305. Is Your Firm Bleeding Marketing Dollars? A Legal Marketing Auditor Tells All

Summary

Podcast Summary: Personal Injury Mastermind Episode 305: Is Your Firm Bleeding Marketing Dollars? A Legal Marketing Auditor Tells All Release Date: December 31, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 305 of Personal Injury Mastermind, host Chris Dreyer engages in an in-depth conversation with John Schroeder, the owner of Defacto Digital Consulting. The episode delves into the critical aspects of legal marketing, focusing on how personal injury law firms can optimize their marketing strategies to avoid wasting valuable resources. John Schroeder brings a wealth of experience in providing unbiased marketing audits, offering listeners actionable insights to enhance their firm's marketing performance.

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The Landscape of Legal Marketing Agencies

Chris Dreyer opens the discussion by highlighting the challenges personal injury firms face when selecting marketing agencies. He states, "As the owner of a digital marketing agency, I see firms getting sold on solutions that might not be right for them." (00:03)

John Schroeder reinforces this sentiment, emphasizing that only a small fraction of agencies consistently deliver high-quality results. He explains, "95% of agencies are not top level. 5% are. So if you figure there's 200 out there, maybe there's 10 that are really doing high quality work and can rank PI firms consistently." (00:08)

This exchange sets the stage for understanding the saturated and often ineffective agency market, underscoring the necessity for firms to discern genuinely effective partners from the majority that may lead to wasted investments.

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The Cost of Ineffective Marketing

The conversation turns to the financial implications of poor marketing decisions. John Schroeder candidly shares, "The problem is the firm is 50k in the hole by the time they figure that out in 90 days." (00:27)

This stark reality emphasizes the urgency for firms to perform thorough evaluations of their marketing strategies early on to prevent significant financial losses.

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Unbiased Marketing Audits: Shedding Light on Blind Spots

Chris introduces John Schroeder as someone who provides an "unvarnished raw look into your blind spots," crucial for firms to make informed marketing decisions. John Schroeder elaborates on his approach, stating, "We do an unbiased analysis and we do a deep dive into things that we think move the needle, certain SEO things." (00:54)

Process Overview:

• Duration: Approximately 21 days to complete an audit.
• Outcome: A comprehensive report followed by an implementation call. (01:19)
• Focus Areas: Primarily digital marketing, including SEO, Google paid ads (LSAs and intake), and some branding analysis. John Schroeder clarifies, "It's entirely digital... It's almost entirely on SEO. Google paid ads, including LSAs and intake. And also there's some branding involved as well." (01:38)

John’s methodology avoids biases inherent in agencies that might prioritize their own services, offering instead a clear, objective assessment of a firm's marketing effectiveness.

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Key Marketing Channels and Their Effectiveness

SEO vs. Paid Ads: John Schroeder identifies SEO as the most reliable channel for generating cases, whereas paid ads present challenges due to Google's stringent controls. He notes, "SEO, almost always partially paid ads. The problem with paid ads now is it's become so Google controlled that it's really difficult to get any traction there." (02:28)

He warns against relying solely on paid ads without expertise, highlighting the risk of "blowing through money" without achieving desired results. Conversely, effective SEO can yield substantial benefits if implemented correctly.

Intake Processes: A significant portion of the discussion centers on the intake process, where John Schroeder reveals a troubling statistic: "90% of it seems to be. The intake seems to be substandard." (03:20)

He elaborates on common pitfalls, such as inconsistent responses and untrained staff, leading to lost opportunities and legitimate cases slipping through the cracks. Improving intake processes, therefore, is critical for maximizing the returns on marketing investments.

