Why You Feel Like You Don’t Matter (And How to Fix It) | Angela Maiers - EP 752

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Passion Struck with John R. Miles

Episode: Why You Feel Like You Don’t Matter (And How to Fix It) | Angela Maiers (EP 752)
Air Date: April 9, 2026
Guest: Angela Maiers, educator, author, pioneer in the science and practice of “mattering”

---

Main Theme

Exploring "Mattering" as a Fundamental Human Need:
Host John R. Miles and guest Angela Maiers dive deep into the concept of "mattering"—the primal human need to feel significant, valued, and needed. They distinguish mattering from belonging, explore why it erodes in childhood and adulthood, and offer actionable insights for reclaiming a sense of significance. The episode frames mattering as the root cause behind loneliness, disengagement, burnout, and even societal issues like suicide and community breakdown—arguing that almost all flourishing hinges upon restoring the conditions that assure us we matter.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mattering vs. Loneliness and Belonging

• Opening Insight:
  • Angela Maiers: “I don't think we have a loneliness problem. I think we have a mattering problem... Mattering comes first, period.” [00:02]
• Mattering is biologically, sociologically, physiologically essential. Without it, negative outcomes like loneliness and disengagement follow.
• Treating only the symptoms (e.g., loneliness, burnout) fails to address the core need for significance.

2. Origins of Mattering: Lessons from Kindergarten [06:02]

• Two practices in kindergarten show the roots of mattering:

  • Show and Tell: Teaches children to share their unique value and listen for the needs of others—an early form of personal branding and community value exchange.
  • Jobs: Assigning roles gives purpose and signals that everyone is needed.

• Children are naturally eager to share their “backpack” of value; they innately believe they matter until external conditions or comparisons begin to erode this.

  • Notable Quote:
    • “If we can get back to our biological roots as human beings, those are the conditions of being human: to know that you are valued... and that someone else in the room or the world needs exactly what you have.” —Angela Maiers [07:52]

3. Conditional Worthiness & the $100 Bill Exercise [09:03]

• Angela demonstrates mattering’s immutability using a crumpled $100 bill: No matter how “tattered,” the value remains.

• Childhood and adulthood are plagued by conditional worthiness—the trap of constantly trying to “earn” significance.

• Social media, perfectionism, and cultural systems amplify this belief.

  • Key Quote:
    • “Worthiness is immutable. You matter, period.” —Angela Maiers [10:30]

4. Signs of Mattering (or Lack Thereof) in Children [14:22]

• The “smiling eyes” test: Ben Zander’s indicator for genuine well-being—are students’ eyes smiling when they leave your presence?

• Children’s spirits are observable; mattering is visible even before language develops.

• As school and society emphasize performance, children's “smiling eyes” and intrinsic mattering often fade.

  • Quote:
    • “The second your eyes stop smiling because of who you get to be with, the second your company, organization, classroom, relationship is in big trouble.” —Angela Maiers [17:19]

5. The Cultural Crisis: How Systems Undermine Mattering [18:32]

• Societal trends—especially in education—prioritize conditional achievements (test scores, college admissions) over intrinsic value.

• Even kindergartners now hesitate to claim their strengths due to early internalized doubts.

  • Quote:
    • “Average is the anomaly. We have lost our way.” —Angela Maiers [19:44]
    • “Genius is to keep the soul and spirit of childhood all the way through adulthood.” —Angela Maiers [20:00]

6. The Ripple Effects of Mattering Lost [23:45, 31:02]

• Children begin tying worth to performance surprisingly early, depending on family, culture, and birth order.
• Small towns and communal cultures naturally reinforce mattering by celebrating each member’s unique contributions.
• As communities or families fragment, mattering can erode gradually (micro-events) or acutely (triggered by major loss).

7. Societal Costs: Insignificance as Invisible Pandemic [35:58]

• The largest cost to individuals and society is the epidemic of insignificance—impacting energy, relationships, motivation, and well-being.

• Burnout, disengagement, loneliness, hopelessness, and even suicide are interlinked symptoms of lost mattering.

• Angela's Urgency: Mattering is as essential a need as food or water, yet it goes ignored.

  • Quote:
    • “When we feel insignificant… every aspect of our life is affected.” —Angela Maiers [36:01]
    • “When you restore a sense of mattering, you don’t just change how you feel, you completely change how you live.” —John Miles [22:10]

8. Symptoms vs. Root Cause: Belonging Isn’t Mattering [42:32]

• Schools and organizations focus on "belonging" (the current “fad” after kindness) but rarely cultivate true mattering.
• Definition:

  • “Mattering… is your belief that you are significant to the world and those in it.” There are two parts:

    1. Having value (your “backpack”).
    2. Giving value—being needed by others.

  • Quote:

    • “We treat the symptom of insignificance, but we don’t treat the core.” —Angela Maiers [41:15]

9. Organizational Mattering & Leadership [47:09]

• Companies treat employees as utilities rather than creators of value, leading to disengagement.
• Metrics-driven environments undermine significance; system-level change is needed.
• Real-world example: John describes inheriting a disengaged team at Lowe’s. Disconnection stemmed from employees not seeing how their work mattered.

10. Restoring Mattering is Everyone’s Power—Micro-Moments Matter [68:18]

• Anyone, at any time, can help someone feel they matter—with presence, listening, a smile, or acknowledgment.
• Mattering can be rebuilt one micro-action at a time: “Just like we lose mattering in these small actions… it’s the small actions that build it back.” —John Miles [68:18]
• Parents, leaders, coworkers—everyone—play a role: prioritize presence over praise, validation over fixing.

11. Social Media’s Mirror Effect [72:09]

• Social media can amplify both our search for mattering and our emptiness, depending on how authentically it’s used.

• Social media’s danger is amplifying conditional mattering, competition, and obsession with metrics—which are no substitute for true significance.

  • “Technology is a mirror and it will advance whoever the human is… If you go there for a metric or just to get attention… it’s going to lead to emptiness.” —Angela Maiers [73:05]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Angela Maiers (00:02): “I don't think we have a loneliness problem. I think we have a mattering problem. ... Mattering comes first, period. Biologically, sociologically, physiologically.”
• On conditional worth: “Worthiness is immutable. You matter, period.” (Angela Maiers, 10:30)
• How mattering is lost in childhood: “...I can tell you to the date what grade level my kids' eyes started [to] stop smiling.” (Angela Maiers, 16:15)
• On significance vs. success: “Success is about usually our individual metric… But when you pursue significance… others are included. That’s actually what gives your life meaning.” (Angela Maiers, 43:50)
• The stakes: “We’re not just talking about life affirming things like company culture. We’re talking about life saving.” (Angela Maiers, 51:32)

---

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:02 – Mattering vs. loneliness & suicide
• 06:02 – Why show-and-tell and classroom "jobs" matter
• 09:03 – The $100 bill exercise and conditional worth
• 14:22 – Smiling eyes: signs a child feels they matter
• 18:32 – How education systems undermine mattering
• 23:45 – When children start tying worth to performance
• 31:02 – Community, family, and the gradual erosion of mattering
• 35:58 – The societal cost of insignificance
• 42:32 – Debunking belonging vs. mattering
• 47:09 – How corporates ignore mattering in employees
• 53:51 – Why some kids act out or withdraw (pursuit of mattering)
• 68:18 – Micro-actions in restoring mattering
• 72:09 – Social media’s double-edged impact on significance

---

Actionable Takeaways

• Parents/Educators: Prioritize presence and acknowledgment. Children need to feel seen, not just praised or protected.
• Leaders/Organizations: Shift metrics toward significance, make clear how each role matters, and foster authentic inclusion.
• Individuals: You can restore mattering through small, intentional actions—notice, listen, validate, and be present for others.
• Society: Recognize mattering as a fundamental human need—more important than “belonging” or recognition.

---

Closing Reflection

John Miles:
"When someone feels like they matter, everything changes... Mattering isn’t something reserved for a few people. It’s something we can create—in how we show up, how we listen, and how we make others feel seen." [81:54]

---

Further Reading & Resources

• Angela Maiers’ children’s book: “M is for Mattering” (illustrated by her son) [80:04]
• John R. Miles’ upcoming book: “The Mattering Effect” (Preorder at thematteringeffect.com, available October 6th)
• For practical tools: theignitedlife.net

---

Summary by Passion Struck Podcast Summarizer — For those ready to design mattering into their own life and the lives of others.

