Hardship, Resilience & Competing at the Highest Level | Ken Rideout

Summary

Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin

Episode: Hardship, Resilience & Competing at the Highest Level | Ken Rideout

Release Date: April 29, 2026
Host: Dr. Andy Galpin
Guest: Ken Rideout

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Overview

In this profoundly raw and inspiring episode, Dr. Andy Galpin sits down with Ken Rideout—author, elite endurance athlete, and storyteller—to explore a journey marked by adversity, addiction, and redemption, culminating in world-class athletic achievement after age 40. The discussion weaves through the lessons of suffering, building toughness, the psychology of competition, the process of personal transformation, and how the lessons from sports can be translated to any life endeavor. Ken’s story is a vivid testament to resilience, striving, and the value found on “the other side of hard.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ken’s Backstory: From Hardship to Elite Athlete

• Early Life and Adversity

  • Grew up in tough, violent circumstances (01:49)
  • Early financial and career successes followed by a decade-long battle with drug addiction (00:14, 39:05)
  • Redemption through endurance sports begun in his late 30s and success in his 40s and 50s

• Quote:

  “The only things that have been fulfilling to me as a person, as a man, have come with suffering and struggling.” – Ken Rideout (00:00, 40:37)

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2. Mindset & Suffering: The Lure and Lessons of Pain

• Seeking Challenge Instead of Comfort

  • Describes a path away from a “mediocre road,” realizing fulfillment only came with struggle (00:00, 40:37)
  • “I had tried the mediocre road in life and it didn’t pay very well…it wasn’t very fulfilling. The only things that have been fulfilling…came with suffering and struggling.” (40:37)

• Transmuting Suffering

  • Suffering is both emotional and physical; it shuts out the world, removes distractions, and creates a singularity of focus (42:53, 44:13)
  • Finds liberation in the self-imposed challenge and the process of pushing physical and mental limits

• Running as Redemption

  • Running started as a coping mechanism during recovery from addiction and evolved into competitive excellence (52:23)
  • “When I started living a life of discipline and goal setting and enjoying the suffering, I found moments of peace.” (40:37)

• Endurance Experience

  • Entered a 155-mile ultra in Mongolia with four weeks' notice, no ultra background—a case study in choosing hard intentionally (05:34, 10:18)
  • “There’s almost some salvation in [physical suffering]. There’s nothing noble about sleeping uncomfortably. … But I’m comfortable with physical suffering.” (18:21)

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3. Race Stories: Mongolia Ultra and Mental Tactics

• Preparation and Execution

  • Minimal ultra prep: “How many ultras had you done?”—“Zero.” (10:05)
  • Relied on cumulative mileage and grit, not training specificity (12:05)
  • Biggest concern pre-race? Sleeping in a tent, not 150-mile run (17:36, 18:21)

• Noteworthy Race Anecdotes

  • Used psychological tactics on competitors:

    “I never get tired and I feel fucking great today.” (04:04)

  • Emphasized perceived effort over data: “Everything with me is never heart rate. It’s all perceived effort.” (12:05)
  • Perseverance through discomfort: severe chafing, sleep deprivation, fuel deficits (30:00, 31:03)

• Psychological Warfare

  • Creating self-motivation through manufactured rivalries:

    “The dirty fuel is…creating enemies. I’m telling myself everyone’s trying to kill me and I’m gonna kill them. …I don’t think I have a lot of [enemies], but in my mind I create this whole universe of people that are trying to get me.” (76:24)

• Competitive Insight

  • Winning the Mongolia race despite physical suffering:

    “I will die before I let someone win. No chance. This is a race to the death. ... Not winning, hurting, suffering – that’s where meaning is.” (37:20)

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4. Detailed Breakdown: Pain, Suffering, and Mental Strategy

• What “Hurting” Means

  • Describes depletion: severe physical pain, emotional distress, relentless doubts (29:23)
  • Chafed skin, burning, raw shoulders, sleep deprivation—suffering becomes total (30:02-31:03)
  • “The suffering is all-encompassing…emotional, physical. When I say emotional, I mean you’re agonizing over, am I going too fast? Am I going to make it?” (44:13)

• 50/50 Commitment

  • “49% of you wants to quit…I just need 1% more says go.” (100:14)

• On Quitting and Grittiness

  • Won races after mentally quitting—let the body ‘finish the job’ (64:36, 64:54)
  • “I’ve quit many races in my mind and then forced my body to keep going until I broke the tape.” (64:54)

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5. Addiction, Recovery, and Rebuilding Identity

• Battling Addiction

  • 10 years to get clean, at least 15 attempts, admits many were “half-assed” (50:56-51:00)
  • “Happy, healthy people don’t do drugs…When you are doing those kind of drugs you’re really sabotaging your own dopamine and reward system.”
  • Pivoted from using drugs for escape to using suffering, discipline, and running as a “noble cause” (44:13, 49:00)

• From Self-Punishment to Purpose

  • Initially running was self-punishment, then became a channel for self-development (51:43)

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6. Competitive Mindset: Why Winning Matters

• Psychological Drivers

  • Winning as compensation for insecurity, past loss, and the void left by addiction (53:45)
  • “Maybe the winning filled some of that feeling like I was a winner, kind of made up for some of those insecure feelings that led me to my addiction in my first place.” (53:45)

• Ambition vs. Confidence

  • Was always ambitious, but toughness was learned, not innate (56:15)
  • Forced himself to seek uncomfortable situations and learned that “toughness” comes from facing fear head-on (56:15-58:26)

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7. Experience, Tactics, and Coaching

• Strategy and Intuition in Racing

  • Relies heavily on race intuition, not data (26:34), employing tactical surges and psychological cues
  • Example from a half marathon: sensing competitor’s weakness and exploiting it through tiny surges (66:12-69:22, 70:05)

• “Train like you can’t win. Compete like you can’t lose.”

  • Outworks everyone in training out of fear, competes with manufactured ‘dirty fuel’ but seeks cleaner motives with age (76:23)

• Building Toughness

  • Toughness can be cultivated with deliberate exposure to adversity, not just innate (56:15, 58:26)
  • Advice to his kids: “You gotta get your body in front of his body. You might bump into him…You have to learn how to do something scared. I’m scared too.” (56:15)

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8. Adversity, Failure, and the Power of Consistency

• Failure as a Strength

  • Setbacks became the raw material for future success (117:35)
  • “Every single setback that I’ve had in my life, including my addiction, has become a strength.” (117:36)

• Life Lessons Beyond Sport

  • Even addiction and being fired (for standing up to a bully) led to better opportunities (117:07-118:11)
  • No external measure—money, status, achievement—heals internal voids. Fulfillment is found in struggle and growth (118:19-118:38)

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9. Actionable Takeaways: Toward Resilience, Change, and “Normal” Listeners

• If You’re Not Extreme

  • No one needs to run ultras to benefit—start small:

    “How about you start with like a one mile walk?... If you can do that, maybe you add some weight and do a rucking backpack…for the people that don’t do that, they’re missing out on a key component.” (84:00)

• Discipline as Freedom

  • Elliot Kipchoge quote: “A man without discipline is a man with no freedom. Because when you have discipline, you’re free to do what you want the rest of the day.” (87:13)

• Routine and Baseline

  • 70 miles a week as a personal baseline; prioritizing running for mental, not just physical, health (89:24, 89:47)
  • Found peace in uncompromising consistency, not optimal training plans (90:49)

• Getting Started—General Advice

  • “Take responsibility for yourself. No one can tell you what you should eat. No one can tell you, you have to exercise. … If you don’t eat healthy and exercise regularly, you’re not going to live as long or as healthy a life period.” (84:00)
  • Effort, not perfection, is the differentiator: “Don’t stress that. Just make sure you’re continuing to move the ball down the field.” (139:38)

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10. Coaching, Mentoring, and Impact

• Helping Others as True Reward
  • “There is no greater reward than being of service to other people.” (126:57)
  • Shares candidly with kids and young athletes about setbacks, honesty, resilience, and reframing failure as learning (124:41–127:00)

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11. Camaraderie, Suffering & Memories

• The Value of Shared Difficulty
  • The most meaningful memories: “It’s the campfire…suffered all this time, and that’s the part you laugh at 10 years later.” (133:41)
  • “After the fact, I romanticize the suffering. But in the moment…” (132:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Suffering

  "Participating isn’t hard. Competing is hard. Trying to win is hard…everything in your life that’s worth having is hard."
  – Ken Rideout (07:45)

• On Motivation

  “Everyone can say they have this idea that ‘I’m going to win or I’m going to die trying’ until they start to get to the dying part.”
  – Ken Rideout (64:36)

• On Winning

  “I don’t think I’m special…but what I did on that day was like someone else was executing shit for me. Everything went right.”
  – Ken Rideout (10:00, 10:42)

• On Recovery & Addiction

  “Of all the things I’ve won, getting sober is by far my proudest accomplishment because that was so hard.”
  – Ken Rideout (44:13)

• On Raising Kids & Mentoring

  “If I’m proud of anything I’ve imparted on my kids…it’s empathy. For as tough as I might come across, I think I’m very empathetic.”
  – Ken Rideout (58:28)

• On Experience and Learning

  “You have to get comfortable with losing too. ... Did you learn something when you did that? ... Champions realize they can process that.”
  – Ken Rideout (113:24)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Ken’s Unconventional Story: 00:00–03:00
• Racing Mongolia, Motivation & Strategy: 04:00–13:00
• Ultra Preparation, Suffering in Racing: 13:00–23:00
• Physical Discomfort and Pain Details: 29:00–32:00
• Addiction, Suffering, Running as Redemption: 39:00–44:00
• Competition Mindset and Tactics: 53:00–77:00
• Effort, Toughness & Advice to Listeners: 83:50–89:00, 139:30–143:53
• Failure and Success, Real-Life Lessons: 117:00–121:00
• Camaraderie, Coaching, Impact: 124:41–134:33
• Actionable Marathon Tips: 148:17–151:28

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Closing Thoughts & Practical Advice

• Success is Built on Suffering and Consistency:
  Try harder and “move the ball downfield” every week—don’t let the pursuit of perfect planning keep you from taking action.

• Fuel Early, Fuel Often:
  For first-time marathoners, hydrate and eat before you’re hungry or thirsty, and save caffeine for late in the race (148:17).

• You Don’t Need Perfection or Talent to Start:
  Progress begins with responsibility for yourself: effort, discipline, and willingness to be uncomfortable.

• The Journey is Not Linear:
  There are constant detours, setbacks, and failures—but these are the source of real strength.

• If You Want Something, Try Harder:
  As Andy summarizes, "More effort tends to win. ... Always, we’ve found, when people try harder, it translates into more" (103:40).

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“Everything you want is on the other side of hard.” – Ken Rideout

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Transcript

[A]

I had tried the mediocre road in life and it didn't pay very well, meaning it wasn't very fulfilling. The only things that have been fulfilling to me as a, as a person, as a man has had come with suffering and struggling.

[B]

The science and practice of enhancing human performance for sport, play and life. Welcome to perform. I'm Dr. Andy Galpin. I'm a professor and scientist and the executive director of the Human Performance center at Parker University. Today I'm speaking with Ken Rideout. Ken is an author, elite endurance athlete, and a tremendous storyteller. In this conversation, you're going to learn a lot and probably at most be incredibly inspired. Ken's journey from really tough circumstances as a child to early career success, making millions of dollars and falling into a decade long battle with drug addiction, and coming out of all that breaking records in endurance sports and having a successful life is as inspirational as anything I've ever been a part of. I was lucky to get an early copy of his book. I read the entire thing almost. I saved the last couple of pages till today in one sitting. Ken is different than anyone I've ever had on Perform. And so you're going to learn a lot of tactical stuff if you're into endurance racing and running, but you're going to walk away entertained, I guarantee you that. And also incredibly inspired. The lessons he imparted are valuable to all of us, regardless of whether you'll run a race in your life now or ever in the future. I found it valuable. I know you'll get a ton of this as well. So please enjoy today's conversation with Ken Rideout. Mr. Ken Rideout, it is a huge pleasure to have you. This is a very special episode for many reasons. First, I've never had anyone even remotely close to you on the show and I think within about three minutes anyone listening is going to understand exactly what I mean.

[A]

Well, thank you for having me. It's a huge honor to be on such a prominent show. And like I said to you earlier, I'm sure this will be the least technical conversations you've ever had on the Perform podcast because I'm going to disappoint everyone with my lack of information about heart rate, all my training metrics, but I can tell you perceived effort. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Well, you're going to give us a lot of information and a lot of inspiration, for sure. I read your entire book, except for the last five pages in one day.

[A]

Yeah, the best.

[B]

I intentionally did not read the last five pages. I actually wanted to save it till after our conversation. Okay, so I don't know how your story ends.

[A]

Oh, my God, I love the. I think the last five pages are the best. Like, of course, I sent that last. That last chapter when I was writing the book to my wife. True story. And I'm sitting in my office, she's sitting on the kitchen, and I thought I heard her, like, sniffling and sobbing. And I come out, I'm like, yo, what's up? Did you like it? And she's like, oh, my God, I know how the story ends. And I was still captivated. And I was like, perfect. And I told my editor and he was like, well, if they cry, they buy. So you've obviously hit on something, so you're doing the right. I love the last five pages, really, to me, drives everything home. There's so many lessons in that.

[B]

I teared up many times reading your book. Like, very, very. You and I have an insanely similar background. Like, we'll probably discuss later.

[A]

But in a lot of ways, I'm sorry to hear that.

[B]

No, no, no. In many ways it's polar opposite, and in many, it's very, very similar. But I actually wanted to start today with my introduction to you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so I'm going to tell you this story and then I'm going to let you tell everyone else your side of this.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

So I remember actually probably sitting in this very room a couple of years ago or so, and our mutual friend, who's the third body in this room here, Rob, told me it came up somehow. He's like, I have this crazy friend. And he goes, now picture everything about this head. You in this, like, thick Boston accent. I'm like, okay. And he's like, I've got this crazy friend. He's running 150 mile race in Mongolia. It's like 100 miles in, runs up next to some guy, looks at him, just goes, you know, the funny thing is I never get tired and then bolts off and the guy falls out and quits the race or something like that. So first of all, did. Did Rob lie to me about that story or is that actual.

[A]

That's true. I was racing in Mongolia. There were two guys who were super competitive with me. One guy, a Swiss mountaineer guy, Reinhold. Hugo or Hugo Reinhold. I forget how. Which one comes first, but just a superstar athlete. And he was leading by about 12 minutes. We're on a 50 mile stage. And then there was David Danu, who was like a Israeli soldier, like just a real tough guy, little tiny guy, but just A savage. And I just ran up next to David Danu. You weren't supposed to have headphones, but I had one headphone in that I had been squirreling away with a charge. Cause I didn't have like a charger or anything. And I was listening to music. Cause I hadn't. You had to have a phone with you in case you got. I mean, there was no cell phone reception, but you had to have it for whatever reason. And I was listening to music, trying to get myself motivated on super low volume. And I ran up next to him. I'm like, hey, David, you know something? I never get tired and I feel fucking great today. Like, let's. Let's do this. And we're friendly. And he didn't drop out. But I looked back a few minutes later, we were running through. And we were running through fields, like pastures. Like there was uneven footing. It was. It was so hard in hindsight. And I looked back and he was walking and he'd been a. He's a competitor. He came in second, I think, overall in this race. And I look back and he was walking and it was just me and Reinhold off for like the rest of the race. And then it was extreme. I mean, that day I won that stage by 90 minutes and ended up winning the race. But yeah, that's pretty much accurate part of the story.

[B]

You just jumped over 150 miles through Mongolia.

[A]

155 miles.

[B]

155.

[A]

Six day stage race, self supported, meaning you had to carry everything that you needed, plus some mandatory safety equipment. And they provided a tent every night and water. So, like the stages were predetermined. And so it was like 21 miles, 28, maybe 25, 50, 26. And then the last one was like five or six miles.

[B]

So you do one stage per day. You sleep at night, you wake up, and then everyone starts at the same time or.

[A]

And to be honest with you, I think if it was straight through and just like a survival endurance thing, it might have been easier because I did not want to hang out in the camp. And to me, I was just wasting time. I'm like, I don't want to hang out in this damn camp. I'm starving to death. I'm burning like 8 to 10,000 calories a day, and I only have 2,500 calories with me. And you have to manage this every day. But, you know, it's like anything else. You learn so many tricks along the way that I didn't. I just learned so many things that people who do these races regularly? Knew do. It was part of the Racing the Planet series, which they do a bunch of races across different deserts and different rough terrain. So a lot of the people knew each other. It was funny. They all knew each other and people were like, it turns out some of them knew who I was, but they were still, like, dismissive and not, not rude to me. But I definitely didn't feel like part of the crowd. And I didn't. Probably didn't say two words to people for the first, like and a half. And then once we got to the thing and people started saying, oh, that guy is like, you know, he's. This is who that guy is. And they start. There was one guy, Killian Ryan, Irish guy who was super nice to me. His family owns Ryanair. Just, oh, wow. Just a total gentleman. And he was like, after the first day, I got killed, I was like, fourth. Came in fourth place. And Killian said to me, like, yo, those guys think that they're gonna wear you down every day. They know you're a marathoner and don't have experience with this. And I remember saying to him, like, they're gonna wear me down. No one fucking wears me down. I'm killing everyone. Even though I like, I'm gonna get killed. I was just trying to project and, like, I was almost subconsciously trying to talk myself in to the place where I knew I had to get to emotionally to, like, this was. When I say it was hard, man. It was. It's. I know it's easy to be. Oh, of course it was hard and corny and cliche, but it was hard, man, when. Participating isn't hard. Competing is hard. Trying to win is hard. And, you know, which is why the title of the book is everything you wants on the other side of hard. Because it's like, was it easy to get a PhD? Was it easy to start your own podcast? Find guests, research the guests. It's like everything in your life that's worth having is hard. And I wanted to win that race. And I knew it would be hard. And I felt foolish at times thinking, like, why did I think I could win this? I'm an idiot. I'm going to be lucky to survive. And then eventually I did. But it wasn't easy.

[B]

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[A]

Yes.

[B]

Pretty easy to tell from your personality pretty quickly. That's a big part of you, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You didn't do anything for this race?

[A]

No. I knew. I knew.

[B]

So tell me about first of all, how many ultras had you done?

[A]

0.

[B]

0. You went from the longest race of your career being 26.2.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And you 5x that?

[A]

Yeah. Marathon a day plus a 50 miler for six days.

[B]

And how many years did you prepare for that?

