serious about writing.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Everything clicked. The way that I like to tell a story is I have been doing research on happiness interventions for. Since 1998, actually for 27 years or something. Well, at that time it would be for 20 years. And at some point it clicked that almost all of the interventions that work to make us happier, right? Like doing acts of kindness or writing gratitude letters or being more social work because they make us feel more connected to and loved by each other. So really like it's hitting me. And then Harry, I think, had a different epiphany that was really parallel that the key to happiness was feeling loved.

[John Miles]

Harry, a lot of your research focuses on responsiveness. In layman's terms, is responsiveness simply the proof that when I speak or act, it actually changes the weather of the relationship or is it something different?

[Harry Reis]

Absolutely, you nailed it. Responsiveness is the idea that when you're talking the other person isn't just sitting there passively taking it in, but that the other person is interested and that they're beginning to get what you're all about. So you begin to feel that they understand you and they appreciate you and that you can really feel seen when the other person is being responsive to you.

[John Miles]

And, Sonia, I know, as you just mentioned, you've spent these decades now studying happiness. And it's hard for me to say decades, because I've been doing my stuff for decades now, too. But I think when I read the book, what it really is about is, and I want to use this word, quote unquote, feeling loved. For many, I think there's a painful gap where they know they're loved in theory, but they don't feel it in practice. Do you think this is the primary happiness leak that we face in modern relationships?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Yeah, I don't know if it's a prime. It might very well be. I often refer to the show called Couples Therapy, which is this great job, if you've ever seen it, where you see real couples in New York and they're fighting and they're fighting about whatever. They're fighting. You said this to me, or you never do this for me. And then you realize that at the root of their problems is not feeling loved. It's like, no matter what she does, he's not feeling loved and vice versa. And so I do think that not feeling loved is the root of so many relationship problems. And also, you could argue at the root of loneliness or, like, lack of belonging. You can think of a moment where you don't feel lonely. It's very much overlapping with not feeling loved or not feeling loved enough or as much as you'd like to in your relationships. So, yeah, it's a huge issue. Huge problem, I think.

[John Miles]

Yes. Yeah. Harry, did you want to add to that at all?

[Harry Reis]

Well, I would just say to that it's important to realize that what we mean by love is not the sort of passionate, hot feelings that you feel when you fall madly in love with somebody. Rather, we're talking about the sense of being cared for and warmth and comfort. And when you feel loved, you feel like another person really gets you, that they're concerned with your welfare, that they want you to be happy, and as a result, you feel like you belong. In the book, we make a major point about the connection between feeling loved and feeling like you belong with the other person, that they accept you and that they get you and that you matter and that you matter to them.

[John Miles]

So I'm going to turn this back to you and I'll initially send it back to you, Harry. But in my research, and I have just turned in a manuscript for a new book that I wrote on mattering, I have seen that many people suffer from what I'm calling the mattering gap, the space where they are loved in theory, but feel invisible in practice. And I think in the book you have a tremendous metaphor, the seesaw model.

[Harry Reis]

Right.

[John Miles]

So how does your seesaw model provide the forensic proof needed to close that gap?

[Harry Reis]

Well, the idea behind the seesaw is that there's this reciprocal dyadic exchange that goes on where you can begin the process by lifting the other person up. So what does that actually do? The metaphor we have is that there are parts of ourselves that are hidden, or in metaphorical terms, underwater. When you're responsive to another person, you lift them out of the water so they can be seen and appreciated. That in turn kicks off the process of them doing the same to you. And so you all of a sudden become known and seen. And it's a process. It's a dynamic process of interaction that goes back and forth. We realize we matter when the other person starts doing the same for us. You don't necessarily get the feeling of mattering if you're only doing for the other person. But they don't reciprocate. It's the reciprocity that really makes a difference. I'm sure reciprocity is one of the most powerful rules of social life that we have. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. And the same thing applies to this idea of helping the other person feel loved. We help the other person feel loved. In turn, they help us feel loved.

[John Miles]

I think what you brought up. Yeah, Harry. Is really important because when I was studying this, reciprocity kept coming back up. It's something that's prevalent in all world religions and some of the most long standing myths and rules that kind of govern society. It's amazing we don't talk about it more. And.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Yeah.