Transcript

[John Miles]

Coming up next on Passion Struck.

[Angela Meyers]

I don't think we have a loneliness problem. I think we have a mattering problem. I don't believe we have a suicide problem. I believe we have a mattering problem. Mattering comes first, period. Biologically, sociologically, physiologically. And if we guarantee those conditions, then those are consequences of either feeling like you do matter, feeling significant, or feeling insignificant. We treat the symptom of insignificance, but we don't treat the core of what it takes to feel significant.

[John Miles]

Welcome to Passion Struck. I'm your host, John Miles. This is the show where we explore the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live like it matters. Each week, I sit down with change makers, creators, scientists and everyday heroes to decode the human experience and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning, heal what hurts, and pursue the fullest expression of who we're capable of becoming. Whether you're designing your future, developing as a leader, or seeking deeper alignment in your life, this show is your invitation to grow with purpose and act with intention. Because the secret to a life of deep purpose, connection and impact is choosing to live like you matter. Hey, friends, and welcome Back to episode 752 of Passion Struck. Over the course of this month, we've been exploring a powerful idea that a meaningful life doesn't happen by accident. It's something we design. We started this April series Purpose by Design with Arthur Brooks, looking at why so many people today are facing a crisis of meaning. Then with Corrine Lowe, we explored how the systems around us, our work, our expectations, our environments shape the lives that we end up living. And on Tuesday, in my last episode with Claude Steele, we examined something even more subtle. How our interactions with others and the fear of how we're perceived can shape how we show up in the moments that matter most. But today, we bring it all together. Because underneath meaning, underneath systems, underneath identity and interaction, there's something even more fundamental. The human need to know that we matter. Because when that need is met, we feel seen, we feel valued, we feel connected. But when it's not, everything begins to fracture. Our energy, our relationships, our sense of purpose, our and even our will to keep going. And that's where today's guest comes in. My guest is Angela Meyers, a pioneer in the science and practice of mattering. For decades, Angela has studied what makes people feel significant and what happens when they don't. And what she reveals is both simple and profound. That mattering is a biological necessity. In today's conversation, we explore what it truly means to matter and why it's so different from belonging, how worthiness becomes conditional, and why it starts so early in life. We go into why burnout, loneliness, and disengagement are all symptoms of something deeper, and how reclaiming a sense of mattering can transform how you live, lead and relate. At its core, this episode is about one of the most important questions you can ask. Not just what am I doing with my life? But does my life actually feel like it matters? Before we dive in, a quick note. If you want to go deeper into this entire Purpose by Design series, I'm sharing companion reflections and [e-mail] and if you want to go further into the concepts of today's episode, then pre order my upcoming book the Mattering Effect. It's designed to help you not only hear these ideas, but to directly show you how to apply them into your life. Now let's dive into my conversation with Angela Myers. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life that matters.

[Jonathan]

Now let that journey begin.

[John Miles]

Have you ever looked up at the clock and realized it's noon and you've had nothing but coffee? That was me recently. The morning just vanished. Meetings, emails, everything. And suddenly I was starving and completely off track. That's why I've been keeping Huell Black Edition on hand. On days when I'm sprinting out the door, I grab a ready to drink bottle. It's a complete meal with 35 grams of protein, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, no artificial sweeteners, and it actually keeps me full for hours and it's under five bucks. Then when I'm home and want something more customizable, I use the Black Edition powder, blend it with ice, add fruit or nut butter. Same complete nutrition, just a different vibe. Honestly, this combo has become my insurance policy against chaotic days. Limited time offer. Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% off online with my code [e-mail] passion new customers only. Thank you to Huell for partnering and supporting our show.

[Jonathan]

I am absolutely honored today to have Angela Myers join me. Angela, it's so great to finally get you on the show.

[Angela Meyers]

John. I could not be more excited to

[Jonathan]

be here and I want to start off by giving our good friend Gord Flett kudos for getting us together finally. So thank you Gord for doing that.

[Angela Meyers]

Thank you

[Jonathan]

Angela. You have been studying mattering and all aspects of it as long as anyone I know who's in the space I wanted to start here. After everything that you've seen. And this kind of started in the kindergarten classroom.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes.

[Jonathan]

What most reliably convinces a person from what you've seen, that they truly matter,

[Angela Meyers]

that they are needed without question. There's two practices in kindergarten classrooms that should be practices across every classroom, every grade, every community, every business. And that is number one, show and tell. And number two, jobs. And let me explain. Show and tell is a phenomenon. It is not just about bringing something cool from home in your backpack to show off your shiny thing and compete with the person next to you. Show and tell is about figuring out very carefully this dance between positioning and pitching your value to other people who have value and being needed because of it. It's an act of personal branding because if you try to outdo the person's backpack next to you, then you miss the whole point of show and tell, which is to be called out, to be sought after at recess and hear the words tell me more. Can you show me more? Can you help me? So you are having to listen to 25 other people and what's in their backpack so that you don't compete, so that you don't go head to head, but that you bring something that has additional value, that advances the value of the community. And if you think about how socially, psychologically, culturally that is so wired in our DNA, it is not just, and those are the two parts of mattering. It is not just that we have value, that everybody has something in their backpack that is unique and representative of their experience and their essence. It is that there is someone else in the room or the world that needs exactly what you have. And holding it and hiding it in your backpack is immoral. If you think of 5 year olds, if I don't know when you've been around them lately, but if you look at 5 year old holding stuff in their backpack, they literally cannot physically sit or breathe. They are so excited to share. Not because they want to show off. Look at what I got. Look at what I got. Because they fundamentally know that what they have, someone else in their world will need and can benefit and can be inspired and can be helped by it. And if we can get back to our biological roots as human beings, those are the conditions of being human. To know that you are valued and respected, that you have a unique contribution to make and the knowledge that withholding that then hurts another person because there is someone else in the room or the world that needs exactly what you have and only you can deliver.

[Jonathan]

I have heard you use A hundred dollar bill exercise as a way to help people understand this. And I think it's a great analogy.

[Angela Meyers]

I love it.

[Jonathan]

People to hear.

[Angela Meyers]

I just did this with a room of women CEOs because it doesn't matter if you're bigger than five, whether you're 55 or you're 85. And I won't say only women, but I see this as a significant cultural contextual trait in women where we struggle to feel enough as I'll say this, as a mother, you never. And as a father, I'm sure you always feel like you are screwing up or disappointing from the moment you have a child all the way. Mine are 26, 27, 28 and 29. And I still feel, oh, I should have, would have. And so we live in a world, no matter, you know, what role you have in that world where worthiness is conditional. And we have accepted that worthiness is conditional. And so whether we put those conditions on ourself. So I dropped out of graduate school, I'm a PhD dropout, so. So that stayed with me for a long time. Well, when I get my master's, I'll be respected. Well, when I get my PhD. Well, when I publish this. Well, if I did this or just only if we put all these conditions around. And that is before social media. So now add the world of filters and perfection and hashtag, everything is great on top of it. And worthiness is not a fleeting concept. It is not self esteem, which can go up and down like I'm having a good hair day, I feel good today and tomorrow it could be terrible. It is absolutely influenced by outside forces and it does impact your identity. But worthiness is immutable. You matter, period. And so I don't even know where I saw this or heard it back. I've been using it for a decade, is I bring a hundred dollar bill or $50 bill if I can't find 100 and hold it up in the room. And everybody raised their hand. How many people want this? Of course. Why? Because that is a hundred dollars, period. Period. That is a hundred dollars immutable value. And then I step on it, I crumple it, I dump water on it, I like will mark on it with a marker, carefully mark on it. I will literally destroy it with every outside force that I have. And then I hold that little wimpy dollar back up there, tattered and torn and just brutalized by these outside forces and ask the same question, how many of you want that? And they all raise their hand because no Matter what happened, no matter what force, whether we perpetrated that force or it just happened to blow away in the wind and get tattered and torn, that value never changed. And as soon as we get that, a whole lot of everything else in the world makes sense. And what I love most about my insights into mattering, starting with 5 year olds, is 5 year olds. No matter what country I'm in, no matter what language, no matter what zip code they come from, how tall they are, if their hair is curly, if they wear glasses, they all know that they show up into the world and they understand that they matter. They do not have to be convinced. They just demand that human dignity reciprocated. Will see me, you will say my name. You will honor that. But they show up like, hey, you are so lucky to be in my presence. And they're not doing it out of hubris, they're not doing it out of ego. They truly believe that they have something that their presence will bring to you that will leave you better off than they found you. And that's a beautiful thing to be around.

