303. Depth Over Scale: How Bill Umansky Built a Thriving Practice by Leading Differently

Summary

Personal Injury Mastermind Episode 303: "Depth Over Scale: How Bill Umansky Built a Thriving Practice by Leading Differently"

Release Date: December 26, 2024
Host: Chris Dreyer, Rankings.io
Guest: Bill Umansky, Personal Injury Attorney

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Introduction

In Episode 303 of Personal Injury Mastermind, host Chris Dreyer engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Bill Umansky, a seasoned personal injury attorney renowned for building a thriving practice in Orlando. Bill shares his transformative journey of shifting from a traditional growth model focused on scaling numbers to a more nuanced approach prioritizing depth in relationships and leadership.

Transitioning Leadership Roles

[00:03 – 01:17]
Chris Dreyer introduces Bill Umansky, highlighting his nearly three decades of success and deep-rooted community presence in Orlando. Despite his achievements, Bill sought to unlock greater potential within his firm by altering his leadership style—emphasizing personal connections over conventional leadership patterns.

Notable Quote:

"Sometimes the biggest growth happens when you stop chasing the numbers and start investing in the depths of your relationships." — Bill Umansky [00:53]

The Importance of Depth Over Scale

[00:53 – 02:56]
Bill Umansky challenges the traditional notion of growth in law firms, advocating for "depth-wise" growth rather than merely increasing headcount or case numbers. He emphasizes the significance of working with people you genuinely want to collaborate with, especially in the legal field where personal relationships are paramount.

Key Insights:

• Depth vs. Scale: Focusing on meaningful relationships leads to sustainable growth.
• Personal Fulfillment: At 58, Bill prioritizes passion and enjoyment in his work over relentless scaling.

Notable Quote:

"I think it's growing depth wise, finding the right people and then working with people you really, really want to work with." — Bill Umansky [00:53]

Embracing a Business Mindset and Numbers

[01:17 – 05:07]
Transitioning from practicing law to a leadership role required Bill to adopt a business mindset. He candidly discusses his initial struggles with numbers and his decision to hire a CFO after decades in practice. This move allowed him to regain control over his firm's finances without sacrificing his passion for the practice.

Key Points:

• Ego and Humility: Bill reflects on overcoming his ego to recognize and appreciate the expertise of younger lawyers.
• Financial Management: Hiring a CFO, Moshe from Profit First, transformed his relationship with numbers, making financial management less daunting and more strategic.

Notable Quote:

"I don't believe you grow, you die... I think it's about working with people you really want to work with." — Bill Umansky [00:53]

Rainmaking and Networking Strategies

[05:07 – 08:26]
Bill delves into the concept of rainmaking—generating business through networking and relationship-building. He admits the exhausting nature of rainmaking but underscores its effectiveness in securing referrals and building a robust client base without heavy reliance on digital marketing.

Key Insights:

• Dual Practice Focus: Balancing between criminal law and personal injury with distinct marketing strategies.
• Delegation: Hiring business developers to emulate his networking efforts, allowing him to scale relationship-building without personal burnout.

Notable Quote:

"Rainmaking is exhausting. But it's incredibly difficult. I love it, though." — Bill Umansky [05:49]

Building and Maintaining Relationships

[09:02 – 15:01]
The discussion shifts to the critical role of building and maintaining genuine relationships within and outside the firm. Bill shares his approach to fostering connections with colleagues, clients, and community leaders without overtly asking for business, thereby creating a solid foundation for referrals and partnerships.

Key Strategies:

• Authentic Engagement: Engaging with team members and stakeholders on a personal level.
• Consistent Outreach: Hosting regular masterminds and law lunches to nurture relationships continuously.

Notable Quote:

"Good friends with some of them and I would never ask them for business. This is different from having a marketer who's just trying to get cases." — Bill Umansky [09:02]

Supporting Departing Employees

[15:01 – 21:12]
Bill emphasizes the importance of maintaining positive relationships with departing employees. He advocates for intentional and respectful interactions from the onset of employment, ensuring that former employees remain allies rather than adversaries. This approach not only preserves the firm's reputation but also opens doors for future collaborations or referrals.

Key Insights:

• Accountability and Support: Balancing holding employees accountable while supporting their future endeavors.
• Long-Term Relationships: Viewing former employees as potential partners or collaborators in the future.

Notable Quote:

"Build a bridge, don't burn it... it starts from the very beginning. How you hire them, how you communicate with them, how you value them." — Bill Umansky [15:01]

Conclusion

[21:12 – End]
Chris Dreyer wraps up the episode by highlighting Bill Umansky's unconventional approach to scaling a law firm through deep, meaningful relationships rather than sheer numbers. Bill's insights reveal that prioritizing human connections and supportive leadership can lead to sustainable growth and a thriving practice.