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Common Mistakes in Legal Marketing

SEO Errors: John Schroeder highlights that many firms neglect essential SEO practices, particularly in building a robust backlink profile. He explains, "The biggest issue that we see is the backlink profile... we're not seeing a lot of links that are pointed to the practice area pages, the car accident pages, the truck accident pages." (06:01)

He emphasizes that high-quality backlinks are crucial for ranking well, especially for specific practice areas, and notes, "every one of them, almost every one of them had multiple links, pointed to their car accident page, to their, to their money pages." (07:23)

Paid Advertising Mismanagement: In the realm of paid advertising, John Schroeder critiques the over-reliance on automated systems like PMAX campaigns, which he describes as "spraying that sucker everywhere" without strategic targeting. (08:32)

He advocates for a more hands-on approach, stating, "Google's always been about Google... you have to fight it or you're going to get clicks but not necessarily cases." (07:51)

Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) and Landing Pages: The discussion moves to CRO, where John Schroeder supports the use of dedicated landing pages over directing traffic to the general website. He asserts, "I always been prefer landing pages. I just think statistics show that it's probably a better idea to have a separate landing page to, to capture that information quickly." (09:33)

He also points out the failure of firms to craft effective ad headlines, which can hinder conversion rates.

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Intake Team Effectiveness: In-House vs. Third Party

John Schroeder compares the effectiveness of in-house intake teams versus third-party services. He mentions, "I really like the idea of having a third party do it because it could be 24 hours. They're trained, they have scripts, they're trained on every possible scenario." (11:31)

However, he acknowledges that in-house teams can be highly effective for larger firms with the resources to support them, citing success stories from big firms in New York. The key takeaway is that the choice depends on a firm's specific needs and resource allocation.

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The Genesis of Defacto Digital Consulting

When asked about his inspiration, John Schroeder shares his background and the realization that many agencies push their own services rather than providing unbiased advice. He reflects, "It's kind of the old adage, if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." (12:22)

This led him to establish Defacto Digital Consulting, focusing solely on auditing and consulting without the pressure to sell additional services. This approach has been well-received, carving out a niche for firms seeking honest evaluations.

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The Audit and Consulting Process

John Schroeder outlines the audit process:

1. Initial Contact: Begins with a phone call to determine a good fit.
2. Audit Duration: Completed within 15 to 20 days, depending on the complexity.
3. Deliverables: A detailed report accompanied by a video with screenshots for clarity. (13:43)
4. Implementation Call: Discussing the findings and next steps to rectify identified issues.

The goal is to either work with the current agency to make necessary improvements or facilitate a transition if the firm decides to seek a new partner.

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Chris Dreyer summarizes the episode by highlighting the value of unbiased audits in uncovering marketing inefficiencies. He emphasizes the importance of objective data in making informed decisions, stating, "whether you're spending $5,000 or $100,000 a month on marketing, you need objective data to make informed decisions about your firm's future." (15:30)

Key Takeaways:

• Select the Right Agency: Focus on top-tier agencies that consistently deliver high-quality results.
• Optimize SEO: Prioritize building a strong backlink profile tailored to specific practice areas.
• Manage Paid Ads Carefully: Avoid over-reliance on automated systems and ensure expert management.
• Enhance Intake Processes: Implement trained, responsive intake teams to maximize lead conversion.
• Conduct Regular Audits: Use unbiased audits to identify and address marketing blind spots.

Chris encourages listeners to subscribe to the podcast and to explore additional resources, including his book Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing From Good to Goat, for further insights into effective legal marketing strategies.

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Notable Quotes:

• John Schroeder: "95% of agencies are not top level. 5% are. So if you figure there's 200 out there, maybe there's 10 that are really doing high quality work and can rank PI firms consistently." (00:08)

• John Schroeder: "The problem is the firm is 50k in the hole by the time they figure that out in 90 days." (00:27)

• John Schroeder: "90% of it seems to be. The intake seems to be substandard." (03:20)

• John Schroeder: "The biggest issue that we see is the backlink profile... we're not seeing a lot of links that are pointed to the practice area pages." (06:01)

• John Schroeder: "I always been prefer landing pages. I just think statistics show that it's probably a better idea to have a separate landing page to, to capture that information quickly." (09:33)

• John Schroeder: "It's kind of the old adage, if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." (12:22)

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This episode serves as a crucial guide for personal injury firms aiming to refine their marketing strategies, emphasizing the need for expert audits, strategic SEO, effective paid advertising management, and robust intake processes to drive sustained growth and success.

Transcript

[Chris Dreyer]

As the owner of a digital marketing agency, I see firms getting sold on solutions that might not be right for them.