[A]

Four weeks.

[B]

Four weeks?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have. You have to give me more. Why the hell did you sign up for 155 mile race on four weeks notice? And how were you okay with the lack of preparation and planning?

[A]

Great questions. I had won Tokyo, the 50 and over race in Tokyo and had the best.

[B]

For the record, you're the fastest marathoner in the world over 50.

[A]

I won the World Championships at that race for 50 and over. To say I'm the fastest would imply there's not another man in the world that over 50 that can be the fastest time. On the race day. Two guys that came in second and third had both run 225. The best I'd ever run is 228. But they did some things. I did some things. Like all legal things. Obviously you can look at strategy wise tactics, strategy Exactly. They did some things tactically and I did some counter moves tactically, and I beat them both by less than a minute. Yeah, anyone who knows me knows, like, I'm not a narcissist. I don't think I'm great. I don't think I'm special. But I would say that what I did on that day was like someone else was executing shit for me. It just everything went right. And believe me, I've had races where every single thing has gone wrong. But when I heard about the race, Scott Daru, who at the time was the CEO of Equinox, former dean at Michigan Business School, and now the CEO at Ironman, just a rant. A friend connected me with him. Scott wanted to ask me questions about running in general. And I talked to him. I never met him. And I'm talking to him and he's telling me about this race. And for whatever reason, like, when people ask me, what about bad water? What about western states? I'm like, dude, the race, I don't know why I'm not. Again, there's nothing special, but it has to, like, speak to me. I heard about it and I was like, I'm winning that. I want to do that desperately. Like, the Ironman in Hawaii. I'm like, I have to go there.

[B]

Not I'm gonna do it. Like, I'm winning that right, Ironman.

[A]

I'm like, iron Man. I was like, I want to do. I want to qualify. Cause that to me was the win is qualifying. But when I started winning races in my late 40s, I never did another race, not thinking I could win in some way shape or form some capacity, whether it was the age group in a world marathon major or the Myrtle beach marathon. The day before I turned 50, I won the whole marathon in 2:30 flat. And we can come back to that. So. So Scott's telling me about the race, and I'm like, dude, I think I could win that. And he was like, you know, thought I was crazy. And he's like, email the race director. So I reached out to the American woman based in Hong Kong, and she was like, yeah, you can get in. I sent her some news clippings and stuff and said, here's my background. I would love to be involved in the race. And she was like, yo, we'd love to have you come on. And I signed up and bought the bat, bought backpacks. And I started researching it extensively, trying to figure out, like, what the hell do I need? What do I eat? I didn't even know camping Food, like freeze dried camping food. I didn't know anything about it. I had no experience hunting. I had never been camping. And I wasn't looking forward to it. Like, I'm a big baby when I travel. Like, I want to stay at the Four Seasons. Like, I don't try to pretend to be a hard guy. I'm like, no, I don't want to rough it. I've roughed it my whole first half of my life. I'm done with roughing. So I'm like thinking I start running with a backpack, trying different ones in Nashville. And I have water and towels in my backpack to simulate £20. And let me tell you something, £20 is effing heavy. Yeah, I was running. And again, everything with me is never heart rate. It's all perceived effort. So let's say at the time, and I was in shape and my rationale to signing up for the race, to come back to that part of your question, I knew that there's no way that someone had cumulatively more miles run than me. Maybe they had done different training to prepare for this endeavor. But just on a whole, I don't know how much, how many miles can your body absorb? Like, if I run more than 22 miles, like, the. It becomes like diminishing returns. The rest of the recovery takes so long, like running a race. So my rationale was, well, I know I have endurance and I know I have toughness, and I. And I know I can acquire the knowledge about what to bring, what to do. And the rest is experience. And experience counts for everything in, in marathoning, Ironman, you just don't know what you don't know. And when people are like, I've never run a marathon, but I'm going to do it under three hours. And I'm like, I don't care how good you are till you get out there and do it. It's two different conversations. Because when you do it, people like, oh man, I hit the wall here. All the things you like it, like people going to Hawaii saying, oh, so hot and so windy. I'm like, yeah, no shit. Same thing every year. Never changes. Yeah, same thing. You did exactly what everyone else did. Welcome to the fucking world. It's like, that's what it is.

[B]

Welcome to Kona.

[A]

So this is exactly what it is. It's hard. There's a reason people like. It's revered and respected and everything that goes along with it. I remember distinctly my wife driving me to the airport and being like, yo, you excited? Mongolia. And the other thing is. I love exotic travel. Like, I like doing random, weird stuff where people are like, where are you going? I'm like, yeah, I'm flying to Ulaanbaatar. And my wife's like, you excited? And I'm like, no, I'm not excited. I'm feeling. Going to the effing electric chair. I'm like, what have I done? Like, everyone, I had some sponsors. I'm like, I don't need this pressure. It's hard enough to go do it now. I know people are watching. And she's like, you signed up for this. I'm like, I know, I know. Just don't ask me if I'm happy about it. I'll be happy when it's over. And I remember walking onto the flight in Nashville, walking down the Jetway to start the journey from Nashville to Atlanta to South Korea to Ulaanbaatar. And I had, like, literally, like, a mindset shift that was almost subconscious, where I was like, oh, my God, I'm scared. I wanted to cry. Like, I had that depressing feeling like my parents just dropped me off at summer camp. And I'm like, you guys are leaving me here? And I'm, like, walking to, like, the. Walking the plank. And then I just had a mindset shift of, like, you know what? F this, I'm no victim, and I'm not going to get bullied around by anyone. And I always. I was talking to Rob Moore this morning about this. I'm like, whatever you think in your mind is the truth. If you think that you're scared and you're going to get killed, then maybe so. But if you think you can kill everyone else and you can go and dominate, then that might be true. And it's much more fun to picture yourself the hero than the, like, goat, than, like, the scapegoat or, like, the person who's gonna get, like, mashed up. So I just remember thinking, like, it's time. Let's go. It's like, get your head out of your ass and stop this moping around. And I. I didn't sleep. I just thought about the race for, like, the next 20 hours. Got to Ulaanbaatar and slept in the, like. What was the most expensive hotel but was, like, your worst nightmare?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Tiles falling off, the shower. And I'm just like, what the hell am I? And then the funny thing is, I didn't know very much. So they said, we're gonna. I thought that in the morning, we'll get up and we'll start the stage race, like, out in the desert from the city, outside of the city. Like, no, no, no. Saturday night, we're gonna bus you Saturday morning. We're gonna bus you out all day Saturday into the desert, and then you'll sleep in the tents, and then you'll get up in the morning and race. And I'm like, oh, my God, there's one extra day in the tent. I don't want to be in a tent.

[B]

The funny part is, like, growing up as a kind of an outdoorsman, a little bit, like, sleeping in a tent is very normal for me.

[A]

What's funny for you with your buddies and you got your camping equipment and your stove. I had just a backpack. I just had a sleeping bag.

[B]

Like, that would be the part that would make me the most comfortable.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And you're not worried about the 155 miles you're about to race right now? And in the book, you're complaining mostly about the tent.

[A]

Even thinking about it now, I couldn't get out of my mind. I'm like, I can't believe I'm doing this.

[B]

That part of the. Okay, I'll leave that part alone. But that's the funny part. So not only you're flying halfway across the world, literally by yourself, going where, you know, there's no cell service for the most part, you're gonna go run 150 miles, which is five times longer than anything you've ever done. You have no preparation. You don't know the course. You don't know anything about it. And your biggest concern is probably waiting in the line to board the airplane and sleeping in a sleeping bag.

[A]

100%. Can I get my bags on the overhead without getting harassed and hassled? And how is it going to be sleeping on the floor of a tent next to three other strangers, three women

[B]

from all over the world, not the death that you're. You're going to force yourself almost into. Yeah, yeah, that part's okay.

[A]

No, because that was like. I'm comfortable with, like, physical suffering. That part is like. There's almost, like, some salvation there. It's almost like a noble cause. There's nothing noble about sleeping uncomfortably. I'm a baby with sleep. I need to be in a bed. Everything has to be aligned. The temperature has to be perfect. And, dude, the first night it rained sideways. Like, at one point, I thought this tent was gonna blow away. It was just the rattling of the tent. It felt like I was on the side of Everest. And the thing was, like, just getting battered by rain. Rain was coming in the frigging tent. I was like, God, why are you doing this to me? And I got up in the morning again, no one's talking to me. I'm just going about my business. And you know those crowds, like all those people that know each other, like, hey, what's up Joe? How you doing? Haven't seen you. Oh great. Everyone's happy. Yay. We're gonn to go do an adventure. And I'm like, it's on. I'm killing all of you guys. Like I'm going to kill you guys. And sure enough, the race takes off. Dude, and we are on the gas. There is no strategy. I mean, matter of fact, typically we get to the aid station, you stop, you load up on water, you do this. I've ripping through the aid station with like four or five other guys and I'm like, as I run up, I go, yo, do we have to stop? And they're like, no, you don't have to stop. I'm like, later. Right through the aid station.

[B]

What do you probably what, eight, ten miles in before that first aid station? Something like that.

[A]

506.

[B]

506. Okay, so you don't need that much water.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

But you probably should have, right? Because you got the next 150 to pay attention to.

[A]

You want to be, yeah, you want to be fueling early and often and not get behind. But I felt so good. And then because I didn't stop, no one wanted to stop. So I was like, oh good, them. I'm going to drag everyone into the deep water and then we'll see who can swim.

[B]

Okay, look, what kind of pace are you at here? Are you running six?

[A]

We're probably just under seven minute miles. And the thing I, I, I lost my train of thought earlier when I was saying when I was training, if my normal pace is like at that stage, like seven minute miles would be like, you know, not pushing it but not taking it easy. It'd be like a sustainable effort where I could run that pace for all day. Yeah, When I put that backpack on like 8 30s was like the same effort that I was given to like run seven minutes was like 8:30 pace and I was like holy shit, I am, I'm, I'm working and I'm like barely moving, relatively speaking. So when we were running and that first day, you're fully loaded, like it doesn't get much lighter, contrary to popular belief. Like the food doesn't weigh much, you have mandatory stuff, your sleeping bag A sleeping pad, which you didn't need a sleeping pad. But, like, I had to sleep. I couldn't just not have any comfort at all. And we're just tearing. Tearing through these trails. We're running through rivers like, your shoes are soaking wet. It just. It's. It's so hard. And. But I was like, I'll relax when we get done with this stage. And then we get to about three to five miles to go, and we go up, literally up the side of a mountain. And the other two guys, the Israeli and the Swiss guy, whipped out their poles, and they're like. And I didn't have any poles, so I was like, damn it. And, I mean, they would have beat me anyway, but I was in hell. I mean, it was so steep. I'm like, we're walking, but I'm like, stopping and being like, oh, shit, how much further is this? And it's one of those ones where as you go up, you keep thinking you see the peak, and then you get to the peak and you're like, oh, my God, I'm not even halfway up here.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then at the top, you run along a ridgeline. And I mean, this is when I was like, this race is crazy. The ridgeline was so steep. I'm like, if I fall here, I might die. And it was dangerous. And I remember getting back to the. To the camp that night and saying to the person, like, dude, how did you get insurance for this race? Like, someone's going to die if you make a mistake here. I mean, we would end up doing much more dangerous stuff than the ridgeline. But. So. So after we get up and over the mountain along the ridgeline, I'm in third and I'm running, and we come down in a little depression, and there's like a dried riverbed. So I'm like, okay, no problem. You know, it's probably 100 yards across dried riverbed. Soon as I step in, it's basically a dried riverbed with, like, a thick layer of, like, cake of mud. And then as soon as you step in it and go through, you're in thick, like, clay, like, mud, and covered

[B]

in mud that will not come off your shoes.

[A]

And I gotta tell you, I hate being dirty. I hate being wet. Everything about it. I hate. I hate being uncomfortable.

[B]

City boy.

[A]

I'm like a baby crying with a dirty diaper. And I'm like, oh, my God. So I'm like, I'm not gonna fall down. I'm gonna go slower so I don't have to Fall. Boom. Right down.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Covered in mud. And when I get back, I mean, I fell down a few times and was covered in mud. People came in like they were. You couldn't even see them. All you could see was their eyes. And I get to the finish, and I'm like, oh, my God, what have I done? This sucks. Like, I can't even believe that I have to be here for five more days. And that's when the Killian Ryan was like, yo, they said they're gonna kill you. Like, super confident. I'm like, don't worry about it, Killian. Tomorrow's another day. But in my mind, I'm like, oh, my God, what have I got myself into?

[B]

You know Michael Easter? Yeah, I was.

[A]

I mean, I don't know him personally. I know he is.

[B]

Yeah. I was with him a couple weeks ago in Vegas, and he was on stage talking about. I think he spent a month or five weeks or something above the Arctic Circle or some way up there, and how he got back and got in the airplane and was washing his hands in the bathroom, and that was the first hot water he had touched in a month.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And he was like, this is just the most remarkable feeling. And he's like, typically was complaining on airplanes about the food and all that. And he's like, this is the most comfortable chair I've ever sat in my life. Hot water, just completely. I have to imagine you had a similar feeling when you got back to those camps, and you're just thinking, I don't have my four Seasons anymore, but at least I have water to wash this mud off my face.

[A]

Well, the other thing is, they gave you water, but they're like, do not waste this. What we have is what we brought with us. Do not waste the water. Showering, washing your clothes. Course I was like, get the F out of here. There was some Italian guys there who I absolutely love.

[B]

You're good at following rules. Like, yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I'm a big believer in beg for forgiveness. Never asked for permission. So one of the Italian guys, I was like, hey, buddy, what the hell was his name? Felipe or something. I'm like, hey, hold this water bottle over my head while I quickly shower. I had a little tiny drop of, like, concentrated, so. Camp soap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I would wash everything with my clothes on. Then I would take the clothes, hang them up, so at least they weren't, like, standing up by themselves by way. The. The. By the end of the week. And then I had camp clothes, so I would hang those up So I tried to keep myself, like, kind of cleaned up and, like, a little bit comfortable. But the nice thing about finishing so far ahead of the girls is I'd get to the tent and I'd be like, oh, I have the whole tent. Because the first night they were like, okay, we set up the tent. Yeah, Ken, come on in. I'm like, sleeping in the middle. It's like, it was awful. And there's rocks underneath the tent. We ended up really getting along well, the girls. So I'd get there first. I'd go underneath the tent, get all the rocks out, because the people just setting the tents up, they don't care. I'm like. I eventually went over to the Mongolian guys. I'm like, guys, you don't see all these rocks underneath. Like, at the very least, kick the big ones out of the way. So I'd get it all ready. But the nice thing is I'd get my spot set up exactly where I want it, right inside the door. So if I had to go to the bathroom, I could pop out of the tent. And it was just. It's funny, the little things that you start to appreciate when you have basically nothing. It's like when I worked in the prison, you see, the inmates would set up the cell and it would be like, if you touched anything in their cell, it would be like World War Three. They kept that thing, like, dialed in and that's had my tent is like my cell. And they call it the house in jail. Like, don't. Someone who, who went in my house. I was like, yo, don't let anyone in the house if I'm not here. That's what I would tell the girls.

[B]

So you're doing what kind of a pace for these, these 20, 25 mile stages. If you're. If your marathon is. We'll just call it 2:30. Yeah, what are these? Five hour?

[A]

Yeah, probably it. But the thing is, it's hard to even say a pace because some days were like, one day we were like hands and knees scaling a rock. Giant rock structure that took like an hour to get up. There's pictures. I have pictures posted. Google my name. In Mongolia. You'll see this one where I'm like kind of coming up climbing a rock, and they were race officials. And I go, dude, somebody is going to fall here and die. It was so steep. And there were older people there too. And I was like. I go, how did you get permission to do this? He's like, that's why it's in Mongolia, not the Us, because you would never be able to do this.

[B]

Did you happen to notice on that race if anybody else was following heart rate monitors, trying to use technology? Was anyone there or was. Do you have to just be intuitive on something like that?

[A]

I would imagine there was some guys that were super, like, tech, tech, tech and data nerds that were, like, really into it. But I mean, what. It's like, I was talking to Norman Stadler, the Ironman world champion one time, and he's. I was talking about power, power and, you know, watts on the bike. And I was like, what are you doing? He's like, no, I had a. I had a power meter sponsor, but I put tape over it because at the end of the day, I'm trying to win the race. It doesn't matter what this says. If one guy takes off up the road, I have to make a decision of who is okay. That guy, not worried about him. Okay, that guy goes up the road. I have to go with him because it's like, if he. If I can't cover this move, I'm basically making my whole bet is that he can't sustain that. I don't know what he's done for training. So when you're trying to be competitive, I think there's only so much you can do with data. Like, I mean, there are certain athletes that they just hold the same pace and it works. And it's like. But you're making a bet that the other person can't do what they're basically telling you can they can do with their early move. And it's like, do I want to bet my whole race on. On my strategy or. So there's a big difference in trying to survive versus trying to win. And when you're winning, you have to, like, you have to have some intuition to be like, okay, I need to cover this. Or at the same time, like, you'll see in the last five pages of my book, like, one guy makes a move, and I'm like, if that guy can run that pace and win, be my guest. He probably ran past me at like 5:20 pace at 3 miles. And I'm like, like, who is this guy? Like, he's in my age group, but, like, I don't know who it is. And there's only a few guys that I. That I know have a chance to win this. And he wasn't one of them. So I was like, oh, my God. Damn you. But yeah, I'm sure some of them, you know, everyone there was like. And was telling me about their ultra coaching experience. And I'm like, come on man, if you're coaching, you should be trouncing me. And you're like finishing hours after me. Come on.

[B]

I want to come back actually later and ask about kind of how you find this balance between intuition and actually data driven and coaching and things like that. I know that's part of your things, but let's keep going with, with this particular story. So you've, you've smashed through, you've got through the lake. You're, you're, you're dried up. The, you got another 50 miles the next day.

[A]

So no. So the next day is 28 miles.

[B]

Oh, easy. Nice. Soft 28.

[A]

I'm like hurting. So I'm like, all right, right. I'm not going to even look at those guys today. I'm going to just run my own pace because if I keep trying to push the pace, I'm not even going to finish.

[B]

You've said this multiple times. Like I was really hurting. I've never run a marathon or anywhere in, anywhere close. When you say hurting in a situation like that, I have to filter it. I'm like, okay, yeah, you run 150 miles. Like your hurting is not the same as my hurting. What does hurting mean at that stage? Like what is in your body? What is happening? What are you feeling that makes you go, I'm hurting right now?