Final Quote:

"Bill challenges what we typically think drives law firm success... there's something more fundamental at play." — Chris Dreyer [21:12]

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Key Takeaways

1. Prioritize Depth Over Scale: Focus on building meaningful relationships within your firm and community rather than merely increasing size.
2. Embrace Financial Management: Hiring financial experts can transform your relationship with numbers and enhance business operations.
3. Effective Rainmaking: Networking and authentic relationship-building are essential for generating referrals and sustaining growth.
4. Maintain Positive Relationships with Former Employees: Support and respect departing employees to keep bridges intact for future opportunities.
5. Consistent and Intentional Leadership: Regular engagement with team members fosters a positive workplace culture and drives long-term success.

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Share this Episode: If you found value in today's conversation, share it with fellow personal injury attorneys who might benefit from Bill Umansky's insights on leading differently and building a thriving practice through depth over scale.

Transcript

[Chris Dreyer]

Bill the law man. Yamansky has built what the most of us in the legal world aim for. A thriving practice. Deep roots in his community, real respect in Orlando. But even after nearly three decades of success, he felt there was something bigger to unlock. What he discovered changed everything about how he ran his firm. Instead of staying locked in the usual patterns of leadership, Bill started showing up differently. Having lunch with his entry level staff, connecting with his virtual team overseas, and really seeing the people who make his firm work. Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind, the show where ambitious attorneys come to learn, implement, and get results. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the SEO agency of choice for elite personal injury law firms. Bill challenges everything we think we know about scaling a law firm. Sometimes the biggest growth happens when you stop chasing the numbers and start investing in the depths of your relationships. Let's dive in.

[Bill Umansky]

Scaling is good, but I don't believe you grow, you die in the same sense that a lot of people believe that. I think, you know, a lot of people grow just number wise. I think it's growing depth wise, finding the right people and then working with people you really, really want to work with. Especially in this law business, it's more than just a numbers game. It's, especially at my age, at 58, it's about working with people you really want to work with.

[Chris Dreyer]

You don't have the same stresses and you enjoy coming to work. And your role's changed. Like you stepped away from practicing law. You made do some cases that you're super passionate about, but you're focused more on leadership and that brings you passion. What kind of prompted that decision to kind of change your role at the firm?

[Bill Umansky]

Yeah, like I think everyone else, I mean, at some point you want to pass on the torch. I wanted to help people and that's what prevented me from stepping away. That was the first thing that prevented me from stepping away was the actual one on one personal relationship with, with your clients. And the second thing that caused me honestly was my ego and feeling like I was a very, very good lawyer at some point. When I was younger, I thought I was a great lawyer. Both of those things I look back on, I'm like, yeah, I mean, I was good, but I watched some of the younger lawyers I have now and some of the older lawyers, and I'm like, no, I wasn't as good as them. So, you know, I think ego was really important. And setting aside the ego and for me, you know, just moving on and, and getting into a business mindset and by the way, not very good at it. Chris. It was last year was the first time I hired a CFO after being in practice for 28, 29, I don't know how many years since 1995. And I finally am now working with numbers and realizing, like, I still don't have to take away my joy from the practice. My CFO gives me some extra money to do silly stuff with my employees and my teammates, but I'm under control now. And I wish I'd done that like 10 years ago, but that's the reason why I stepped away.

[Chris Dreyer]

So I just went through that same thing, Bill. And I'll be honest in that I'd be curious to hear like what triggered that too on the CFO is like, I'd always, you know, you hear the bad nicknames, the bean counters and things like that. You feel like you want to just spend your money and not have the bean counter. But then I was like, oh, I was. I had this cloud over my eyes that I didn't even. Wasn't even able to see certain things to make decisions, you know. So talk to me about that. Working with the CFO on the legal side.

