← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
313. The Complete Guide to TV Advertising for Law Firms: A Media Buyer's Inside Look at What Actually Works
00:52:45
This comprehensive guide to legal TV ads breaks down exactly how top firms dominate their markets through broadcast television.
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- [00:00]
A
At Rankings, we've mastered digital marketing for personal injury law firms. But here's what we've learned. TV advertising is still driving massive results. That's why I'm excited to announce we're expanding into traditional marketing, starting with our new VP of media, Sarah Parisi. This is personal injury mastermind Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO. Today, she's breaking down exactly how top firms win with tv. From negotiating station rates to measuring true performance as streaming continues to reshape how people watch, Sarah shows why broadcast remains essential for personal injury law firms. Looking to scale, people are cutting the.
- [00:34]
B
Cord and looking for alternatives in ways to consume media. That's the biggest change for me. I no longer even consider cable as having a spot within your branding marketing budget. You know, cable budgets have dwindled. Local broadcast marketing is still there, it is still viable, and I believe it is still the number one slot for, you know, starting your branding efforts.
- [01:02]
A
You got the, the, the OTT emerging, you got the ctv, you know, the OTP being the streaming and then the CTV being like your Roku's and Apple tv. How you know, at least on the outside, everything I've seen is like, these buys are just so much more expensive. And it seems like there's this still this heavy push because we've got this audience is like, oh, nobody watches tv, they're all watching streaming. I'm like, but your distribution costs are way higher. So what do you see there? Is it just too fragmented? Is that what you see?
- [01:37]
B
So you have to look at where you're buying it from. Are you going to a service such as Mountain, who has very much of a Google or Facebook type of bidding setting, or are you going direct to publisher, meaning you're looking at the actual, I like to refer to as a directory or phone book where you see the actual demographics of this audience that you get through this network. You can apply geo targeting through it. So it is a very much more targeted approach. And when you're reducing the audience size, size, it's going to get more expensive. There are certain pieces that I still believe are evolving. The cost per thousand for the streaming services is one of them. The argument that they have for keeping those prices at those, at those costs per thousands is because you're guaranteed that impression. You're actually paying for somebody who is actively watching. And it is a narrowed certain, it's a narrowed point target. However, I do not believe that paying $35 cost per thousands are ever going to be a efficient return on investment. If you can see There's a hot zone over here or a hot zone, you know, to the west side. However, you pinpoint those actual clients that have signed up in the past, if you're able to go within that actual geography of where you've had success and continue to have success, then it may be worth it to pay that higher, you know, cost per thousand. However, could you get the same and utilize though that's those same marketing dollars to further your branding awareness and messaging via a. A cheaper and more cost effective cost per thousand? Yes. Yes you can.
- [03:22]
A
Yeah. Let's talk about a big market. Let's just say there's a personal injury attorney, they have a good budget, they want to go into a market like Houston, right? You got Mr. Jim Adler there, we've got Thomas J. Henry kind of floating over there. What kind of considerations for that individual that wants to target a big dma, what should they be thinking about? Capital.
- [03:48]
B
Capital. That's the answer. Your capital essentially for how you're going to execute these plans. And you don't only have to plan out for a month or two months. You, you have to be looking years down the line that you can commit to that level of spending. Because in the Houston dma, it is not cheap to go in to the TV broadcast, TV landscape. It's not cheap to go into, you know, the billboard landscape. Yes, you get one or two, but one or two isn't going to cut it. When you're basically at, you know, it's not the personal injury mecca, but man, the condensed amount of attorneys within one geographical location. They, the, the audience, the, the actual residents of that dma, they could pick from a variety. You have to be memorable, you have to be different. You have to go at it from an angle of breaking from the noise, dude. I mean, you're looking at a monthly investment of 3:50, $350,000 or more. I mean, and that's just off the top of my head.
- [04:54]
A
Let me talk, you know, just in general about like the, just the positioning of, of buys, right? So it's not even just the station, it's like what time I, I heard this recently where like the Weather Channel, like you want to be on before the weather and like after the weather, everybody drops off. So, so talk about like just some of these nuanced things, like is it best, you know, if you're only going to get one Price is Right, you're at the very end like, like what are some of the nuances? Let's get really granular.
