← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
295. Perfect Content Fails, Raw Content Scales: Building a 1.9M Following w/ Ryan Stygar
00:21:44
The legal industry is dominated by aggressive advertising and hard sells. But what if the key to standing out is to stop selling altogether? Ryan Stygar reveals how he built a seven-figure following by educating and entertaining his audience.
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- [00:00]
A
Do not let your practice area limit you.
- [00:08]
B
Today's guest built a following of over a million people by doing something radically different. He stopped selling. Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind, the show where ambitious attorneys come to learn, implement, and get results. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the SEO agency of choice for elite personal injury law firms. As a former firefighter turned employment lawyer, Ryan's built an incredible practice by educating instead of advertising. And his insights are pure gold for PI firms looking to stand out. What I love about this conversation is Ryan's raw honesty about his journey. He was actually rejected from 13 law schools before finding his path and had to figure out marketing when he had a zero budget and zero followers. Now he's crushing it. Whether you're spending six figures on marketing or just getting started, you're about to learn why being real beats fear being polished. How to know which content actually converts and why competing with big firms on their terms is a losing game. Let's dive in.
- [01:00]
A
I call it the anti sell. People don't like being sold to, but they love being educated. They love feeling like when I see this guy on my page, he's not trying to take anything from me. He's not willing to lie and cheat and steal and do whatever it takes to get my signature on his retainer agreement. Like, this is a guy who looks out for me. And here's the cool thing, Chris. I built relationships with hundreds of thousands of these long time followers. There's people who followed me since 21 who are still here. They don't have a case today, maybe they don't have one tomorrow. But I'll tell you what, if anything work related happens in any of their family or even 2 degrees of separation out, I'm the first name they're going to talk about.
- [01:36]
B
That's so different than the bottom of the funnel, the hard ask, like hire me now. It's so accustomed in the legal profession and it turns a lot of people off. Owning a firm is a second career for you. So let's take it back. Take me back to the former life as a firefighter and how that led to law school.
- [01:54]
A
I was actually a firefighter for longer than I've been a Lawyer still. On January 14, 2025, I will celebrate an anniversary where I will have been a lawyer for one day longer than I've been a firefighter. So that was my first career. It's all I ever wanted. There's a lot to love about the profession and I miss it dearly. I truly think about it every day. But, you know, I was going past my fourth year, and I was at a fire, and I remember hiking up this hill with one of my captains at the time. And it was the saddest thing, Chris. I was walking up and I looked at him, and I just had this moment of clarity where I realized he's making about $30,000 more a year than I am, but he's doing the same job. One of the hardest things about being a firefighter for me was I got a reputation of my family for being unreliable, being a flake, and it's because I just couldn't control the fire season. I realized as a firefighter, as honorable and noble as the profession was, and as much as I love it and miss it, it limits your opportunities because, you know, I. I couldn't really control where I could go or what locations I could live in. So it was probably one of the hardest decisions I made. But I'm confident now. Having started. Started in my practice, it was the right call.
- [03:08]
B
How did you land on law school? You know, you had all these options, like, talk to me about that.
- [03:14]
A
It's so easy to look at attorney Ryan with all the followers and the settlements and the money and think, oh, my God, this guy's just got it all figured out. I didn't. When I first left the fire service, I did not do great on the LSAT. I applied to 13 law schools. I got into zero. At that moment, Chris, I thought that I had irreversibly fucked my life up. I thought I had made the biggest, most horrible mistake and ruined my life. And for about a year and a half, two years, I drifted for a bit. I worked in an office. I sold coffee door to door. I worked for a landscaping company. I drove for Uber. You know, things got dark a bit there, but I applied again. And then at 27, 28 is when I got into Cal west, who offered me a scholarship. And that's when things started to turn.
- [03:57]
B
Around for many of the audience listening right there, maybe working for another firm or they're in like a. Like a bootstrap type of scenario where they're not getting private equity or VC funding. Talk to me about, you know, the early days that the low budget for marketing, kind of how it's progressed over time. I mean, you got over a million followers on TikTok these days, and you a huge, robust following. But, like, talk me through some of maybe the milestones and the progression of your marketing.
