← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
304. Quality Over Quantity: The New Economics of Case Acquisition
00:22:31
Jake Soffer and Scott Hardy reveal two revolutionary approaches to premium case acquisition in today's saturated legal market. While Soffer demonstrates how FirmPilot's AI platform helps firms target ideal clients with surgical precision, Hardy shares how he built Top Class Actions into a 1.5-million-visitor platform and leveraged Arizona's new rules to create his own law firm, capturing premium cases directly.
Loading summary
Transcript42 lines
- [00:04]
Chris Dreyer
Every firm knows to invest in marketing and every firm knows to build a strong digital presence. What if you could rise above the competition not by casting a wider net, but by spear fishing for whales? We're getting a front row seat to the new frontier of case acquisition through AI that targets perfect match cases and new business models that create direct pathways to premium clients. Two conversations shows us how to rise above the noise. And one, through technology defines the exact cases you want. Another through business structures that bring cases directly to you. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the host of Personal Injury Mastermind. To kick things off, we start with Jake Soffer, founder and CEO of firmpilot. Jake studied computer engineering with a focus on natural language processing. But this was way before ChatGPT.
- [00:47]
Jake Soffer
We were working on algorithms to read a sentence and say is that a person, place or event? Like very, very simple. We thought it was the coolest thing in the world.
- [00:57]
Chris Dreyer
Let's fast forward. Today Jake explains how Firm Pilot's AI platform sits on the top of your existing marketing. Turning broad campaigns into precision targeting machines.
- [01:06]
Jake Soffer
We started to build the set of AI agents that do the same things an agency would do. Your social media, your SEO, technical end content link building, all the different things that your agency is doing. But what we built and orchestrated is what we like to call a data layer that sits on top of large language models, the AI models that power ChatGPT, Claude, et cetera. And this data layer says here's the things that you should do and here are the things that you definitely should not do. Like people being penalized for just saying, hey chatgpt, write me a blog post about car accidents. And you know you get penalized, no doubt like that is something you definitely should not be doing. We're very, very intentional about the content we write given the data sets. That's where the value lies that see these AI agents that are writing your content, making your website faster, doing your social media. That's the 80. The 20 is where I kind of like to say maybe we miss out on that rankings. You know, it's on the park on is a little bit more on the branding side, a little bit more on the tonality.
- [02:15]
Scott Hardy
You know, at the end of the.
- [02:16]
Jake Soffer
Day we still are AI. We do work with some higher end clients, but they tend to both have an agency and burn pilot to supplement it as giving them a competitive edge. But we found this really, really nice sweet spot of if you are in the middle to lower half budget wise of this marketing agency world and legal It's a great solution that automates each of those assets. Again, social, SEO, website speed and accessibility, all that powered by our data layer.
- [02:49]
Scott Hardy
Guys, I, I'm not an investor. I just think, I think Jake's tool is amazing and I, and we were kind of comparing the amount of deliverables and the production that it's capable of as respected to like an agency cost. It's pretty incredible. So just wanted to state that, you know, non biased. It's, it's, it has a lot of productivity. You mentioned there's, in previous conversations there's 460,000 plus law firms competing for attention. How has this saturation changed and what it takes to win clients?
- [03:21]
Jake Soffer
We fish with the spear. Not enough. Our biggest scare is when we sign a client and we see a graveyard where we see your intake system and you have leads that are three years old. We're all about precision. But if we don't have data telling us what's good, what's bad, are we training the model or.
- [03:41]
Scott Hardy
The last thing we want to do.
- [03:42]
Jake Soffer
Is train a model to go after what you don't want.
- [03:46]
Scott Hardy
So, so it has some of those quote unquote like CRM type capabilities to help with the targeting, I guess with the demos and, and the psychographics too. Is, is that what you're referring to?