[Jonathan]

Oh, it certainly is. And like you, I have a children's book that just came out, so I've been spending more time around 4 and 5 year olds than I have in a very long time.

[Angela Meyers]

It's exhilarating, isn't it?

[Jonathan]

In fact, I'm going to your neck of the woods next week to Colorado, to whole school.

[Angela Meyers]

Oh my God, we have. I have to come to that. I have to meet you. I have to meet you in person.

[Jonathan]

That's on the other side of the state from you. It's in grand juncture.

[Angela Meyers]

Oh, that is a little ways. But I'm still glad you're here. You're still flying to Denver, right?

[Jonathan]

I guess that all depends on who you go through. If you fly united, you go through there. If you. Yeah, right. I'll have to get back to you because I can't remember who I'm calling.

[Angela Meyers]

Absolutely. No, it's very humbling. It's a humbling experience to be around 5 year olds around. I would say students in general does really doesn't matter what grade level because they very rarely get their presence as human beings, not as students or not as children, but their presence as human beings validated where you are really there to listen and to learn and to be fully present for who they are. Because we're so busy as adults trying to create and guide and craft them into who they're going to be that we forget to understand and be in awe of who they are right now.

[Jonathan]

I think that's a perfect way to say it. And when I really dove into this, started coming at this from the adult angle, because that's who I am. But I realized that that mattering is like an immunity, a social immunity. And when it starts breaking down, it breaks it, it's breaking, being broken down from generation to generation. And the people who feel it the most are kids. If you're going to intervene and start giving them that signal earlier, then the best time to do it is not when they're in high school, it's when they're in that three to five, six year old period. What have you found are the most observable signs that a child feels like they matter before they have the language to express it? I know it starts with the mattering instinct when we're born, right? But what are other things that that child children give off?

[Angela Meyers]

Ben Zander, who was the former conductor of the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra and I got to see him live, has one of the best underrated TED talks. And in his TED talks, I think it's called the Art of possibility or something like that. But just type in Ben Zander, ted. And he, he talks about him as a conductor, as a teacher, and that at the end of the day, after he goes through his whole cycle of teaching, that he looks for one indicator, one indicator that he has left a human being who happens to be one of his students better off than he found him. And he said, I look to see if their eyes are smiling. And if their eyes are smiling when they leave my classroom, they will run back the next day. And if their eyes aren't smiling, then I ask myself, what have I done today and what do I need to do tomorrow to make their eyes smile? And I think that's a telltale human sign that cannot be faked. It cannot be. It. It's just so a part of us, when someone is in our presence, that we know not only is safe, we know not only that they might be there to help us in some way, but they are there to see us, to fully see and appreciate who we are. Our eyes smile. Maya Angelou talks about this too. Like whenever you greet your child, that you greet them at the eye level because eyes are the window to the soul. And you can genuinely tell if somebody is, oh, hey, good to see you. We see past each other all of the time, but not only when you see somebody, but when your eyes are smiling because of someone else. There's just nothing better for your soul, for your Heart for your brain for you. And one of my big realizations, before I even knew the word mattering, I did what many parents do. You drag your kids to the front porch and you sit them on the front porch and you take their picture. Kindergarten, first grade, all the way up. I can tell you to the date what grade level that my kids eyes started smiling. Stop smiling. I could see literally their soul sucked out in their faces the moment school became a get to go and a get to do to a have to do. And I think you could see that same progression whether you're putting CEOs in front of their building, all the way. The second your eyes stop smiling because of who you get to be with, the second your company, your organization, your classroom, your relationship is in big trouble. And it's such a unmistakable indicator.

[Jonathan]

I really, here in the United States, I go back to the 80s when we introduced no Kid Left behind and some of the other programs to do really good things. But I think when we started making kids feel. Feel that their worth was conditional to grades and.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes.

[Jonathan]

And we started taking play out of the classroom, everything has fundamentally changed.

[Angela Meyers]

Absolutely. So celebrating the essence and beauty of childhood in every way, we turned our kindergarten classrooms, not even kindergarten, our preschool classrooms, into college prep classes. We treat getting into preschool as parents, like you are trying to get into an Ivy League school, like the level. And it just, we have completely lost our way, which is a whole nother podcast topic.

[Jonathan]

I was just talking to a friend of mine who he had. His kids are now in, in their 30s and one of them lives in New York and he wanted to send his kids to one of the best elementary schools in New York, private schools. And I just said to get a, an understanding. What is your son paying for their education? And the kids are, one is in kindergarten, the other is in second grade. $65,000 per year, $130,000.

[Angela Meyers]

Oh, wow. I have no words. I literally, I have no words because worthiness to that parent is conditional. And it is. Mainstream isn't even the right word. It is so infused with, in our culture. Not even like throwing social media under the bus or throwing the media under the bus. That. So like, I have this statement when I talk to kids. The first thing I say is, you are a genius and the world needs your contribution. That's the fundamental thesis of choose to matter. And of course everybody freaks out. I remember my first one of my publishers was like, you can't use the word genius. I'm like, I absolutely am going to use the word genius. Just to disturb because we have lost our mind. That genius is some DNA anomaly. Average is the anomaly. We have lost our way. If you go back to. I think the earliest definition I found was in 1604 by scientist named Alex Hurley. And he said the essence of genius is to keep the soul and spirit of childhood all the way through adulthood. And think of the people that have been able to do that and the role of play and the role of. Anyway. So when I say that encompasses every aspect and every principle of the science of mattering. And yet, like I've said it in front of auditorium with thousands of kids, kindergartner. How many kindergartners raise their hand when you say that you are a genius and the world needs your contribution? Two hands go up, they rush the stage. They're out there on the stage. And I'm a dancer, I'm this, I'm that. And it used to be like, you're thinking when I started teaching 35 years ago that it was middle school. When that started fading, we started just being awkward about ourselves. No, 6 and 7 year olds, 6 and 7 year olds hesitate and they have begun this cycle of conditional worthiness, of doubting who they are. And they'll be like, well, I can't raise my hand and say that I'm a genius. That's. I'm not, I'm just. And then that whole horrific sequence of words comes in. I am just, I am only and if. And I'm. I'm. And then that whole narrative takes over. That is the norm. That is why we think genius is a weird word. And we don't think any of that is weird. Because we are conditioned to do that to ourselves and to each other.

[John Miles]

Before we continue, I want to pause

[Jonathan]

for a moment because if there's one

[John Miles]

idea at the center of today's conversation, it's this. Mattering is not optional. It's not something nice to have. It's not a bonus. If life is going well, it's foundational. And when that sense of mattering starts to erode, it doesn't just affect one area of your life, it affects everything. Your energy, your motivation, your relationships, and your sense of purpose. That's exactly why I wrote my upcoming book, the Mattering Effect. Because what I found through research, through conversations, but like this one with Angela and through my own life, is that many of the struggles people are facing today, burnout, disconnection, loneliness, they're not separate problems. They're all signals that somewhere along the way we stop feeling like we matter. The Mattering effect is about understanding how that happens and more importantly, how to reclaim it so you can live, lead, and show up in a way that actually feels aligned with who you are. If today's episode resonates with you, you can pre order the mattering effect [e-mail] it's available October 6th. Because when you restore a sense of mattering, you don't just change how you feel, you completely change how you live. Now, a quick break for our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. You're listening to Passion Struck right here

[Jonathan]

on the Passion Struck Network.

[John Miles]

Now let's return to my conversation with Angela Myers.