- [05:25]
B
If you're on broadcast Television, your, your primary focus should be on those daytime direct response hours, having those phones ringing while your office is open. And the reason why I think it's so important to kind of hammer this piece home is because if I'm sitting there and I'm hurt, I want to talk to somebody who's actively in the law firm office. I don't know if after hours, if it's a call center service, is it somebody who's by themselves in the building? Because I know I'm not going to talk to the attorney. I know they're not there right now. And even if you never get to talk to the attorney on your first phone call, I think that it says something just knowing that the building is open, that they are actively taking calls. And they took your call with care and compassion. So daytime hours for the bulk of your buy and then you expand outward. So daytime being 9a to 5p. Why 9a? If you're hurt or you know, you know, from an accident, whether we were. Or workers comp, you know, whatever, I don't think you're going to be up watching the 7am news or the 5am news. You could be just from a lack of sleep, but it's not, that's not the main audience at the time. The main audience that those met, that those commercials hit are those people who are getting ready for work. They're putting their kids in their car. You know, they're, they're, they are active, they're watching the weather, they're hearing the new, the highlights of the news before they head out to work that day. Your average would just be kind of white noise. And could it be hitting a couple of people who might be white? You want the mindless television. You want, you want the 9A to 5P. Not only that, it is, you know, you're paying a premium for 7A to 9A those, you know, especially on CBS, ABC and NBC. You know, those are your national news times. And that comes at a premium. You want to have a healthy saturation level within those time periods. Meaning you want to make sure that you're covering certain hour blocks. You don't want to have, you know, okay, I'm on from, I've got spots over here anywhere from 9 to 10 and then 10 to 11. But then I'm nowhere seen until 3 to 4. No, no, no. You want to have a presence on some broadcast network during every hour block. And that's just speaks to good reach and frequency. But ultimately, as it being the bulk of your buy for your direct Response calls and putting in front of viewers. That messaging of that urge, that CTA call to action, that's going to be the bulk.
- [07:59]
A
That's great stuff. Thank you. I didn't even think of that. But yeah, if I'm injured, I'm not like getting up super early. I'm probably sleeping in that day. What are you looking for in terms of like, average CPMs, just in general, and then types of stations.
- [08:12]
B
If I'm going into a local D, M, A and any dma, if I were to average them all out, at the end of the day, you're looking for something around $6 cost per thousand. You know, five years ago, I would have said $5 cost per thousand. That was kind of, you know, my standard. You're going to come in below that in some markets. You're going to come in over that in some markets. So when you see stations, when you request for proposals that come through and they've got $12 cost per thousand, $17 cost per thousand. No way, man. No.
- [08:37]
A
Are they just juicing the margins? Are they, are they, are they negotiating with stations and they sell on a 12 so that they're splitting with the buyer on the 6? Is that what they're doing? Plus that 15%?
- [08:48]
B
No, what they're doing is they don't think that you know what you're doing. So they're testing you right out the gate. They're going to be sending you the highest price point and then they're going to be betting or, or saying, okay, are they gonna, are they gonna lower this down? Are they gonna try and negotiate with me? How far down can they go? So they know bottom line. But like, I love negotiating. I love to sit on the phone and talk to reps and say, no, no, no, tell me the truth. Where is it? And if I, am I going to get like 90% clearance? Am I going to get 20% clearance? So the amount of spots that are preempted. So when you are negotiating and you are dead cent, let's say they offered you a spot for a hundred bucks and based on your calculations, you're not taking anything less than 50 while the rep's like, I'll give you it for $50, but you're never going to see any airtime, meaning your spots are never going to run, so what good is it at that point? However, you have to be able to gauge the BS factor, if I may say that, you have to know that they're going to try and scare you and say, like, oh, that's never Going to clear. It's never going to clear. Okay, we'll just, just, just see if it does. Let's just see what happens.
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A
Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There's all kinds of sirens going off in my head. What do you mean that you buy and you agree on a $50 or the spot and then it is, don't run it like, like what are we talking about here?
- [10:13]
B
Well, they're going, they might say that to you just because they don't want to give that low of a rate.
- [10:20]
A
They want to play the, the limited inventory scarcity scared from a selling component.
- [10:27]
B
Because they know if they get, they could get you up just to 60, then maybe their station manager won't be like, man, who gave us rate out? Or you're already, this is our rate. You're going way below our rate card. This is going to skew. And you just have to know that at the end of the day when you're negotiating with the stations, you want to say, I'm looking to place an annual like I'm, I'm looking to place a significant amount of funding with you and I'll meet you on a couple of areas. You know, my, my personal, the way that I go about it is I put stars beside them and basically saying I will not go below this number. This is my end all be all. But if it, if it's on a program that I really, really want, then maybe I pull up short on a program that I kind of want to add on. It's not necessity, but it would be nice to have it as part of the buy. And maybe I concede a little bit there where and, but I asked for the full negotiated what I want my, my rate on the program that I really want. So it's a give and a take. The siren going off. Don't know, don't panic. It doesn't mean that we're just going to let thereby you know, never see the light of day. This is all in the pre planning phases. When you're sitting down and you're combing through their actual lineup and you're saying, okay, I'm going to place an annual with you at this and if we get blown out, then I'll come back to you. We'll, we'll redo it because it's not doing anybody a favor. It's not doing a service to the client if the spot never airs. We want to be in that program. But I also want to believe that it's not going to see the light of day. I also Want to have that as a factual, you know, proof is in the pudding. I want that to happen before I go any higher because I can't justify paying that rate, paying that type of cost per thousand out the gate. And if they're, you know, if they stand firm, then okay, you're standing firm. If I've had some reps tell me like I'll never be able to enter that in. No, like this is my bottom line.