[A]

Well, imagine running a 21 mile race.

[B]

Your body is not 21 miles. Like racing it.

[A]

Yes. Trying to win it. Exactly. So like that first day I was like completely depleted. I hadn't slept, I was on a red eye. And then I slept in this hotel and I ended up falling asleep at like 4 o' clock in the afternoon and waking up at like 2 in the morning. Can't go back to sleep. My circadian rhythm is like non existent. So my body is just completely shot. Then I go out to camp the next night. I've been up since two in the morning, the night before, night before and I can't sleep in the rain and I'm anxious and nervous. So by the time that first day is over, my body is just broken down and hurting.

[B]

Are you like sore sore beyond words.

[A]

My back hurts. Oh, and I'm chafed everywhere from the backpack because at this point I don't have any tape on or anything yet. I would eventually end up taping my whole body with kinesio tape and like that, that tape that's like cushioned.

[B]

Like pre wrappers.

[A]

Yeah, not pre wrapped. The stuff that's thick it's like felt on one side.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

So I'm putting strips of this thick ass tape around my waist and on my shoulders cuz it's burned like burn marks from the rub. Raw? Yeah, raw.

[B]

Rubbed raw. Your feet, your knees.

[A]

The backpack is smashing against every step against my lower back and creating swelling across like right above my waistline. And it's like I almost felt like it was like compartment syndrome looking. It was like swollen in a way where I'm like. It felt like the worst bruise you've ever had. And it looks, looked terrible. I mean, to the point where I'm like, what the F is going on? My back looks like I have leprosy. And they're like, oh no, no, it's just a heat rash. And I'm like, well, should I keep taping it? And they're like, I mean, in a perfect world you should not put your backpack on again. But we've got five days to go. And I mean, it looked, it looked terrible.

[B]

So you're one day in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You've got blisters of rashes. Rashes all over and burns. Sunburn.

[A]

No real sunburn.

[B]

Lips chapped.

[A]

Yeah, lips definitely chapped, but not like, not like crazy. I've always had like decent genetics. Like my skin doesn' really burn much. I don't get like super chapped lips like some people. I was like, but I mean, I looked like shit.

[B]

I hadn't slept. And when you said under fueled.

[A]

Oh, I mean I ate 2,500 calories and I burned at least 7,000 the first day. I mean I'm instantly, I can see I'm losing weight. Yeah.

[B]

And hydrated perfectly.

[A]

Well beyond. Cause I only had the salts that I had there. I had element with me and I had enough for like, you know, two a day.

[B]

You had like two packs of Element.

[A]

Yes, a day.

[B]

And you probably, I would have guessed, just, I don't know, dumped 7 to 10 grams at best. A third repleted 100.

[A]

Yeah. So when you're starting, you're like, oh my God, I feel like this is going to be a long day. So I was saying, like, I need to be strategic. The other thing I was saying earlier too, about experiences when people started dropping out and they started dropping off the first day and they'd be like, oh, I'm leaving. I'm like, give me that food. Like whatever they had, it wouldn't help me to carry more. So I would just eat anything I could find. People, if people weren't eating the rest of their Food. I had no pride. I was like, are you gonna eat the rest of those noodles? No, I'm gonna throw them. I'll have those. I was like, I'm. I'm in like combat mode. I'm like, I don't care if. What germs you have. Give me those damn noodles. I was eating, I ate a pack of. I don't even like sardines, guys. Like, I'm. Throw these sardines away. I'm like, I know sardines are rich in calories and loads of fats. Yeah. I was like, give me those damn great, great strategies. Oh my God.

[B]

So you didn't put anything in, in the preparation for that stuff? You didn't think about the food?

[A]

I just knew I needed like three meals a day. So I grabbed three packs of these, like, what is it called? Backpacker's Friend or. You know, it's one of that.

[B]

Was it like you didn't have any strategy for macronutrients?

[A]

I was a complete idiot. Like, I didn't know anything and I didn't really care. I was just like, I'm gonna grid it out.

[B]

Do you remember what you took food wise? I actually wanna know.

[A]

Yeah. So like in the morning I would eat like the. It was like an mre. So it had like scrambled eggs and sausage in it, let's say. And you pull hot water in, maybe

[B]

some potatoes or something like that.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So it'll be like some kind of breakfast thing. Then for lunch it might be like Thai noodles with freeze dried trick chicken. And it was actually good. Like, I like them. It was just like, you wouldn't eat them normally because they're loaded with sodium and all this other shit, but that's intentionally. Yeah. And then for dinner it might be like macaroni and cheese or beef stroganoff, like I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I got it. Okay. So basic. I mean, these are. I've eaten more packs of these in my life than I can count.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like this is what you do when you go hunting, right?

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

So you didn't take anything else besides those?

[A]

No, no. Oh, no, sorry. I might have like a few bars. Like, you know, random. Like.

[B]

Right. Really?

[A]

No.

[B]

150 calories is really helpful.

[A]

Exactly. I had a couple meal replacement bars and I forget the brand, but they were like very, very dense and they didn't taste good. But I would force them down during the stage.

[B]

And then you're just relying on the aid stations to just grab.

[A]

All they had was water.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You didn't even have. Okay.

[A]

It was just water.

[B]

So traditional ultras, they're going to have peanut butter and jelly and.

[A]

Oh, no. This is a survival race, man. They didn't give you anything except kept water.

[B]

It would have been impossible for you to run with enough water that you needed.

[A]

So the aid station would be so you could load up with water. So. And even that, I had like two. I had a flask in the back, like with the hose on it, whatever that's called. Yeah. And I know when I tell you, I know nothing about ultra running and camping. Nothing. So I had the, the camelback and I had some collapsible little water bottles, two of them that would fit right here. They were small, they were like, you know, 12 ounces. So I would run through, load up, you know, and be in and out. I was never at the aid station, like hanging.

[B]

So These are every five miles, five to ten.

[A]

They were really spread out on the 50 mile stage. Like if you covered that stage in the book, if you read about that, like the guy, the guy who was leading with me, the Swiss guy, he almost dropped dead. He like had to stop and like sit down in the desert. And I was like, man, we gotta get to the next aid station. And they were just so far apart, hard, and he couldn't make it. And they have an aid truck. A truck came and eventually gave him first aid and he eventually walked into camp. Dude, it was like a movie. I'm. I've been in camp for like hours, chilling, eating, relaxing. And here he comes walking in in the dark like, oh. I'm like, dude, I can't believe you made it 15 miles ago. I thought you were dead. And he's like, he wouldn't let me help him with this pack. Nothing. He's like, I don't want to drop out of the race and I gotta finish this. Tough guy stoic never talked to me.

[B]

Somebody had died the year before, right. Or the race before.

[A]

Yeah. And had to get. They had to get him out of the sand dunes with a camel. They couldn't even get the truck in there. It was so treacherous.

[B]

This sounds like an amazing race to not prepare for. So four weeks and, and no strategy.

[A]

I think if I knew what I was getting into, I might have talked myself out of it, of course.

[B]

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[A]

five mile, you see then five or six miles, like a kind of a ceremonial stage. And that's where the guy killing Ryan said to me, oh, you're winning, man. Are you going to let someone else win this stage? Take it easy. You got a 90 minute lead. You're going to have a fun day. Relax. I was like, dude, are you insane? I will die before I let someone win. No chance. This is a race to the death. You're going to bury that thing we're racing. I don't care who it is. And sure enough, the Swiss guy was like not going out without a fight. I mean, he couldn't win the race at that point, but he's like, I'm winning this stage. And I, I'm like, no, you're not. And we were drag racing and it finished into like a little, not a city, but like into the first civilization that we've seen in a little village. And it's like going through the, you know, I mean, there's streets, but it's like bombed out.

[B]

Yeah. Roads.

[A]

So we're racing through and then it finishes in this big old Genghis Khan fortress. Like a big walled, like legitimately fortress. Yeah, it was gorgeous. And I just came in there like, oh my God, I did it. I won like, you know, it's a stage Race. So I knew I had won. But crossing the line first into the fortress was like, yes, thank you, Jesus. That one. I was pretty happy when I won the world championships in Chicago in the age group. I mean, I was almost, like, emotional. Like, the relief was. I can't imagine winning a gold medal or something. And just like, I've done everything, relatively speaking, to get ready for this. And then you win. I called my wife, and I'm like, I did it. I won. I won by less than a minute. And she was like, oh, cool. I had won a bunch of age groups. I won four of the six world marathon majors. It wasn't a big deal. I just won Tokyo. I'd already won Mongolia. She's like, you know, I've won some stuff. And she's like, oh, good for you. I'm like, no, no, this was. This was. This was fucking huge. I won the big one. I won the age group world championship. She's like, what? Oh, my God. I didn't know. And I'm like, I didn't intentionally not tell her. And she's like, how happy are you? And she starts crying, and I'm like. And I almost start crying. I'm almost crying now thinking about it. I'm like, I'm so relieved that it's over. Like, I did it. And I know people listening again. It doesn't matter what you think about me. It doesn't matter what other people think of this endeavor. It only matters what I think. And to me, this was my Olympics. I was never a runner. As a kid. 10 years, 15 years before this, I was like a dead dog, loser, degenerate drug addict. And now I was a world champion at something. Okay, it was just the age group. I get it. I know it's not the limit, but to me, it mattered more than anything in the world athletically at that point. Obviously not more than my family, but to me, it was massively important. I poured my heart and soul into doing this. And now I had done it. And I was like, I can't believe I did it. It was just the relief. I mean, I feel it now. It's like, oh, thank God.

[B]

You'll hear this really consistently with people that have broken world records, won world championships, win gold medals. Very often. Often relief is the word.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not joy. It's not anything else. It is cool. And then what typically happens is what we call post school depression.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

And you come hammering down off that thing, you're nev. You just don't see that thing you thought you were going to feel.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's there and then it's gone. Why do you think for your experience, that's a worthwhile endeavor? If we know that's the end, why do we even start?

[A]

That's a good question. But I had tried the mediocre road in life, and it didn't pay very well, meaning it wasn't very fulfilling. The only things that have been fulfilling to me as a. As a person, as a man has, had come with suffering and struggling, getting sober. Being a dad is not easy. That comes with struggle. And people could say, like, some people seem to be on a frigging pleasure cruise. And they're just like, I'm the best dad and I love it. And they look like they're doing it right. And I'm, like, jealous, because to me, it takes work. Like, my default setting sometimes is to be selfish and lazy. I'm like, the kids will be like, on a Saturday afternoon, I did my run. I'm hanging. Sometimes, you know, after a long week, I'm like, I know. My wife will be like, you're just wasting time in your office. I'm like, I'm not wasting time in my office. I'm doing what I want to do. Nothing. I want to peruse the Internet, look at Twitter, and be lazy. The kids are like, dad, let's throw past us. Let's run routes. And nine times out of 10, I'll be like, yes. Once in a while, I'll be like, God, guys, I'm sorry. I have got to just sit here and be like, quiet. I'm on full speed all the time. I don't want to be. That's the only speed that I have found that I can be successful at. When I tried having balance and doing the things that I wanted to do, and left to my own devices, I found drugs as a way to cope with the emptiness and the void that was missing in my life, which was having a worthwhile endeavor. So left to my own devices, I never found peace. When I started living a life of discipline and goal setting and enjoying the suffering, I was able to find moments of peace. And more importantly, I didn't turn to drugs to find that peace. I found peace in suffering. So to me, when I. And again, I don't profess to have all the answers. This is not what I would suggest for anyone. I'm in survival mode. Like, I'm flawed, trouble trying to find the answers myself. But if you don't start the journey and get on the road towards where, like, you want to get. You don't have to know where you're going. But it all starts with discipline and hard work. You're not going to get to where you. The easy road never pays well. And the road to heaven can feel like hell. And the road to hell always feels like heaven in the beginning, but where they end are very different. Different.

[B]

I want to ask a few more questions about pain. Yeah, you said suffering. You mentioned this multiple times. It's very much a part of your ethos. It's my opinion of you that that is a grounding feature. You feel safe there, like, you know what to expect. Right. And so the rest of the world gets shut down. And when you're suffering. And it is a pretty common thing. Right. I've heard similar language from other people that do. Ultra is. And other friends. Cam Haynes is like this too.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's like. It's a grounding feature of your life to have that. It doesn't make any sense, though, this oxymoron of enjoying pain or enjoying suffering. Right. And I don't necessarily think you're saying you enjoy it, though. Like, correct me if I'm wrong there, but I would love to know more specifics about when you say that's in. You're in pain. Like, what are you exactly talking about? Because. Because it's hard for me to relate to you saying you're in pain or you saying you're suffering. To me, the things that bring you joy sound like suffering. I'm like, I don't want to do that. You gave us a couple of examples earlier. You're chafed, you're rubbing raw, you're sore there. When you are in a race, whether it's Ungolia or you're Ironman or any of the other ones you've done, when do you start hurting and what does that hurt feel like to you when you're saying. You're saying.

[A]

When I'm suffering in a race, it's like I'm really depleted and it feels like I don't know if I can keep going, but I'm going to keep pushing. Now there's a difference where you're like, okay, obviously, if I sprint as fast as I can the first mile in a marathon, that's not sustainable. But I want to get to the point where I'm as uncomfortable as I can possibly be with the pace and still think there's a chance I can make it to the finish line because I can't run fast in a marathon relatively Speaking if I don't start running fast in the marathon beginning. But I will tell you that if you look at any world record or anyone that's won a big marathon, they're either a negative split or very close to negative split. Meaning if you run the first half and it's something about us, we always try to convince ourselves that if I can just bank two or three minutes in the first half, I can hold on for the back half. But what I've come to realize and what people should know is your survival pace, where you're just trying to survive to the finish, is so much slower than your conservative pace early. Because conservatively you're running 10, 20 seconds. Surviving, you're running a minute mile slower. So it's, it's very difficult. And this is where you get experience and this is where intelligence comes into play in a marathon. If you're trying to run 5:40 pace for the whole marathon, then you should be able to run 5:20 pace for the first 10 miles. But how do you rein it in and hold back when you're like, oh, I feel like I can do this at one mile at mile one and I can do this at mile 25. You don't know until you get there. But that's where experience comes in. But I would say that the suffering is like all encompassing. It's emotional, it's physical. You're just like, when I say emotional, I mean you're agonizing over, am I going too fast? Am I going to make it? I'm trying to calculate everything in my brain and then eventually, you know, 15, 20 miles in the brain isn't really working. Clearly you're trying to calculate distance and pace. If I run six minute miles and I always default to like, what's the worst case scenario? Okay, if I, I run seven minute miles for the last three miles, that's 21 minutes. I'm right now I'm at 210, can I get to 220? And you're doing these things and very quickly your brain stops working accurately because it's depleted from glycogen. You're trying to balance everything from caloric intake, hydration, and in a lot of ways that is emotionally distressing because you're like got so much poured into this. This is the big day and it's not fun. And the suffering is just the physical pain that you would feel if someone went out and ran 1500 meter sprints with like 20 seconds rest in between. It's that kind of pain. But it's not that I enjoy the suffering in the moment when I cross the finish line and it all ends. The relief and the euphoria that I feel is like magic. Even when you've killed yourself and you collapse at the finish and need to go to the medical tent with IVs and. And there's something rewarding like that where, like, I did it. I did every single thing that I could. I drained myself as a test of, like, the human spirit. And I get it. To people that aren't into that, they'd be like, this guy's an idiot. Like, why would anyone do this? I get that. I'm not talking to you. Fucking scroll on, scram. Like, I don't. I'm not trying to convert anyone, but to the people who are like minded into this, I don't have to explain to them, they're like, yeah, there's something magical about testing the human limits in the spirit. And. And like I said, I can tell you when I didn't have this mentality, when I was happy to be comfortable all the time and I was making money and you know what? To find the void that this provides for me, suffering provides for me. I found that in drugs. I found the euphoric feeling that I liked in getting high on opioids where I was like, yeah, man, nothing bothers me right now because I'm using those drugs to mask some pain and unresolved trauma in my life. And guess what? What? Prior to the drugs, I had this trauma that was unresolved. And I'm in like this. I'm in a hole. When I take the drugs, the hole gets a little deeper. And the first thing you have to do to fix this is, number one, stop digging. Number two, start addressing, why am I using drugs? Fucking happy, healthy people don't do drugs. Happy people aren't like, yeah, I can't wait. I'm going to get so high this weekend. Like, no, Happy people have, like, outlets to make them to create that feeling. And when you are doing those kind of drugs, you're really like sabotaging your own dopamine and mental and neurological reward system. Nothing in life makes you as happy as some of these drugs. It's completely unnatural to get this huge spike in dopamine and serotonin and all the things that go along with it. And all you're doing is like, completely effing this system up so it's completely haywire. So now the feeling that you're trying to get of like, sitting on, you know, the best vacation I ever took was in Bora Bora with my wife, one of those over water huts. And it's gorgeous. And you're sitting there and you're like, this is it, man. This is heaven. That feeling is kind of like what drugs provide to a certain extent. The problem is when you've hijacked your system with this artificial reward system whenever you want it, like, oh, it's raining and it's Sunday, you know, let me get high. Oh, I'm in the happiest mood and whatever. Now your system, when it actually, when you get off the drugs and you get to Bora Bora again, you're like, everything's dulled. Nothing's the same. And you know, you can't explain this to someone until they've experienced it. And if, if people can learn anything from my experiences, like, don't get into that position in the first place because of all the things I've won. Getting sober is by far my proudest accomplishment because that was so hard. Hard. It would have been so much easier to just keep doing what I was doing. But that two, three, four week period of like getting off the, getting those drugs out of my system and getting back to a baseline of like, you know, acceptable mood where I wasn't manic, depressed and suicidal was hell on earth. It was so bad that I put it off for 10 years by continuing the addiction. And I was never like, using drugs thinking like, this is awesome. I found my answer. I was always like, dude, I have got to get sober. I. But I was too weak to deal with the consequences of withdrawals and detox. And eventually when I started running as a form of penance to deal with my withdrawals and like, I was like, I'll fucking kill myself running because I want to be dead anyway. I don't want to live like this. I eventually got better at running. And then, thank God, I found suffering as my salvation and a way to cope with the feelings that kind of drugs provided for me. I found a worthy cause in suffering. And, and again, to someone who hasn't gone through this and doesn't understand, they'll never understand. I'm not trying to convince you of my way of life.

[B]

It took you 10 years to get off drugs?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And 15 attempts.