[John Miles]

And the research suggests that kind of feeling loved is a virtuous cycle. So my question for this is how does going first on the seesaw help a person move from what I think of being a resource to being a source in a relationship?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Well, first I wanted to mention that reciprocity is highly evolutionarily adaptive. Right. And we probably wouldn't have survived and thrived. Right. If we didn't reciprocate when people helped us. Yeah. This is for context, but before I answer the question, I just Wanted to reiterate that really you can think of as the key to feeling loved or feeling like you matter and is being known to the other person, right? If you really are not known, if you're hiding yourself, you'll always wonder, would the person still love me if they knew me? Right? So the seesaw really is about when we talk about lifting someone up, we're lifting them so that we can know them better, right? So they're showing not just the positive sides, like the tips of their self, but more of their full self. So that reciprocal exchange about. Of being known and. But the first step, and at first it seems a little bit counterintuitive, but it's actually not really that. If you want to feel loved, if you want to feel like you matter, the first step is to make the other person feel loved, is to make the other person feel like they matter. And so if you're on the seesaw, the first step really is showing genuine curiosity in the other person in their inner life, in their inner world, in their thoughts and feelings, the details of their day, right? We all want people to know and care about sort of the details of our days, what's going on in our heads or our bodies, and so showing genuine curiosity. And the idea is that, John, if I'm really curious about you, and amazingly, it's actually pretty rare when people show genuine, authentic curiosity, right? They're so excited to hear your story. Maybe as a podcaster you have, you're good at this, but most people are not. And so I'm showing genuine curiosity in you, and that helps lift you up. That helps. It makes you feel like. Like motivated, but also just trusting and safe to reveal a little bit part of your story. And then when you do start revealing that part of the story, that I'm really listening. I'm not just waiting for my turn to speak, I'm really listening. I'm present. I'm quieting my inner voice, and I'm asking questions. And another thing that we don't do often enough is ask each other deep questions about the other person, what's going on inside of them, because that's what makes us feel loved and like we matter. Like the other person really cares even about the details of our day or the details of our. How we feel about something this morning.

[Harry Reis]

And just to add to what Sonia said, one of the reasons for going first is that you can't control the other person. You can't make the other person do something, but you can change your approach to the conversation. So going first is something you can control so you can start the cycle. And so that's the way to kick it off. Rather than sitting back and waiting for the other person to approach you, which might never happen.

[John Miles]

I did a. An interview with Alison Wood Brooks you probably both know, and we were discussing her book talk, and we got into this really deep conversation about what you guys are talking about here. We were talking about how when we are truly present in a conversation and we're really listening to that person, we're actually holding a mirror back to ourselves. Because when you start seeing a person through their experiences, you also see yourself in it. And I think in modern life, that is something that seems to be degrading more and more in the connections that we're having. Do you guys have a theory for why this seems to be happening at what seems to be a faster pace?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Well, I can certainly speak to a little bit. If you're talking about kind of the polarization of our society and sort of the divides between people, I think, yeah, one of the. I don't know if it's a symptom or a cause that we're not showing curiosity in the other person. We're not really listening to the other person. So if we're talking to someone that we really, hugely disagree with, and they have these beliefs that we think are crazy and they're supporting people, someone who we think is crazy to support, we just stop listening. Right. It's like we shut it off, or we yell at them, or we just walk away. I was on a podcast where the podcaster was saying that she has these family members that have beliefs that are totally different from mine. She's like, I love them. And so I just don't talk to them ever about politics, which is a solution. What we talk about in our book about feeling love completely applies. Applies to these situations, like showing genuine curiosity. Why do you believe what you do? Maybe there's a history behind that. And then really listening instead of shutting down and also sharing. A study just came out that if we share vulnerably with someone very different from us and they share with us, that will actually help bridge that divide.

[John Miles]

Right.

[Harry Reis]

And maybe a good metaphor for this is to think about the difference between a real conversation and an exchange of text messages. So I speak, you speak, I speak, you speak. And that doesn't promote connection. It gets you information. And if you need that information, okay, fine, good. But as our conversations become more like that, they become much less like what you described, John. It becomes much less of a real Connection and seeing myself in your response, seeing what you grab, seeing what you respond to positively and what maybe doesn't produce such a positive response. When you're really having chemistry with another person, the flow back and forth is a very natural, spontaneous thing. You don't even realize that time is passing. And as we become more like texters, we take away from that essence of connection.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Same with social media too, of course.

[Harry Reis]

That and social media of course also. Right?

[John Miles]

Yeah. You went where I was going to ask you, I was going to ask you when a relationship feels like maintenance rather than presence, what's happening underneath that attachment circuit? And you just answered it.

[Harry Reis]

No one's saying that maintenance isn't important. Maintenance has a role in a relationship. My wife and I exchange text messages several times a day about something that's going on or can you pick up a dinner on your way home kind of thing. So those things are important also. But if those are the essence of it, the relationship is going to feel hollow. Whereas those things are complementing real interaction is what matters.