- [12:29]
A
Let's talk about negotiation. Every station has leverage points from annual commitments to off peak inventory. Sarah reveals exactly how firms, they use leverage with TV stations to secure better rates and premium spots. She breaks down how relationships evolve over time and these strategies that give you the real negotiating power.
- [12:50]
B
I think you just money talks. You never ever release or let them know your budget, but you want to give them some indication that this is going to be a good payday for them. Should we get to this point? Point I have in every intention of purchasing. If our negotiation goes well today, then I have every intention of putting every program that we've spoken about on this buy. At the end of the day, a station rep wants, you know, to be, to have the top share out of all their stations in the market. You know, they want consistency. They don't want, you know, one or two weeks or a month, you know, placing an annual get. It has a sense of security, it has a sense of reassurance that okay, their commissions are going to for this client they bought out for the whole year. So there's a lot of leverage that you can play with that knowing how long out you're in advance you're making that placement.
- [13:49]
A
When you're talking SaaS products, you know, you pay for the tool up front, you get that 10% discount. When you're negotiating for TV and you're intending to run for a year, do you still cut the check and pay it for that full year?
- [14:04]
B
Okay, so let me take your question in two parts. The first one I want to address is that yes, you can pay for the whole year. And does that help with your negotiation? Absolutely, it does you and there are several clients that like to do that for business operation purposes. You know what I'm saying? I'm not sure. Can I say the tax word? You can edit that off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, but for tax purposes, there are a lot of people who like to cut those checks up front.
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A
The IRS is not going to jump out and just get you.
- [14:31]
B
Oh no. Are they listening? We don't know. Okay. But I would. That doesn't mean that you can't make changes to the buy or, or that your buy is just assumed to be locked in. Your, your media buying team, your, your marketing agency should still be measuring the monthly airtime and, and auditing those placements to make sure that they were aired and we using the right creative during the airtime that you purchased or that the order indicated. So I would seriously say if you cut that check, that's, that's not the danger. The danger is ignoring it for the. Assuming that everything's going to run right because that's not reality.
- [15:19]
A
That, that being a good steward of media is the nightmare stories that I hear. I think you said add backs or take backs. When I hear that, I'm like what the hell do you mean I paid for this spot and they just decided not to run it and now I gotta negotiate an add back or take back. Like come on, give me a break.
- [15:36]
B
Make goods.
- [15:37]
A
Make goods. That's the word.
- [15:39]
B
So basically and those come, you know, daily or weekly. It could be something where somebody else how a make good works. So there's levels. You have a certain order in which your spot is favored. They put you in a ranking system almost into their own system. And it's based on how much you're willing to pay for that spot in that program. And if somebody comes in and pays a little bit more than you and the that block or that pod is full, your spot gets bumped. Now the station rep will do their best to get the spot back into that same program within that same week. If they can't, then they send you a make good and they're trying to get that spot into the next week or the following week. And if there's nothing available there, then they offer you a different program. The what you need to know about make goods is that it is a, it's a happens every day. This is a standard thing that goes on whether or not you're negotiating super hard or not. Like there inevitably will be times in which your spots are bumped. It could be not just from somebody else who's paying more than you. It could be due to a breaking news factor, you know, within your local market there might be some type of, you know, emergency or you know, think the California wildfires, you know, all that programming for weeks, you know, just is gone. So any advertiser is going to have a lot of their spots, you know, their order bumped out. So the station reps then have to put together a plan to make up those bump spots. What as a buyer, what you're looking for is to make sure that you're getting the same value of impressions that you originally negotiated and put on the order for that missed spot. You're making sure that it says that program matched what I was missed. You know, does that. It's not the same if you're taking a spot out of Dr. Phil and putting it into the new news. Is that the same audience? You know, it's not the same genre. So you'd want to make sure that it fits your strategy, that make good schedule still fits the strategy and you're wanting to make sure that still fits the cost per thousand that you were originally paying for. So, you know, the key indicators to really, you know, stay on top of your media buying game is to know, first of all, is this happening every week? Are the same number of spots coming out every single week? Because then that goes back to my, one of my first points in saying, yes, we may negotiate this lower rate, but I'm going to keep an eye on it. If we continue to get bumps, then I will revise the schedule. We'll try, we'll, we'll incrementally increase the rate so we can get some more clearance time. Because nobody wants to be doing that many makeups. It does nobody good if the spots are continuously preempted week over week over week. So, but you know, occasionally there's just preemptions happen and make good just a standard part of that day to day maintenance schedule.