[A]

Oh, at least multiple attempts a year. Half assed, sometimes half assed, sometimes sincere. I mean, I got off them for here and there for a month, two months. And then I would be on Subutex, which is like methadone. It was like, stop. So I put it stops the Cravings for the drugs. But it's also highly addictive. Addictive. You don't really get high from it, but you can't just take that for. If you took it for a week and then stop taking it, you'll have some mild withdrawals, but that's the way it's intended to be used. The problem is people take it as a maintenance drug. And when you're on that for months at a time, getting off that is just as hard, if not harder than getting off the opioids.

[B]

I don't get the sense that you're in. Running specifically has really been self punishment per se.

[A]

Not anymore. Initially it was a little bit.

[B]

It feels like it's more of a altered focus. If I can pour myself into that. Not only is there like physical time away from anxiety, myself, yourself. It's hard to have thoughts when you can't breathe.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

For six hours or whatever the case is, but it also feels like it's a target. Right. And. And at some point you're winning races, you're still using drugs. You found international success in a sport that you never started till you're what, mid-30s?

[A]

Yeah, but I was never using drugs while I was running or having success.

[B]

Never.

[A]

No, no, no. I mean, when I was using drugs initially I was like, I would exercise, but when I started competing in any capacity, I never. Like in 2010, when I got sober, I had done like a couple triathlons, but like, just as an experiment, I didn't race competitively. I just showed up and did a race without knowing what I was doing with a road bike. Once I got sober, then I started to like, focus on racing. Not, not competitively, but I started to set goals for myself, but never when I was using those drugs. I couldn't. My heart rate would get too high. It would just like, it would cause complete chaos.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was not sustainable.

[B]

You're obviously a competitive person, that's clear. I don't think that, that you're the same type of competitive as other people.

[A]

Though

[B]

myself as an example, I am beyond obsessed with competing. I actually really don't care that much about winning, though. Winning is very obviously a driver to you. In fact, the first thought in your head is very clearly, if there's competition, if I can't win this damn thing, well, then I'm gonna win it. That's the only option is you're winning. I actually am weirdly not worried about winning. Winning, like very often I want to compete as hard as humanly possible. But I'd like winning or not is a little bit less relevant for me than it is for you. Why have you. And it seems to be this way from your book. Why have you cared so much about the winning part?

[A]

Well, I think that that's a big part of, like, my unresolved trauma and insecurities. Like, I have to be recognized to a certain extent, less so now than previously. But I feel like. Like, because I had done the things I had done with the addiction, I felt like I had wasted so much of my life that I had so much time to make up for that in my mind, I was such a loser. And. And. And I didn't want to feel like that anymore. That maybe the winning filled some of that feeling like I was a winner kind of made up for some of those insecure feelings that led me to my addiction in my first place. And like I said earlier, like, this isn't a tutorial on how you should live your life. Like, I don't want to feel. I want to. I want to be able to feel like I can go and have fun and not have to try to win. But there is something about, like, my own flaws and insecurities that for a long time was like, no, you have to win. If you're not a winner, you're a loser.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is not the right mindset.

[B]

Sure. I understand that. There's also a huge superpower. You've had a wild amount of personal success. You got an incredible family, financial success, professional success, all those things. So wanting to win really bad is a good thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. There's obviously limits to everything. You and I share a trait. Another set of traits, actually, that are oftentimes the same thing that I was, like, obnoxiously ambitious from the time I can remember. And borderline with that is, I would say I will use the word confident.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Other folks maybe will choose a different word, but ambition and confidence and arrogance is. Is like. We're talking about first cousins.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In this thing. And what I've come to realize is it's my estimation if I asked you personally what your single best human trait is, you'd probably say toughness. And reading your book, I don't think that is. You wanted to win. You wanted to be better. And from the sounds of it, other folks in your family maybe didn't want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To be better. And I don't know if you're any tougher or less tough than. Than your family is, but it seems the ambition part mattered. I was fortunate. I've Always felt fortunate that I was born with that. Or as much as I can remember, my brother was born with that, like, but we were just born and wildly ambitious. Wanting to get out of the spot we're in. Is that something you think people can cultivate? Do you feel like you were just born because either your circumstances or your genetics that made you want to, want to, want to get better?

[A]

I think that I was born with the ambition, but I definitely taught myself toughness. I wasn't tough like you. You know, you read about in the book about, like, getting bullied when I went to Alabama, like, I was scared all the time when I was in high school. I grew up in a violent place, man. There was always fighting, was ever present, and I didn't want to fight. I was scared. I mean, I would fight, but I wasn't. It was. It was like death defying. And I took practical steps to address these things. I went to the Somerville Boxing Club and said, I'll just have to learn how to box. I don't like it. I don't want to be here. I wouldn't say I learned to like it. I got comfortable with being scared and uncomfortable, and I turned that into a superpower by being like, I'm going to be so tough that no one will even want to test me, and I'll never have to, like, show them whether I'm really tough or not. And it became true. And I tell that to my kids. Now, one of my sons, my middle son, he is very. He's a very good athlete, but he's very timid. He doesn't want anything to do with contact. Even in basketball. He's like. I tell him, I go, you know that I can see that you're pretending to play defense. You're trying to. Not you're looking like you're trying, but are you letting a guy go right by you? I go, you got to get your body in front of his body. He might bump into you. And he's like, yeah, I am scared. I don't. I don't want it. I was like, buddy, I. I hear you, but you're going to have to learn how to do something. Scared. I'm scared, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But at some point, what I realized is that when you start, like, the story in the book where the coach, I was playing quarterback, he's like, dude, you're just out there taking hits. When you're running the ball, did it ever occur to you to, like, deliver the hit and run hard? And that was a huge turning point for Me, next time I ran the ball, I tried to run the guy over like I was going to kill him. And what you realize is in life, whatever it is, any conflict, any physical interaction, like, if you're going to get hit, don't wait till someone hits you. Do the hitting. It's like I tell my kids, if you think someone's going to fight with you and wants to hurt you, this isn't a tickling contest. You know, in an arm wrestling match, if you think someone's going to hurt you, don't wait for them to, like, don't wait to confirm your suspicions. Start firing punches. And I tell the little one, cameron, what do you do when you throw, when you punch someone? Punch him again. Exactly. And then keep punching them.

[B]

And he's like, oh, the wife, I'm to trying, oh.

[A]

She's like, why are you telling him that? There's never been a fight in this town since, like the 70s. We live in Brentwood, Tennessee. I'm like, well, if we get in a fight, I want to make sure we're on the right side of it. And I think that also stems from my own childhood and my own insecurities of being like, you know, it's like you want to impart all of your experience on your kids and be like, listen, this is how you handle this. And they're like their brain can't even comprehend. They're like, what are you talking about? Dad? But the littlest one, he's so full of confidence. He's like, dad, I don't have to punch anyone. Like, he wrestles, he does jiu jitsu. Like, he's like, what good would it do for me to hurt someone? There he goes, I know I can do whatever I want to them. And I was like, I said to my wife, I'm like, this kid is so mature. He gets it. He's just, he's such a nice kid. But I think if any. If I'm proud of any of the things that I've imparted on my kids, and I do think this about myself is for as tough as I might come across, I think I'm very empathetic. And I think Rob Moore and the people that know me would tell you that is like, I'm a very sensitive person. Like, I genuinely care about people and I. And I say, say ingest. Like, I want to kill everyone. Not physically. I don't want to hurt anyone. And the minute the race is over, I'm like everyone's best friend. I'm like a huge Nerd. Like, I just want to, you know, I like. I. I like interacting with people, but until this, like, the pressure is released after. Till after the race, like, I'm just. I've done so much to get ready for a race. I'm just like. Like a pressure cooker. I'm like. Everything is bottled up inside of me, and I'm, like, dying to get. Let the pressure out of the race, start the suffering, get the suffering over with so that I can enjoy what I just did. And that's the only way I know how to do it. And again, this isn't for everyone. I wouldn't suggest for me. I can't have one without the other, or I haven't figured out a way to show up, be loosey goosey, everybody's pal, go out, empty the tank, and then be happy with the results. If I didn't go through the process that I have to go through, you'll see this.

[B]

You and I have been around enough professional fighters that when they're backstage and they're about to walk out, oh, my God, they're not the same human you've ever known in your life. And when you say, I really want to hope this lands for people, when you hear these athletes say things like, I was ready to die that day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're not that far off from that.

[A]

No. I can tell you from my own experience, like, in my mind, there is a part of me that's like, if you die, you die. And I don't want to die. I. But I've also been suicidal as a result of my addiction. And I know the pain that it caused me, and I know that the pleasure that I get from getting the most out of myself physically now. And there is a huge component where I do feel like no one wants to die. Right. If you did, you would have. You would be dead if you wanted to die bad enough. I don't want to die, but I also don't want to leave with the feeling of having given up. Because the first time I qualified to race in the Ironman in Hawaii, I couldn't, like, just. It's. It's. I felt you quit the race.

[B]

You DNF'd yourself.

[A]

I just stopped on the run. Cause it was getting difficult. And at the time, the most humiliating, embarrassing thing ever. My wife's like, who are you embarrassed in front of? I said, myself, I feel terrible. Like, I. And that feeling. And that. The void that that left in my life changed the course of my, like, endurance career. Because once I felt that and All I can tell is, I can tell people is unless you've experienced, you just don't know about. But the emptiness that I felt inside when I didn't get the most out of myself, when I just took the easy way out, was like the way I think of everything in life. And I've given up so many times with addiction and everything else that I would. I just didn't wanna be that person. And it hurt me. And I said, I will never feel this feeling again. And, you know, to keep going when you wanna stop, when you're, like, completely depleted, it takes a lot of, you know, toughness. And that's where that kind of mentality all stemmed from. And those fighters know that feeling, especially in fighting in mma. Like, you know, the minute that that guy's getting pummeled on the ground, he doesn't surrender, but he kind of, like, strategically lets the guy choke him. He doesn't offer the resistance. You can even hear the analysis. Like, he's not defending this choke at all. He's not doing the right things. Oh, he's. Oh, it's over. He tapped or he got choked out. And it's like your heart breaks because you could see what he's doing, but he just refuses to say it out loud. But he's gonna have to live with knowing that. Surrender, and it's not fun, it's not easy, but if you don't put yourself in those positions, you'll never learn that feeling. You'll never learn how to deal with that feeling. More importantly, how to avoid that in the future.

[B]

Today's episode is sponsored by Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has an ideal electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium and magnesium, but no sugar. Hydration is critical to performance, both physical and mental. And countless studies have shown that even a slight degree of dehydration, even as small as 1%, can lead to decreases in physical output and mental performance. We also know that electrolytes are critical to proper hydration, which I've been harping on for years. But you can do that proper hydration by only drinking water, especially if you sweat a lot. You need to get the right amount of electrolyte in the right ratios. And that's why I'm a huge fan of Element. In fact, many of you might remember that I featured element in my YouTube series on hydration nearly six years ago. I featured Element in these videos because their blend of a thousand milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium really is unique and different than any other electrolyte on the market and it has great scientific support. I use element on nearly a daily basis, especially when I'm doing really hard training and they heat and I'm sweating a lot. If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinklmnt.com perform to claim a free element sample pack with the purchase of any Element drink mix. Again, that's drinklmnt.com perform to claim a free sample pack. You had two things specifically in the book and I didn't write the exact quote down, but one of them was to the effect of everyone can say they have this idea that I'm going to win or I'm going to die, trust trying until they start to get to the die trying part or something.

[A]

Sounds good. Until you get to the dying part.

[B]

Yeah. And then you also wrote down, and this is actually I think the direct quote, that I've quit many races in my mind and then forced my body to keep going until I broke the tape. Walk me through that process. Maybe take a marathon. Take whichever one you want.

[A]

I've got a good one for you.

[B]

When you say your mind broke and then what the hell? How do you get yourself past that?

[A]

So I was running the Malibu Half Marathon and again these things are all like minor little races, little experiences. But the, but I'm sure a lot of people are going to be able to relate to this, to the thought process, to the event that takes place. We take off at Malibu Half Marathon. I get out in front. I think I won it the year before and I'm leading in the turnaround. I'm leading by. It goes out and back six and a half miles.

[B]

What's your best halftime?

[A]

110.

[B]

110. Okay.

[A]

It's 5:22 pace. So I get to the halfway point at this race. I think I ran 112. It's kind of a tough course. But funny thing is when I moved out of, when I moved to Nashville from LA the year after I left, Rob Moore won the race. So him and I dominated the race for so many years. And he ran the same exact time.

[B]

Did he really?

[A]

Yeah. And then in one time I ran the Huntington beach Marathon in 2:30 flat and got second. And I think the year after I left, Rob went down, ran 2:30 flat and went.

[B]

So that's embarrassing because you're a lot younger than Ken. That's, that's, that's pretty embarrassing.

[A]

Rob's a savage. He also did a sub nine hour iron Man. So he's definitely has nothing to be embarrassed.

[B]

They were telling me earlier, I think, like, the something about the first time you guys met, and you're kind of, like, not giving the business a little bit.

[A]

I typically don't like anyone when people like, hey, you want to train? You want to hang out? And someone introduced us. And very quickly, though, I was like, I love this guy.

[B]

Like, you rode 100 miles or something. You're like, oh, okay, yeah, this guy's serious.

[A]

He's, like, into it. He's, like, savage. So I'm running the half marathon. I get to the halfway, and I probably have, like, a minute lead, like, which is pretty significant, between 9 miles and 11 miles. I look back, and the guy's on me. And in my mind, in that split second, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this, I was like, damn it, I'm gonna get second place. My God, I thought I was gonna win this. And in that split second, when that guy didn't go by me and pass me, like, I was standing still, which is what you should do when you catch someone. Distance race. I mean, like, I had surrendered. I was like, oh, I'm going to get second. I'm already running as fast as I can. And now the guy caught me. He's going to go past me. He must be feeling good. But in a split second, I was like, or he could have just emptied the tank from 9 to 11 to try to catch me because he caught me too fast from where he was. And I was like, you know what? Let me put. Let me step on the gas for a second. So he ran next to me, and the funny thing is, it ended up being his dad, but someone on the side of the road, I didn't know who it was at the time, ended up being his dad. Handed him a bottle of water, which you're not technically supposed to take outside assistance just from the aid stations, but it's a small race. It's not a big deal. So he takes the water, and I'm right next to him, and I was like, hey, buddy, give me that water when you're done. I've done this many times in race of just, like, barking at people, and they're like, this guy's crazy. I'm like, give me that water. And he's like, oh. He starts trying to tell me what's in it, and I'm like, don't worry about it. If it's good for you, it's good for me. So I drink as much As I can and then throw it away. And he took some. I took some and then threw it. I don't know if he wanted more, but. But neither of us was getting anymore. So he caught me between 7 and 9 and 9 to 11. We're kind of running together. And then I was like, I can't get into a sprint with this kid. He looked like prefontaine. He had little shorts, a little mustache. He was young. The time I was, like, maybe 50. And so I was like, let me put in a little. No, I was like, 48. Let me put in a little surge and see if he goes with me. And I put in a little surge, and I opened up a small gap. And anyone who knows distance running knows, once you get that gap, like, you're all in. Like, I don't have the gas tank. Tank to keep putting these surges in. Like, I know how I'm feeling in the moment. So I'm like, I put in a surge. He didn't go with me. He didn't cover it. So I was like, eff it. I'm all in now at 11. And I sprinted the last two miles as fast as I could. I mean, I was hyperventilating. I was hurting. And I got there. I beat him by 10 seconds. And when he crossed the finish line and his dad came rolling over, and they're like, oh, it was a great race. And I'm talking to them like, listen, dude. Because again, I'm like, hi. When I finish the race, I'm like, everyone's best friend. I'm like, hey, buddy, had you gone past me, like you meant it? I was dead. I had mentally. I was tapped out. I was like, I can't keep running like this. The minute you didn't, you gave me new life. And you basically, like, sealed your own fate. You had me. You should have ran past me without thinking, and I would have not chased you, because I couldn't go anymore.

[B]

Because then literally the opposite happened.

[A]

When you didn't go past me, I realized you were hurt as much as I was. And I was like, no one can suffer more than me. And I took it upon myself to, like, out suffer you. And the dad was like, are you listening to this? You just caused yourself a win. And I'm like, didn't mean to get you in trouble with your dad, buddy. But, yeah, you did. You could have beat me.

[B]

When he passed you, you're at mile. You said seven or nine. Nine.

[A]

He didn't pass me. He caught me, but he was way

[B]

behind what are you telling yourself when you're going, okay, maybe your confidence is back, but you said you're hurting. I mean, are we 10 out of 10? Are we 9 out of tens? And then what are you telling yourself to not go sliding? In this case, if you slide down the smallest thing, I wouldn't even know. Like, if I was watching, I wouldn't be able to tell, really. And that would lose you the race.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, what are you telling yourself? What's your either internal talk or physical talk or what are you doing to go, I have to run at this 5:20 pace, not this 5:24 pace or whatever the number. Which sounds like the exact same thing. But like, how are you convincing yourself to do that? Like 99th percent at that point?

[A]

I had done so much training with guys like Rob and, and like bike riding and running and knowing someone's like half wheeling you and they're just trying to stay ahead of you, but they can't get away from you. But they keep doing that. There's so many little tactics going into it. I'm running as close to him as I can get. Like, uncomfortably close. Where just trying to, like, like, unsettle him. And I'm just like, you know, like a bit like running a bit like a bully. You're not doing anything dirty, but you're also like, not trying to be like, handing him water at the aid stations, which I, which I, which I have done and would do. I'm not a bad sport, but I'm also like a competitor.

[B]

You're trying to win. Yeah.

[A]

And the whole time I'm evaluating everything he's doing. I'm listening to his breath. I'm trying to get any kind of sense of weakness. I'm trying to see where he feels strong. There's a million. It's just like your brain's like a supercomputer. I'm analyzing every single thing. I'm looking at how he's holding his hands. I'm looking at his face where I can without being obvious. Every step I'm like, is he step for step, Is he falling back? Is he coming forward? And I could kind of sense he was hanging on. And it's a weird thing to say. Cause I don't. I don't know how I would describe it other than that. I just got this, like, sense that he was hanging. And I was like, let me just push. And when he didn't cover that and didn't stay with me, I'm like, oh, if he could, he would have. And I'M like, okay, he can't do that. Let me see if he can do this. And he couldn't. But it wasn't like he just faded away and gave up. He stayed within 10 seconds of me the whole time. And I was like, go away. Because I want to, like, have the moment where I run across the finish line. Like, yes, I won and enjoy to, like, sprint. But you saw that finish of the LA marathon where the guy's like, he's not looking back. And I'm like, this guy's coming like a freight train, and this guy's frigging falling apart. Like, dives across the line and still loses. I'm like, man, you gotta keep your head on a swivel. If nothing else, you could have at least tried to, like, run in front of the guy a little without being. Without breaking rules. You, you know, you see it in track. The guy in the league comes out and he starts to drift to the outside lane, trying to force people to run. Yeah, it's racing.