[Jonathan]

Angela, I just want to take one step back because I think it's important and I, you and I both key into this word worth. At what developmental stage? Because you just mentioned 7 and 8 year olds. What developmental stage, from your research and your lived experience, did children start linking their worth to performance rather than presence?

[Angela Meyers]

It depends on their families. It doesn't depend on school. Depends on their families. So from a very early age. And I think there's other factors like gender and birth order that do have some validity that I don't know deep into that research. But I was the firstborn, I was the first girl to go to college, and I lived in a super small town of 700 people in the middle of a cornfield in Iowa. It was like a big deal. So I think it's generational, I think it's cultural. I think that a lot of those factors, but I think the community's emphasis not just I'm not like dumping on parents. I don't want you to think I'm dumping on parents because parents feel the pressure. But when I look at what we focus on expands and when we focus on all of those outside factors, this is the best school in who. Who qualifies? The best school. What is qualifier? What are the qualifiers? They are test scores. They are how many kids get scholarships? They're how many kids that get into college. They're I went to my niece's graduation and I was just mortified because the whole graduation was celebrating these qualifiers. Like by the numbers. This is how much money in scholarships XYZ got. This is how many kids. If you were sitting in the audience and you were a parent of a kid that, that didn't get this, that didn't wear some colored rope around their neck that said, I jumped through this suit. When we look at the essence of our humanity is the impact that we have on other people that we have in our community. So we have lost that. And maybe it is because I grew up in a small town and there's these unwritten small town rules. Literally, like when a new person would come to a small town, you would have a barbecue for them and everybody would bring their best. They wouldn't bring like crusty bread and they definitely wouldn't go to the grocery store and put it in a Tupperware. Like you showcase the best of who you are because everything you brought to that barbecue. But the next time, and then you invited the new people to taste all the wares to get a sense of who we were as a community. But the of sense, second time you had a barbecue, you better bring something. If you show up empty handed, you're in trouble. If you show up and you copy another person, if you show up and try to compete with Donna's potato salad recipe, you are in trouble. The essence of what makes a small town role is that everybody has something unique. And when you put it all on the table, you have this feast of, you have this festival of talent and taste. And that's how they operate the small town. The guy, my father was the mayor of a town and the fire chief and he had a normal job at the factory, at the plant. The plant. So you're not just. No one is just a farmer. No one is just they're a farmer, the pastor of a church, the head of the city council. There are a million things. Because in a small town you tap in and you acknowledge everyone. And the weird person in the community is the person who shuts all their windows and doesn't interact and doesn't honor everybody's little contribution. That's one of your biggest jobs when you move into a small town is figure out who are you going to be for that town. Who are we going to go to for what when we need X and that's what five year olds do. Who are we going to figure out who to go to for whatever? When we isolate, when we put ourselves in categories, when we create these crazy hierarchies on random attributes, then we lose the essence of what makes us human and what makes us strong. Communities that are resilient and can withstand and flourish using your word.

[Jonathan]

When I was growing up, my father is from Detroit and I have a large family ecosystem in Detroit. But unfortunately for him, his father, who I never got a chance to meet because he unfortunately passed away before I was born, was just brutal. He was a very angry alcoholic, which is a dangerous combination.

[Angela Meyers]

It is a very Dangerous. Sorry, John.

[Jonathan]

And my father was the firstborn, so he took the brunt of it. So as soon as he could escape, we became the nuclear family. But I was always so jealous in many ways because we would go home to the Detroit area for Thanksgiving or Michigan football games or whatever. And they had this incredible family ecosystem where you would see all your cousins and aunts and uncles who were getting together almost every weekend in these big family units. And I remember going to Christmas there and they were like 80, 90 people and they all knew each other and they all. And I really missed that experience as a child. And I think what you're saying about the small town is that difference between the nuclear family and having that larger ecosystem around you.

[Angela Meyers]

If you look culturally, I do a lot of work. I've been working in Hawaii for about 30 years in really rural communities. Everything that is the opposite direction from all of what people think Hawaii is, all the tourist stuff. And that is one of the hallmarks at both the school level, the community level, the family level. Like you can go through a park and you're not talking about like a family picnic. For us was going to this park and everybody bring a covered dish. Their family picnics are. You've got blow up toys and bouncy houses and they are there for the weekend. You've got tents. It is an event. And I go by that. I'm like, it just reminds me of. Kids don't grow up with that experience anymore. They may play with one or two kids and I get that balance of safety. But there's something so beautiful to see like not 20 or 30, 60 people that are friends and family together. And that's a every weekend kind of thing. It's not, oh, it's this fourth of July and all the families get together. That's every weekend. It's community is so embedded in the culture of Hawaii. So I do think you see that in different cultures and spaces. I think you see less and less of it in the United States.

[Jonathan]

When I look at that scenario and that family, it, everything has changed now because my, my grandmother and her sisters, etc were the trigger point that I think the group organized them because there were so many of them. And now that they've passed, a lot of the cousins who are my age have all drifted. So they're now living in Chicago or Koske or so they're no longer there. So it leads me to this question. When you see communities start to disintegrate or these small towns or family ecosystems, do you think the loss of Mattering is usually gradual. Or is it triggered by specific experiences?

[Angela Meyers]

That's such a tough question. I think if mattering is so individual, it is, even though it is our universal human condition, it's. It is so fundamental to and inseparable from every aspect of our life, and yet it's very personal. I'm working with a community. We're doing a project in Appalachia called you matter. Appalachia. And what I'm seeing there is a phenomenon of what is the impact when an entire community, not just a group within the community or an individual within the community or grade level or a certain group, that is what we would deem at risk or at promise. It's what if your brand as a community is you don't matter? And that's been proven to you over. And that goes into a lot of Gordon's work with anti mattering. And when humans get to that point, what gets a human being to that point? And then I look at people who grew up in the same household. I've been very vocal about this, but I lost my brother to suicide at the pinnacle of his career, at the pinnacle of his life, in. In a loving family, surrounded by people who cared about him. Like, stunning, Just stunning. So it is as individual as it is. There isn't an answer. I don't have an answer to that. But not noticing and not knowing, that's a hard part. I go back to then the quickest. I think you said something about anecdote, but that's what I feel like mattering is. It is both. Both the promise and the peril that we have this antidote that can, I don't think just ease, but can literally eradicate all the things that we struggle with, from apathy to agony and everything in between. And it's free and it costs nothing, and anybody can do it at any time. And when I say that out loud and, and I even say to the people I say it to, I know I sound like a snake oil salesman. If I said, you know what, here's this pill and it's going to cost you a hundred thousand dollars a month to buy. And it's so rare and you've got to do all this training and it's going to take 17 years to even see, people would be buying it by the billions. I think that's like the cruelty about the science, like the pain. If I look at what my deepest pain point is, knowing that this anecdote is available and it's freely available to anyone at any time, if they understood the elements of mattering and the urgency that humans need to know they matter. And yet no one knows it exists. No one seems like in, in many states cares that much. It just sounds like gobbledygook. That's painful.

[Jonathan]

My personal hypothesis on this is I compare it a lot to burnout, which is something I unfortunately went through. And I don't think any person goes from not being burned out to being burned out overnight. What ends up happening is. It's a series of micro events.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes.

[Jonathan]

That eventually cause it to happen. So much so that while it's happening, you don't really realize it's like low state depression before it becomes serious depression.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes.

[Jonathan]

You realize your world is getting a little less bright, but it's not such a huge change that, that you perceive it. And I think mattering is the same way. And so when people.

[Angela Meyers]

I fully agree with that. I do. It happens slowly. And then all of a sudden you wake up. I think that's what Covet was Covid, was that all of a sudden wake up like we did not have the great resignation and quiet quitting. All of a sudden this has happened slowly, dripping, dripping, drifting by these micro actions and micro movements. And then at mass scale, it was all revealed at the same time. Like it happened all of a sudden. No one should be surprised that existed. I think the surprise was that it was so collective and so. But that it occurs, that it occurred. Not a surprise at all.

[Jonathan]

Well, I'll tell you another thing that played into that is we are all so busy that most of us aren't really analyzing our human condition.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes.