- [18:28]
A
Let me talk about something near and dear to the old personal injury attorney arts that drives me absolutely bonkers. But let's talk about this one. Geographic exclusivity. And you know, is there, you know, when I look at options like radio, well there's, there's less P.I. attorneys on it. Outdoor, you can negotiate line of sight provisions. What kind of things can you play utilize for TV for? You know, for me I'm type A when you said, hey, you got to come in at the top. I'm coming at the top. Like I'm coming in, I'm not coming in week. I'm not going to buy these remnants at 1am on these shows that nobody watches. I'm coming in, Mr. Adler, Mr. Thomas J. Henry. And I'm going at them like, how can I come into a market like this and, and try to bully my way in and make myself a threat.
- [19:24]
B
In two exclusivity pieces to whatever I.
- [19:28]
A
Can do to get the best spots, the most distribution in these grandfathered scenarios where the Guy's been on TV 10, 20 years in the Same market.
- [19:42]
B
When you go into these markets and you want to make sure that your messaging is not drowned out by additional competitors. Yes you can.
- [19:49]
A
But can I, can I do a little asterisk? I want to say, look, I, I love Thomas J. I love Jim Madler, I love these guys. I'm just using them as examples because they are the 810 pound gorillas at least in these markets that we're talking about.
- [20:00]
B
So then continue 100. No, we love it. You know, if you're dominating your market, cheers to you man.
- [20:07]
A
Cheers to you.
- [20:07]
B
That's the ideal scenario. And you, nobody's going to try and steal your thunder. But I will say that, you know, if it were me and I was coming in, I want, I want some Monday exclusivities I want. And you're going to also have to let go of the cost per thousand notion. It's not going to be as efficient. In order to get exclusivity within a pod. Pod is like a break of the TV commercial break. In order to be the first spot in the break, that's a premium. In order to be the first spot in all breaks on a day of the week, that's another premium. In order to be the only attorney airing spots from the hours of 9a to 4p on a Monday, that's a premium and it's an exclusivity premium. And you will pay probably three times the rate of what you could if you had just submitted the standard order. Now you can pay that all you want. Do you have the team that's monitoring it to ensure that that's actually happening? Are you able to get that competitive data, that verification? Because the station's not going to email you the other client's post logs. That's a violation. So the only way you're going to.
- [21:24]
A
That's where you got to look at them. On Vivix and Kantar media monitors.
- [21:28]
B
Yes, your media buyer, if they're placing an exclusivity, if they're doing an exclusivity play, then it has to be monitored. You have to double check and verify through Vivix or it's actually now they've changed their name again Media Radar. So you have to verify that else they are, you're due a credit. You, you know, there's really no way to check for separation unless you're going through that competitive software. And to anybody who tries to tell you yes, you know, we'll check, make sure, make sure because their accidents happen, you have an exclusivity on your Buy more often than not, you're going to have a credit every month. Hey everyone. Sarah Parisi. The biggest law firms already know the secret. Broadcast TV builds brands that last generations. But it takes more than buying airtime to do it just right. At Rankings, we are bringing 15 years of media buying expertise to help your firm become a household name. Now you can get the same data driven approach for TV that made Rankings the omnichannel leader. Let's build a legacy brand together. Go to Rankings IO. I'll be waiting for you.
- [22:50]
A
Having created that distinctive, you don't need as much frequency because you, you do stand up. You are, you are memorable. Right. From a TV perspective, what's the minimum that they should be thinking about rotating their creative just in general. Right. There's always the asterisk of some ad that just rock and rolls. And this is amazing versus like, like flipping out creative on a monthly that seems like way too frequent, how often should they be thinking about creative? And not only that creative for the different stations. So maybe you got one that's you're a big sports fan and some type of creative before the sports channels and you got another one that's talking about their love for the holiday times before your hallmark. Yeah, commercial.
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B
It's based upon impressions. Ad exhaustion. How many eyeballs have seen this before? They're sick of it. You know, that's really the name. It's not necessarily how many stations is it on or how many programs is it on. How many impressions has this creative exhausted in its lifespan? Typically, if you're going in a market and you're, you've got a healthy schedule, let's just say it's, you know, around 300 to 500 impressions a week. You know, at that level of schedule, you could keep an ad for one, for one creative, a 30 and a 15. You could keep that, you know, quarter. That would be, that would be healthy. I would switch it out every quarter. You know, if it's something where you are in the thousands of impressions a week, then I would suggest you maybe have a rotating schedule of a couple of creatives, you know, you know, three, maybe four.
- [24:40]
A
Let's, let's talk about the types. Right, so I'm going to echo Harlan Schillinger here where he talks about the speed and greed type of ads. Have you been injured? Have you been hurt? Versus like maybe the, the ones where they're, you know, around the coffee table and they're more casual and they're talking or then you got the client testimonial type videos let's talk about the different mixes and, and styles too.
