Summary

In this episode, Andy welcomes Jen Fisher, author of Hope Is the Strategy: The Underrated Skill That Transforms Work, Leadership, and Wellbeing. In project management circles, we often hear the phrase "hope is not a strategy." Jen challenges that assumption, arguing that real hope is not wishful thinking at all. Instead, it's a practical cognitive process that can help leaders navigate uncertainty, pressure, and change.

In the discussion, Jen explains how hope requires three elements: clear goals, multiple pathways to reach them, and the agency to believe we can influence outcomes. You'll also hear her personal story of realizing she was languishing under constant performance pressure, and how a candid conversation with her boss sparked the beginning of a healthier and more hopeful way of working. Along the way, Jen shares practical tools such as possibility journaling, energy ledgers, and hope spotting. She also explains why vulnerability can be a leadership superpower and how simple language shifts can turn hope killers into hope builders.

If you're leading teams and projects under constant pressure and looking for practical ways to sustain both performance and wellbeing, this episode is for you!

Sound Bites

"How would I describe myself? I'm a hope dealer."
"Hope is not flimsy. It's not whimsical."
"Real hope actually requires action."
"What drives hopelessness is feeling like there's nothing you can do."
"Hope is the belief that tomorrow can be better than today."
"67% of managers said that they've never been trained in how to manage other people. We put humans in charge of other humans, but we give them very little skill and training in how to lead."
"You can perform when you're languishing, but the question is really why should we or why would we want to."
"For the first time in my professional life, I actually felt seen and heard and valued."
"Toxic positivity only makes people feel worse."
"Possibility journaling is really thinking about what might be possible here."
"Vulnerability is proof that you're human."
"When people are feeling uncertain, they want to connect to somebody that feels human."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction
01:45 Start of Interview
02:00 What Hope Is Not: Clearing Up the Misconceptions
03:45 What Real Hope Actually Requires
05:42 Agency and the Feeling of Hopelessness
06:24 Burnout vs. Hopelessness: Is There a Difference?
07:55 Wellbeing Intelligence: The Leadership Skill We're Missing
11:44 Languishing: That Gray Space Between Fine and Flourishing
14:15 The Hidden Cost of Time Pressure on Creativity
17:00 Breaking Through the High-Functioning Facade
20:15 Setting Boundaries as a Recovering People Pleaser
24:03 Practical Tools: Possibility Journal, Energy Ledger, and Hope Spotting
29:15 Vulnerability as a Leadership Superpower
33:46 Hope Killers and Hope Builders: The Language of Hope
38:00 The Hope Audit and the Hope Strategist Toolkit
39:33 Applying Hope at Home and as a Caregiver
41:30 Where to Learn More About Jen
41:26 End of Interview
41:54 Andy Comments After the Interview
45:18 Outtakes

Learn More

You can learn more about Jen and her work at Jen-Fisher.com.

For more learning on this topic, check out:

Episode 462 with Margie Warrell. Part of Jen's message in the book is the importance of agency—of believing that you're not a victim and that you have options. Margie is a fierce advocate for how to take action when you're feeling hopeless. I highly recommend her work.
Episode 448 with Marie-Hélène Pelletier. It's an engaging discussion about burnout and resilience, and a fantastic follow-up to this discussion with Jen.
Episode 396 with Thomas Curran. It's an episode on perfectionism, and I think you'll find it an excellent follow-up to this discussion as well.

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Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast!

Talent Triangle: Power Skills

Topics: Leadership, Wellbeing, Burnout, Hope, Resilience, Vulnerability, Boundaries, Team Culture, Employee Engagement, Languishing, Psychological Safety, Workplace Performance

The following music was used for this episode:

Music: Imagefilm 034 by Sascha Ende License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Music: Tuesday by Sascha Ende License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license