[B]

Yeah, it's racing.

[A]

No racing there. It was completely collapsed.

[B]

Are you trying to avoid losing? Are you trying to win? Are you trying to remind yourself of technical stuff, like, with your own mechanics? What is actually happening there?

[A]

All of it. There is a part of me that's like, I do not want to lose this. Like I said, when he caught me, I wasn't thinking, like, I got to go with him. I was thinking, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm going to lose. I'm going to get second place. And then I came back to my sense. I'm like, what are you. Literally, I'm talking to myself like, what the F are you talking about? Don't you dare give up. And. And I'm also focusing on mechanics. I'm like, how's my form? Let me look at his form. I'm analyzing his form, and it's all happening at once. It's like a car race. You know, you see a car race and you're like, there are so many things going on in a car race for people that are into it. You're coming into the corner. What lines he taking? Am I behind him on my slipstream and how I want to pass him so he can't then slipstream this. But you. It takes so much time to explain this versus what's being calculated in your brain. Brain. It's all being calculated. It's like when I've heard Tom Brady describe when he drops back to throw a pass. He's not like, okay, he's running this fast. I gotta throw it here. He just sees it and knows where to put it. And it's just there. It's like. It's like your brain is a supercomputer. It's calculating. You don't have to tell me. Have you ever done like a. One of those online speed reading things where it's like, read this word and it's like just a highlighted word and it's going super fast, like ridiculously fast, and before you know it, you're like, I just followed that whole story and I don't think I read one word. It was that you fill the gaps in your brain calculates. That's what's kind of happening. It's like, I'm not as much as bike racing, but nothing is like bike racing in terms of calculating decisive moves. That sport is so much more strategic than non bike racers know. It's crazy. Yeah.

[B]

From the combat world, you and I have been around these people. We've done it ourselves. You'll hear all the times people saying things like, oh, he saw that punch coming. You don't. Right. If you look at the actual time and speed and cognitive processing time with vision, you don't. You do not have the time to see anything interact. What you're looking at are patterns.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you're packaging things and you're seeing. In fact, you'll hear funny stories of all kinds of boxers and fighters who. They're unskilled and they come in and they're actually really successful because they don't have the same tells.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. So season five, they're unpredictable, but not even on purpose.

[A]

And awkward.

[B]

That's the word you hear, right?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You're awkward. Weird angles. And what you're really hearing is the experienced fighter saying, I don't recognize this intentionally, but I'm used to seeing the hip move, then the shoulder move, then the head, and then this comes. And this guy doesn't have that same package. All of a sudden, like the. The hand comes in. Like, they'll just hit guys all over the place. Right. They may not win, but you're just like. They get frustrating and they're awkward and they're. They're kind of like.

[A]

It's like Nate Diaz was unpredictable like that.

[B]

Like you just. It's just not coming in the normal patterns.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you're like, how are you doing this sort of weird thing? There was a lot of research actually, like a decade or so ago, a little bit more than that, on eyesight and professional baseball players.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's the same basic story. What you're seeing there is the reason why left handed pitchers are so much more difficult to deal with than right handed pitchers. Has nothing to do with really the angles, but simple fact that you've got 90% of your processing and packaging mental history is in that same slot. And now you have a very limited data set from the left side slot in this case. And it's more, it's challenging. So you can't see the spin on a ball in baseball. It's too fast. But you can remember it afterwards. Yes. The same thing is, I'm sure true with racing. Like you, you have this package of information that's coming in your brain that is the breathing, the temperature, the sweat, like all that stuff, you know. Know what? And you probably couldn't back and gone like, oh, his elbow started to flare like, no, no, but like I felt it. Right. It's this packaging. When we talk to younger athletes and competitors and we say things like experience, that is exactly what we're referring to. Yep. Right. You have to have that set of stuff come in where you just felt it different. And it's impossible for the most part to, to simulate those things. That was just a monologue for the record.

[A]

No, I love it.

[B]

No question. But here's the, the actual question on that. I think you called this earlier, Rob, clean versus dirty fuel. But I want to double dip on that because I think the way you phrase it is you train like you can't possibly win and then you compete like you can't possibly lose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is that?

[A]

When I'm training, I'm training like as much out of fear as aggressiveness. I'm like this, okay, I'm going to have to race here in the coming weeks. Weeks. If I don't do this now, it's like not studying. If I don't study, I am not going to be ready for the test. And in a lot of ways I always tell my children, pay me now or pay me later. But you will pay. And that means if you don't pay now with the suffering and training and do the hard work now, you'll pay me later with the performance that you don't get in the race. And that sucks 10,000 times worse than having an uncomfortable one hour training session at the training track, which is very, very difficult. Like 8 hundreds is hell on are hell on earth. I can't stand doing them. But there's nothing more magical than when you're doing them and they're working and you're like, okay, it's clicking, it's hard. Everyone, you're hyperventilating, you don't think you can survive, but next thing you know you're ticking them off and you're like, dude, I'm doing this. And that to me is the true test of fitness. When I'm getting ready for a race. If I can do those 800s on the pace, I'm looking for roughly 2:30, 2 minutes, 30 seconds, maybe a little bit faster. When I can do 10 of those with two minute recovery, I'm ready to throw down. And that's a huge test. I think the actual workout's called the Yazo 8 hundreds. You can Google it, it's very famous assessment tool. It basically says that whatever your time for those 10, 8 hundreds or whatever the official amount is, maybe it's 12, something like that, that should be your marathon time. If you're doing them in 2 minutes, 30 seconds, you should be able to run a 2 hour, 30 minute marathon. Marathon. And but clean versus dirty is like the dirty fuel is I'm creating enemies. I'm telling myself everyone's trying to kill me and I'm gonna kill them. And I'm not a victim. And I'm gonna show you. I'm trying to show all my naysayers and doubters, even though I don't think I have any. I mean, I'm sure that there's always gonna people, no matter what you do, that don't like you. Like if you walk on water, there's certain people that are gonna tell you it's because, because you can't swim. Like there are going to be people that just don't like you because you represent everything that they don't stand for. Like you're doing things they can't do. It's human nature. And I don't think I have a lot of them, but in my mind I create this whole universe of people that are like trying to get me. And maybe it's from my childhood where I'm like, oh, they're going to try and kill me. They're going to laugh at me if I don't win, which is completely irrational. But again, the only opinion that matters to me in that moment is my own. And that's how, how I motivate myself. As I've gotten older now, I've started to find more clean energy that's racing out of like, let's get the most out of ourselves. Let's represent ourselves. And more importantly now my children and my family, like represent them with Honor and integrity. Go out and show everyone, like, what you stand for. Empty the tank, give your best effort, and handle yourself with class, which I think that I've always done. But that's how I think of like, clean versus dirty fuel. And obviously, I think it's better for your mindset in general to have that, to be training and racing in a positive state of mind and racing for the right reasons and not trying to create enemies where there are none. Because at the end of the day, it just creates, like, bad energy. And like, a lot of times your brain doesn't understand the difference between what someone's saying versus what you're saying to yourself. And a lot of times we talk to ourselves in ways that we would never talk to our friends or our even competitors. Like, the things that I say to myself are so harsh. And I said this to my wife the other day. It's funny, I was on the plane, I was texting with her and I was, was like, I'm trying to think of what it was I. I yelled at her about. I, she. I was, I came out and I was like, the car was crashed up a little. And I'm like, dude, did you smash into something with the car? She's like, yeah. I'm like, well, you not going to tell me? Like, you didn't think. And what I realized is, like, because she's so close to me and basically like part of me at this point and, and almost like an extension of. Of me, I catch myself talking to her the way I talk to myself, and I was like, do you realize? And I go, I never thought about this before, but I'm like, why would I talk to her like that? Because that's the way I talk to myself. Because that's part of like, all of my problems and all of my flaws and unresolved trauma stems from this incredibly unrealistic, harsh expectations of myself, where in a lot of ways I'm a failure and a loser. Like, at my worst, obviously, I try not to live in this space and like, in a constant shame storm. But what I realized is when things like this happen, and it involves my wife, I verbally talk to her the way that I would talk to myself because I'm almost viewing her as part of me. Like, if she let me down, I'm like, it's like I've let myself down again. Like when I was in my addiction, like, you stupid. I would never say this to her, but to myself, I'm like, you stupid bastard. How could you do this? I had A nail stuck in my tongue last week, and I said to her, hey, can you pick me up at the airport? Do me. She has an suv. And I said, do me a favor. Take my car. I forgot that the nail was in there, and the tire had gone down to, like, seven miles. So she's. I go out the car and she's there, and I get in and I go, oh, my God, the warning lights are on. I go, I have a flat tire. I'm like, you didn't see the warning light on? So I basically start yelling at her, like, you don't see that I've. And then I'm like, you know what? I said, it's not your fault. I am an idiot. And for, like, 10 minutes, I'm like, I can't believe I was this stupid, trying to drive to a gas station. I get there, it has seven pounds of pressure in it, the tires basically on the rim. And I'm like, I am so stupid. And she's like, all right, it was a mistake. Let it go. And that's when I realized I'm like, I'm talking out loud to you the way I'm talking internally to myself. But I don't want that to be a reflection on you. I said, I'm sorry. I. I never thought about it like this, but in reflecting on. On how I was venting to her, it wasn't at her. I was venting at myself externally. And, you know, I guess that's some insight into, like, my good energy, clean energy, and dirty energy. That was all my dirty energy of, like, oh, but at the end of the day, it was just a mistake. I should have been able to just be like, all right, look, if it's a. If the frigging tire's ruined, tires ruined. At the end of the day, even if the rim is ruined, it's like, it's a little bit of money. I mean, I'm far from wealthy, but I can afford to fix the tire if I have. Have to.

[B]

I have personally never been a big, kind of, like, rah rah guy. Like, I don't. I don't watch an Instagram video or a song and be like, great, I'm gonna go change. Like, I just. It's never kind of like. It's feels kind of, like, cliche, you know, Like, I'm not really that. That's never been my motivation, though. All it. Fine. If that's anything that gets people to do positive things, like, I'm all in for. Right? Who cares? Right? We're all different personalities. That's great. But what I have found so inspirational about your journey is just how candid and how raw it is. Yeah, right. It's the flaws, it's everything else there. And I have found some useful things out of it personally. And it's not that. Again, it's not the big sort of stuff. But if, if people are listening or read the book and take that out, that's great. So I'm wondering if somebody is listening and they're like, look, I'm never going to go do an ultramarathon. I don't have that extreme personality. Right. So that part doesn't resonate with them. But they kind of maybe want to make a change or they're thinking that they might want. Are there some baby steps that you feel like might be useful for that non extreme personality? I'm not going to go from zero to an ultra marathon. Like I can't do this wild type of stuff. What are some things that you would recommend for a step one path?

[A]

Great question. I wouldn't even suggest that you do an ultramarathon. Like I wouldn't suggest.

[B]

I just want to, I want to make sure people aren't hearing that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you're not recommending.

[A]

I'm not even recommending you run races.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what I am suggesting is that your health, mental and physical health, is your top responsibility in life. It's more important than your children and your marriage. Because without your health you're useless to anyone. Would you? I couldn't think of doing something worse than neglecting my mental and physical health and having my wife and children have to care for me before it's absolutely necessary. You can get in an accident and something happens and you're married, your family will do anything to take care of you. And I would expect and hope that that would be the case. But if you're out there smoking cigarettes, eating junk food, not exercising and putting yourself in a compromised health position and then you develop some ailment, now your children are like having to worry about you. Just like for a parent, you're never going to be happier than your saddest child. Your children most likely are never going to be happy if they know that their parents are dealing with health issues that were totally avoid. So I would say to anyone listening, the first thing you need to do is a take responsibility for yourself. No one can tell you what you should eat. No one can tell you you have to exercise. But I can tell you that if you don't eat healthy and exercise regularly you're not going to live as long or as healthy a life period. It's just impossible, right? Muscle is the organ of longevity. If you don't have some, you're probably not going to live quite as long. Maybe you're a freak of nature and you can live to 100, but if you're taking care of yourself, you're probably going to have a lot more health, healthy, productive years, a lot more time to spend with your children. And what I would suggest is that you start to institute some discipline. Meaning it doesn't have to be running. How about this? Just get out. If you're not an exerciser at all, how about you start with like a 1 mile walk, 10 minute walk and work your way into being able to walk for an hour several times a week. And if you can do that, maybe you add some weight and like do like a rucking backpack and you ruck for an hour. But I just think that for the people that don't do that, they're missing out on a key component in life because there's nothing to me, there's such a great feeling that's available to everyone every day. And that's the minute you're done doing something hard. That's the key. It's like I was telling you, I don't really get a runner's high while I'm running, but I get a runner's high every single day. The minute I stop running, I walk up this little hill to my house every day. I've never been in a bad mood walking up that hill. Never. Even when I'm like getting emails and texts, when I stop running, I look at my phone and I start walking up the hill. Even when there's negative news, I absorb it so much better. If I wake up and I look at my phone for the first time and there's bad news, immediately I could feel like a chemical shift in my body. I'm like the frustration and the chemicals that get released as a, as the response to this negative news, it can like throw me off kilter. Which is why I try not to look at the phone for the first hour when I wake up. But when I get that kind of same message after a run, I'm like, all right, let me just deal with this right now. And typically if it's something that needs to be addressed, I just call them right now. I'm like, I'm a big caller. I'm not. Like, I send some texts. But like anyone who knows me knows, like I don't hesitate to Just call someone. Which is funny because then I see my phone ring and I'm like, what lunatic just calls someone without texting for us? But that's me. And Rob can tell you I just like, when I need to talk to him, I just call him.

[B]

Yeah, I got you there. You wake up in the morning. Morning and run is the first thing that you do, right?

[A]

In a perfect world, if I'm in my routine, I wake up, have some coffee, deal with some work stuff, read the news, like, read the online news, like, check the sites that I check, you know, look at stock stuff, a little bit of finance stuff, and I'll try to, like, watch a little bit of sports. And I try to relax and, like, get up and I like slow roll. I do not get out of bed and just start running. I like, I need to slow roll and so I'll have some coffee in the morning. Morning. I try to do the Huberman protocol and not drink it immediately. Actually, the first thing I drink as soon as I wake up is I have. And I don't have a partnership with Element, but I drink element in like 16 ounces of water and I just chug it down. It's not enjoyable, it's not fun. I'm like, this is just necessity. I need to rehydrate. And then I will have some coffee and like 30 minutes later, I'll just sit there, relax. And typically then the kids get up and I try to get them, wait until they go to school at like 8:30. So I'll go through my morning routine, talk to my wife, what's going on today, you know, like, just like a business. I just work from home. So I'm like, going through the morning routine. And then I'll run like 8:30 to 10, come home, depending on what the phone call is. Like, a lot of times I'll take calls while I'm running. If it's someone, like, if it's with my own business, like my own agency. If I'm talking to Ben Eldo, one of my colleagues, I'll talk to them on the phone. If I'm not working out, meaning if I'm just doing 10 miles, that's like my maintenance run. But when I'm training for a race, I'm doing like, workouts twice a week, a long run. You know, it's like focused. And then I come home and I get into the work routine, start to get into my diet. I usually don't run, eat until after I run and have like, a very strict, regimented lifestyle. And I've just found peace in the discipline man. And I heard Elliot Kipchoge say one time that a man without discipline is a man with no freedom. Because when you have discipline, you're free to do what you want the rest of the day. When you have no discipline, you're your prisoner to your emotions. You feel lazy until you take a nap. You feel hungry, you eat a piece of pie. Like that, to me, isn't freedom. Freedom is to know, like, I'm doing what I know I need to do, and then when that's all done, I can do the things that I want to do. And to someone who doesn't have discipline would say, that sounds like he's a prisoner to the work outside. Disagree.

[B]

Your maintenance, 70 miles a week.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's. That's baseline. Yeah. You're gonna run 70 a week. What's the highest you would kind of get up to? 100.

[A]

100? Yeah. 100 would be a lot for me. Maybe a little bit more occasionally, but not much more.

[B]

Would you ever go to kind of that middle ground? 80, 85.

[A]

Many, many times. Like, if I'm training for a marathon, it's typically 80 to 90. That would be average.

[B]

Yep. So you're going to do your 10 every day, and then occasionally, a few of those days, you'll jump up.

[A]

Yeah. And then the other thing I would just want to say is, like, I realized that a lot, that it would probably benefit me more if I took a day off here and there or if I did, like, three miles. I know. Know that. But this, again, this journey for me, anyone who knows me, I've said this is as much about mental health as it is about physical. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. This is not for anyone else. You could never do this kind of thing for other people. This is not performative. I don't care what you think about my training. I'm not looking for adulations or congratulations from online coaches. And there's a lot of them, apparently. There's a lot of people out there that know a lot about running. They all want to tell me how I should do it, but I have to stress I'm not trying to necessarily run as fast as I can. I'm trying to be the best version of myself that I can be for my family. And this is the only thing that is that I have found that worked. When I left to my own devices, I found drugs. I found, like, cheat codes. And I, like, realized that, again, the easy road never pays well. And I'M not looking to do, like, not get paid well for my work.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

That's just not a day of course. Well you're not going to hit that had in there. And at some point that took you from presumably never running a marathon to running a two and a Half hour marathon or something like that. Right.

[A]

I had run a marathon in my 20s when I got to New York in three hours and 20 minutes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Just without like very much training or knowing what I was doing. So I had like, I had some ability to run, but I wasn't. Wouldn't consider myself a runner.

[B]

Okay. So actually I'll back up a little bit. That's interesting. You played every sport.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

In high like as a kid you just played everything. Hockey was your main jam. Right. Played college hockey and football. And college football, yep. And then you ran that marathon something in your 20s and that was the first time you'd ever run over any race five miles.

[A]

You know, obviously I started training and I had done like, you know, a handful of 18 mile runs in Central park. But again I was running in cotton gym shorts, like mesh champion shorts, cotton T shirt. I was so chafed I didn't know about gels or anything, anything else. I was fantasizing about food. You know, when you're not in great shape, you're like, you get dehydrated quickly, you're starved for calories, your body's not used to running fasted now. I mean I run 20 miles in the summer with no fuel, no. No hydration and no calories easily.