[John Schroeder]

95% of agencies are not top level. 5% are. So if you figure there's 200 out there, maybe there's 10 that are really doing high quality work and can rank PI firms consistently.

[Chris Dreyer]

After all, when every expert is trying to sell you something, how do you really know what your firm needs?

[John Schroeder]

The problem is the firm is 50k in the hole by the time they figure that out in 90 days.

[Chris Dreyer]

So today I wanted to hear from someone who has no horse in this race, someone who can offer an unvarnished raw look into your blind spots so you can decide what's actually best for your firm. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the SEO agency of choice for law firms. You're listening to Personal Injury Mastermind, where we provide the tools and instructions you need to build a solid personal injury practice.

[John Schroeder]

We do an unbiased analysis and we do a deep dive into things that we think move the needle, certain SEO things.

[Chris Dreyer]

John Schroeder, owner of Defacto Digital Consulting, has built a business doing something radical, Telling law firms the brutal truth about their marketing performance. I sat down with John to understand how he approaches these audits, what he's learned from analyzing firms across the country, and most importantly, what actually works in legal marketing when you strip away all the sales pitches. Here's our conversation.

[John Schroeder]

Takes us about 21 days. We provide a report, and then we have an implementation call and we go from there.

[Unknown]

So let's dig into that. It is Defacto Digital Consulting. So is it mostly around the digital, the numbers, the attribution? Are you looking at their media, buying their radio, stuff like that too? Or, or is it focused more on the digital?

[John Schroeder]

It's entirely digital. I mean, we might take into consideration what they're spending on TV. And I, I know you said TV's not really the thing right now, but, you know, they, they still spend on that. They spend on billboards. We might take a, a brief look at that, but that's not really where we're focused. It's. It's almost entirely on SEO. Google paid ads, including LSAs and intake. And also there's some branding involved as well, so some branding analysis.

[Unknown]

You've done a lot of these audits for big firms and small firms, and all different sizes in the PI space, just current state of PI. When you open up their lead docket or their litifier, what have you, what's showing as case Conversions, like, what's generating the cases, what's the big channels that you see?

[John Schroeder]

SEO, almost always partially paid ads. The problem with paid ads now is it's become so Google controlled that it's really difficult to get any traction there. And if it's not being. If you don't have a true expert running the paid ads campaign, I think, you know, it's the quickest way to blow through money. But we're still seeing really great results from SEO, if it's done properly.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I see that as well. And I know there's some murkiness, right, because the TV builds a brand and the radio builds a brand, and then, you know, they Google the search and it's attributed to. That's SEO. So I'm cognizant of that, even though I'm a little biased as the SEO guy too. When you're looking at intake, are you listening to calls? Are you checking missed calls? Like, what goes into that side of the evaluation?

[John Schroeder]

Yeah, a lot of it is just basically, you know, fill out the form on the firm website, you get a response. And if you get a response, is it a response? That is within proper standards. We also secret shop and make phone calls at different times of the day. Who's answering the phone? Do they sound like they're well trained? Do they sound like they have some training in sales to where they could actually sign the client? So it's pretty, it's pretty low tech, but I think it works from the standard of, you know, the average person picking up the phone and calling a firm or filling out the form. So I think it's been effective. And this may or may not surprise you. 90% of it seems to be. The intake seems to be substandard. So there's a lot of. There's a lot of leads that are going unsigned. Probably legitimate cases, too.

[Unknown]

You know, I just had a conversation with Harlan Schillinger earlier today, and we were talking about intake. And every time I hear. I. I spoke with Lauren Vaughn from Quintessa, and there's like, there's some biases.

[John Schroeder]

Right.

[Unknown]

You know, Harlan built lead docket, but he's also a marketer. And Lauren has an intake background. But I continually hear it over and over again that, like, a lot of people can generate cases, but the real players have dialed in their intake. Is that kind of what you're seeing?