[Jonathan]

But in that time, people had more time to think about things. And I think so many of them realized, man, I hate what I'm doing. Why do I keep doing this?

[Angela Meyers]

Why am I doing this?

[Jonathan]

So, Angela, what have you found is the cost to an individual and then to society if you could go through each one? When people go through life believing they

[Angela Meyers]

don't matter, I don't think there's a greater cost. I think there's this invisible pandemic that we have called insignificance. And I think it is the greatest danger to an individual, to an organization, to our humanity, because when we feel insignificant and we feel like our presence doesn't matter in the world, which is the definition of mattering, every aspect of our life is affected because. So I do this exercise in my speeches or workshops because I want people to experience mattering because it can be experienced and activated so quickly. And so I'll have them close their eyes And I'll read some statements like I, John, I see you, I hear you. When I saw your face today, I breathed a sigh of relief. I couldn't imagine doing this without you. Just simple statements. And then I asked people, how does that feel? Just in those seconds, how did it feel to just hear those things? Where did it resonate? And you will get like profound feelings. And then I show the whole like in a word bubble, like imagine people coming to the world feeling any one of these things, let alone multiple. Feeling appreciated, feeling valuable, feeling worthy, feeling beautiful, feeling strong, feeling hopeful. That's one of the biggest words that comes out. Feeling hopeful, feeling motivated, feeling energized. So when you look at every metric we have, whether it's a health metric, whether it's an academic metric, whether it's a metric that a Fortune 500 company has or a small business has, every metric, every measure, everything that we achieve or envision is impacted by how human beings show up. And you show up differently to the world when you know you matter because you feel these things. It is in your DNA. You're wired for that. So when individuals don't feel these things or repeatedly don't feel or experience any of those things, if you can imagine that word cloud up, they're going to show up differently. And they may get through work or they may get through this, but it the long term impact, it is inseparable from every aspect of our life. It's inseparable from our health, it's inseparable from our energy and ability to be productive. It's inseparable from how we show up in relationships. So how you show up in the world matters. And it is impacted not just by our perceptions, but by what we deeply need to feel. These aren't ego driven things, these are driven by our DNA.

[Jonathan]

When I think about this, and it took me a long time to get here and Gord is now talking about this as well, I for such a long time, like I think most of society, yeah, I would bucket disengagement at work and people feeling burned out and exhausted. In one bucket I put loneliness. In another bucket I put hopelessness. In another bucket, I put people who were broken and the homeless in another bucket. And then I started backtracking. And when you look at the word insignificance, when you reach a point like we were talking about, where those micro yes elements are taken away from you so much, eventually it hockey sticks. And that's when all these conditions start happening. And I was on a podcast and they were asking me what would you say to the person who doesn't feel significant? And I said, the first thing that you're probably thinking is that you're alone. And then I want you to tell you the loneliness epidemic is saying 50% of people feel this way.

[Angela Meyers]

Right.

[Jonathan]

77% of people are disengaged. You have this huge bucket.

[Angela Meyers]

Yep. I'm like, for three decades, ever since I've been reporting on Gallup in terms of workforce data, whether it's their individual workforce report or meta analysis of many things, that's the number one thing. And that's why I said it's a range. It's literally an entire spectrum of everything from apathy to full blown agony and everything in between. And we like pulling out those pieces because they seem more concrete and put a band aid on that, like loneliness or even suicide. I don't think we have a loneliness problem. I think we have a mattering problem. I don't believe we have a suicide problem. I believe we have a mattering problem. Mattering comes first, period. Biologically, sociologically, physiologically. And if we guarantee those conditions, then we start. Those are consequences of either feeling like you do matter, feeling significant or feeling insignificant. So we treat the symptom of insignificance, but we don't treat the core of what it takes to feel significant. And that is like my biggest frustration because then we put. I think we've probably quadrupled the cost of. I know just from education in we were doing post pandemic, how much money has been spent on sel. Social emotional learning, which is a joke in and of itself. But on. On all of these now belongings. The big thing before we went through this loneliness thing, then we went through character, then we went through, I don't know, all the phases of education. Now it's on belonging. Everything is on belonging. And I'm. That was kindness. Kindness was a long time then belonging. It's not that you're anti kindness or you're anti belonging. It's just those are these symptoms, these pieces or these elements that can either contribute to significance or decrease someone's ability to feel significant. But we never ever talk about what those conditions are. And that's. And then we just keep going round and round.

[Jonathan]

Angela, I just want to stop you for a second because people are listening to this and they're saying, John and Angela are talking about mattering. And then she just said that social

[Angela Meyers]

emotional learning, like kind people now.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, no, but where you're going is. Social emotional learning has been focusing on belonging and this Is one of the things I don't think people understand, that belonging to is different than mattering. Zach Mercurial gave me a definition of this, but I'd love to hear yours.

[Angela Meyers]

Yeah. So mattering to me, at its core is your belief that you are significant to the world and those in it. Very simple. And it arises from two really key attributes that can be broken down. The first is this is the show and tell. That you have something in your backpack that you bring to the world that has value, that's immutable, that you, because you exist, you have a backpack of experiences, of talents, of extraordinary insights and perspectives that is with you the moment you enter the world. This invisible backpack, you have value, period. And with that, we get our value acknowledged when people see us, when they hear us, when. When they have smiling eyes, when they're present with us, all of those things. But the second part of mattering, that has to be there for mattering to arise, is that we give value to other people. Yes, we matter because we exist, but we were not created to. To exist. We were created for significance. So we are there in the world because someone else in that world needs exactly what we have and what we bring to it. And withholding that doesn't just hurt them, it actually hurts us because it's through our ability to give value away, to serve, to impact, to leave people better off than we found them, that we. That we get to significance. Success is about usually our individual metric. That's why I've been pondering this really deep question. I don't know the answer to it, but you know how Jim Collins rocked my world when he said good is the enemy of great? Literally, I was like, that is a typo. Because we live in this world where it's the opposite, where you get good and a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better. And maybe you hit great, but. But he literally rocked my whole existence when he's like, good or good is the enemy of great? And I'm like, are we at that precipice where success is the opposite of significance and that we can pursue success, which we see thousands of examples of people achieving the highest levels of anything humanly possible that could be celebrated at gold medal level, or have the talent of Whitney Houston or Michael Jackson and then find out that they still laid their head down and didn't think they were enough for the world? But when you pursue significance, when. Which a requirement of that is that others are included, that you are sharing something, that you create a condition where you are needed, whether you are relied on, whether you are counted on. That's actually what gives your life meaning. Victor Frankl wrote all about this in A Man's search for meaning in the most Horrendous conditions and that I just taught. I was on a leadership podcast earlier, and the CEO of this company that's like a $400 million company was saying, my legacy is to impart that leadership isn't about you. That leadership is about how you leave people. And I'm just like, it's such a simple concept, but that's the opposite of success. Because we've treated leadership or we've created status, or success is that you have made it to the top of your qualifiers, and maybe the world agrees with those qualifiers and you can have that label or title, but it doesn't make you satisfied, it doesn't make you feel complete, and it certainly doesn't make you feel fulfilled. You're fulfilled when you know that somebody's day is different. Somebody showed up in the world differently because of you.

[Jonathan]

Well, unfortunately, in the company environment, and I've been with some of the biggest companies in the world, everything is driven by the external metrics, especially if you're a public company that you're valued by.

[Angela Meyers]

Right.

[Jonathan]

So typically that shift shareholder value, right, which then is driven by like your top line and your bottom line. So that's where all the attention goes. So what has happened in corporations now for a very long time is the employees just become utilities of that. So to me, it's really going to take systems change of having the metrics around which we judge what success is.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes.

[Jonathan]

And at a higher, more macro level to get this to change within companies. But I, when I was at Lowe's, I tell this story, I took over this function and I was inheriting a mess to begin with because Lowe's had undergone the worst hacking incident in the history of retail. This was like in 2004.

[Angela Meyers]

I did not know that.