[B]

Well, I think that's interesting here is you went from a very traditional sport background.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Little success, played some college stuff. That's great. And then your first marathon is three and a half hours hours, which is good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's pretty normal. Yeah. Right. Most athletic young men are probably going to finish their first marathon in the four hour range.

[A]

Right? Right.

[B]

Plus or minus. And you obviously have some genetic endowments.

[A]

I ran two or three after 3:20 and 3:30. So just to give you context, it wasn't like, oh my God, he's a natural.

[B]

Like that's what I'm getting at.

[A]

I couldn't.

[B]

Yeah, you're a little bit better than some of us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you weren't like a first marathon 245 like anywhere in the stratosphere here.

[A]

Not even close to.

[B]

You didn't come from running cross country as a five year old. Like you don't have. Hockey is a, a very fatiguing sport. It's a high anaerobic sport though.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's anaerobic threshold.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

This is nothing like it's not even running. It's a different movement pattern entirely. And football is especially at quarterback. It's far from that thing. I hope people are connecting with that a Little bit. Because that's a pretty normal thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you start packing on 70 a week.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that gets you an hour off your time.

[A]

I mean, I did that in, like, 1996. I don't think I ran a marathon again until, like, 2012.

[B]

Okay, so that was.

[A]

Yeah, you talking crazy. Like, I did that on a whim. I trained for, like, several months and ran a marathon. And after that I was like, that sucked. I don't want to ever do that again. And then I got.

[B]

You didn't like running Initially, no, I

[A]

don't like running now. I don't. I'm like. I'm not like, yay, I can't wait to go for run. I'm like, oh, I gotta go run. Just like, I gotta go to school or I gotta go to work.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Gotta take out the trash.

[A]

Yeah, that's it. I'm like, yeah. What do you want to do today? Let me just get this run over with. I'll be right back. I got involved with drugs when I got sober in 2010, I started doing triathlon. And through that, I was running. And. And as I was running in the triathlons, I'm like, my running is pretty good. I wonder if I do some open races. And I did like a 130 marathon. Then I did a 124 marathon. Then I did a 117. I was like, holy shit, I'm really getting fast.

[B]

Half marathons.

[A]

Sorry. Half marathons. And I was like, wow, I'm getting pretty good. And my wife's coming to the races. We don't have kids, and it's fun. And then we had our fourth child. And I moved to LA in January 2016, and living in the Palisades, I met Rob, trained for. I had already qualified for the Ironman 2016 in Kona. In 2015, right after I had my fourth son, I did the Ironman Wisconsin, and I finished like sixth or seventh overall. Like, I smashed it. I did like 9:30ish, and I ran fast. I rode my bike under five hours. And I did terrible in the swim. But we had my first son and I was living in Westchester County. So I'm driving back and forth to work in the city. It's driving me crazy. Mad anxiety, road rage every day. So I just abandoned the swim. I'm like, you know what? Eff it. I'm going to either swim. If I train obsessively, I can swim close to one hour. If I do no swimming, I can swim in 110. Yep. So I Was like, you know, make

[B]

up that difference in the run, in the bike, right. Easily.

[A]

Well, so I gave up the 10 minutes in the swim and I probably missed second place by 10 minutes. And I was like, damn it, if I swam, if I did this, if I did that. And then I was like, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. Like, what's the difference? Like people always like, if I didn't go so hard on the bike, I had the fastest bike split my run was. But I'm like, it's a triathlon. It does not matter if you ran one mile fast or you did the bike fast or you had a good great. I don't care if you were the first out of the water, you were last in the race after the run. So that's all I care about. If it was a swim race, you'd be the best. But it's triathlon, you're the worst.

[B]

It's a swim bike run.

[A]

Yeah. Two and a half mile swim in the ocean in Hawaii. 112 mile bike, which is so much

[B]

harder to lava on pavement and up

[A]

to havi up this long ass climb. And just I'm telling you, like dangerous crosswinds. So when you're coming back down this hill at 40, 50 miles an hour and you're getting battered by crossing crosswinds on the like with your arms extended on these arrow bars and you get blown up, people get blown right into the lava. And news flash, getting thrown into lava is like getting thrown into sandpaper. Oh yeah, it did just. They look like they've been thrown through a meat grinder.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it happens. So you're like holding off a dear life and you're trying to make up for time because you've just been riding uphill for six miles. It's so hard. And then you start the marathon around one or two o' clock in the afternoon in the whole Hawaiian heat. Yeah. People like, it was so hot on the run. I'm like, yeah, no, it's Hawaii in the middle of the day. Of course it was hot.

[B]

I appreciated that context in the book especially because having done the things I've done, it's not the, the running, it's not the, the hiking, it's not that stuff. That is the suffering part. It's the fact that you got the chapped lip.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's the blister.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's the fact you haven't had a normal bowel movement in three and a half days and you're just it's that. That stuff that grinds on you mentally, and you're just like, I. I just want clean socks. Yeah. Or like, I just want this blister to go away. It's driving me nuts all day. It's not your muscle glycogen. It's not your pace. Like, it's none of those things. It's that little discomfort stuff. And you. You don't plan for it. You don't know it's coming. It's the wind. Like, the thing I always say about, like, hunting in the cold, especially it put the. Put the temperature to zero. Like, I don't care. It's not that bad. But if the wind is blowing in your face, oh, my God, like, that's the fastest way hunters are back to in the truck. Like, it's over. Like, you're done. You can't handle that wind in your face. It's just so horrible to be with.

[A]

That's what I'm talking about. About the suffering. It's like, so.

[B]

It's every second, it's physical suffering.

[A]

Of course you're hurting, but it's the mental suffering. It's like, I so badly want to stop. So just imagine in a marathon, a thousand voices in your head telling you, dude, just stop. This is stupid. No one cares. You're not going to win the Chicago Marathon. You lose her, no one cares. You're not even going to be in the top half. But there's that one other voice, like, in the, like, corner, like, you guys, we're winning this race. Keep going. Don't listen to these guys. They're losers. Keep pushing. And it's like, which crew do you listen to? The loud, like, peanut gallery or the one guy who's, like, just desperate to win? And that's literally, like, what goes on. It's like everyone's screaming to stop. All systems are like, stop. Hyperventilating, dehydrated, legs are sore, calf is killing. And then there's the one person who's like, do something different. Be a champion. Like, fight through this. There's, like, a million stories of guys that have overcome. Guys and girls that have overcome incredible discomfort and displeasure to be, like, to go on to do great things.

[B]

49, 51. That's how you wrote it in the book, right? 49% of you wants to quit.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I don't need it to be 99%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I just need 1% more says, go. Yeah, keep going. Then the 1% that says, stop going.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

How do I build that? 51.

[A]

You just have to make the decision that you want. Do you want to win or lose in life? Like, and, and I can tell you this with, with certainty because I've chosen the losing path many, many times and it was not fun. And, and I was talking to Rich Roll recently, and he was like, maybe you traded one addiction for another. And I'm like, yeah, guess what? One addiction had me suicidal. And the other addiction has me here talking to you about my new book. I'll take this addiction. I wouldn't suggest anyone else does this. I'm not, I'm not. I haven't figured it out. I'm not in a, oh, this is survival mode. I'm not in a state of bliss. I'm like, telling you, hey, I'm deeply flawed. I did some cool things along the way, but here's some things that you might be able to learn from. But I wouldn't suggest that you want to be like me, but I would say that you could take some of the things that I've done and some of the tricks and, and, and things that I've been able to do do and convince myself of. You might be able to take something from this and apply it to your own life. And maybe you can become the best podcaster, the best sports scientist, the best trainer. Like, you don't have to run. I don't. Like I said, I don't like running. I'm not an advocate for, like, hey, come join the running community. I'm trying to build a tribe. I'm not. I'm telling you, running happened to be the vehicle that I used to get to where I am today. But it was just by happenstance that I was running a lot and I just started to get good at running. But I was not trying to be like, a winning marathons and be a great runner. But I hope that people listening can apply that to whatever it is they're. If you're a. If you run a hedge fund, be the best hedge fund manager in the world. Typically, the guy who tries the hardest, puts in the most work, typically will win. And occasionally you'll get people that are, like, savants, and they're like, maybe on the spectrum and they have some, like, natural ability where you're like, like, Elon. Where you're like, how does this guy's brain work? Like this. And he'll tell. Like, I've heard Elon say, like, you don't want to be like, like me. You think you, you want. People just want the prize. They don't Want what comes with it. And you can't get one without the other. I've heard Kobe Bryant and Tom Brady talk about the process that it took them to get the most out of themselves. And it doesn't sound fun. That doesn't sound appealing. I heard Tom Brady the other day say I was a psychopath. Monday to Friday on the practice field. I was a lunatic. I wasn't fun to be around. All I wanted to do was win. That doesn't sound like fun. But do you want seven super bowl rings? I do. I'm willing to do that. I can do that. Money. Most people think they can do that and they want to do that. They believe it. But the minute the shit gets hard, you find out how badly you want it. Because what I've done is available to everyone. I'm not a good runner. I mean, I'm a decent runner. I'm a decent athlete. I know that. But no one was looking for me in Division 1 sports. No one was like seeking me out to sponsor me to run races. I just tried harder than a lot of other people in a sport that when you try hard, you're rewarded with respect results. But I would argue that that's available in every profession in the world. The person who's into AI coding or whatever the technical term for AI engineering is the guy who spends the most time obsessing over that is probably going to be like the guy who gets those hundred million dollar contracts to go to like chat GPT or, or anthropic or whatever the competitors are. Xai, you, you studied more than everyone. You know more than everyone else. He has a hundred million dollars. We need you.

[B]

One of the questions I've got the most in my career is having dealt with and personally coached some of the world's most decorated athletes, many of them actually. You know what's different about them? Having done this in baseball players and football, across all these different things, one thing that is consistent across all these people, when they get tougher, it matters. Tough always translates. Skill, practice doesn't always translate more, more diet, like those things don't always translate. They generally work for most people. But always we've found when people try harder, it translates into more, which is the wildest thing to say. But even the best in the world, try harder. Like that is your quickest, most consistent path to getting better. You call it the other side of hard. We call it try harder. It will deliver. It's the one consistent thing that I can say and say if you're gonna roll the Dice on something and just try. Like, more effort tends to win. And there's the exceptions when that's like, hey, you're burying yourself and we gotta back off, Ken. Like, we gotta maybe pull some flying. But let's start with figuring out what hard really is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And let's get there first.

[A]

Through all the training I've done, I've never felt like, oh, my God, I've done too much this week. I've never. I mean, I feel like I'm. I'm exhausted, I'm destroyed. But I never felt like. Like I can't get more out of myself in a weird way. And it's a strange thing to say now, reflecting, because I'm trying to think, like, when was the time where I really needed a break? I would say after those. After the Mongolia race, I needed, like, a couple of weeks to feel normal again. I was run down. But you're talking a week of, like, extreme racing every single day. But to your point about try harder. I tell my own kids, and I know that for my children, I feel bad because I know it ain't easy being my kids, because they see the intensity that I bring to every breathing. And it's like, I get. I understand the reputation that I have,

[B]

and that's not everyone's personality.

[A]

But I try to convey to them. I'm like, guys, I don't care if you're good, bad, or indifferent. But the one thing I do care about is who's trying the best. Cause I said, you know, if we're at football or soccer game, any sport, I said, we can all sit here in the stands and we can watch the game, and all of us can say which kid out there is a savage who's trying the hardest. He's not the best, but he's trying the hardest. He cares. You could see the emotions, emotion. He's. I go, that's free for everyone. Any. Any of you can be that guy. So anyone listening, like, you can be the guy in work who comes in a little bit early, stays a little bit late, and you can. You can fake your way through that for a week or two, but you can't be that savage. Every day, all day, someone is. But you can't force your way through it unless you truly believe that that's who you are. And. And in a lot of ways, that's what I've been able to do, is convince myself, because there's many days I don't believe anything about myself. I'm like, I'm not that tough. I'M just. I'm just trying to get through the workout. I'm just trying to get through the. The day, but by showing up every day. And even if I don't believe it internally, I'm. That's the external. That. That's what I'm reflecting to the world. And that's the other thing to know that the world is a mirror. You'll get back exactly what you put out there. So if you put out, like, I'm tough, I show up every day, and you put it out there, enough people will believe you and they'll start to reflect back to you. Like, in my case, where people like, wow, you're really tough guy. I'm, like, scared shitless all the time, but okay, yeah, I'm tough. Like, if you believe I fooled you, but okay. And so that's what I try to reflect to the kids is guys, pretend that you're not scared. Yeah, pretend that you're like you want to try the hardest. At the end of the day, I don't care what you think. I only care what you're doing if you're doing it. If you're out there trying super hard, everyone will see it and be like, I want that guy on my team. At the same time, when they see you pretending to do a tackle and the guy runs right past you, everyone knows you didn't want that. And that's sucks. It's much more rewarding to stick your helmet in there and maybe feel a little bit uncomfortable and have, like, get a hard hit than to feel that emptiness of being, like, didn't even try. You let him run right by you. I try not to tell them that, but, I mean, everyone can see what happens. And that's what I try to tell them is like, you're not fooling anyone.

[B]

I had a really big revelation when I was working with a UFC fighter, and he had won, I think, seven or eight in a row. He should have gotten title fight. He was right there and just. It was bad luck, honestly. Bad timing, injuries, and, like, you know, those things going, whatever. And soon after that, his career was over. Still is a young guy, still hyper competitive. He just had some, honestly, super bad breaks. Like winning world championship's hard. Yeah, it's like really, really hard.

[A]

You know, it gets harder every year. Guys are so competitive.

[B]

So the lesson I learned from him was the last couple of fights in his career, career, he would come back afterwards and we do these deep dive analyses after competitions, right? Because I need feedback and lots of stuff. And he was like, man, the hardest part was actually like getting hyped up for the fight and I'm like, whoa. And this was a enormous red flag for him. Some people are not that way. But he's just like, I just didn't care. And I was like like oh. And he's the kind of guy who's in the back and he wants you to like say the most vulgar things. Probably some of your selft talk would land like that's the stuff he wants to hear about. Like this is life and death and like this kind of stuff. And he, he needed that mindset to get in there. And he's like, I just, like I just couldn't. And I was like oh no. Because I knew that was part of his process. I don't know. Three fights later he's retired, right? It was like, oh, oh. The revelation I had there was. I don't think for a minute he ever got comfortable being uncomfortable. I don't believe in that at all. One of their conversations I had with a guest this year, Dr. Lenny Wiersman, sports psychologist. Like he hates that saying I'm not fully convinced people ever get comfortable with that because when you talk to these athletes, they're still scared. They hate the thing like you hate the race. You're scared every day, you don't want to do it. I'm not fully convinced people get more comfortable because in my life I'm like waiting to get comfortable with those things. I'm like, it's never here. Like when am I going to get this dang thing that I'm like, I'm comfortable. But I think what people can develop and I would love your thoughts here is just a willingness to do it anyways.

[A]

That's a great point. I'm not comfortable like oh, I'm so comfortable with the fact that I'm about to feel like I could drop dead at every step. It's not that it's being comfortable knowing that it's coming and doing it anyway. That's what I mean is like you're willing, you're comfortable with the fact that I know that I'm going to wake up and wish to God that like the race would be cancelled. There'd be like a fire downtown and no one can raise cuz the fire like or going walking into a boxing match. When I was boxing with the New York Athletic Club, I, I would be praying for the lights to go out. Please let there be a power outage. Like crazy thoughts, but you go anyway. And what, what I mean by being comfortable with discomfort is like, okay, I'm comfortable. Comfortable meaning I'm still gonna go. I have all these thoughts, but I'm comfortable with the fact that I believe. I know I'm going anyway. I'm comfortable knowing I'm still going, but I'm scared all these things are happening, all these thoughts are there for me. I'm scared I have all the insecurities, but I have comfort inside knowing I'm still gonna go, but I'm gonna go through this process. So it's not that you're. Oh, I'm so comfortable with the fact that, like, I might get knocked out in front of everyone. No, but I'm comfortable knowing that I'm gonna show up no matter what happens here, I'm going to, and I'm getting in that ring and I, you know, I'd be comfortable betting on myself to show up.

[B]

How do you get that comfort experience?