- [04:24]
A
Just to be clear about the early days, I didn't have any experience. I didn't have any followers yet, but I did have about $400. Things were not good. So. But here's the thing. You shouldn't shy away from being on a shoestring budget. You shouldn't let that deter you because scarcity breeds innovation. Here's what I decided to do because I had been an avid consumer of social media for so many years. I knew what I liked and what I listened to. So what I wanted to do was be an educator. I knew from being a working class person for so long all the myths that I've heard in an office. I've worked in a blue collar environment. I've worked in an office and I've heard all the lies that management and HR tells you. I had an opportunity to get on there and just say, hey, here's what happens if you work overtime and your boss says it wasn't approved and they refused to pay you. What do you do if your wife's about to give birth and you want to be there to see your child get born? How do you get the time off to do that? Because I'll tell you what, no one's going to give a shit in 20 years that you pulled overtime at the office and filed your TPS reports on time. But they will give a shit that you were there for your wife to see your child get born. You know that the priorities that I learned kind of the hard way early in fire. You know, I don't even remember all the fires I went to, but I do remember each and every wedding I missed. Now what does that have to do with this? I try to spread not just an awareness about people's rights, but also a message about having a healthy relationship with work. And one thing that I think has set my marketing aside, I'm not just, oh, these are your rights. Call us if they're violated. If you look at my page, you're never going to see a seller. You'll see one tile at the top of my grid that just says California's labor lawyer with a number on it. That way, if someone comes to my page, they know who I am. But you'll never see one where I say, call this number. You may be entitled to compensation. We fight for you, blah, blah. I don't do that shit. I tell people what their rights are and I share my opinions about our relationship with work.
- [06:18]
B
Being an educator, being helpful, answering questions like, how do you balance your content strategy? Is it all like, you know, being helpful? You've got one consumer type of in mind, like the person that's been wrong, you know, in the workplace or you know, what goes into your strategy when you're creating your like, content calendar.
- [06:37]
A
I'm just out here doing what feels right. Just being true to myself and being authentic is working out pretty well for me. The big pushback I get from PI lawyers is, well, Ryan, your. Your practice area is easy. Everyone has a job. So obviously your stuff is killing. I'm much smaller than law by Mike's. I am much smaller, much smaller than legal Eagle and they do great and they just talk about basic legal issues because those stories are interesting. Tell us what's going on in the Diddy case. Tell us what's going on in the latest must lawsuit. There's always great stuff to talk about up there. Remember, as far as the public is concerned, a lawyer is a lawyer. The same lawyer who can get you policy limits on a car accident is the same lawyer who can do your divorce and get you out of a traffic ticket. That is the public perception exception of lawyers. So just sharing content you are interested in that has something to do with law. And fortunately for us, most things in life do. You're going to do great. It your practice area is not going to hold you back. It's not.
- [07:36]
B
Look, I gotta be honest. Like, who didn't get sucked in on TikTok on the Johnny Depp? Amber heard stuff. You know, the husband and wife lawyers, I think they're in Arizona. They built a thriving TikTok following from kind of following that. That court case. And I think, you know, they're PI attorneys. They're not, you know, dealing with that type of law.
- [07:57]
A
Oh yeah. You know, following interesting court cases like that is a really good strategy because again, remember, a lawyer is a lawyer. And believe it or not, Chris, you can look like a really trustworthy, really competent attorney that they will follow just by explaining what's happening, just telling them what they're looking at and they'll go, oh my gosh, I didn't know that's how it worked. That's why that evidence didn't get in. That's why that defendant got 25 the life. You know, again, if for the PI lawyers, if you walk away with this podcast with one thing, it's do not let your practice area limit you. If you want the free marketing, if you want everything I have, you don't have to pay a marketing agency for it. Seriously, just point your phone at your face and talk about legal issues you find interesting.
- [08:42]
B
We're a digital marketing company. We don't do social media. I've always found like, like how do you outsource social media, right? The authenticity, the, like the PI attorney that wants to break into this channel, maybe they've been doing tv, radio, search and they want to get action on this. Where do you start?