[John Miles]

So Sonia, your research found that happiness is a strenuous pursuit. And I had Shige Ueshi on the show last year where we talked a lot about his theory on psychologically rich life involving kind of complexity and perspective shifting experiences, which I know you're familiar with. How does strenuous effort of truly feeling loved add to the psychological richness of a person's life?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Well, first of all, I love Shige's theory of psychological richness. I actually think it's my favorite kind of new theory in well being science. I don't usually use the word strenuous. It's not necessarily inaccurate. Is that in when it comes to happiness, when it comes to relationships and love, that some people just think, oh, it just come naturally, right? So happiness is something, you either have it or you don't. Or if you're not happy in a relationship, if your sex life isn't great, then there's something wrong. Like as though naturally it should happen. But actually we know better, right? That all of these things take effort and energy and intention, deliberate action. It doesn't have to be hard, like it doesn't have to be painful. Sometimes it doesn't even have to involve a lot of time when you think about like a brief interaction with your romantic partner or your best friend or your colleague, where you really are paying attention to something that they said and you ask them about it and then. Or you smile and it's like a gift. By the way, curiosity and listening is a Gift. Right. It's an act of kindness. And yes, it does take some effort. I wouldn't call it strenuous, necessarily, but it does take effort. And. But it's a good kind of effort. And then the more you do it, I think that it becomes more of a habit or a ritual and so that it actually becomes, quote, easier to engage in.

[John Miles]

I want to go from where we were to going through some of the repairs that you all bring up in the book, which I call like, repairing the broken mattering circuit. And one of these, Harry, is this idea of sharing. For someone who's listening, who spent years being the strong one or the reliable one in a relationship, why is sharing a raw kind of unedited truth so vital for their own happiness?

[Harry Reis]

I love that question. The reason why not sharing is such a burden is that it ultimately leads you to not feel. No. If you want to be known by another person, and indeed we feel that all of us want to be known by another person, you have to show them not just the public parts of your personality and not just the things you're proud of, not just the things that everybody knows about you, but also the deeper, more inner truths, the what makes you human, the shortcomings, the worries that you have, the things that you're concerned about. Those are the things we don't normally tell people. Those are things we tend to keep private. And we often don't reveal those things because they make us vulnerable. And indeed, they do make us vulnerable. So we're reluctant to share that information. Maybe we think it's going to make us look silly or inept, but the cost that goes with that is that you simply can't feel known. The irony is that when people reveal these weaknesses, these inner selves, usually other people respond positively. We all have these kind of shortcomings and weaknesses. And when you open up to another person, that gives them the freedom to realize, wow, you put on your pants one leg at a time also, and that allows you, in turn, to open up. And that's what allows for a real bond to take place.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

It's really evident sometimes in a first meeting, whether it's a professional colleague or a first date or something like that, where we mostly are trying to impress the other person. And it's very human. It's very normal to do that. We're getting to know each other right here in this podcast. I want you, John, to think that I'm smart and that I'm interesting and I'm funny and I'm kind. It's very Human. And so I might succeed in impressing you, but I'm not necessarily going to forge a connection. Right. What forges a connection is actually breaking that fourth wall a little bit and being a little bit more vulnerable. Right. I have a memory of a professional zoom I had where I was trying to pitch a talk that I was going to give in in Europe, and. And the guy. And it was. It went well. It was this really good meeting. And I was talking to him, actually about our new book, and then he suddenly shared something. He said he had just had a baby with his girlfriend, and it was really hard. And it really changed the tenor of that whole conversation. It suddenly brought us to a new level of, like, understanding and bonding. Right. I felt bonded with him, and I think I actually, I got the job, I think, in part because we reached this new level. So. Yeah, we all have those experiences. Experiences. Right, Harry?

[Harry Reis]

Absolutely. And just to put a little caveat on that, nobody's suggesting that in the first five minutes when you meet someone that you should start trauma dumping all these terrible things that happen to you and their child. It's a process that's gradual that you build up. The metaphor that researchers have used for a long time is the idea of peeling an onion, that you start at the superficial levels and gradually you release each level and you work your way into the central core. So it's a gradual process that should take place. And also that should be reciprocal.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

And it's really hard. You have to really read the other person. You have to read the room, have it. You have to have emotional intelligence. And I often say, I wish every, like high school and college had courses in emotional intelligence. Although it's hard to learn and teach, it just takes time. Like, how do you gauge the other person's curiosity so that you know how much to reveal or whether to reveal anything at all? And obviously, you could test the waters. So you might say, instead of saying, oh, I'm fine, you say, oh, I'm struggling a little bit today. I'm having a rough day. See how they respond. If they don't seem interested, maybe you don't continue. Yeah. Like practicing that. That sharing at the right pace, I think is really important.

[Harry Reis]

Yes.