- [03:55]
Jake Soffer
We have a firm that all, all he does is nursing home abuse. We were able to triple his monthly read volume in three months because he had all this data and just didn't know what to do with it. It's not as simple as WordPress. Google make sure my content shows up in front of my most profitable client. However, there are mechanisms where you can get an edge. For example, Chris and Jake are sitting in the exact same room and we Google the exact same words. We very well might see different results. Google knows everything about us. He bought your lunch with a credit card. It knows what you ate. So we can use this psychographic data to go target age, sex, household income, education, search history, all of that just hidden in the data behind the content. Based off what we call readability scores. We use an algorithm called Flesh Kincaid to say this is who it's likely to show up in front of.
- [04:49]
Scott Hardy
Flesh Kincaid is one of the pains for me internally because a lot of times our, our clients want to read it. You know, the content written at a more sophisticated level. We may only need it to be an 8th grade reading level because that's the consumer's reading level on average, depending upon which demo you're targeting. And in all the different criteria, who you're going after. I loved your analogy of fishing with the spear and like the focus and more on quality and specifics. A lot of times when we think of AI, it's like Grant Cardone in the, in the background. 10x 10x productivity, productivity, productivity, you know, so maybe you could just speak to what is that data? What did you feed into it to give them this unique information to create this campaign?
- [05:34]
Jake Soffer
We like to think of ourselves as not just a vendor or partner. Like what are your goals? We work with a large, large injury firm in Philadelphia. Their organic traffic was through the roof. If you look them up on Semrush, Aros, whatever, you're seeing thousands and tens of thousands of monthly visitors. But is that traffic actually valuable to them? So looking at their intake system we could see they were almost becoming like a news aggregator for those keywords, vanity keywords. Whereas I'd rather get half as much traffic if it's high value clients and the clients that I at so and so law actually want. So we looked at all this data with them in their intake system and they said, wow, we should really go after birth injuries. Like we are really good at handling birth injuries. We sign them quickly. We have a high conversion rate for people dealing with birth injuries. So if you just know where to look in that data and keep it clean, it makes it so much easier to really build a machine to say this is what we gonna, what we wanna go after. Here's how we make it run. Rather than let's just put content up that says we're an injury firm.
- [06:44]
Scott Hardy
Talk to me about the capabilities. Okay, so we, we, we know it has the ability to create content. You mentioned social media. Talk to me about some of the capabilities in terms of the distribution outside of that.
- [06:53]
Jake Soffer
Yeah, so another really cool one that we built is our PPC model. It is so crowded anyone can launch Google Ads and firms think I'm paying, I should get guaranteed leads. However, what people often forget is Google's goal and not bashing Google, they are the king and queen maker. However, Google's goal is different than your goal. Their goal is spend your budget as fast as possible. Your goals, get good leads. And if 500 firms are bidding on the same keyword, how is it decided who's paying what cost per click? Because you're not all paying the same cost per click. And how is it decided who's going to be add 1, who's ad 2 or who's ad 3? 3 and 4 all the way at the bottom of the page and how often does your ad show up? It's a bit of a black box so there is no way to fully open up that black box and see it. So what we do is we emulate tons of these guys IP addresses in your city and see how often does Chris's law firm show up? Is it always spot number one must be doing absolute impression share bid strategy or does he go second? What other keywords in a keyword cluster we like to call similar off keywords even longer tail does he show up for?
- [08:13]
Scott Hardy
Great.
- [08:14]
Jake Soffer
So now we actually have kind of a baseline meaning our copy has to be at least this good. Our cost per click has to be at least this much. Is it even worth it to go after for you? Your budget has to be at least X and we just have to be at least this long or this good and swap. So now we actually have all this data saying here's how we launch a good ad campaign, not gut feeling or a template that we've used for 500 clients.
- [08:40]
Scott Hardy
When we get into these bid strategies like the absolute top impression share and like how that can be manipulated now Google's going to run up that price or the max cpc, you know, the auction base versus you know, max cpa which historically has performed the best for us because you're giving it at least targets but if you increase that cpa they're going to spend it, you know. And the other thing too is like does Firm pilot, does it feed back in the data? The offline conversions, does it, does it utilize that?
- [09:10]
Chris Dreyer
What's just your thoughts?
- [09:11]
Scott Hardy
I mean how valuable is that information? It's always like well we think it helps.