[Jonathan]

And so you already had this huge issue. And then the group that I took over, which was responsible for fixing it, we had a new head of HR who'd come in about six months before I got there, and she did the first employee engagement survey. And she sits me down like I'm in week two. And she goes, john, I know you got to fix this whole security thing. But the survey came back and you have the most disengaged group in the entire company. 320, 000 employees. And I've got them all disengaged. And what I found when I started to interview my customers and my peers is they're like, your group is like a bunch of absentees. They don't know what the heck they're doing. You should just get rid of all of them. And then when I started talking to them, yes. What I inherited was a bunch of ghosts because they had no idea how anything that, like they did mattered to anything.

[Angela Meyers]

Right, right.

[Jonathan]

And then their leadership couldn't have cured anything about what their dreams or aspirations were.

[Angela Meyers]

You described my husband's company, which he. Literally counting the days. He's been with this company for almost 30 years. And every day, like I even said, like, his voice, you can feel like the soul being sucked out of him. And it's the level in which this large company treats their employees like should be studied. And it's not unique. Whether it's his company or another one. It is. I don't understand how companies can afford to ignore this. You ignore it at your peril. And even with examples like Starbucks and Disney and all of these places, Zappos, that, that prove that mattering pays off, that heart share trumps market share and mind share, they still just operate. I just don't understand it. I don't understand how you can treat your employees like this and expect. I don't get it.

[Jonathan]

Zappos is such a sad story because here you have Tony, who is trying to create a company.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes.

[Jonathan]

To make everyone feel like they mattered when he himself, especially after Amazon purchased them, lost his own significance. And, and when I asked you that question, what is the cost? He paid the ultimate cost.

[Angela Meyers]

Right.

[Jonathan]

Because he felt so insignificant.

[Angela Meyers]

Absolutely.

[Jonathan]

His life ended at 46.

[Angela Meyers]

Just. Yeah.

[Jonathan]

And that's. I bring that up because that is, that's what we're talking about here.

[John Miles]

We keep.

[Jonathan]

I was talking to a, a friend who is now trying to help the current administration deal with suicides in the veteran community. And it's like, no matter how much money they throw at this.

[Angela Meyers]

Absolutely.

[Jonathan]

It's not changing. And I had a friend who did a TED Talk on this. And you, you know how much background research Ted does before you present anything. And he, he did this TED Talk and he's. During the 20 year war on terror, there were 5,000, 6,000 service members who lost their lives.

[John Miles]

Terrible.

[Jonathan]

But he goes, if you look at how many suicides there were in the same period of time, it was well over 150,000. And that's not counting active duty.

[Angela Meyers]

Right, Right.

[Jonathan]

So you can see the ramifications of this. And I think A ton of them could be linked directly to this 100%.

[Angela Meyers]

It is where my urgency comes from. I'm sad that an employee is disengaged or doesn't bring their best self to work. But we are not just talking about life affirming things or life changing things, like creating a different culture at your work. We're talking about life saving. And that's probably the realm that I spend the most time in and really understand. When you dig down into it, I have so many communities in store. I worked with this. It was at five communities that in 20, in five months had 28 suicides, the youngest five years old. So they created this task force with every touch point from first responders to hospitals, to parents, to schools, to everything. And we put all that data together. The foundational thing discovered was that if you asked everyone in that community, does this kid matter to you, Would you care if they showed up? Their perception was that if I didn't show up, nobody would notice and nobody would care. And so we have this perception gap. That's why we have a perception problem. Because we perceive and want to believe that everybody we touch knows that they matter. When the reality is if we presented mattering as it should be like an essential need, food, water, shelter, air, then we would take care of each other as a community and understand that without being seen, without being heard, without understanding our value, without an opportunity to contribute that value, we are withholding basic needs. This isn't a nicety, it's not an employee engagement, it's not a theme to kick off a school year. This is about life, living fully, flourishing and closing your eyes at the end of the day, no matter how imperfect you were in that day or the day itself, was knowing that you're going to get back up the next day and do it all again because there's people that are counting on you. You are needed.

[Jonathan]

Angela, since you brought this back to children, because I think this manifests then later for adults who do the same thing. Why do some children act out while others withdraw when they feel they don't matter?

[Angela Meyers]

Because we will do anything. So this goes back to the mattering instinct from the moment we are born for your community, that this is new. The moment an infant comes out. Our first act as a living, breathing human being is to twist our necks, to look up and to have our existence acknowledged. And infants who don't get this go into failing to thrive. So there's a physical response. So before we ask for food, before we belong, before we decide if we're lonely and need people around. Mattering comes first. So what we don't understand is that every breath after that we are on a quest for significance. So we don't wear a sign that says do I matter to you? But every day as human beings, just like we don't a sign that says I need to eat three times a day Or I get really grumpy or I need seven hours of sleep because if you saw me on four hours of sleep, you don't want to be around me or I'm going to show up at the bare minimum today because I have not been drinking water, I've been drinking soda or whatever it is. That's what those elements are, that's what those are conditions of being human. And they are the foundation not only of our liveliness, they're the foundation of our dignity. So not only we taking like essential biological needs away like we would withholding sleep or withholding food or water, food and water and sleep are not found, they're foundational. But they don't directly relate to our dignity immediately. But when we feel invisible or we feel unheard or we feel like the world is not going to care if I don't show up today, then we're losing our humanity by ignoring mattering. And so the level of urgency for the world to understand that this is the most powerful force and we have 50 years of science to back it up. It is heartbreaking to be like I've never heard of nutrition and how nutrition is linked to health. Oh, it's like that blatant. And mattering is still in the scheme, not our world, but in the scheme of the world, something that even the world's most elite don't know about. And we've got to stop that. That's my mission.

[Jonathan]

Do you think it's more damaging for a child to receive negative attention or for them to be ignored entirely?

[Angela Meyers]

And why I think that. So I'll go back to. I should have answered your first question, which is every breath after that first breath we are on a quest to matter. And we will pursue that biologically, subconsciously, no matter where that leads. And if we're not getting it in a positive way, then we're going to get it in a negative way. From personal experience, I think negative, obviously negative behavior gets attention. It gets attention even if it's in the wrong way. It gets something. I think one of the cruelest things that we can do to human beings is not see them, make them feel non existent and invisible. So I think that has far More reaching damaging effects than punishment of bad behavior. You can look into all the research on solitary confinement. You can look on all the research on invisibility. I think the dangers are that you are much more likely, I believe, let's say you were a naughty kid in school and you got disciplined a lot and you spent a lot of time in the principal's office. I don't necessarily see a prison population like a direct line from that. But kids that were forsaken were ignored and completely just looked over that they score. And Gordon would be better to talk about this higher on the anti mattering scale. That's my gut feeling. I don't have the hardcore numbers, but I don't think there's anything more heart wrenching. When you think of invisibility, you think of agony. It's agonizing feeling invisible. It you physiologically ache when you're just trying to say do I matter to you? Do you hear me? Do you see me? Versus getting in trouble for doing something. You're still getting feedback, you're still getting attention, you're still being noticed. So I don't know. That is a good Gordon question.

[Jonathan]

Yeah. When I go back to that example of my. My father.

[Angela Meyers]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

He was in a system and I think a lot of people who, he's 87 now, who grew up at that time, they were praised for being silent. Don't make any noise, don't disturb. Dad's had a hard day at work, he comes home, he's drinking. Just be silent. Yeah, but I think the modern world is. So many parents do excessive praise and over protection of their kids.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes.

[Jonathan]

How does that distort a child's internal sense of mattering?