[Bill Umansky]

Yeah. You know, I don't give shout outs to anyone either unless I've been with them for about a year. But I am going to shout this guy out. His name's Moshe with Profit First. He's been life changing for me. Not necessarily because I've hit the targets, we are making moves towards hitting the targets, and I'm certainly getting a higher profit margin. But what he's done for our law firm and for me specifically is made me realize that while I hate numbers, it doesn't have to be painful if you picked up the right CFO who's good for your personality, they understand you, they know what you want, and they're still gonna, you know, they can still restrain you. Right. But they're gonna deliver it in a message that you can understand and appreciate. And I think that's what for me has changed dramatically is like, I'm not afraid of numbers anymore because the way he delivers it to me and when you actually see what they can do with the numbers and where they put it in different buckets and how you actually get paid. For example, I get bonus, but I also have a side pot and he moves the money around in different places that it's good. I have a little bit of free money now, but I also had can take care of people on what, you know, as KPIs. All the stuff That I really didn't do. And you know, a lot of your listeners are sophisticated, so they already do all the KPI stuff. Right. But if you, if you're a free spirit, you love just giving people money, right? Just, oh, you did a great job, John. Mary, here's some money. But then there's a backside to that. And the backside is what if John's listening or Mary or Tom? What are they not getting? Or maybe it's their reflection. Maybe you didn't give me enough. Or it's not tied to a specific metric. And so, yeah, it's been life changing.

[Chris Dreyer]

The other hat you've been wearing is I've seen you doing a lot more of the rain making networking. Right. You just talked about the mastermind. You've got the Lawman's Lounge. Unbelievable podcast. I was fortunate to be a guest on your show. You hit me with some curveballs on the how to play some poker hand and it's just.

[Bill Umansky]

You're a brilliant guy though, dude. You're way smarter than I am.

[Chris Dreyer]

So thank you.

[Bill Umansky]

You are. There you are.

[Chris Dreyer]

No, no, I, I really enjoy. It's super conversational. I love the John Morgan episode you did with him. John, he's, he's got no filter and he says some crazy shit and it makes it fun. But talk to me about that, that rain making side. You're doing the mastermind, you're doing the podcast and those benefits.

[Bill Umansky]

Yeah. So rainmaking is interesting. Right? Again, I came to it. I'll be very blunt with you. I have a company now that's really good. But I didn't spend the time I should have spent on Digital for PI. I had two separate websites, lawman.net, lawman.com I let one go, big mistake. And so now I'm in a market in Orlando, which is very difficult. There's outlying pockets, GMB strategy, all that stuff. But it's not the same grain making is exhausting. So our practice is bifurcated and I get to play in both areas where a criminal. Heavy advertising, heavy digital. There is a mix of lawyers that refer us business, which I love. That's the best. And former clients. We've got to hit all three of those verticals. But with PI, it's always been non paid, non digital. Yeah. But some stuff, I have some pages on my site, they don't really work. In fact, as you know, tracking it can be difficult. So if someone calls you up from a 407-228-383 number says, oh, I got you from the Lawman because you're staff, even though they're trained. I don't lazy that day. And you're like, they didn't get to the website. It's like, you know, my page doesn't rank. No one's coming in from there. So I can tell you that rainmaking is exhausting. The parties, the events, the community service, it's, you know, it gets tiring. And so I hired a business developer to kind of not offload that, but to be a mini me. And believe it or not, I thought that was another thing your egos like. The name of the firm is Umansky. Of course I wanted to rebrand now. I just, I hated my name. Awkward name, stupid name. Can't even say it now. I'm like, hey, it's my name and I like it. It's actually strong. And so I hired a business developer to be a mini me. And what I realized is that too can be delegated. That person could go out under your name and build on the relationships you've already done or open the doors. A marketer can open the doors for that business developer to walk in. So I, like, I may just hire more business developers at some point. Like just go out and, and be me and be out there. That makes sense. But it's exhausting and I wish. One regret I had is that I wish I'd done more digital stuff back in the day and built it when the timing is right. There's very few lawyers in a very competitive market other than GMB strategies. It takes a lot of money, a lot of investment. Right. Chris to. And I'm at that age where I'm not like, okay, I'm ready to go invest 3, 400, $500,000. I just don't want to do it at this point. So I think I'm digressing. But essentially, rainmaking is incredibly difficult. It's hard. I love it, though.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's what I was going to say. And I mean, it's, It's a ton of work. I mean, we both know, I mean, you run a podcast, your first fifty to a hundred episodes. I mean, just, there's not very many listeners, but something happens once you just stick with it and it starts to gain some legs kind of narrowing in on that, that, that business develop role, which is different. Like I, I normally don't hear, you know, I hear people investing in social or Google Ads or SEO or tv. You know, like, what, what's, what's their goal? Is it to get you on Podcasts is it to, to build referral relationships.