- [09:16]
Jake Soffer
It's everything. We've signed clients that were using a freelancer, another agency and I'm shocked to see the amount of times that we don't see Google Tag Manager installed. That's like flying blind. You have to have that feedback loop. You could have the best AI in the world but if you don't, if you're not feeding it good data, you're just guess it. Even with AI, it's not as simple as saying hey I do X. Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't trust a self driving car that doesn't have millions and millions of training data to take me to the airport. Because it's just guess it. It's the same with your ad. So if you don't have that feedback loop set up to capture those conversions then you're, you're really just again blind. Blind or I wouldn't want to Spend my budget that way.
- [10:05]
Scott Hardy
Let's face it, being a great lawyer isn't enough to succeed. You need to generate consistent leads. Personal injury is the most saturated niche. Competition is fierce and differentiation is everything. When the deck is stacked against you, you need a comprehensive resource to beat the competition. My latest book, Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing is your roadmap to consistent leads and exponential growth. It is a masterclass on marketing for personal injury firms. It's packed with actionable strategies on where to invest your marketing dollars for maximum impact. No more guesswork, no more wasted ad spend. Just clear, proven methods to transform your firm from good to go. Grab your copy of Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing on Amazon. Link is in the show notes.
- [10:46]
Chris Dreyer
We've seen how firms can use AI to target their ideal cases. But what if you could go a step further and actually own the channel that brings in premium cases? Cases. That's exactly what Scott Hardy did as an entrepreneur, not a lawyer. He built top Class Actions into a platform that attracts 1.5 million potential clients every month. Then when Arizona changed its rules to allow non lawyer ownership of law firms, he did something unprecedented. He built his own law firm to capture those premium cases directly. Here's how this founder is reshaping the economics of case acquisition.
- [11:16]
Unknown Speaker
I helped a number of lawyers because become multimillionaires by getting them their potential plaintiffs and getting those cases rolling and that kind of thing. And during that time I was just like, and my friends were like, you gotta start a law firm. I'm not a lawyer. I got a year and a half at community college. I'm not that smart. I just work really hard. But then Arizona changed the rules to allow non attorneys to have a law firm.
- [11:42]
Scott Hardy
But Scott, I've done the research. I know you read at least a book a week.
- [11:46]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [11:47]
Jake Soffer
Yeah.
- [11:47]
Scott Hardy
So, so let's, you're being humble here. So let's, let's lean into this.
- [11:52]
Unknown Speaker
I read. I read a lot. Yes, I read a lot. And so we started. It took a year to get the paperwork going to find the right partner, the right compliance attorney. And then we got our abs going and we started because Top Class actions get now gets a million and a half viewers a month organically. Those are all consumers who are actively looking to participate lawsuits and settlements. And so now we'll use our law firm Legify to co counsel. And so in that case Legify pays all the marketing expenses co counsels with some of the top law firms in the country and you know, we sign the cases and then Ligify gets paid the Attorney's fees. On the personal injury side, we just rolled out in the past six, six months, a new target just for PI lawyers. And that's a package where they're spending a hundred thousand dollars with the expectation that we're targeting to sign about 20 commercial defendants for MVA accidents, motor vehicle accidents, MVAs. And so that's averaging about a $5,000 per signed commercial defendant. That could be Uber, Lyft, Taxi, UPS, FedEx, or of course, the, whatever lawyer wants is the big rig and getting hit by those. And so we're doing that out state by state. And we've, we've only signed about 12 states so far, so we've got a lot of room to grow. So if you're viewers out there looking to sign MVA clients, we'd love to talk to them. And we're doing that with Legify. And so you pay the. A hundred grand, 10% of any of those of the attorney's fees go to Legify. But naturally, with this advertising, we're also signing a number of just regular MVAs. And so when those get signed, those are just a straight co counsel deal with Leagueify. That way our clients are able to get both mva, which they aren't charged for, as well as the commercial defendants. So challenging as, you know. Well, now we've got, you know, some law firms that are like, okay, I'll do five states or six states.