[John Miles]

Before we continue, I want to pause for a moment. One of the insights running through this conversation is that feeling loved is learned through experience. It forms when a person sees that their signal changes the emotional weather of a relationship. That truth begins early. My upcoming children's book, you, matter Luma, launching February 24, is designed to help children feel that truth in their bodies before they learn to earn belonging through pleasing, performing or disappearing. Umatter Luma is now available for pre order at Barnes and Noble. Links will be in the show Notes and Inside the Ignited Life Each episode in the you Matter series includes guided reflection prompts and a workbook to help you examine where your relationships circulate care and where they quietly extract it. You can find those [e-mail] now a quick break for our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. You're listening to Passion Struck on the Passion Struck Network. Now let's return to the conversation. I was in a long term relationship for many years and when I was in it, I had this feeling after a while that I was like a fixed utility, meaning if we want to use like a home, I was kind of like the water heater. I was this invisible appliance that was working but it didn't need much care and I just felt I wasn't appreciated after a while. And I don't know why this thought occurred to me, but it tied into this listening to learn mindset that you all suggest in the book as a way to move from that invisible appliance type of feel in the basement if you're the person experiencing it, to a more fulfilling existence. Am I thinking about this correct?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Yeah, absolutely. I was thinking we all want to be seen and heard and valued and so when you're being taken for granted, Right. You're really not being seen. If your partner showed some curiosity about or if you shared what you were actually feeling, or he or she showed curiosity and really listened to you. Right. And then you were really known and what was happening to you, that would really. Yeah, I think that would have really transformed the relationship.

[Harry Reis]

I would agree that when you're the. I like the metaphor of the invisible water heater of a family, when you are that invisible water heater, you don't feel seen. You don't know. You don't know if you're appreciated. Everyone would miss you. If there's no hot water all of a sudden, you know, that calls for major remediation. But while the water's there, people act like you're unimportant and that makes you feel like you don't matter. But it also makes you feel like you're not being seen and you don't get to experience the idea of being loved.

[John Miles]

Yeah. And in that relationship I found that after a while when I was trying to express myself, the other person just kept just not caring. And so after a While I became less and less vulnerable with them because it just didn't seem to make any sense to share. And one of the big ideas from your book is the importance of being vulnerable. And sharing the real self, I think allows love to land where it's most important. What does your research show about this?

[Harry Reis]

Well, our research shows that when the parts of yourself that feel vulnerable are hidden, you begin to worry about what would happen if those parts came out, if I am not letting you know what I think my weaknesses are, and I would begin to start worrying, well, what's going to happen when that comes out? Are you going to reject me when you found out this terrible thing that I did when I was 18 years old? Are you going to reject me because I'm actually no good at certain things? And so you begin to worry about acceptance simply because you don't know how the other person is going to respond to that information as it will surely come out. There's the interesting story that was in the news recently about the man who had committed several murders. And he never talked to his family about that, never told his wife about it, but he left her a note for her to read after he died in which he confessed all these things. Now the interesting thing, so obviously he wanted to tell her these things, but at the same time he was afraid of how she would respond while he was still there if she had known these things. So the need to be known is a very powerful one. But sometimes it just keeps us hidden within ourselves and that has consequences.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

And you wonder if he ever really felt loved by his wife, if he truly ever felt loved, because he probably always wondered, well, she loves me now, but she doesn't love me unconditionally because she doesn't know about this past behavior. I also want to add a caveat you had mentioned with your relationship not feeling appreciated even when you did reveal how you felt. And once in a while that is going to happen. And once in a while you're going to try everything that we talk about in the book. You show curiosity, you listen, you share, you. You show warmth and acceptance and the other person is just not going to respond. We've had some early readers of the book actually break up with their partners, realizing the person is, is not sharing and they're not curious and it, and whatever they've tried is not working. Once in a while, maybe you need to accept that or pause or maybe even walk away. So that will happen.

[John Miles]

Sonia, maybe a follow on to that would be in that relationship. But there's a Hidden cost. When we stay safe in a relationship, how does that deplete our overall capacity for happiness?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll just say one thing. One of our friends and colleagues, Mike Slepien, studies secrets. And he wrote a great book called the Secret Life of Secrets.

[John Miles]

You might know about it and, you know, interviewed him. It was great.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

I figured. Yeah, I figured you interviewed him. But anyway. But he talks about the toll that keeping secrets takes on our mental health, but also our physical health even. And so like when we're not revealing all of ourselves. And a secret could be defined, I think, very broad, something that we just don't want people to know about. And so, yeah, that's one way that I could cost our happiness. But a lot of people, we all have walls around us, right? We all have walls around us. We. They're there to protect us. When you realize that, you really see it everywhere. People walking around with these walls and so they're functional, but a lot of people just feel they keep things so close to the vest, they really are so private, they don't reveal much at all. And I actually worry for people who are too private because I think it's going to be hard for them to ever really feel loved, as we argue in our book.

[Harry Reis]

All right.

[John Miles]

Yeah, Harry, I spoke to Richard Ryan about 18 months ago and we were talking about self determination theory, but we were really talking about the equality of the three components of it. Woody, could you explain self determination theory maybe through the lens of your book, and specifically what happens when our autonomy comes to cross with the relatedness aspect of it?