- [25:08]
B
So for a direct response ad, I, you know, I lean on the times in which the business is open. A viewer is going to consider a law firm just like they would a doctor's office or a dentist school. You're, you're open during the hours of like 9 to 5. So when you're doing a direct response ad, you're speaking to those who are actively injured and they're mindless, scrolling on tv. They're just laying on the couch, they're injured and you're giving them a sense of urgency. That call to action is a direct response. That, that notion like, hey, are you injured? You know, call us now. It's the repeat of the phone number. It's letting them know how much you've gotten for your previous clients and what you're known for. Those higher senses of urgency ads, those are my daytime, because maybe they're frustrated. Not maybe they're likely frustrated. They're likely sitting there wondering how they're going to get their bills paid and, you know, what is their family going to do? And that goes off not just into auto, but workers comp, you know, nursing homes, Social Security. It's not necessarily a branding component, which that leads into testimonials. Direct response is your daytime. We're open. Call us now. Let us see how we can help. Call us now. Call us now. And then listing your phone number for the testimonial. Not to say that you can't air a testimonial during those same ads. And then after hours, so the time of day in which most businesses are closed, you're thinking, you know, 5pm all the way to 12am that's your opportunity to hone in on your branding creatives. Your, this is who I am. This is what I've been able to do in my community. These are your testimonials, These are your conversations where you're interacting with your community. You're really carrying that message of added branding measures, further giving that viewer the confidence and the understanding of who you are as an attorney and how you help people in your community.
- [27:01]
A
Talk to me about the earned media component, right? You see Jim Adler holding the sledgehammer Char, you know, yelling at the truck. You've got learner and rogue bopping around in these Mario Karts and you've got Mr. Darrell Isaacs in the Midwest that's, you know, playing like in the Star wars theme. Or talk to me about the virality, the earned media component and how that plays into Maybe the success of a campaign and tv, it has to be.
- [27:27]
B
Done well and it actually has to be funny. I think it is relevant to the times and it is impactful in a, in a comical but not too much way. You know, you don't want to go too far. And to where the point that it's cheesy and it, it may. It's like, oh, gosh, cringe for that dude. You want to tag you. You want to have a little catchphrase. You want to have something that they remember you by. It's like, oh, yeah, what was that guy driving around in a Mario Kart? Was his name, let's call him.
- [27:52]
A
And then you've got like the, I would say category or practice specific, where the individuals are yelling at a semi truck, standing on a truck, side by side of a truck, stopping. Amanda Demanda stops a semi truck with her heel. You've got a lot of references to the semi truck, and I've heard different variations of this. I've heard that, you know, you know, the, you know, when we're talking Shannara, we're talking the Minnows and the Marlins, and we're talking, you know, a big semi truck might be worth 70 to 90 of a standard auto accident. What do you think in regards to incorporating the semi truck into some of these commercials and just your thoughts in general on that?
- [28:38]
B
I think that really what you should start, you know, looking at it in terms of resonating with your audience and instead of more of a dramatic or, you know, theatrical point of view, is just saying these things happen here. What are some statistics that I could give the audience about 18 wheeler accidents and what has one of my former clients gone through? You know, what were the hardships that their family had to endure? I think that's going to grab more people's attention and have, to be quite honest, a higher level of authenticity than a dramatic cut ad.
- [29:15]
A
Hmm. I think, I think this is the one spot where I'm like, question mark? Because I. Because I know, like, Amanda's commercials are very distinctive to me that stand out, that pink heel and like the colors of her brand. And I could see, you know, your Gordon McKernan or your. These other individuals, your Jim Adler ads associate with these trucks. It's like paints a picture in my brain that I just can't get away from. How many times should they be on a certain station? Is it a 4? Is it a 5? Is it a 7? Like, does that come into play? Like, if you're been there for years versus A new buyer. How do you think about the frequency component?
- [30:01]
B
So frequency is interesting and to give you to resonate with the audience, I just want you to sit down and think. My favorite example to use is the Price is Right. It has a faithful following. When you sit down to watch the Price is Right, you watch the beginning, and then everybody wants to see the end. You're watching very few bathroom breaks. I mean, if you're a true Price is Right fan, you're watching through the ad breaks. How many ads would you want to see?
- [30:30]
A
$1, Bob. Just kidding.
- [30:32]
B
Okay, continue. So how many ads? If you saw the same commercial and every break, I don't think it would be a positive feeling. You'd be sitting there being like, golly, all right, what's next? You know, it, it's. I, I would never want more than two spots of my own ad airing in one program per day. You get ad exhaustion. So it, it makes your spot less efficient over time. But you are not wanting to drill it to the point of annoyance. You're wanting to create a steady reminder, a brand recall from it. And so you know when you're sitting there and you're in your program that you are committed to watching start to finish, that is when I would say, think about what you would want.