- [14:18]
Scott Hardy
Can I ask you something, Scott? And then you can, you can share or not. I had, and I'm not asking for the secret sauce on like how to originate this, but I'm just curious. I had Angel Reyes on a show out of Dallas and he was giving a number like, you know, he doesn't care how you advertise about 14, 15% or commercial policy cases. You know, do you think that's numbers low? Do you think that's kind of, maybe that's, that's, you know, pretty consistent. So, you know, we're getting maybe, you know, eight, nine of the small before.
- [14:49]
Chris Dreyer
You get the commercial.
- [14:51]
Unknown Speaker
Yes, that sounds pretty doggone in line. And all of our advertising, all of our paid advertising is only targeting commercial independence. But people see those ads and then call in. So we've, we're seeing about 20% to 20, 30% depending on the market.
- [15:09]
Scott Hardy
The years are more laser targeted for the. Got it.
- [15:12]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, all of ours are, but the people still just see it and go, oh yeah, I was hit. Or you know, whatever the issue is. And they come in. That's interesting because MVA wasn't Our thing, but all of our clients were just like, come on, you know, you're doing great on mass towards. Can you just, can you also sign us up? Because a lot of the big guys, as, you know, a lot of the big, big mass torque guys, they've got their PI practice which pays the day to day bills, you know, they just got back to look forward to.
- [15:42]
Scott Hardy
Yeah, I, I, super smart. And then the Tor payout, you know, depending upon what you get in, you know, who knows, it could be so different. Varying timetables there in terms of the tour side. Right. So you gave us some numbers on the PI, the commercial. I love that offer. It's a great offer. Especially commercial cases at 5K. I mean, you know, great. You're the epitome of what they would call forward integration. So you know, a lot of times people go backwards. Integration for the, for the supply. They're like, you created your own distribution through top class actions, right? With the million users a month. And you're like, well now I, and you know, the traffic itself helps you rank whatever you want to rank. Especially the Google leak that came out, talks about a lot of that and the signals from clicks. So. And then you're like, you know what? And for monetization, I'm shifting to, I'm going to participate in contingency. So you went through the aps. Just, just, you know, how long did that process take? You know, I've heard seven, eight months. You know, was that, was it longer than that?
- [16:44]
Unknown Speaker
Right now the Arizona Supreme Court is greatly overworked and they don't have the staff and so if you were to submit an application now, you'd be lucky to get it approved within the next eight months to a year.
- [16:57]
Scott Hardy
One question is just the SEO nerd in me is going to ask, you know, on the torts and the class actions that, you know, they're out, they're, they're time runs or maybe they go to zero. You know, I know Zantax hit or miss or whatever's going on the state level. You know, you got a torque that's just at zero, right? And you got all this content on your website. Are you de indexing it and removing it? Are you. No following it. You just leave it up, let it rock.
- [17:22]
Jake Soffer
Let it we.
- [17:23]
Unknown Speaker
And now it's, it's sad, Chris, you'll be a little shame, but my team handles all of the tech back end now, so we don't, we trip, we don't index almost anything. We'll toss a redirect on it if we're to take a page down, but we will, you know, continue to update that page because, like, Zantac was dead until it wasn't. And now we're heavily involved in that ultra law firm in Top Class actions. And so we know that these things come back to life. You know, it's, it's crazy how these torts go. And so when all of a sudden it comes back to life, we go ahead and do a full refresh of the big long form page itself and then start generating new content. But my SEO teams, they actually meet a couple times a week and we have both the competitive SEO analysis. So if our competitors are ranking for terms that we want, we will go ahead and start immediately putting out competing content to put them further down the list to make sure we're back on top.
- [18:25]
Chris Dreyer
Two different approaches, one clear message. The future of case acquisition isn't about catching everything your net. It's about precisely targeting the cases that drive real value. The result is better cases and better outcomes for everyone. Connect with Jake Soffer at Firm Pilot or Scott Hardy at Top Class Actions through the links in our show Notes while you're there. Subscribe to the podcast for more insights on building a more profitable practice. I'm Chris Stryer. Thanks for hanging out. See you next time.
- [18:50]
Scott Hardy
I'm out.