[A]

You have to put yourself out there. It's. That's why I can't understand why people aren't involved in any kind of competitive process if you're just going to work, coming home, and not putting yourself in those positions. I just feel like you're missing a lot of important lessons in life, because what do you do when you're faced with real adversity? Like, my wife was diagnosed with cancer earlier last year, and that was. Man, it's hard not to get choked up to thinking about it now because it was. Scared the shit out of me. It scared the shit out of her. It scared my children. And I was like. And we had a moment after, like, a week or several days of, like, crying and feeling like victims and feeling like, you know, we have the death sentence that I literally said to her, like, enough of the bullshit. We gotta suck it up and get. And lean into this and get ready. Like, someone's coming to fight us. And we can either get the shit kicked out of us or we can fight back. That's how I looked at it. And I convinced she was like, you know what? You're right. And my wife doesn't have the same, obviously the same mindset as me. She's a normal person, and it mattered. And thank God she had best case scenario. She had her. She had the mastectomy surgery. It all went well. She didn't have to do any, like, really harsh chemo treatments or anything to that effect. And now she's, like, on the road to recovery. But the point is, I believe, like, would we have gotten through it if I wasn't, like, doing the crazy Shit that I was doing. Probably. Probably. But in a lot of ways, it made it easier to cope with and deal with because I honestly think that my mentality rubbed off on her. She's tough anyway. I'm not trying to take credit for any of her toughness, but that talk. That talk made a sense. Like, I'm not a rah rah guy. You don't have to yell at me. You don't have to cheer me up. I know there's nothing you can say to make me try harder than I'm about to try. But what I would do is, like, even with my kids, I would, like, lean in and get close to my children. I'm like. Like, hey, when shit gets hard, show them who you really are. Be tough out there. And no matter what happens out here, remember, we're gonna leave, go get donuts. I'm still gonna love you. And it doesn't matter, but we're gonna have much more fun if you try your hardest. And it's like, all right, let's go. And you see them, and you see sometimes they respond to it and sometimes they don't. And they come back defeated. Especially, like, the little one who wrestles. It's like, man, he gets pinned twice in his first, like, competitive tournament. But I'm like, buddy, those guys are. Have, like, four years of wrestling experience. You've been to one wrestling tournament in your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, you have to get comfortable with losing to. In the sense that. Don't view them as losses. Like, learn something. Did you learn something when you did that and the guy, like, cradled you and, like, rolled you over? Did you. You see what you did wrong there? You had him, and then you didn't. He's like, yeah, I was like. The champions realize they. They can process that. Everyone hates to lose. All the kids cry when they lose. It's. It's okay. Cause it means that you. You care. But what you can't do is let that define you. To say, that's who I am. I lost. I'm a loser. You're not a loser. The world champion has lost. In tournaments, especially when they're kids, you have to go through this. It's like, Jiu Jitsu is the perfect example. There isn't a person alive who goes to Jiu Jitsu who didn't get tapped out multiple times every single training session. Because how can you get better if you don't train with guys that are better than you? And when you train with guys that are better, better than you, they Dominate you. Ask anyone who's gone through any kind of Jiu Jitsu. When you're a white belt and you go with a guy who's a blue belt or a purple belt, you can look at him and be like, I'm gonna twist this nerd in a pretzel. Look at this guy. He's a geek. And the next thing you know, he's got you in, like, a frigging a twister. And you're like, how am I stuck in this position? But it's all technique and it's. And it's being calm. Now, I think that Jiu Jitsu gives some of the best life lessons. And Cameron, my youngest, he goes to Jiu Jitsu, and there's little girls there who. Who are just. Their technique is so flawless. And I'm like. And, you know, he goes there, the girls get the better of him. And he's like. He comes out. I'm like, buddy, you did pretty good. He's like, yeah, yeah. Did you see? I got that girl? And I did this? And I'm, like, thinking to myself, I'm like, I love the fact that he realizes the gender doesn't matter. The technique is there. It's for every. It's available to everyone to learn. And when you understand staying calm in an uncommon environment. Environment. And it's like physical chess. I'm like, when you did that, she, like, basically reversed you. It's not about being stronger than her. Because he would say to me, he'd be like, dad, it's crazy. I'm so much stronger than her. I can pick her up, I can take her down. I can do anything I want. And then the minute we get on the ground, she's on her back. And the next thing you know, she's got me in a triangle. I can't hurt. And I go, yeah, buddy, you have to learn what she's doing. And this isn't about physical strength. It's about intelligence. That's what I like about Jiu Jitsu is you can apply strength and intelligence, and one doesn't beat the other. It's like, which one's more important? I don't know. But they're both critically important in Jiu Jitsu. But for parents out there, I can't. Of all the sports that my kids do, Jiu Jitsu is the best for all kids. Cause you can be the worst athlete, the nerdy kid who just wants to be studious. And you can apply that intelligence to that sport and be really good. But the worst sport is Wrestling. Wrestling. If you're not comfortable, like, yep, being uncomfortable. Wrestling is a hard sport. It's hard to watch. It's hard for the kids to do it. It takes so much effort. And, man, it is painful when it doesn't go your way.

[B]

Oh, it's. It's full peg the whole time.

[A]

Oh, I. It's so physically demanding.

[B]

You guys hate wrestlers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, well, you just calm down for.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Just calm down, Calm down and let

[A]

me put this move on you in the wrestlers just, like, sweating all over you.

[B]

Just like a savage muscle on your body is doing something different at different times than Jiu Jitsu is.

[A]

Like, whoa. Yeah.

[B]

You mentioned failure several times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You'll hear these cliches, these tropes. You know, either you win or you learn. And, you know, you learn more from your failures and your successes. All those things are true. I rarely hear people give actual insights off of that, though. You just gave a bunch of them. I would love to know more. You've had so many failures and your life thrown out of your college team. And you've mentioned the decade, drug addiction and failures. And failures.

[A]

And I got fired from my first job on Wall Street.

[B]

Fired from your first job and then your second job was.

[A]

Thank God. I did every single setback that I've had in my life, including my addiction has become a strength, every one of them, and they all sucked. I didn't want to go through them. I don't want to go through them. I hate that I had to go through. Through them. But I got fired from my job for slapping a guy for bullying, harassing me. Like, I was like, the young guy. And I was like, no one's bullying and harassing me. I'd rather, like, get fired. And I did.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But when I did, a couple of guys heard about it. Bigger traders in the market at Enron. This guy's crazy. Slapped the guy. They were like, I want him to be my broker. That guy's a nut. I want him protecting my orders. Within a year of that slap, I was making over a million dollars a year living in London, flying, flying on the Concorde, driving a brand new Porsche, had a beautiful house in London. I had everything. And at the time when I got fired, I was like, I can't believe I've been fired. I can barely pay my rent. I'm making 40 grand on. That was on a Thursday. On a Monday, I had a job making 80 grand. This is in 1996 or seven. That was more money than anyone I knew of, including my Parents and their friends.

[B]

I mean, you're making more a month than probably your. Your parents made in a year.

[A]

I had everything.

[B]

I had, like, single, no kids.

[A]

All the stuff, for one thing, that I realized with having stuff and going through that, you know, and I've talked a lot about this before about money doesn't make you happier. And it really doesn't. It didn't change anything about me. I took myself with me everywhere I went. And you know what? I had all the same insecurities. I developed a drug problem. And no matter what kind of suit I had on, whether it was a shit green suit from Filene's basement or a cashmere and wool Armani Susan from Sloane street in London, I was still an insecure idiot inside with a lot of unresolved issues that had to be dealt with sooner or later. And, you know, I was poor, then I was rich, and then I was a drug addict because none of it made me comfortable. None of it was the answer. All the things that we're looking for are internal. All the best things in your life are free. You think that money would make you happier than. And going home and hugging your children and being with your wife and, like, having dinner together and, like, having the kids all clowning around and teasing each other and, like, just all the fun of having a family. Like, we go around the table anytime we have family dinner, and my wife asks them, like, what were your roles and doing for the day? Like, what happened good and what happened bad? And then we talk about them like, oh, I had a lot of times, the kids, they're very positive kids. They'll be like, here's my rose. I did this. I got a good grade. Great. And I didn't have any thorns today. I had a great day. So then I always make a big deal. I'm like, tensei had a great day. When they were kids, they had plates that said tensei had a great day. A dinner plate that she would use for them. And I'll be like, you know, now they're teenagers. I'm like, shell, get the plates. Get the tensei had a great plate day.

[B]

Teenage daughter hates it, every second of it.

[A]

I'm sure they become different people. She's like, dad, just for a long time, she'd be like, if I was dropping them off, like, dad, you just dropped me off here. I was like, tensei, I know exactly what you're doing. If you think that I'm not gonna drive you right up to you of friends, you're out. And the if I've done anything right in my life with this book coming out. And some of the attention that it's garnered has been. I'm not going to get choked up here, but it's been the greatest gift that I've ever given to myself and to my children. They're so proud of me. I. I can't even put into words. They're like, dad, can you sign books for all my friends? Dad, can you sign books for my teachers? And I'm like, are they asking or are you just offering? They're like, no, no, they're. They asked Mr. So and so. Who's one of the. I coached the local cross country team. I was the assistant coach.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

Which, by the way, we destroyed. There's two. There's two high schools in my. What?

[B]

You guys, what? Weird.

[A]

There's two high schools in my town, Ravenwood and Brentwood. My kids go to Ravenwood. They're both great schools. Brentwood is, you know, another mile away from my house. But their girls cross country team was. I mean, four of the girls were going Division 1 on scholarships, which in cross country is big deal. So the guy who was the coach, I just knew him from running in the neighborhood. He's really good runner. And he was like, hey, man, do you want to come help out coach the cross country team? I was like, I would love to. Had to go through the whole process of getting, like, fingerprints. Like, it was tons of training to be working with kids. It was involved, which is a good thing. And so I started helping them. And I go down there and it's like, the kids are from the suburbs and they're like, you know, a little bit more conservative. And I come to in like, with like, more like a fighter's mentality. And I'm like, guys, don't give these kids anything. You got to get out there, set the tone, be aggressive when you're in those turns. Give nothing. Hold your lane. Don't be afraid to be physical. This is racing. Racing isn't about like. We're not trying to, like, win a tickling contest here. Show them who you are. I said these. They were like, oh, we might be late tomorrow because there's the homecoming football team. I was like, never mind this. We might be be late. Do you think that those football kids are going to come watch your damn track meet then? Don't you dare to condescend to those guys and let them. Or defer to them and let them set the tone. Like, for you, your race is much more important to you. Than anyone else is to theirs. You have to believe that. And I would just get fired up and I'd be like, don't you effing give these guys anything? And the other coach would be like. Because he'd always be like, ken, you want to hype them up? And I'll be like, I'm not a rah rah guy. But I would just talk to them. And I'm like, it's pretty rah rah. Well, I wouldn't be like screaming, yelling. I'd be talking to them firmly, like, guys, you think you're a shit runner, you think you're a nerd, you think these guys are tougher, then let them beat you. But if you believe that you're tougher than them and you can kill these guys, then go out there and do that. And dude, they were so good. I never been to a cross country meet in my life. There was one girl, she was a sophomore. She finished, I don't know, fifth in the state, right? And we had the top three finishers, twins, going to Georgetown in Dartmouth, because actually, I think Rob knows Ben True, who's married to Sarah Groff, who went to the Olympics, finished fourth. So Sarah Groff, who's my friend, I'm really close with her husband, Ben true, who finished fourth at the Olympic trials. So in the 10k and the 5k was heartbreaking. And then Sarah goes to the Olympics and finished fourth in the triathlon at the Olympics. So devastating. But Ben was a nasty runner, like, sub 60 minute half marathon, and he was obsessed with the NASCAR. So a friend of mine Landing Castle drove in NASCAR. So one day, and Ben's, like, very introverted. He doesn't socialize. He's, like, very rarely on social media. So I bring him with me to a NASCAR race in the pits in, like, weird full access. And anyway, long story short, the girls are getting recruited and she says, oh, I met your friend Ben True. He's one of the coaches at Dartmouth. And I text him a picture of me and the girl. I'm like, yo, you trying to recruit my girl? And she's like, oh, you like Ben? And she decides to go there. And I was like, I got you an athlete. Like, my. My decision didn't matter, but it was. It was just fun to see, like, this connection in the runner world that all of a sudden I was like, oh, my God. I'm like, actually in the running world, like, to a certain extent. Right. I never felt like I was a real runner. Yeah, the girls win the states, but this girl's coming in a big track in one of the regional track meets, and she comes around and I want to say she might have been in second or third in the race. And she looks at me really nice, so mature. Like, these girls were like young women in high school. She looks at me and I go, don't you dare give up. There was like 100, 200 yards to go. I go, you go get her right now. She's fading. And I like, the girl looks fine. I go, don't you dare let her beat you. You can catch her. And she's like, had 10 yards. She looked at me and she's like, I got it. Takes off and wins. And I was like, dude. I was like ready to cry. I was like, I come run over. I get her a hug. I'm like, you did it. I'm so proud of you. I just, I love these kids. It was so much fun. I had the greatest time ever. But anyway, all that to say the coach. Some of my kids teachers are the coaches at Ravenwood, so they know me. And I'd see them at the thing, and of course all the parents are like, man, you're a traitor. Why aren't you at Ravenwood? And I would say, same thing I'd say to them, same thing I'd tell everyone else, because that guy asked me to help and no one else over here asked me. I'd much rather be at my. My kids school.

[B]

I was at Cal state Fullerton for 13 years. Yeah, I didn't work with a single athlete there.

[A]

Why?

[B]

No one asked me.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

I mean, I had a very famous major league baseball player. I can't remember who it was. And Cal State Fullerton was very good at baseball. Several national championships, like, very, very good there. And I had a pretty good roster of major league baseball players at the time. And they asked her, like, oh, are you doing all the stuff for the baseball team? And I was like, no, literally none. And then they asked it and like, this came up and he was like, why? And I was like, no one's ever asked. And I'm like, I'm right here in your hall. I'm just in the same hallway as you. Not to sound as arrogant as possible, but I'm like, I don't know. We got. We got a good. A pretty good track record of major league baseball players. And then not a single one that nobody ever sort of asked.

[A]

Not that I mentor people or I'm not looking for mentoring. I love everyone. I have four children. I have all the Mentees that I need.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But being able to impact other people out there and having people follow me on social media and, like, the messages that I've received. I was telling my wife, I'm like, I would never take someone's message and just post it. Be like, look at this. But the book, the messages of support and everything that I have received with regards to the book has been like. I mean, I've cried multiple times. I send them to my wife, and she's like, we have to make a book of these things where people like, man, this really changed my outlook on life. It's been so impactful. Like, it's been just a dream come true. But I'm sorry to get sidetracked on that when we were talking about coaching and mentoring, but I absolutely love being able to help young kids. Like, I've spoken to a number, all the different local football teams. And it's always funny because I'm like, I can't tell if this is resonating because I think some of the parents might be like, this guy from Boston is down here talking to these kids from Tennessee, and he's got a different attitude than a lot of other people. It's not so screaming and yelling. There might be a few curse words, just a few accidentally mixed in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm telling them stories of resilience and addiction and what being a loser looks like and, like, how close I say to them, like, dude, no one here is going to look at me or research anything about me and be like, that guy's a loser. But I can tell you, I spent 10 years ideating on suicide because I was in such a desperate state. I was so in need of help, and I didn't know how to get it. And instead of asking for help and doing the hard, I spent 10 years trying to fix it myself. And I got news for you. A lot of times, we can't fix these things ourselves. And my son was struggling with school, my oldest son. And I was like, hey, buddy. Just like they would tell you in addiction treatment. I said, you can't do this on your own. Right? I said, you're having a hard time figuring out. He was like, yeah, I can't do it. I go, it's okay. I couldn't do a lot of things by myself. And in a lot of ways, I've started this faith journey recently. And what you realize is, is like, no matter how much success I've had, no matter how many things, if there's still a void there, the outside opinions in the outside world doesn't matter. What matters is what's inside. And if you feel a void. And I've tried everything from drugs to endurance and everything else. And I have finally, like, I'm watching people on their faith journey, and I'm like, they seem to have something that I don't have, but it looks like they have peace that I don't have. So I've started to, like, explore this and talking to a pastor and to bring it back to what I was saying to my son is like, when you realize you can't do something on your own. And I think that this is an important message for everyone. Sometimes you just have to reach out and ask for help. And if you're in a position to help. To me, the greatest gift that I've received as a result of my experiences winning, overcoming addiction, the greatest gift that I've received is the ability to impact other people and to be of service to other people. And listen, I'm not out here fucking campaigning for a Mr. Nice Guy award. I don't care if you don't like me. You're never gonna like me. I don't care. But I will tell you that there is no greater reward than being of service to other people. It's not just words. It's. It's truth. Think about giving Christmas presents. When you see your kids get the presents that they want, or you're able to give your wife or a friend something that they just look at, and it has all me. It's not monetary value. It's meaning versus the feeling you get when someone gives you something you really want. Like, hey, here's a brand new $100,000 Rolex. You're like, wow, that's awesome. And two weeks later, you're like, yeah, I have a cool watch. Doesn't really. My life's the same. But when you can impact someone else by doing something, either of service, providing a service for them, giving them something that means something in their life, that is the greatest gift in the world. And if I've learned anything through this process, it's that being able to help other people is much more important than anything you could win or do for yourself. So for what it's worth, like, know that this all comes back to the suffering. It's not winning the race. It's the process of preparing for the race. It's race day itself. When we adopted my daughter, I said to. I complained the whole time. When we were living in Ethiopia, my wife lived there for two months. I was there for a Week we stayed in a guest house. The bed had no mattress. It was just a box spring.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Basically hardwood floor.

[B]

Oh, this is your nightmare.

[A]

I was like, this is terrible. I could. My poor wife. I. I had to go to, like, a local.

[B]

We'll find out who's tough real fast.

[A]

I had to go to, like, a local, like, hardware store and buy an egg crate thing in Addis Ababa and put it on the mattress. But now we'll be walking, and I'll smell like a campfire or, like, wood burning from a fireplace. And I'm like, oh, my God, you smell that, dude? Reminds me of Ethiopia. It's so romantic. It just brings back such good memories. She's like, you complained every freaking day we were there. And I was like, yes. Just like I would complain about getting ready for a race. Just like I would complain about how hard it was. But when you have that experience, no one can ever take that away from you. And there's something romantic about the suffering you went through. When I think about the race in Mongolia, it was miserable. I hated every second of it. But now I can laugh about thinking sitting around the campfire at night with all the people trying to get warm and talking. And the funniest story from that whole Mongolia. You could volunteer for the race and then get in the following year. So you would. It was like a big caravan that would travel from camp to camp. So there was a group of Italian guys that were frigging awesome. I wish I could remember the names of everyone, but they were awesome. And one of them had an adult son who was in the traveling caravan who was like, race support. One night, they're sitting there like, I can. You want a piece of Parmesan cheese from Italy? And I go, can we swear on here? I mean, I swore already. Yeah, we did.

[B]

We're a little past that point, but okay.

[A]

I was like, you motherfuckers brought a Parmesan wheel. I'm like, who's carrying this? Who's carrying a wheel of Parmesan cheese? It wasn't like a crumb. It was like a chunk of. And I think that. And then freshly shaved. And then he goes, yeah, put some olive oil on it. And he pulls out, like, a mini bottle of olive oil. Oil. I'm like, you brought olive oil? You even brought the bottle. You didn't think to put it in plastic? I'm like, none of this makes sense. You're not supposed to have outside bending the rules. I think that the sun. But again, they weren't trying to win. So they were just there for the experience.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then after the 50 mile stage, we stayed in the most picturesque little camp. And there was a creek, but there's livestock everywhere. So I come on, I'm like, I'm getting in that creek. I get in the creek, wash my clothes off, and immediately I'm like high and rash everywhere. I'm like, oh, my God. This. The creek is polluted, but it looks good. I come back a couple hours later and the Italian guys are in there. Guys, this, it's a coed race. The guy's completely naked in the, in the creek. So open up. I go, yo, dude. I think that there's like bacteria. And in that, in that creek, he couldn't care less. Next day, everyone covered in rashes. But the way that those guys were just so carefree and having fun. They were all from the Dolomites, and it was just so refreshing to be like, to laugh with those guys every night about the parmesan cheese. I'm like, if one of you guys has a fucking pizza. That's where I'm drawing the line. I'm calling the. I'm calling the race officials because that's what I was waiting for. Them. It's like, pull out a frigging meatball hero or something. After the fact, I romanticized the suffering. But in the moment, it's like, but it's like getting your PhD. I'm sure there were days where you're like, I'm never going to be able to. I'm never going to. To do this dissertation. I'm never going to pass. Like, you have these moments of doubt and then you reflect back on it and you're just like, yeah, it was something that I did, but at the time, it was probably the most difficult thing. And that's like, reflective of everything in life. The best things are going to be hard, but if you can do them, you'll have a life of memories and experiences that can never be taken away from you.