- [31:17]
A
Okay, so we had Alexander Shannara on several episodes ago, and he talked about this, like, amazing negotiation he had with, I think, Lamar on Outdoor, where he bought, like, all the remnant billboards and got. I don't know what price he got, but I'm assuming a hell of a deal. Right? Are there situations where you just go to the TV station and be like, look, I want all your remnant TV spots that you're not selling, or are they just holding those back and playing the scarcity model? And it doesn't work like that for TV like it does with outdoor.
- [31:49]
B
Do not fall for that trap of remnant media.
- [31:52]
A
Okay, okay, expound. Why is remnant media on TV in general? We'll put an asterisk because I do that with SEO too.
- [31:59]
B
I know people are going to scream.
- [32:01]
A
In general, they're going to scream. They're not going to agree. But, like, I buy remnant and I get cases, so why in general, is it a bad play?
- [32:08]
B
In general, you have no control over where your spots are. A remnant media placement is basically saying, okay, we're going to give you this cost per thousand. It's going to be much cheaper. Is it efficient? Yes. Is it case efficient?
- [32:23]
A
No.
- [32:24]
B
No. Is it branding efficient? Are you erring in the time periods in which your audience is watching. Are you airing in the time periods in which you want your branding message to be read based upon the creative that you're airing? I've. I want control over the buy. I want control over where the spots are aired because it fits a certain methodology and strategy. A further strategic evolution into the growth of the branding and marketing direct response campaigns. So for me, Remnant just basically takes all my control away and no leverage. None. None. Yes, you're getting a great deal that do believe that with Remnant, they can take you off of one and put you on another one at any given time. So they can rotate out the billboard wraps. So if somebody, a client comes along and they're actually willing to pay the unit price, then they can pull you off of it and put you in a different spot and you can't do anything about it.
- [33:32]
A
Everyone knows how Hallmark Channel viewership explodes during the holidays. These predictable winter romance marathons that take over every December. This seasonality has a major impact on TV ad spending. Sarah breaks down exactly how supply, demand and audience shifts affects during media buys throughout the year and what that means for your campaign strategy.
- [33:53]
B
The Hallmark channel in itself has a seasonality. I treat it very much like sports. It's coming at a premium. Yes. Your audience is increasing. Is it necessarily worth it for a branding ad for Hallmark? I disagree that being a national placement, but I, I wanted. That's why I wanted to tie it into something that I would consider very similar to a seasonal element that would occur on local. So anytime it's something like some high school teams air at like Friday Night Lights, things like that, and it's like, you know, they. Those spots are a pretty penny, but you're getting such a larger amount of impressions and you're also resonating with the community at that time. And so your branding message is heard. If it were me, you know, maybe only like a 15 second ad instead of a 30, there's no real reason to use like the whole 30 seconds, you know, if you really wanted it. Um, but you would have to be. It is supplemental to your direct response daytime buy. It's not in place of let's talk.
- [35:01]
A
About the super bowl. So I can hear Gary Vaynerchuk talking about the. The super bowl is the most underrated buy because everyone tunes in and wants to watch the Super Bowl. I can, however, state, I remember Kanye's high production value commercial he did on the last super bowl commercial. And it's in my brain.
- [35:20]
B
Wait, who?
- [35:21]
A
Kanye West.
- [35:22]
B
Oh, okay, okay. No, I was there.
- [35:25]
A
I. Yeah, all right, and, and like, look there. People are dialed in. Like people want to watch the commercials. But like, what's your, what's your counter? That is it just, you know, cray crazy spend. You got a local market and you're spending $6 million, you know, on a spend like, like what's the, what's your thoughts on the Super Bowl?
- [35:45]
B
So I've done it and it's, it's on a local base. I've never done a national super bowl ad, but locally. So here's what you're going to look for. Don't. If you have the extra capital, let's just start there. You have to have it. Don't pull from your direct response. If you've got it, there's no real point in arguing with you because those that are inquired, they're dead set on doing it. They want me to go negotiate it. So I'm just going to.
- [36:11]
A
This is a status.
- [36:13]
B
Yes, yes, yes. Everyone is watching and there are set aside local inventory breaks. So the things that, you know, I'm not going to try and talk people out of it. That's, that's. If you come to me saying, hey, can we see what is a Super bowl price is going to be? I'm going to give you the rate as it stands unnegotiated and likely the reason why I'm doing that is because it's a very slim pickings. If you're going to get me to be able to get it lower than that, that they don't have to. There's limited inventory, it'll go filled. So you're looking for the way they sell it is going to be on quarter, based on quarter or pregame. Post game. If you're going to do it, don't do pregame or post game. You go in my opinions, the quarters that you'd want, you want first quarter and fourth quarter. People are getting up in second quarter, they're mosin around, they're hitting the snack.