[Bill Umansky]

What do they do? So, you know, it's funny. So here's the thing about podcasts. I don't ask for business. I'm friends with the sheriff, I'm friends with the mayor, I'm friends with politicians. I, I am this naturally. And I'd say really good friends with some of them and I would never ask them for business. This is different from having a marketer who's going to doctor's offices and trying to get cases. This is someone who's not just trying to get cases, but developing relationships. And for the mid sized firms that you're with, and even larger firms that have it, some don't have it even if they're digitally successful. I think you should have it. This is the key. It makes the ask. So I don't have to make the ask, I don't have to make the connection. And I'll give you a little story. I have a foundation and I do personal injury. So I won't mention the politician's name. But we set up a meeting. He's meeting with me and this big huge conference room. And I said, you know, Mr. Politician, you know, how come I never get cases? I don't get it. He's like, bill, you never asked. And I'm like, yeah, but with their friends. Like, I go to your house, I, I socialize with you. We private conversations. You never asked. I thought you didn't need it. And I realized again, my ego back then was at the point, not that I thought I was that great, I thought I was that great of a friend. Of course you normally think about me. Why would he think. But the reality is, is that is a lot of other people asking for business never did that. So the business developer laughed and said, well, I'm here, so who do I need asked? He's like my right hand assistant. That's who you need to ask. So we're now developing trainings now with this politician for I don't want to give it away, but we're doing trainings and I'll just say we're doing trainings for law enforcement. We're doing trainings. A lot more stuff that we got going on as a result of the ask. So business developer is not about getting you on podcast also, by the way, for just developing relationships or referrals, but it's asking for the business. Asking for what? Of course they don't. They start off saying, what can I do for you? But there's an ask like part of It And I just hated all that Chris. I just didn't like it. So I'd say that's even. And what's great is we have a marketer that opens the door. She goes in and you know, smiles and makes connections and then the calls come in. The business developer handles it, has lunch with me, sometimes without me. And when she makes the ask, it's been great. So we do masterminds, we do law lunches, we do lunches with the lawman. Before, you know, we were kind of doing a mastermind once every year. It was supposed to be once a quarter. We're supposed to do these lunches, mass lunches with lawyers, give them some coaching advice. Again once a year. Now we're doing it every quarter. It's gotta keep doing it to gain traction. Traction. Traction, traction like the book, right? Just gain traction.

[Chris Dreyer]

So yeah, I, I think that's incredible. And I didn't even the ask that, that component. I think it's so interesting.

[Bill Umansky]

Yeah. For your business. Do you have one? Yeah.

[Chris Dreyer]

Even for.

[Bill Umansky]

For me.

[Chris Dreyer]

I'll tell you Bill, I, I'll be honest, like on me, even my conference, you didn't see me sell from stage. Like I did not ask. And it's like. But I did have the salespeople there that could in the crowd. And the other thing too. I heard this Hormozi was talking about this, you know, the author of a hundred million dollar, A hundred million leads or offers, whatever. I think most people know her mosey that a lot of people do organic social and they're posting their day to day stuff. And he said, well you need to run social ads because that's the ask, that's your opportunity. You build this community. But then you run the ads for the ask. And I was like, oh, that's a different framing because other people are like you need to do a call to action in every post. And I'm like, well, do you. Is that a turn off?

[Bill Umansky]

Wow. You know, it's funny that that, that's just opened my head up again. I've, I've heard that before because you know I used to do the social media and then the ask, they just never worked. The agencies just weren't really good at it. Cost a lot of money. I think it is really, really important because not only if they respond to the social media ask, at least the people that are following your page are knowing that that's the work that you do. So it's not just so you might even be able to do it cheaper. Some of your listeners just because it informs more branding. But it is the ask and I always struggle with that because I don't tell people, hey, here's a check, here's a check, here's a check. And that's a mistake. Probably if I'm not running ads, maybe to the ask to get business in but even more likely they've a dunder work so that at least my followers are like man, he does PIs asking for PI cases really, really important.

[Chris Dreyer]

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[Bill Umansky]