[Angela Meyers]

Because the child never gets the experience of being needed by someone else. The child never builds resilience or self efficacy or agency which are critical to all of their development. Not just academically, but emotionally. In relationships that form. We are creating a generation of human beings that have been denied the opportunity to find out how strong they are. Have been denied the opportunity to find out what they are truly capable of. Because it is through those obstacles, it is through pain and heartbreak that we discover. And not just from others, but for ourselves. Yes, this is horrible. But I know I can make it. I know I am capable. If this happens again, I know exactly what to do and what not to do. When you take away all of that, all of the struggle as a parent, and on top of that you give kids everything to continually make them feel good, this goes to worthiness. Worthiness is deep in our DNA, if it's not conditional on the outside, you cannot throw worthiness at somebody else. You've got this trophy that then it's about the parents perception of worthiness. It's not about the kid at all. My kid goes to the school, my kid has this. My kid. That's great. You can be proud of your kid. But it's a fine line. Because if you don't have an example of pain that your child has handled on their own, that you have been their buffer for everything, that it is so dangerous. Because we have human beings that don't know how to build up their own courage muscles. They do not know how to intentionally lean into discomfort because everything in their life has been, at the minimum, comfortable. And I get that as a parent. It is so hard to watch your kids struggle, and it is so easy to want to jump in and fix it. And yet I look at every lesson in my life, every scar I have, every failure, massive failures that I've done has given me confidence that no accolade, no grade, no pat on the back, no anything. That's who I am and who I know who I am not because someone else built that or made that. It's because I know what I'm made of. I know what I'm capable of. You can't buy that. There's no program for that. Experience is that Life is that. And if you thwart life's experiences, then you are literally taking away that child's ability to live free fully. And parents don't get that. And it's a really hard conversation that I have with parents. And it just keeps getting worse and worse. I've never seen such a coddled generation. I've never seen. And even I was just saying to my husband the other night, like, even characters on TV that we used to look up to, like, that there was a scene, like, it was a. I think it was like a Saturday Night Live skit. And it was a Godfather scene where. Where Marlon Brando was just like, slapping the person or not mar. But whoever was in the Godfather was just like, slapping them up the side because the son was crying or whining and he's like, get out there. It was ridiculous. Like, it's just hard to watch because it's a little bit at a time, and then it's. All of a sudden you have an entire generation that. That truly hasn't gone through. I know Covid was hard, and I know there's hardships in the world and. But not hardships like our grandfather went through, not hardships like our parents went through. Like a whole different criteria of what

[Jonathan]

is a hardship completely is one. I think some of that resilience is extremely important, which is. And I've sent you a copy of my children's book, but I'm so excited for that. One of the last things I did when I was writing it is I put in a whole two scenes into it where I wanted the children reading it to see the main character going through a turbulent time. Because I, I wanted them to see that even at some points when we feel like we matter and we find that superpower and everything feels great, life has ups and downs and you're going to run into them. But that doesn't mean going back to your hundred dollar bill saying.

[Angela Meyers]

Right.

[Jonathan]

That when you go through that down period that you're. That you matter any less.

[Angela Meyers]

That's right.

[Jonathan]

And that's what I was trying to restore.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes, absolutely.

[Jonathan]

So thinking of this restoration.

[Angela Meyers]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

Do you think one person can restore mattering for someone else?

[Angela Meyers]

100%. Yes. At. Let me rephrase that. Anyone at any time, anywhere can change the state of someone's mattering by creating conditions. Complete strangers, we. We often think of mattering with people that we love and serve, and that's important. But do not underestimate our role with strangers as well. I forgot I was listening to I Love the hidden Brain. And there was a psychologist that did all this research on a train about our interactions with strangers on a train and followed the different train rides and how different it made people when you actually engaged. Because you have no idea what another human is carrying in the milliseconds before they enter your presence. But you have the power to make. Even if it's a small interaction, let's say it's at the grocery store, let's say you're walking down the sidewalk. You don't know if that moment of mattering, that millisecond of mattering is exactly what they needed to make it through the next minute of their life, let alone the next day. And there are story after story. Like it is a moment like this when somebody noticed me, when somebody just helped me. When this is the kindness of strangers. Like it's not always mattering doesn't always, in fact, I would say often doesn't come from the people that we expect it to, the people in our immediate world, our friends, our family, all of that, because we get too comfortable with each other. But when, when you know that like I. I'm flying all the time and every airport Has a story. Every trip that I take, I'm like, okay, here's another airport story. Here's another story. Just there's a bazillion of them just watching how human beings treat each other. And there was this mom on a flight and I was struggling. The baby was crying. It was a really long flight and she was just struggling with everybody. And I'm like, if you trust me, I can either help your stuff or I can hold this. You're doing a great job. This is really hard. I cannot imagine traveling with a baby and a toddler. And she literally just broke down. She just sobbing and she's like, thank you for. Because I knew at that moment she's feeling like a bad mom. Like, she's feeling like she can't handle it. I'm like, it is. You're doing everything you can. And we're all standing around watching you struggle. And it just took that. It didn't change. The baby still cried and the two year old was still grumpy. And it wasn't a smooth flight, but it was a lot better because the mom entered it better because of someone else, because of me at that moment. And that's not because I'm such this extraordinary person. Everybody has the power. We underestimate the power of something as simple as a smile or eye contact or just listening to somebody vent about what happened with their flight and missing luggage. And people don't need you to solve a lot of what they're saying. They just need to feel heard and validated. So, yes, I think we can absolutely, at any moment, choose to matter. Choose to create the conditions of mattering for somebody else. And in turn, you are creating those. It's reciprocal. You're creating it for yourself because you made yourself valuable. You made yourself needed and appreciated. Does that change their life? Does it save their life? I. You can't say that, but you also can't say when and where. Just like all of a sudden you feel like you don't matter. The same moments add up for all of a sudden you feel like, you know what? I'm really glad I showed up today. So. So I don't underestimate moments and I don't underestimate the time, the very short time we have with people.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, I think what you're saying is what a lot of people don't understand is just like we lose mattering in these small actions that take it away. Yeah, it's the small actions that build it back. So my example is my. My wife is a primary care provider. And she loses a lot of her energy because she spends her whole day caring for other people. And so all, you know, her action of feeling like she matters is just getting to vent to me about what. What happened right in her day. And that's really a small action by. By me doing it. But. And when people ask me the question, what can a parent do to make a child feel like they matter? I always say it's the same thing you said, like the first minute that you walk into the room in the morning or when you get home, don't ask them about their homework. Don't ask them if they got their chores done right. Look at them smiling because it makes them realize that they are the most important thing in your life.

[Angela Meyers]

100. And I would say, I would carry that out, John, and say that goes for anybody. If you had one quick in, what do you call it, anecdote or one quick jab of the vaccine for not feeling like you matter, it would be presence. And it said, I was listening to a TED talk last week, new science out of Harvard on occupancy, filling it with things that make us feel all of those things, sad and stressed and anxious and all of that. But that can be cured with. They were saying 1 to 10 minutes of presence every day. I would say it's more Malcolm Gladwell's Blink. 10, 10 to 20 seconds of presence every day. And so by giving your presence deliberately, and it requires deliberateness, it is. Our brains are wiring different because we're in such a busy, distracted world and on top of our mindlessness. But we need to be mindful of mattering. Mindfulness absolutely is a great body of research we can go to. But we've got to attach mattering to mindfulness because it isn't just minding our own business or minding what our goals are, mining what's going to make us feel better. The ultimate act of making us feel better is to leave someone else better off than you found them. That is the greatest way. It's like a straight shot of dopamine when you know, and we do that not through a grand act, not through performing a feat. It is through a simple act of presence. Notice, acknowledge, value, help, smile, inspire. Look into the eyes of another human being because that in every aspect is saying to them, you matter. You are worth me stopping my mind wandering. And you are worth it. And what is spectacular is the things you will learn, the insights you will give. Even if it is a person that is irritating you at the airport, it is that person is Put in your pathway to teach you something. If not patience or empathy or whatever, you. We build those things that make us not only good human beings, but strong, powerful, impactful human beings. We build them in many moments. I even hate saying moments, because it doesn't take 60 seconds. It can take 2 seconds, 3 seconds, 4 seconds to get to that part of our brain. And it changes everything.

[Jonathan]

Angela, since you brought it up, the last thing I want to talk about is social media. So over the past three, four weeks, Meta has undergone a huge trial out in California. And there are many things that I've seen there that have been quite disturbing. One of them being the filters.

[Angela Meyers]

Yep.

[Jonathan]

That they knew kids under 13 were using millions of them. Yet they not only even after he was told by 18 scientific experts not to do it, they leaned into it even more because they were trying to up the consumption to over 45 minutes a day. But then I start looking at the other targeting that they were trying to do to kids. But if we look at this even beyond kids, do you think online visibility increases or decreases felt significance?