- [37:11]
A
Tray again, you don't want the halftime commercials.
- [37:14]
B
So, and this is only, it's not necessarily not the halftime commercials. It depends who the guest is, who the performance is. And it also depends on the cultural demographics you're going to pay more for first quarter and fourth quarter. The, the, the down downside to that is you're in the opening break of third quarter and not everybody has come back in from outside or maybe they went, you know, on a beer run or something. I mean, I'm just, it, it's hard if you're going to do it, do it within the 1, 2 or 3 or 4. Do it active in game. And, and I would say, you know, have as much leeway as you can with the station in terms of where you're airing within that quarter. You know, try to be within the beginning of the start of the quarter. Got it.
- [38:05]
A
What about. What, what's this? Like, what, what's a cpm? Like the super bowl cost. That's gotta be wild.
- [38:12]
B
It's not as crazy what you think. It depends what market, but honestly, anywhere from 30 to 47.
- [38:17]
A
Oh, so that's, that's not as bad. It's not as bad as I thought. That actually makes me think it's a good buy, Sarah, because you got so many people tuning in and wanting to watch the commercials.
- [38:25]
B
It depends what market you're in, though. Like. I mean.
- [38:27]
A
Yeah, yeah. And we're not, you know, a whole different line on the whole. CPMs on programmatic, when you start talking about Hulu and they're charging in per, per person on the couch.
- [38:39]
B
And that's wild to me.
- [38:41]
A
You've mentioned 15s, you've mentioned 30s. What type of situations come into play where you do a 60? And I don't even know, like, like, is there a two minute, Is there these super long segments? You definitely get to know the individual better. They can tell, like a longer story. I've heard one of our biggest clients say that they like the 30s more than the 15s. And then I've, I've heard that, you know, Morgan, and Morgan likes the 15s and wants to come in at 40% of the market and like blow everyone out, but loves the 15s. Like. So talk to me about these spots. When does it make sense to maybe do a 60?
- [39:22]
B
It doesn't. Don't do a 60.
- [39:25]
A
Okay.
- [39:25]
B
It doesn't.
- [39:26]
A
That's fighting words for a previous guest listening.
- [39:29]
B
That's fine. That's fine. Don't do the 60 unless you're mass tort. And occasionally that is necessary in order to give more information about the actual, you know, injury. But a 60 for direct response or is it for branding? I don't, I've never, I personally never done a 60 for local.
- [39:52]
A
It's just, it's just the costs aren't commensurate with the, with the length of time. Is that, is that what it adds up to?
- [39:58]
B
It's, it's, it's too long. What are you going to talk about for that long, man? Like, what are you going to say? And I think that that kind of speaks Back to the fact that you're wanting branding and you're wanting to hammer home, hammer home the message. And that's really what the 15 for. You know, your 15 is a condensed version of your 30 where you're just pounding that call to action through. Again, you're saying, call me now. Here's the 800 number. You're committing it to the audience's memory. It's just a re issuing of the same message in a shorter, condensed version. The 30 is really where you get the talk time to speak and to show that, hey, I'm in this market. I'm fighting for you guys. This is my 30 second message. And again, I'm talking about broadcast television. So to be clear, are there situations where you might say, for instance on YouTube, that you want to do a longer one minute segment commercial and highlight more, you know, showcase it, use it kind of like a TikTok, if you will. You know, where you're walking around your office and you're familiarizing yourself with the audience? Sure, yeah. I'm not saying. But in my experience, if I'm buying it On a broadcast TV network, your, your one minute ad is going to be double the 30. And I just from there you're doubling your cost per thousand. For what? I'm, I'm, I'm. That makes me a little bit confused.
- [41:27]
A
What about, you know, the fancy words, the incrementality testing? You know, you, you test one creative for this DMA versus that dma. You know, they do that a lot on the programmatic. They love to do that incrementality testing on the programmatic. Like what's your thoughts on some of that jargon?
- [41:46]
B
I love a good A B test. I love a good AB test. I do think there's credence to it. I don't think you do A, B, C, D test. That's too many. Okay, we need to do an ABC test. And you can tell, you know, you have to also be very patient during it because with broadcast it takes a little bit more time. You can't just do it again because you need to make sure you're reaching the full scope of the audience. So if you're going to be testing one ad, you need to test that ad for two weeks and then you do your next one. There may even, there may even be credence to do a third week. And that's just because the whole pop on, pop off effect, where is a new ad? And by default, anytime somebody sees something new, more responses come.
- [42:29]
A
CPMs are the universal language of brand awareness whether you're buying tv, radio, outdoor or digital. But tracking real ROI goes way deeper than cost per thousand. Sarah reveals the exact metrics you should use to measure TV performance. From look back windows to brand recall studies and shows how to know definitively if your TV campaigns are delivering results.