- [08:58]
A
When I started, man, I was desperate. I didn't have anything. That lack of anything was going to be a real problem really soon. I was running out of money, so I got on there and I just started making long videos explaining the law to people and they bond. They did terrible. Do you know why they did so bad, Chris? For anyone watching, I put on, I got a camera, I put on a mic, I put on a suit, I stood in front of my degrees so everyone would know how important I was. And I gave a very California your circle. It was the most mind numbingly boring shit anyone's ever heard. No one wants to listen to that. But what happened was I figured out, okay, don't worry so much about looking like a lawyer or what people think a lawyer should look like. People like people and they will trust your competence if you show them you are competent. You don't have to wear the suit and do the professional lighting and have all the great edits. Your video can be a little grainy. It's okay. The lighting doesn't have to be perfect. You can be in a T shirt. All they want to see is that you know what you're talking about, you care about them, you're trustworthy and you're competent. So then how do you show competence? Honestly? The videos where I show emotion and get fired up and drop an F bomb here and there, those are the ones that tend to get seven figure views and thousands of shares and saves. And I get comments of people saying, I want a lawyer who takes my cases personally as this guy. And so to answer your question, where do you start? Ideally you start with the principle of your firm. I like to joke that my law firm, I'm not the only lawyer there, we have a team, but the law firm is McDonald's and I'm the clown. And now we know that Ronald McDonald isn't necessarily back there making burgers. He's more of the vision, you know, for the enterprise there. I have great people that I get to work with who advance these cases. And then on your profile just write seriously injured. Call this number seriously injured. Fill out this link. It's so much more simple than people think it is. I've done roundtables and coaching sessions with people and the Number one thing that holds people back is one ego. You've been successful for so long, you settled a few bin cases, you drive a nice car, you got a nice house, and the idea of sucking at something for even a minute, the idea of being a little humbled and not being great at something immediately because you've been good at shit your whole life holds people back. It's okay to fuck it up a little bit. It's okay. Release that ego. Give yourself permission to not be perfect at something. But the other thing that holds people back is overthinking it. Don't overthink it. Oh, this isn't my practice area. No one cares.
- [11:25]
B
Let's face it, being a great lawyer isn't enough to succeed. You need to generate consistent leads. Personal injury is the most saturated niche, competition is fierce and differentiation is everything. When the deck is stacked against you, you need a comprehensive resource to beat the competition. My latest book, Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing is your roadmap to consistent leads and exponential growth. It is a masterclass on marketing for personal injury firms. It's packed with actionable strategies on where to invest your marketing dollars for maximum impact. No more guesswork, no more wasted ad spend, just clear, proven methods to transform your firm from good to go. Grab your copy of Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing on Amazon. Link is in the show notes. What's your thoughts on the organic and pay? Do you pump the pieces that take off like the one that starts to that people resonate with people? Or is it this day if you don't make great content, right? You said the boring content, it's just going to bomb. Or is there like maybe a shortcut to start getting some following? Or is, or is that inorganic growth? Is that the grifters coming for a little bit? Like what's your thoughts on combining paid there?
- [12:31]
A
I will say thank God for Lina Khan and the ftc. She's an animal. I love her. It's illegal to buy fake followers now as it should have been for a long time. You don't need a million followers for people to believe that you're a great lawyer who they trust would bear case. In fact, if you have too many followers and you're too polished, you're just going to look like another corporate firm and they, they don't really know who you are. As for organic versus paid, I've used paid in the past. I don't really use it right now. It's, it's rare that I use it. I might use it if I. I know that there's a case or a potential class action out there that I really want. And I'm trying to reach a specific audience. I kind of use it as like an airstrike because you can do those posts where it's like, okay, I'm trying to hit people this age group in these geographic regions. Look at shares and saves. A save means this was so valuable. I would like to come back to this at some point. A share means this was so valuable that I want other people to see it. You just found yourself a little disciple there. You have a whole team of salespeople that are working for you for free at that point. So if you see lots of savings and shares on that thing, then, yeah, it's time to maybe consider boosting your post. Especially in the beginning if you're trying to shorten the amount of time it takes to build a following. If you're seeing a lot of saves and shares and your immediate goal is, hey, I just want to get a good core audience working with me. Very valid goal. I get that. Then go for the posts that are already doing well. And again, doing well means saves and shares, not necessarily views that earned media.