[Harry Reis]

That's such a wonderful question, and it's one. Rich Ryan and I go way back, so it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. I don't think they're incompatible at all. And I would say that when they do come into conflict with each other, it's really a barrier to relatedness rather than choose one or the other. The notion of autonomy is of course, the idea that we want to do behaviors that feel authentic and real and personally meaningful to us. But the idea of relatedness is that we want to be connected to other people, but it's that real self that we want to be connected. So I think of relatedness in its pure form as being what we want our autonomy to do. That is what we want our autonomy to be the stimulus for when we're not behaving autonomously. So for example, one of the non autonomous things people do is pursue extrinsic goals so people will Pursue the goals of being famous, of making a lot of money, of being the most beautiful person on the planet, that sort of thing. When you pursue those extrinsic goals and other people admire you for that, it isn't experienced as the real self. You can never have enough money because there's always somebody who makes more money. There's a wonderful study that showed that something like two thirds of the millionaires in America feel like they don't make enough money because there's always someone more beautiful, there's always someone more powerful, there's always someone with higher status, there's always someone who's won more awards than you. And so when you're pursuing those more and more, it's not the real self that's coming through. And Rich and I have actually done research together that shows that when people feel like their autonomy is being respected and valued by other people, that's when people really start to feel happy and really truly satisfied in a genuine way.

[John Miles]

Yeah, I just want to add something to that. I used to be a senior executive at a well known technology company and our CEO at the time, I think his Forbes had his net worth at about 19 billion. And I would hear him complain sometimes that it was going down and then he bought another technology company and restored it back to 30 billion. And it just makes me wonder sometimes with what you were just saying, how that plays out. Like when is enough?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Sometimes one of the problems of pursuing extrinsic goals is that we're never quite satisfied. We'll keep moving the finish line. Like I have this sort of image of the finish line, just, it just keeps moving farther. And you can argue that's evolutionarily adaptive. Right. For humans to never quite be satisfied when they reach a certain goal, like whether it's 19 billion or writing a book or getting married. And yet if we were, if we were always just satisfied with our goals, like we reach the top of the mountain and then we just stay there, we would never make progress, we wouldn't make advances, we would stay stagnate. Right. So it's adaptive for us to keep wanting more, but there's a cost to our happiness.

[Harry Reis]

Right. And to riff on a popular metaphor, nobody on their deathbed ever said, I should have made more money.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

I don't agree with that actually, because not having much money can actually really harm your happiness. But yeah, yeah, but it's. Well, another thing, this is a little bit of a, what's the word of a little bit of a paradox is that research shows that if you Pursue money or you pursue extrinsic goals, you're not happy, right. So that's associated with unhappiness. But actually having achieved those things is associated with happiness. So richer people are happier, more beautiful people are happier. People who have are more popular are happier. But pursuing those things is associated with unhappiness. But having them is good.

[John Miles]

Since we're talking about money, I'll bring William James into this for a second. What is. And I'll let you both answer this. What is the cash value of a relationship where both people feel they truly matter inside it?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Priceless.

[Harry Reis]

Yeah, I would totally agree.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Yeah.

[John Miles]

Yet why, if that is the case, is it absent in so many. That's what really drives me crazy. When you think of how many divorces and breakups and everything else that, that there are when the opposite side of this has such high, high value for both people.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Well, I'll start. Or Harry, do you want to start?

[Harry Reis]

No, go ahead, Go ahead.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Well, there's a lot of reasons for that. Sometimes we choose poorly, Right. We don't choose the right person for us. Sometimes it's attachment style that can get in the way. And that we use this metaphor of a. Like a cup of love. Let's. This is our cup of love. And the other person, we're in a relationship, maybe they're a good person. We chose well and they're pouring love into the cup. But if you're anxiously attached, just like you have a leak and the love is leaking out, if you're avoidant, dismissive, it's as though there's like a very small opening in the top and so it's not really getting in. That's one reason that people don't feel loved or they're doing the wrong things to feel more love. They're. They think that to feel more love, they need to make themselves more lovable and pursue those extrinsic goals. Right. If I were more successful, how are more beautiful? If I had more money, right. I'd feel more loved. If I hid my shortcomings, kept those secrets, I would feel more loved. It turns out that those are the not. The not the right way to pursue feeling loved actually might actually backfire. So those are some of the reasons why we have the epidemic of not feeling loved enough.

[Harry Reis]

And I would totally endorse everything Sonia just said. And I would add to it the idea that our culture is teaching us to value all those extrinsic things and not teaching us to value our relationships. There are parts of the world where people are taught from an early age to value their relationships to a much greater extent. And interestingly enough, those are the parts of the world where, when you look at world happiness surveys, people are actually happier. And instead we do things to. I don't know if we. I would say that we discourage it, but we certainly don't encourage it. And as a result, people simply don't pay enough time and attention to it. One of the examples I like to use of this is the homeschooling movement. Now, homeschooling is wonderful, and I understand that people have good reasons why they may do it. But what do you lose when you do homeschooling? You lose the socialization with peers who you didn't initially know, and learning to get along with groups and work with groups of people that have different beliefs and different opinions of you. That's a major part of what school is all about and a major part of preparing people to. To become adults in our society.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

You know, it's really interesting. I was just at this dinner last night with a number of people who are really deep in the AI world, and you guys probably have heard this idea, this thought that college education is going to really change. That's one of the predictions. Is going to change from being about learning and information, which is something that you could get with the good AI chatbot, but about community and connection. Right. You go to college basically to make those connections, to network, to learn how to work in teams. We still have that, but that would be really the focus. So it's not interesting. That's the opposite homeschoolers are doing.