[John Schroeder]

Absolutely, absolutely. And we, we've seen firms that are spending, you know. Well, we've worked with firms anywhere from 5k a month to big regional firms that are spending A hundred K a month on, on digital marketing. And like I said, maybe you're not surprised. There's so much waste, there's so much being lost through that substandard intake process. But the good news is I see a lot of companies starting to take advantage of that and start training up law firms and their staff on how to do proper intake. So I think it's trending in the right direction.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I agree. I think, I think just the cost to acquire a case increasing is kind of forcing that too. Right. It's like now it's not just these gigantic margins and low CPAs. You have to just be really careful to, to collect everything you can. I'm sure some of those listening are thinking, you know, on the digital side, like, well, I think we're doing pretty good, but I don't really know, Like, I guess let's start with each of the big ones, like what are the common mistakes you see? And let's start with the SEO side. Well, like what are some of the big common mistakes you see?

[John Schroeder]

A lot of it comes down to, I think he'd probably agree with this, maybe not, but I think most of SEO is high level content and backlinks. Of course everything else is important from on page and technical, but I think it really needs to be worked every month. And I think this is why you are different as well. You're actually doing the work, you're writing high level content you're writing or you're providing high level backlinks to the client, you're pointing them to the, to the internal pages. But I think the biggest issue that we see is the backlink profile. And I think it's still very legitimate when it comes to rankings. We're not seeing a lot of links that are pointed to the practice area pages, the car accident pages, the truck accident pages. Maybe that's difficult for certain link builders to do, but you know, it's really not. And I think it makes a big difference. And we, we, we did our little basic study or research on this and we looked at a bunch of firms that rank very well in big cities and every one of them, almost every one of them had multiple links, pointed to their car accident page, to their, to their money pages, as they say. So I think that's a huge factor. One of the biggest things we see.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I, I won't like beat a dead horse here, but like if you do an audit on Ahrefs or Semrush for any market, it's Typically the people that have the most referring domains that are high quality because sometimes it's they got junk links that, that tend to rank just extra signals. What about on the paid side you get like, do you get like read access? Do you are like how are you evaluating paid. Do they give you access like that?

[John Schroeder]

Yeah so that's they we do get read only access which is the only way that we could, we could really do it. So we have a person who does this with us and I think he's the best in the industry at running paid ads campaigns but also showing why they're not working. And like he says it's gotta be as manual as possible. I think Google's trying to take that manual control away from the management side but I think you have to, you have to fight it or you're going to get clicks but not necessarily cases. So Google's, Google's always been about Google and you know, why wouldn't they be? They're there to make money, right?

[Unknown]

Let's face it, being a great lawyer isn't enough to succeed. You need to generate consistent leads. Personal injury is the most saturated niche, competition is fierce and differentiation is everything. When the deck is stacked against you, you need a comprehensive resource to beat the competition. My latest book Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing is your roadmap to consistent leads and exponential growth. It is a masterclass on marketing for personal injury firms. It's packed with actionable strategies on where to invest your marketing dollars for maximum impact. No more guesswork, no more wasted ad spend. Just clear proven methods to transform your firm from good to go. Grab your copy of Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing on Amazon. Link is in the show notes. Yeah and we've seen what happens when you turn on that PMAX campaign. It's basically like their remnant inventory. They're just spraying that sucker everywhere. So you common mistakes it's, it's more manual controlling it more is there is. Do you look at the landing pages? Any, any major mistakes on that side? On the CRO side I think it's.

[John Schroeder]

5050 and now whether you should have landing pages or you should just direct it to the, to the regular website. I always been prefer landing pages. I just think statistics show that it's probably a better idea to have a separate landing page to, to capture that information quickly. So landing pages aren't necessarily a big issue that we see. It's just a lot of it is the ads and having Google write the ad headlines when, when you could easily be writing more effective headlines, you know. So like I said it's, it's about resting control as much as you can.

[Unknown]

Away from Google for the intake team. Like what's some of the big mistakes? Is it, is it just as simple as just missing calls and taking too long to answer?

[John Schroeder]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean it should be answered on the, on the, on the first ring. I mean it shouldn't go five, six, seven rings. Ultimately. Take it seriously. Having your salespeople or have your intake people be salespeople, have them be trained to sign clients. I mean, I've heard there's some firms out there that have potential clients sign the documents on the first call, then work out the issues. That to me would be the best way to go about doing it because I mean they're probably. A potential client is calling three, four, five firms, you know, it's a race basically. And if you're not calling them back immediately, what you're, what you're missing out on, I mean, could be massive. So it's just a, it's just a situation where they're not taking it seriously and for whatever reason they think they could just, you know, have anybody answer the phone and it's never been the case.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what I see as well. It's like speed wins on the intake, you know, follow up, things like that. What have you seen in terms of effectiveness for in house versus third party? Is, do you see third party being extremely effective sometimes or is it just the control and the in house? The better setup typically, I mean, I.