- [14:05]
B
I think, at least in the PI space, there's not a ton of firms that do it exceptionally well. You know, they've got the own media, they got the paid. You know, you look at the billboards, that's injured question mark. And it's the so generic, so, so bland. And then when you see, you know, John Morgan with his shirt off or the size matters, or the graffiti, that's the share. When the media picks it up, right? And he's getting additional distribution. So talk to me about the earned media side.
- [14:34]
A
Again, a lot of people get held back, so they overthink it. I gotta tell you, Mo, the average human being probably hasn't even heard of Morgan. And Morgan, I know that's weird for us because it's our practice area. You'd be like, what are you talking about? They're like the Google of PI. It's like, yeah, of PI. The average person doesn't know or care. And there's so many PI billboards out there that frankly, to the average person, they all blend together. They're just invisible. It's white noise. At this point. If you put five older white guys in a lineup and told me to point out which of these is Morgan and which of these is Morgan, it's cracked shoe. I don't even know what the guy looks like. He's probably a super sweet guy. I don't want to knock him or anything. The point is, I don't think he's built a personal brand. Nothing I resonate with, at least, and I'm probably not alone. And what does that tell us? Again, I hope no one takes that as a dig at him. He's clearly built a really big, successful firm, and he deserves a ton of credit for that. But in this very narrow topic we're talking about, which is building trust and free marketing and building a brand and a community, I don't think he's. He's got a strategy that you should try to emulate, unless you want to spend a ton of money and get.
- [15:39]
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Beat by him anyway.
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A
Because here's the truth. You can't compete with that guy in SEO. You can't compete with that guy in traditional media podcasting. He's going to kick your ass. I was in a panel and people are asking, how do I compete with these guys? And the answer I said was, that's like asking me how to beat Mike Tyson at boxing. You're not going to. So if you're going to fight Mike Tyson, challenge him to pickleball or chess or Scrabble, something you have a fighting chance at. Don't fight hopeless battles. There's no honor in them.
- [16:08]
B
Oh, that's such an amazing analogy. That's. That's incredible. I love the Mike Tyson. I can. I can visually see him playing pickleball, too.
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A
I just know that I have less chance of dying if I play pickleball.
- [16:19]
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With what small change has had the biggest positive impact on your firm.
- [16:26]
A
Part of the reason I think I've done so well, Chris, is what you see is what you get. One of the biggest compliments I get is people tell me that when they meet me in person, I'm exactly the way they expected to from online. Now, why does that matter? I preach a lot about work, life, balance, being less available, saying no more often, because here's the deal, your energy, it's a regenerative resource. You can always regenerate more energy, but it's like a battery. It drains, and there's only so much energy you can give every day. I've willfully and intentionally made less money because I realized that the energy and the version of myself I bring to those things, I've decided to give my energy to really, really matters. It's probably not popular advice because it goes against everything we're taught growing up, but that's really what I believe. Having been a workaholic, having been a blue collar guy, a white collar guy, the business owner who stayed up until 1am and woke up early the next day. I tried that the first part of my firm. I'm doing better now by taking care of myself.
- [17:26]
B
What an incredible conversation with Ryan. For those of you taking notes, remember his big three Educate, don't sell, authenticity beats polish. And please stop trying to outbox Mike Dyson. Challenge him to pickleball instead. If you got value from this episode, I need you to do two things. First, go follow Ryan. His handle will be in the show notes, and trust me, his content is pure gold for anyone running a law firm. Second, share this episode with another firm owner who needs to hear this message. We're all about lifting the whole industry up. And hey, if you're thinking about implementing any of what Ryan talked about, shoot me a dm. I'd love to hear what resonated with you and what you're planning to try. If you need more actionable insights, pick up a copy of my new book, Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing from Good to Go, found on Amazon. All right, everybody, thanks for hanging out. See you next time I'm out.