[John Miles]

I mean, it's. When I think about that, I remember less from my undergraduate and more when I was pursuing my mba, how important those group studies were. In fact, so many of the projects we did throughout the MBA was working in small teams and having huge debates and things like that. That really, for me, strengthened the whole academic experience because you were challenging each other and learning and growing. And I feel when you use AI repeatedly, I feel like I don't challenge myself as much. And I love to write. And so one of the things I try to do outside of AI is to write, because I think the more you rely on something to do it, you lose, as we were talking about earlier, some of that curiosity and creativity. So, yes, I know.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

It's like putting your brain, like in a wheelchair. And let's say we all use the wheelchair even though we didn't need it. Our muscles are going to atrophy. And that's basically what we're doing is we're putting our brain in a wheelchair anyway, you know, a whole different topic of conversation, but it is relevant. By the way, we have a whole section about AI chatbots and how they might influence how people feel loved. And so something we've been thinking about.

[John Miles]

So that relationship I was in that I mentioned where I felt like I was the utility in my marriage, now it's the complete opposite. I feel very much loved all the time and supported. And for me it, that feeling of being loved has created a safety net or a safe haven that I feel like now it gives me the strength to go out and live a more adventurous, complex life. Is that what you all have found as well?

[Harry Reis]

Totally. And safe haven is a well chosen phrase. Sonia mentioned attachment theory before. And in attachment theory, one of the primary functions of a secure base is that it allows you to go out and create, explore the world. If you're unsure about how loved you are, you've got to always be watching your behavior, making sure I hope I don't screw up, I don't do something to offend other people. If you feel genuinely loved for who you are as a person, you can be confident that, yeah, if I screw up, I might have to apologize, but it'll be okay. And it allows you to go out to be creative, to be experimental, to in attachment theory terms, to explore the environment is what it allows you to do.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

I agree 100% with what Harry just said. I just want to add that a feeling of not feeling loved. And by the way we talk about them in terms of moments, right? So it's not like it's a trait or a characteristic or part of your identity. So sometimes we have moments, we don't feel loved or we feel lonely. It's a really important evolutionary signal, right, that something is off, that we need to repair a bond, that we are lacking something in our relationships which back then in our ancestral times could have meant death. Right? So actually that's why it's so aversive to be to feel lonely, not to feel loved, because it almost feels like a death, because long and sort of our genes quote, remember how dangerous it could be. So it's an adaptive signal, it's a healthy signal for us to do, go do something about it. And so our book is actually about what people can really do, like starting today, to feel more loved in their relationships.

[John Miles]

If you're a person and they're in a relationship where it's not where they want it to be, there's this idea of doing remaking conversations like, how much does a single deep perspective shift in conversation help to move a relationship?

[Harry Reis]

That's a tricky question to answer because I would say sometimes it moves a relationship enormously and sometimes it doesn't move a relationship at all. Those kinds of conversations at the right moment, on the right topic with the right person can literally be life defining and life creating for that matter. On the other hand, we often have those conversations and they feel great when you're having them. And later on it's just another nice conversation that I had. So it's going to vary tremendously. And I think there's no good way to know that in advance. I think you have to have those conversations and you have to enjoy them in the moment. The spontaneity of enjoying these kinds of interactions in the moment is really important. If you're thinking about them more in terms of ultimate goals, that may actually be something that keeps you from getting involved deeply in the conversation. So that might actually interfere with it long term. It's the involvement in the other person that's really important.

[John Miles]

Right.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

The responsiveness. If I might just reframe that question a little bit. And this is really a take home message of our book. It's about conversations. You can think about a relationship as a series of conversations, right? Even we're not talking. And one of the take home messages of our book is that if you want to feel more loved, you don't have to change yourself. It's always good to work on yourself, but it's not about changing yourself. You don't have to change the other person. You have to just change the conversations that you're having. And so when you change your approach to conversations, when you're again showing curiosity, listening, sharing, asking questions, showing warmth, showing acceptance of people's flaws and weaknesses, those are ways that can really move the relationship forward and make you feel more loved. And all the other conversations could be fun and fulfilling and enjoyable. Not. Not don't necessarily move it forward, Right.

[John Miles]

So Harry, I want to go back to extrinsic goals for a second. In the book you guys write, one reason that striving for extrinsic goals doesn't always lead to feeling loved is that people want to be loved for who they are rather than what they have. And Sonia, one of the things that you brought up earlier was, and I remember going on a first date one time years ago where it became like a competition that we were having, like when we were sharing and it almost got to the point for me that she was being so competitive that it became like intimidation and it was like pushing me away. So you have. You go into the book discussing attributional ambiguity, and I was hoping maybe you could talk about this because it's probably something that outside of social psychologists don't really understand.