[John Schroeder]

Guess it all depends on the quality of the, of the people you hire. But I really like the idea of having a third party do it because it could be 24 hours. They're trained, they have scripts, they're trained on every possible scenario. And I think it, it's hard to go against a system that's only set up to sign potential clients, whereas somebody in house, you know, maybe if you're a big enough firm with a big enough budget, you can have an in house team dedicated to intake. And I've seen it, I've seen it with a couple of big firms in New York and it seems to work out really well. It just all depends on where you want to focus your resources.

[Unknown]

You built this reputation providing honest and unbiased evaluations of law firms marketing strategies. Can you share with our audience what inspired you to start your company?

[John Schroeder]

We started at Findlaw selling leads to lawyers. Was very fortunate to learn from a great salesman. I started working for SEO companies, paid ad companies. Picked up a lot of good skills along the way. But eventually, you know, you come to realize that agencies tend to be biased towards what they do best. Right. You know, it's kind of the, the old adage, if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. So it's like, hey, we sell PPC management. That's what we do best. Therefore, Mr. Lawyer, you must invest in, in paid ads. Right? So maybe, maybe not so. It used to drive me crazy and I, I hated it. I thought it was a little bit disingenuous. So there was a market out there or an opportunity to just do the analysis and to sell the analysis and then the consulting without selling services on the back end. And it's been received pretty well.

[Unknown]

The agencies that are the churn and burn agencies probably hate your guts, but the good agencies love you. Right, because you're recommending them to good partners. Right. So if an individual wants to get your, your audit, your diagnosis, you know, how long does this take? What's the process involved to do this? Like, just tell me about, just kind of fill in the details of some of the things I missed there.

[John Schroeder]

It starts with a phone call and we just see if it's a good fit. We could go to work on it. It takes us about 15, 20 days depending, usually depending on how intensive their Google Ads campaign runs. So it's really simple. We provide a report. We also provide a video with screenshots so they can see exactly what it is I'm talking about and seeing. And then, then we have the implementation call. And I mean, the goal here is just to get it right whether the agency fixes it, which is probably best for everybody. That's fantastic. So if we can light a fire under the agency and they fix it, that's happened many times. Everybody's happy. It's all great. If they, sometimes when it gets down to the end of the analysis, you know, they're ready to make a change. And that's where we, we can facilitate that as well.

[Unknown]

Yeah, and, and tell me that's amazing on the, the diagnosis and the unbiased, like, hey, are they doing good or they're not? And here's what, where the holes are, right? And you've done a lot of these, so you can really identify those holes. Tell me about this aspect. What is the consulting service that you offer?

[John Schroeder]

We figured that, and we've had good relationships with, with a few agencies, but, you know, even the best ones tend to miss the mark on a client from time to time. It happens. We've analyzed a lot of different agency work so we know who can deliver consistently. And you know what I've heard you say there there's definitely a hierarchy of competence, and there's a lot of reasons for that, specific business reasons with that agency, you know. But if we can keep agency clients happy and uncover issues before they become unfixable and the firm is one foot out the door, that's great.

[Chris Dreyer]

John Schroeder offers a unique lens into what's actually working in the legal marketing space. By removing the bias of trying to sell services, he's able to give firms the brutal truth about their operations. Mentic Gaps to Marketing Blind Spots the key Takeaway whether you're spending $5,000 or $100,000 a month on marketing, you need objective data to make informed decisions about your firm's future. Sometimes that means bringing in someone with no stake in the game to tell you what's really going on. If you found value in the episode, make sure to subscribe to Personal Injury Mastermind wherever you get your podcasts. And for more insights on growing your firm, grab a copy of my new book, Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing From Good to Goat. You can find all the links in the show notes. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on the next episode of Personal Injury Mastermind.