I think that the toughest thing is not just your guilt. That's actually putting it on us. I think the toughest thing is actually their lack of accountability at the time where you're separating ways. If you're the one separating them. I tell you stories right now. My new trainer was someone who used to be my executive assistant. Out of respect, I'll just be separated. My new dance instructor for my wife and I was a legal assistant who left us. My nonprofit board is all four or five ex employees. One was my director of operations. One was my firm administrator, former firm administrator. One was my former executive Assistant. You know, I just gave awards out to two lawyers. They asked me to give speeches for them at a professionalism thing. They're not working with me anymore. But I feel like the CSRS is like, build a bridge, don't burn it. You know how to build that bridge with people that leave. And that doesn't start when they leave. Right. It starts from the very, very, very beginning. And you can't do with everyone. And they're going to be employees. I just had lunch with a salesperson that left us. It was a very emotional lunch. We got deep. But that didn't start at that lunch. Because you know what, dude? A lot of, a lot of people will not be honest with your people that are doing the HR or doing the firm exit interviews. A lot of it's bullshit. They're just going to tell you something because they don't want to, in their mind, burn a bridge. And they're not giving or they don't, or they're like, you know what, I don't give a fuck about this company, so I ain't giving them anything of value. Why do they do that? Because you didn't give them anything of value in their minds or their perception. So it starts from when you hire them, how you treat them, when you hire them, how you treat them as they go along. And I'm a big, big proponent now. Yeah. One of our cultures is accountability. Right seat, right, you know, right seat, right person, they're not in the right seat, move them to another seat. Can't move them to a seat, we gotta move them out. But some people also just need to leave. You know, they're leaving, they want to be their own entrepreneur. Someone who works for you one day is going to open up a competitive SEO company just because they want to. But the reality is, think about this. If you've treated them a certain way during that course of time, even supported them as they move out, that could be a guy that buy or a woman that buys your company out, or you could buy their company out when they're frustrated and can't deal with it. And it's not just for business. It's about relationships. And to me, I think I answered this question before about moving on from being a lawyer. Was the relationships matter and they gotta start. When you're you, they're coming in, you're wearing a shirt, you're meeting with them, you're doing check ins with them as the owner of a business, and I would highly suggest this to you, I don't know how many Employers, you have check in, just not just with your leaders. Check in with people that you, you know, have your leaders talk to you and tell you who's a superstar and. And check in from the. The superstar that's in. Used to be. Right. We don't have mailrooms anymore, but whatever that lowest position is, check in with them. Go to lunch with them, or have a second lunch or a fourth lunch in the day and. And do it. And don't make it ritual so it's expected. And tell them before you meet with them, listen, I just want to meet you and get to know you. It's not about your job. I just want to understand who you are. If you put in those efforts, then when the time comes to separate, whether they leave or whether you have to separate them, terminate them, you'll have more of a foundation. Because when that conversation comes up about accountability, no one wants to be told. I didn't want to be told, especially at 25 or 28. I lost a lot of jobs, Chris, because of my ego back then. And, you know, no one wants to be told that you're not good enough or you're not the right person. We'll see. Even if you have traction eos or all these other operating systems. So I don't know if that makes sense, but it starts from the very beginning. How you hire them, how you communicate with them, how you value them. And it means listening to them, understanding their personal life. I want to know their. Their lives. I just don't even. It's just hard. But I try to remember what they're interested in and refresh myself before I have a serious conversation.

[Chris Dreyer]

I think that's phenomenal advice. I'll be honest. We can. I struggle with that a little bit. Like, I need to be more intentional. And I think I do. I think if the leaders are listening, I think I do that. But I think, you know, you got A plus superstar SEO specialists and other roles, marketing. I could. I could definitely do a better job. We have a remote company, so it's. It's kind of challenging to have those lunches and things like that. But there's still ways to do it.

[Bill Umansky]

Yes, yes. So we have like 3Vs in Venezuela or 6Vs. I don't even know how many now. I set a time. They're just. They're not just. They're legal assistance. And I asked them about who they are, what they are, what the interests are, and, you know, we put it on a bonus thing. So one of them likes to spa in the Philippines, you know, know, spot treatment all day here is $701,000. There, it's a hundred dollars. And that's the nicest spot because you get a massage there for like 20 bucks. Give them a hundred dollars, you do whatever. And so you got to listen to them and understand and also ask them about their future. It is all intentional. Like I can't stress that to you enough. And, and it's not just your superstars either, because people are watching you as you're meeting other people. If you're kind to them during the time, they'll have a more of an understanding when it's time to part ways and when they decide to part ways on their own, hopefully they'll respect you and care about you. So I would say to you and all your listeners, like, it takes effort, but as a CEO of your company, it's the, you know, and their books have been written about this, but I don't remember which book and don't really care. It's just natural. But I have to make it a rock. Every quarter I have to make a rock how many people I'm going to meet. And I used to do it with outside people. And by the way, who's the biggest promoter of your business is your people. That's how intentional you got to be. And you got to like, get in and make sure that you're there and present with everyone.

[Chris Dreyer]

Bill challenges what we typically think drives law firm success. Sure, revenue and market share matter, but as we've heard today, there's something more fundamental at play. Bill showed us that when you prioritize real connections with your team, whether they're with you for a year or a decade, you build something that goes way beyond traditional metrics. I'm Chris Dreyer and this is Personal Injury Mastermind. If you got value from today's conversation, share with another firm owner who might need to hear it. And remember, sometimes the best investment you can make is in the people sitting right outside your office. Catch you next time I'm out.