[Harry Reis]

Well, attributional ambiguity is the idea of not knowing why somebody likes you or appreciates you. The classic study of this area is a study that was done by our colleague Brenda Major, who at the time was at the University of Buffalo. And she did this wonderful little study where attractive women would hand in an essay to an instructor and then they would get feedback on the essay and the instructor would tell them, this is a great essay. This is really wonderful. And the interesting thing that happened is that if the instructor could see them, the women didn't feel that the feedback was genuine. But if the instructor couldn't see them, then they felt that the feedback was genuine. So the message, of course, is that what attractive women are concluding is that the positive feedback they're getting is because they're good looking. It's very nice to be good looking. It's very nice to know that people think you're good looking, but it's not as nice as knowing that people think you're smart. And I want to know. I want people to believe that I'm smart, that I'm a good person, that I'm a kind person, that I'm a virtuous person. All these kind of intrinsic characteristics. It's perfectly fine to want other people to like you for your extrinsic characteristics. No one's saying that's a bad thing, but it doesn't produce the warm glow of being valued, of being loved. That knowing that other people appreciate your.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Intrinsic qualities, right, for being seen, for who you are. And again, we've mentioned this before, right. To feel loved, you really need to be known. And so when you believe that the other person sees who you are and there's not really a true self like some of those layers of the onion, and they still love you and they appreciate you and they value you and they understand you. When you feel understood, that is incredibly powerful.

[Harry Reis]

Right?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Yeah.

[John Miles]

I've heard you guys both talk about this whole idea of small talk in previous episodes that I've listened to where you've talked independently. And in the book, one of my favorite quotes was an Albert Einstein 1. The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existence. When I think about love, love has many different forms. There's the deep, intimate type of love, but there's also love for your friends, etc. And I find that as I've gotten older, more and more of the deeper types of conversations I'm having with friends seems to be changing. And a lot more of it tends to be around small talk rather than asking questions to simplify it.

[Harry Reis]

Right.

[John Miles]

Why does this whole practice of asking questions matter so much?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Well, I'm going to start with a beautiful set of studies by Nick Epley from the University of Chicago where he shows that. That people are afraid to ask deep questions. That we think it's going to be uncomfortable to. On average, we think the other person will think that we're nosy and prying and maybe being too personal. And yet, on average, people want to be asked. Right. We want to be seen, we want to be heard, we want to be witnessed. Of course not. Maybe not ask at the right pace. Right. Maybe not ask the most personal question right away. And so that's actually a lesson for all of us. It's interesting. As I get older, I feel like my friends and I are actually sharing more. And we say to each other, life is too short for small talk. Like, I am done with small talk. Like, honestly, I'm done with small talk. I understand sometimes it's a good social lubricant to get started and. But anyway, I think it's a great lesson is to remember that when you don't ask that deeper question, to think the other person actually might want you to ask.

[Harry Reis]

Yeah, I'll take a slightly different view than what Sonia said. I think small talk has its place. It's certainly a social lubricant, but it's also a way of beginning a conversation. It's also a way of connecting with other people about so you know what's new in your life when. So small talk is all that you do. That's when you start to feel the holes that Sonia was describing. We're okay with small talk, but we want the deeper conversations. When all you do is small talk, it's superficial, it's not much of a relationship. You could just as well not have had the conversation. Two days later, you won't remember it. It won't mean anything to you. So when it's a substitute for deeper conversations, that's when we get into trouble.

[John Miles]

I can't do a conversation with the two of you and not ask you what your experience was like with His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, how did that experience lead to. What you have in the book is an open heart mindset.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Okay, well, can I start we weren't allowed to bring. So this was. We went to India and Dharamsala to. To meet with the Dalai Lama in a small group led by Arthur Brooks. And we weren't allowed to bring phones or anything like, any devices into the meeting. So we could just have a pencil and notebook. And so looking back at my notes and is really interesting because there's two quotes that really resonated with me and the night before, Arthur Brooks gave this talk, and he said, you guys are probably looking for some kind of answer that he's going to deliver, Right. And he's not going to do that, but there's going to be a moment where it's just going to come to you while you're here and you're going to realize it. And so that happened to me at one point where he was talking about love, the His Holiness, and he was talking about this beautiful idea that he said, I'm your mother and you're my mother. We're all each other's mothers. He said, how can we ever hurt each other when we're each other's mothers? This is Buddhist concept. I actually mentioned this all the time. I'll tell you to my kids, I'm your mother, but you're also my mother. And I wrote in big letters in my notes, and I wrote. I said, love is the answer. That's our book. Feeling Loved.

[John Miles]

Yeah.