[B]

It's a weird part of the psyche, this camaraderie thing you hear from military people in your world. It's, it's the, the time in between the races or on the race. Right. It's probably when somebody beat you that you, like, gives you the biggest smile.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For us, it's. It's the campfire. It's not even necessarily the thought, you know, you got an animal or you didn't. Right. It's just the fact that you suffered all this time, and that's the part you laugh at 10 years later. Like, remember when this thing broke and we had to do walk this whole damn thing?

[A]

And, well, the training that you do with the people. And like, the amount of things that Rob Moore and I have done together. It's like there's. If you told me, oh, we're going to go here and you and this guy are going to share a hotel room, I'd be like, there's not a chance I'm sharing a room with a guy. Rob and I have shared hotel rooms like hundreds of times. We've suffered through so many things. We've been in crazy races, delayed flights. We've been in some scenarios where we like it. I love, like, I mean, you were with dinner with us last night. I never laugh so hard as when I get together with Rob after a while because of all the suffering, incomplete, oddball things we've done, like Iron Man's all over the world.

[B]

And it's the same thing with my friend Dan because we've done such wildly irresponsible things, just like objectively idiotic maneuvers. And 90 plus percent of the time they paid off. Yeah, right. It worked. And then there's 10% where it just was pure suffering and just delusion.

[A]

No one can take experiences away from you. I really hope that people listening take this away. It's not about going Mongolia and winning. It's about having the balls to go to Mongolia and try to do that. I did a race in Kenya the following year that I came in third in running and like seeing giraffes while I'm running in elephants, it's like those experiences are mine forever. When I think back on my time in London, I made millions of dollars. I had all this fancy the stuff, cool. It comes and goes. No one can ever take away the fact that I was in, like, landed in a helicopter on that crazy hotel in Dubai, the Burj Al Arab, when it was brand new, landed on the helicopter landing pad that I went to Venice and stayed at the Cipriani Hotel. And okay, I was like, whacked out idiot on drugs and spending money like a drunken sailor. But you can't. I stayed in every four seasons in Europe. At one point I was like, I just loved it. I loved experiencing life and making up for like, what I didn't have as a child. And I look back, like, with such fondness. I had incredible experience. Experiences.

[B]

Do you know the name Henry Rollins?

[A]

Yeah, of course. The heavy metal, like, black flag musician. Awesome.

[B]

Few people know he's actually a huge weightlifter.

[A]

Yes. No, no, he's super fit. I mean, all you have to do is look at him be like, this guy's a freak.

[B]

Strength training, like just huge lover of it. He wrote this essay probably 25 years ago called the Iron. I love it. But after that he, he put a little thing out where he talked about how he doesn't have to talent. He has tenacity.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

I hear you say things like you just said and it resonates with me a lot personally because we share, you know, many things in our, in our past that are similar. Including like, I was not a good student and I tried. I was there. I was not on anything else. Like just, there's just not that much.

[A]

I hope people are absorbing that. That a guy who's like a well respected, world renowned, like sports scientist, PhD trainer to stars, like realized like, I wasn't a good student and I wasn't a good runner and a lot of the things that we weren't good at. But at some point I was like, I'm going to be the best and you can't stop me. And I don't know what, you have to create enemies or you have to create this impression of yourself, but I think that we're both. And I'm sorry to interrupt an example of the only person that can tell you anything about you is. And if you believe that, you'll understand. And if you don't and you dismiss me like f, this guy is just talking shit, cool. You can do that too. We need people to be in second place. So keep having that mentality that it's all bullshit. But we're here to tell you, both of us are an example. Like, it's very hard. Talent cannot beat grit. When grit keeps showing up every day and talent just takes days off, you're gonna fail.

[B]

You failed. I failed tall tons. I would often get lost in that personally. Right. The fail is the end of the road, 100%. And you hear those things. And I would always misunderstand what failure meant. To me. It was the expectation that you're going to fail, you lose. Okay, fine. Like where I grew up, no one was that worried about failing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I was fortunate. The community I was around was like, you would never steal. That was like an unacceptable thing. We would lose all the time because we just weren't much of a middle road sort of people. We won a lot sports wise, but you know what I'm saying, right? But those things were there. It's like, you don't steal. Why? Because that's the shortcut.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you don't take from people who can't, like, all those things. So I had that, and then I had the tenacity piece, which is like, if you want something, it's never going to happen unless you outwork all those city kids.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Right. Like, because those city kids have all the advantage. And that was our enemy. Right. Real or not, we created that enemy.

[A]

That's what you have to do to get out.

[B]

Right. Like, that's how we're going to get there throughout Tenacity. I think that's true. Personally, I can think back to a billion lessons I learned in sports that gave me any shot of being a professional, because I had no concept of the real world. I had never met a lawyer.

[A]

Yeah. No.

[B]

I didn't know what a PhD was. Like, I had no clue what those things were. I'd never met anybody famous. I never met anybody who'd met anybody famous. Like, I had no idea. Like, everyone where I'm from is just like, that's just not. Now. I probably knew somebody that was a lawyer, but, like, I didn't know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I had no idea of knowing that. So as we kind of wind down here, like, what. What I'm trying to transition into this is when you have that lost feeling, like you don't even know where to get going and where to start. You found that in certain places, Paths. I found that in a certain path. The path doesn't matter. But any advice, any help you could give for someone who's even pre that step, like, I don't even know where to start this thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do I get going?

[A]

That's a great question. And like, a great place to, like, kind of wind down is to say, take everything that I've explained here and that I explained in the book and recognize, like, I had no plan. I just tried to show up and represent myself with the attitude that I was someone to be respected. I almost commanded respect to a certain point. I didn't always get it. It wasn't always easy. But if you're expecting things to be easy, like, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. It's like I said earlier, the road, the easy road, never, ever pays well. Everything you want is going to go down the path of least resistance, the paths of maximum resistance. Because if it was easy, what you would try to do as easy, every asshole would already have done it. It wouldn't be novel. It wouldn't be novel to win a race. If anyone could do it. It wouldn't Be novel to get your PhD. If you could just decide you wanted. I want a PhD. Okay. Here you go. For sale. No. It takes an incredible amount of grit and determination. I studied sociology in college. I ended up becoming a finance guy working on trading desks. I made a lot of money in finance. I wouldn't say that that's the answer, but my point is, is stop worrying about being perfect right now. The same thing goes with running. Like, you prescribed these workouts for the week. Like, dude, don't agonize over whether you hit all the splits or did show up and do all the workouts. Some days you're going to have days where you're like, dude, I couldn't run two on 100. Two eight hundreds. I couldn't do the 10. I had to put it off to another day. I've done that a lot. One thing that my coach, Mario Frioli, got really well at is he provided a roadmap. I have to get from A to B. Guess what? There was a detour over here. So I had to go a long way around. I couldn't do my long run on Saturday. I did it the following Monday. So we adjust some of the little workouts, but the point is, in life, you're never going to get. There's never going to be a straight line from where you are to where you want to go. Don't stress that. Just make sure that you're continuing to move the ball down the field. Meaning are you taking steps this week? And I know people get a feel like, I got 1% better. Like, fucking be realistic. You're gonna have bad days. You're gonna have days where you're just like, you know what? I'm checking out. I need a mental health day. I mean, I don't do this very often, but I wish I could is to be like, you know what? I just need a day by myself. The time that I spent in On Site, which is a trauma healing center that people can read about in the books, was one of the most important weeks of my life. I hated every second of it. I was joking with my roommate, who was Eric Decker, the NFL receiver. I had the schedule hanging on the wall, and I'd crossed the sessions off that we do. Like, I was in prison. And he thought it was hilarious. And I was like, dude, we're almost out of here. But I paid $10,000 to go there. So it wasn't like I was trying to avoid anything. I was just trying to make light of it. But again, to summarize in the point that I'm trying to make is like, just take responsibility for yourself. No one is going to do for you what you have to do for yourself. And if they did, it wouldn't be a noble cause and it wouldn't really matter. Anyone that can do the work for you, then what you're trying to accomplish isn't that important. Because all the things that I did and all the things that you did, no one could do those things for you. That is what you have to realize is like, no one. You cannot fake your way through certain things. You can show up and pretend, but, you know, if you're giving your best effort and if you're advancing the ball, like I said, down the field a little bit every week, none of this happens if I don't take responsibility for myself. Get sober, show up every day. You can't imagine what can happen to you if you just deliver your best effort. And it might not take. It might take longer than you think, longer than you hope. My story was the longest overnight success anyone's ever heard of. I toiled for years in darkness and anonymity until someone was like, wow, that guy's a pretty good runner. And then when people thought I was a good runner and Rich Roll had me on his podcast and people started to hear my story, they were like, oh, this guy's got an interesting story too. And I started to get better at running and the story started telling to, like, get in front of more people. And I got a book deal. It's just, I wish that I could tell someone, this is how you do it. But if you're hearing anything in this, recognize there is no roadmap for success. There is no straight line. Everyone's on their own journey, and the only thing that you can control is your effort.

[B]

Couldn't think of a better way to end. I want to summarize some of my biggest take homes. And this was not a direct theme in your book, but this is what I pulled. I actually wrote this note, note down and sent this to everybody that, that I work with. It was very clear and when we started getting into this. But you got from this 3:30 marathon, which doesn't matter. Its point is average. You were as average and you spent the first, I don't know, 25 years of your life well below average in life, in circumstances and all those things. So a Fairly average start, 3:30. And then you got just with grit and just with effort and consistency, you got to 2:30 pace. Well, just 233. Okay, cut an Hour off. Anyone can access that with any phrase of their life, as you've said many times now. But it did take you to bring in Mario to go from 233 to 229. And so I think that 228. Steepest and sincere.

[A]

You know the effort it takes to get from 29 to 28.

[B]

Yeah. That minute matters.

[A]

Make sure we. It took a shitload of effort.

[B]

The story for me out of that was, you can probably get the first 90% there, definitely. But you probably do need extra help to finish.

[A]

You don't need help doing your dissertation for your PhD until you've done all the work leading up to it, which no one could do for you, and no one could help you. The amount of work that I did to get to 233 was essentially 10 miles a day. Day. And once a week for 12 weeks, I'd run 18 to 22 miles as a workout. Me, I would structure it as a progression run. I'd start running. I know I got to run 20 miles is. And I'm going to go faster each mile. Not like super diligent. Some days it didn't work out, but as a theme. And when I felt good, I ran as hard as I could on the 10 milers. Sometimes I'd run 15, sometimes I'd run 12, never less. And when I felt terrible and I needed recovery, I just run some. And when I hear people like, I need a coach. I've never run a marathon. I'm like, you don't need a coach. You need to run. People ask me all the time, what should I do? I'm trying to get from, you know, 250 to 245. I'm like, run more. That's it. And people would like. I'd read articles on slow twitch. Like, to get to this level of marathon, you need to be at the track. You need to do this workout. I'm like, I never comment and talk shit on the Internet. But I wanted to be like, no, you don't. You need just to show up and put in volume. It's like getting PhD. You need to study I a lot. Don't worry about how you study and what you're studying. Just study a lot, absorb a lot of information, and I hope that that's what people recognize. I got to 233, and then I couldn't break through two. Third, I was getting better. Like 258, 245, 240, 233 over a few years. And then it was like 234, 235. And I was like exasperated. I'm like, I can't do this. Brought in Mario, went right to 228 and then ran under 230 like four or five times. After I turned 50, 50, I ran 230 flat. Three or four times in Boston, I ran 230, 25. And then, you know, I, I win the age group. Call my wife. I did it. I won the age group. She's like, great job. I'm like, yeah, but I ran 23025. I'm like, you know, I'm like, you know how pissed I am? She's like, why didn't you sprint the last section? I go, that was me sprinting from 20 to 26 miles. That was me sprinting for a long time.

[B]

So again, I hopefully that story is accessible. We keep using that kind of a phrase because it is. You can get. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. When you're starting like the most, don't worry about the perfect diet or business plan or the way you're going to have the conversation. Whatever it has to happen, just move and we can get precision later. And we probably want that sooner than maybe you jumped in on coaching.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

We would have done that earlier. We would advocate probably for a little bit of a different strategy than you're currently using.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

But I don't want people to think, oh, throw out all the stuff and just go on instinct. That's not the case. No. Of course the message is don't let that little stuff get in the way of moving the mountain. Like, you got to build the thing first and we can polish this thing up a little bit later. So I have to ask at the very kind of very end here, I want to know. I'm going to go run my first marathon. Besides all the things you've covered and all the wisdom, any specific tiny little trips? Because you've said this several times, you don't know. You don't know.

[A]

I got you.

[B]

What should someone, someone think about or pay attention to when they're going to do their first ever marathon?

[A]

Great question. I would say fueling early and often. Don't wait till you're hungry to eat something. Don't wait for your thirsty to drink something. I would take water at every single aid station I do, depending on how hot it is. The hotter the is, the more you drink. If it's freezing cold, you don't have to be as diligent, but water, Gatorade, water Gatorade for the hydration strategy. And I would make sure I'm getting calm calories at least every 30 minutes. Like, I like Morton's gels. No sponsorship with them or partnership because they're like, it's great. They're great.

[B]

They're made for runners by. For distance. People, like, engineered by that. Yep.

[A]

And I would also say I have a little caffeine in the morning to just stay on my routine and to get like, bowel movements going in the morning. Stay. Keep everything normal and consistent with my training. Keep everything consistent, just like a training week. And then hitting calories every four miles, 30 minutes. And then around 20, 18 to 20 miles, I start introducing caffeinated gels. You will notice a big difference if you can cut down on caffeine the week leading up to the race and you start hitting big caffeine at 20 miles, the halfway point in the marathon. No matter what anyone thinks, whatever, throw away every preconceived notion you have. Halfway point is 20 miles. When you get to 20, you're halfway there. Because that last 10 10k is difficult.

[B]

Everybody says it's 19. It's about 19 to 21. The death.

[A]

It's the truth. It doesn't have to be the death. There is nothing better than racing the last 10k of a marathon. Meaning you are drilling it. Matter of fact, when I ran the Tokyo Marathon was one of the best experiences of my life. When I finished the race, I was looking at Strava, and for one of the last two or three kilometers at the time, I had the kom, the fastest segment ever by anyone who's run through that. You have to be on Strava. And a lot of the pros are. I ran faster one of those last 3km than anyone else had ever run in that marathon. I was like, I. I don't know what my time was, but One of those Ks was like, probably close to 5:30 pace at the finish of a marathon. And it was across the finish line. I'm like jogging back to the hotel versus a235 in Berlin. And I was like basically in an ambulance. So the race is that you execute perfectly, you're not destroyed at the end. So. And trust me, it is so much fun racing the last 10k versus surviving. So that's my advice.

[B]

Hydrate early, fuel early before you, and then save stimulants till that 18 to 20 mile mark and then full send

[A]

and then just block everything else out of. Yes, of course it's hard. Yes. Yep. You probably have A blister, no big deal. You're not going to die. And I always say, like, when will Dietrain? I'm like, I don't think I can die from running a race. I just don't think so. Yeah, I really don't. And I also say this. There's medics all over the course. Like, if you go down, they'll help you. And if you were going to die from running, you might be. Probably should die anyway. Like, you probably have health ailments that were undiagnosed. And, like, let's expedite the discovery of said problem. But no, I'm kidding. I don't hope to that no one dies. Like, it's not a joke. But I would say, get out there and push it. Your body can take a lot more than you think it can.

[B]

I have a complete inability to scroll past any of your Instagram posts without watching the whole thing. Like, I can't.

[A]

You have no idea how happy that makes me. You know how much I agonize over Instagram posts. I have to give a shout out to my man, Rafael Volgati. He is a Swiss, young Swiss guy. I met him. He's like, hey, I want to make content for you. Like, everyone on Instagram. Like, I can't stand Dan's solicitations on Instagram. And I said to him, like, listen to it. I'm not spending money on, like, a thing. You want to make some videos for me, be my guest. He made the videos. Probably would have charged me X. I paid him X too, because I was like, this is quality work. If you can help me with Instagram, I'm happy to pay for services. But again, an example of someone who's willing to lead with service. Lead with, let me show you what I can do, and then you decide what it's called worth. If you're not afraid to lead with service and show people what you can do, they're never going to come in and just be like, yeah, okay, I'll pay you a shitload of money for something that you say you can do. I like paying for results, not effort.

[B]

Fair enough. Well, you've clearly given an enormous amount of effort in your life, and today I actually have a bunch of more questions I want to get into. But you got to get to a book launch, man.

[A]

Hell, yeah.

[B]

Got to get out of here. Thank you so much. The story is incredible. I actually, legitimately, I think I honestly can say this. It's the only memoir I think I've ever read in my life. Oh, my God, I don't read them. Like I'm just like, whatever your story, I get it. But I couldn't put it down. Literally. Can't wait to get out of here and tomorrow on the plane I'm gonna read the last five pages, see how the story is.

[A]

You have to tell me what you think.

[B]

Thank you so much. The book is incredible. You're awesome. Great.

[A]

Thank you for having me. I appreciate you guys and thanks to everyone for tuning in. I'd love to be of service to anyone who needs help, so don't email me crazy and ask me to have a phone call with you. But if I can help with anything, please let me know.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Boom.

[B]

Thank you for joining for today's episode. My goal, as always, is to share exciting scientific insights that help you perform at your best. If the show resonates with you and you want to help ensure this information remains free and accessible to anyone in the world, there are a few ways that you can support. First, you can subscribe to the show on YouTube, Spotify and Apple. And on Apple and Spotify, you can leave us up to a five star review. Subscribing and leaving a review really does help us a lot. Also, please check out our sponsors. The show would not exist without them and their exceptional products and services. Finally, you can share today's episode with a friend who you think would enjoy it. If you have any content, questions or suggestions, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I really do try my best to read them all and to see what you have to say. I use my Instagram and X profiles also exclusively for scientific communications communication. So those are great places to follow along for more learning. My handle is drandygalpin on both platforms. We also have an email newsletter that distills all of our episodes in the most actionable takeaways. We have newsletters on how to improve fitness in VO2 Max, how to build muscle and strength, and much more. To subscribe to the newsletter, just go to performpodcast.com and click newsletter. It's completely free and we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you for listening and never forget, in the famous words of Bill Bell Powerman, if you have a body, you are an athlete.