[Angela Meyers]

I think that technology is a mirror and it will advance whoever the human is. So you can fake that for a little bit and you can try to get away with a Persona online. But I think the greatest compliments that I ever get about social media is you're exactly like I thought you would be. You're exactly like who you are. As if that's a surprise. And now I take that as a badge of honor. And I think when you enter that space feeling like you are there to hit a number, or you are there to compete, or you are there for a metric, or you are there to do anything but matter, truly matter. Just get attention, negative or positive, that it's going to lead to emptiness, that you might have success, you might be an influencer or whatever, but it's an empty. That's why I keep going back to my Jim Collins dilemma. Is success in the way we measure it, in the way we promote it, is that the opposite of significance? Because if you go there as an amplifier of who you are and truly who you are, then it amplifies your life. So when I look at what social media has done, I am here with you. What a great honor. Literally, what a great honor. When in any other hemisphere would I be able to connect with you? And now to be able to talk to you and then hopefully as we continue to talk, call you a friend, a real friend. I don't see any difference between in real life and online. Some of my Deepest, most prolific humans in my life. I actually, Gordon is a perfect example. We're writing a book and I'm trying to get him to the US but he won't come. But I don't know when I'll meet him. I literally don't know when I'll meet him. And I've probably told him more than I've told some of my colleagues. I work for a decade. So I think when we start seeing technology not as anything other than an amplifier and a magnifier of our humanity, then we're in trouble and it doesn't matter. Like I would say, my social media, because I've been writing has gone way down, but I'm finding deeper ways to engage with people. Like, I've never been on TikTok, my social media accounts got hacked. My identity was stolen and auctioned off by Rent with a ransom. I didn't pay the ransom, so they erased. So I had to build from starting a year and a half ago, build from ground zero. And I thought my life, I really went through a really bad thing. Oh, my God, who am I? And I'm like, I'm exactly who I've always been. It may have less numbers. I may not have 25 years of content out there because they took all my content, but I know who I am. And I've been that person consistently enough that it's been a joy building back up my community because I didn't look at, like, my numbers or I did 25 years of content that I put in that completely. I literally started at zero pieces of content. All my Instagram, all, everything. So it has been a lesson. It's been a humbling experience. Experience that I did get hacked because it makes you really think about, do I really feel the closest relationships on Instagram? Do I need to dance on TikTok or be. No. My goal is to advance this message. And I know I could be doing it in better ways, but it is who I am. There's nothing different about talking to you if you were sitting in my living room or I just think authenticity is a rarity online and people, because they want to matter so much, and I get that, that they have conditional mattering and it's empty at the end of the day.

[Jonathan]

So I unfortunately went through something similar to what you did. Passion Struck has quite a lot of downloads and people look, especially on Apple now, and they go, why are your likes not higher and right? What most people don't realize is at one point I had 20,000 likes.

[Angela Meyers]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

And then I had an entity in India start posting one star reviews non stop. They were posting like 50, 60, 70, and they started to come to me saying that they wanted tens of thousands of dollars to stop.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes.

[Jonathan]

And so I went to Apple and asked them to intervene.

[Angela Meyers]

Did you?

[Jonathan]

I didn't pay them. I went to Apple and Apple put a stop to it. But they said, unfortunately, the way we're going to have to do this is we're going to have to take you to zero.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes. Yes.

[Jonathan]

It has been brutal because to build it back, it took forever to reach there and now it's a slow thing. But I wasn't going to sacrifice my soul for that. So I didn't. And I have to tell you one other thing is I had Jim Collins booked

[Angela Meyers]

my life.

[Jonathan]

And I was excited because I wanted to talk to him about this topic and unfortunately he just canceled.

[Angela Meyers]

Oh.

[Jonathan]

Because he's back on.

[Angela Meyers]

And you have to tell me when because I've got to know if he thinks about that. So you asked the opposite of significant. And the reason we have so few people finding and living a life of significance is because they're so damn successful. Which is the second line of good to great.

[Jonathan]

Well, Angela, it's been such a joy to have you here today and it's one of those rare conversations that I get to talk to someone who is as passionate about the topic as I am. So thank you so much for joining. It was such an honor.

[Angela Meyers]

Oh my gosh, Jonathan, you have not been told today you matter what you're doing. Keep building and keep being you. I'm so honored to be in this conversation with you, to be doing this work with you. And we have a mission. We still have work to do. So I can't wait for your book and I cannot wait for the conversations to come. So thank you and to all your community and go make somebody's day. My kindergartners say be somebody. Like that's my call for today. Be somebody. So thank you very much.

[Jonathan]

And I forgot to ask Angela, where is the best place for the audience to learn more about you, your books, your children's book. You gotta hold it up because you've

[Angela Meyers]

got a great publishers, but it's called M is for mattering.

[Jonathan]

And I understand your son is the artist.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes. I've got to show you. Look at this. Look at these beautiful illustrations. I know I'm biased. I know I'm totally biased, but he is. Yes.

[Jonathan]

He did such a great job.

[Angela Meyers]

Did an amazing job. It about killed us as a relationship to do this together. But it was a learning experience because working with an artist is different than working with an illustrator. So I get that now because everything that I needed to edit was like taking his work. And he said it was like taking a chisel to it. To the point he's. I don't even want my name on the book anymore because I never thought about that. He's an artist. Like, as I'm a writer, taking and chiseling words that I have, like, an illustrator creates the pictures for your words. An artist creates art. And trying to match that up was a huge learning experience. But. Yes. So just message me. So if you literally type in, you matter, Angela, you'll get to all my stuff. But I'm Angela Meyers everywhere.

[Jonathan]

So on the platform MMA I E R S. Yes.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes. So reach out. And again, so grateful for you. I'm just so grateful to Gordon for connecting us. Like, I've known about you and been in your realm and for a long time, and to be able to talk to you and see your passion and see your commitment to this mission, it just makes me even more excited to do better.

[Jonathan]

Thank you so much, John.

[Angela Meyers]

Yes. Bye.

[Jonathan]

Bye.

[John Miles]

That brings us to the end of today's conversation with Angela Myers. What stood out most to me is this.

[Jonathan]

We often think that the biggest challenges

[John Miles]

we face are external. Too much work, too much stress, too many demands. But what Angela makes clear is something much deeper. That beneath so many of those struggles is a quiet, often invisible experience. That feeling that we don't matter. And when that feeling takes hold, we don't just disengage from work. We disconnect from ourselves. We begin to question our worth. We start shrinking our voice. And over time, we lose sight of

[Jonathan]

who we really are.

[John Miles]

But the opposite is also true. Because when someone feels like they matter, everything changes. They show up differently, they engage differently, they live differently. And that's what makes this idea so powerful. Because mattering isn't something reserved for a few people. It's something we can create. And how we show up and how we listen and how we make others feel seen. And that insight leads directly into our next conversation. Because if today's episode is about understanding why you matter, next week we explore how to reconnect with the parts of yourself that may have been hidden along the way. I'm joined by, number one, New York Times bestselling author Kayla Shaheen. In this conversation, we dive into the relationship between shadow work and light work and what it means to integrate both. We explore why so many of us carry hidden emotional weight from earlier in life and how to show up more fully and authentically in your life. If Angela Meyers helps us understand the importance of mattering, Kayla Shaheen helps us understand how to reconnect with the parts of ourselves that make that mattering possible,

[Jonathan]

you won't want to miss it.

[Kayla Shaheen]

Becoming aware of the inner voices within you and what they're doing or what function they have in yourself, and then striving for wholeness which is found in the present moment. If you're aware of all your senses here and now, then you can show up more presently and consciously versus if you're not feeling your senses and your mind is somewhere else and you're striving for perfection. And that really takes you outside and into a liminal place that doesn't exist but we're creating on our minds.

[John Miles]

If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who might need it, leave a five star rating or review

[Jonathan]

on Apple podcasts or Spotify and pre

[John Miles]

order the Mattering of fact coming October 6th. Until next time. Remember, you don't have to earn your worth. You don't have to prove your value. You already matter. The question is, will you start living like it? I'm John Moore Miles and you've been passion struck.