[Harry Reis]

I'll add to that. I'm one who tends to be skeptical about the great person idea. And so I went into this with curiosity, with intense curiosity, but also with a little bit of skepticism. And I have to tell you that when I was in his presence listening to him, I totally lost that feeling. I felt an aura that this was a person who was totally loving, totally present in the moment. And he's elderly and having physical difficulties at his age, and yet he was still able to communicate all that. And the idea that Sonia mentioned, when he talked about we are all each other's mothers, it really resonated to me. He said, we should always think about the people that we're interacting with as if they were our mother. And how would you treat someone differently if they were your mother? And that idea has really stuck with me, and I've been using it well.

[John Miles]

One of my favorite parts of the book was where you wrote, if His Holiness, the Dalai Lama is right that love is a decision, then the best way to begin cultivating the open heart mindset is by deciding to act with love. Starting today. If he's right about the power of Cherishing others, well being then the best place to start to begin is by deciding to nurture. I love this, the happiness of the people around you. So my last question for you is, someone hears that, how do they begin to have an open heart mindset?

[Harry Reis]

I would give a very simple answer to that. You do it.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Yeah. Showing warmth. Yeah, you do. You start by just doing you. Showing warmth, believing in the other person. And we also talk about something called the Michelangelo phenomenon, the Michelangelo effect, this idea that you see something in the other person that they're trying to achieve. So maybe they want to be a writer or they want to be a marine biologist or they want to be a track runner. And you, you believe in them and you help them realize their dreams. And that's a big part of the open heart mindset. You want them to be happy. You want them to be. Well, it's actually a common like meditation, loving kindness meditation technique. Right. You walk around and I've tried this actually on people I don't like. I'll say to myself, I want them to be happy, her to be happy. I want him to be happy. And I do. I want them to be happy. Because in fact, often the reasons that I'm not liking someone is that they're behaving in a way that's probably rooted in unhappiness or not feeling loved. Right. So if the world, if everyone was happier, the world would be a better place. Right, Harry?

[Harry Reis]

And one of the things his Holiness the Dalai Lama said to us was to think about the person who you most dislike and send loving thoughts their way. And admittedly that was very difficult. But many Buddhists will prey on sending loving kindness towards other people and practicing it towards the person you most dislike is one of the challenges of that meditation.

[John Miles]

Wow. Well, last question and almost a lightning round for you. If the reader takes one small step today to ensure that they're partner feels that they matter, what should it be?

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Have a conversation with another person at least 15 minutes, make it deep.

[Harry Reis]

And when you're talking to that person, really listen to them, Gather the facts, help them explore. Don't think about what your response is going to be. Think about what they're telling you and what it tells you about them as a person.

[John Miles]

Awesome. Well, thank you so much both of you for coming on. It was such an honor. I followed both of your work for so many years. So it truly was a career highlight for me to not only have one of you, but both of you in a conversation. So thank you so much.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

Thank you, thank you John and I love your questions. You ask questions that we've never been asked before, maybe never will be asked again. Thank you for that.

[Harry Reis]

Yeah, we really appreciate talking to you.

[John Miles]

I'm happy to hear that. Because you don't want a person to come to a podcast and have it be the same podcast that they've heard.

[Sonja Lyubomirsky]

They were very honest, informed questions, but I was like, I don't know. There was one that Harry answered. I was like, I did not know how to answer that question. I'm really glad you took that one.

[John Miles]

Thank you very much. That brings us to a close of today's conversation. If this episode stayed with you, it's likely because it's named something familiar. The exhaustion of being useful without feeling known and the quiet ache of being loved without feeling felt. Here are three reflections to carry forward. First, feeling loved is a lived experience. It forms when a person sees that their presence changes the relationship. Second, responsiveness is the proof of mattering. When our signals are noticed and responded to with care, we experience ourselves as having weight. Third, relationships thrive through circulation. Energy returns when people act as a source, not a resource. Sonia and Harry reminded us that love becomes real where attention, curiosity and care move back and forth, restoring the relationship seesaw and allowing people to inhabit the space fully. If this conversation resonated, consider sharing it with someone who may feel invisible in a relationship or leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It's one of the most meaningful ways to support the show. You can watch full conversations on our YouTube channels at John R. Miles or Passion Struck clips and explore Intention driven apparel@start mattering.com On Thursday we continue the you Matter series with psychologist Paul Eastwick where we'll explore attraction, dating and how early impressions shape who gets a second chance to matter. I think it's easy to underestimate how important support is in a relationship. That is often one of the central things that people look for in a relationship partner and one of the central things that relationships provide. It's not like this even exchange of goods and services. Thinking about relationships is like, I don't know, a trade off between like sex and money. These are bad metaphors. Good metaphors are about support. This is the key thing that differentiates happy relationships from unhappy relationships. Until then, remember, you met matter when your presence is felt. You matter when your signals land and love grows where attention circulates with care. I'm John Miles and you've been passion struck.