- [42:53]
B
Your agency should be measuring this for you. That is proof in what their services are providing. So for me, it's the line in the sand is drawn once I take over the buy if it's not a creative that has been put on, you know, in, in accordance with this. So if we're using, you know, let's just say you want to come over as soon as possible and we're going to continue to utilize your old creative. In the meantime, while we plan for the shoot date of your new creative, there's a first line in the sand being when we take over the buy, the second line in the sand is going to be when it's our buy and our creative and that's really the milestone. So you know, you want to show in the first line, you want to show, you know, proof of stewardness. You want to show that, hey, we're managing this and you're already seeing a increase in calls and an increase in cases. And the way that you do that is by coordinating. You know, you're a, you're a partner with this firm. I treat your dollars like they're my dollars. And I want to make sure that my placements and that the work that I'm doing is yielding you an ROI that is off the charts of what it was. I want to see the proof. I want that verification. So it's important to have somebody aligned with you at the actual office to you can, who the buyer can connect with and say, hey, you know, I need to get the number of calls and cases for last week from your firm. And it can be just like an Excel sheet. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, API integrated. But your agency should be tracking week over week your spend across all platforms because mind you, we're. Everything is evolving and transitioning over to impressions. I mean, gone are the days. I mean, I still slip up and say GRP sometimes, but impressions. So everything is apples to apples. So we're putting on a graph, a chart, a client portal, whatever method you choose, the start of the broadcast week, the amount of money that was spent and you can verify that by post logs. So it'll be a week delayed, but you're still charting it, having the client's performance and charted of your buys from your agency, all on a graph that they can access. And then over top of that lays, here's how many calls you got, here's how many cases you got. So then when you're doing this historical logging, you know, having, again, it's important to have somebody at the firm who is willing to be this partner with you. Listen, we're showing you information, we're exchanging this. I don't need names, phone numbers, anything. But I want to know what was your average prior to us taking over? Because that's going to show the improvement, that's going to show the proof of service and the reason why, you know, you moved over here. And it just gives that credence that you've got a partner who's performing for you, who's tracking this along with you, not to mention who can proactively. And let's just say maybe you don't have weekly calls with them, but you get the information weekly. So you're, you're tracking a change, a decline in calls. You're like, what's going on? We're spending that. What's happening here? It could be a variety of things, but the proactive nature of a buyer, their red flag is going to go up and say, okay, I need to look into this, because we are spending the same amount of money. The placements haven't changed, but the calls and cases are declining slowly and consistently week over week. There's a problem here. Let's investigate this. Go ahead and email the client, let them know, hey, we noticed this. Is there any feedback you can tell me, is there something going on in the market that maybe I'm not aware of? Boots on ground. What's your sense? What's the pulse that you've got the read on? And then letting them know, regardless if you are aware of anything or if you're not, we're looking into it and we're going to make some changes, we're going to make some revisions.
- [46:48]
A
So, yeah, and that, that, that's again, that, that steward of media, that's, that's proactive versus reactive.
- [46:54]
B
Yes.
- [46:55]
A
And getting out ahead of it.
- [46:56]
B
And in truth, what one of the most shocking things that I hear all the time when I'm meeting clients for the first time. I, you know, I'll ask them, you know, how do you feel like your buy is performing? He's like, well, you know, you know, I think they're doing pretty good. What you think? No, like, well, you know, I don't have. I've been doing pretty good around here. You know, calls keep coming in and I'm like, maybe you don't know. He's like, you know, I think on average we spend about this much where there's so much disconnect between the agency and I know that the attorneys are busy. So I'm not saying you have to be busy with this, but you should be updated enough to where, let's say you looked at it after hours in your spare time just to see, okay, what's my marketing team doing for me? How are they, you know, dealing with these changes? How are they dealing with, there's a new competitor in the market. Are they making sure to combat this? Nobody's reached out to me, sent an email letting me know. Are they even aware? These are things that happen in which your media buyer or your account manager should be emailing and saying, hey, just a heads up, we've got a new competitor in the market. Let us know if you'd like to apply any additional spend or do any type of new plays, meaning a strategy play. Otherwise, we're going to continue to monitor it a little heavier over the coming weeks so we can report back to let you know what kind of spend level we're seeing and then we can go from there. There has to be a plan, there has to be a way in which you are proactively treating this investment as if it were your own. The only way that you're really going to be able to be a true steward to the client.
- [48:44]
A
TV advertising remains a powerful tool for personal injury law firms. But as we've seen today, success comes down to the details. From the negotiation tactics and performance tracking. Sarah's shown us exactly how top firms are making broadcast TV work in today's fragmented media landscape. And we're just getting started. I'm Chris Strier. You've been listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. If you're ready for part two, subscribe so you're the first to know when it comes out. See you next. I'm out.