← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
320. Trial Ready (Without a War Chest): Virtual Focus Groups Help Small PI Firms Get Max Case Value
00:18:47
The Surprisingly Affordable Way Small PI Firms Can Be Trial Ready: Elizabeth Larrick's Virtual Focus Group System That Doesn't Require a War Chest
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- [00:05]
Chris Dreyer
When a high value case walks through your door, you know this could be the catalyst that transforms your practice, the case that puts your firm on the map. But there's a problem. Without a substantial war chest, you're faced with two difficult choices for the case out. And get a fraction of the case value or risk your entire practice on a case you can't afford to lose. But what if there's a third option? What if there was a low cost alternative that provides hard data and strong insights on how to make the right decision for your firm case by case? Today's guest, Elizabeth Laric discovered exactly that. Her approach allows small to mid sized PI firms to confidently handle cases they would have previously referred out without needing the traditional war chest. Let's dive in.
- [00:48]
Elizabeth Laric
I had been already kind of running focus groups and was just loving it. You know, there was a group of us here in town and we'd get together and it was just, it was a ton of fun and I was using it for my cases and then just helping people with theirs. And it really kind of slowly started to evolve and I saw that I had a bigger pull towards doing this work versus that litigation set of files. And, and so I said, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna plant my flag and I'm gonna go for it. But come in on Saturdays. I had an office space that I designed specific for lay for focus group. So it was, it, you know, felt like everything was kind of falling together.
- [01:29]
Chris Dreyer
You spent years in the trenches as a plaintiff's personal injury lawyer. So I guess, I guess what first drew you to the trial work? Because there's a lot of lawyers that don't track cases.
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Elizabeth Laric
I've always done plaintiff's personal injury side. I just, I loved it. And I got a taste of it very early on my first job. It was like, okay, we go to trial, this is what we're doing. And so really made sure I was getting in the courtroom. I had a very good mentor also found my way over to kind of a trial strategy school of at the time it was called Reptile. Now it's called the Edge. And just really loved the teaching aspect of it and teaching other lawyers. And so again, kind of very lucky that I fell in with this group. And then I got to get up on stage and really try to, you know, work on my communication skills and learn about how to do focus groups. And it really just grew into then teaching lawyers, having people do focus groups with me and witness prep. You can build a great firm, but you kind of have to make a decision about yourself, about running the business or doing the thing. And, and I saw this as an alternative way. Like I can still get in the courtroom and help people do these things without having this giant law firm or really a giant flywheel to support getting enough cases along down the road to go to trial. And so that's really kind of where I thought, you know, what if people like this, I'm going to try it. And it really, it worked out well.
- [02:59]
Chris Dreyer
There's so much to unpack there. People that don't bring cases to trial are going to have issues. I think it puts more value in what you do and persuasion and jury and focus groups, everything. Inner circle. With Don Keenan, nationally recognized trial lawyer. How did working with him kind of shape your philosophy on jury persuasion?
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Elizabeth Laric
Coming from a small firm background and then being able to step into a firm where it's national, they trial large cases. And that was really what I got a taste of, was two weeks, three week trials where we're preparing for months in advance and really getting to see a solid framework with was really helpful. But then also I think working on the side of we're going to case, we're going to do some workshops, we're going to teach lawyers depositions, so we're going to teach them mediation. And just being on the other side of that, of getting to see all these different cases and how that consulting worked and then really rolled into jury selection, what are we looking for? It's a light bulb moment of like, whoa, you know, and also getting to see him particularly do jury selection was just like, whoa. Because then we got to go back and it was like, why did you ask that question? Or what was happening there? And really getting some good insight onto kind of putting the whole picture together about strategy and persuasion and communication. And it really definitely had a huge impact on my creativity of thinking about cases, creativity about thinking about a road ahead. For me that while I liked doing litigation and love it and how can I move forward in what I really want to do, but and help people with this piece that is persuasion and focus groups and putting kind of the big picture together.
- [04:50]
Chris Dreyer
That's fantastic. I want to talk about, you know, maximizing the case value and the reason we do this. You know, you've got the data users like Sean Clagett and then you have Rex and Kale who don't use big data. It's more psychology and NLP and to try to determine what they're going to come in for an offer and then. And then you've got now the focus groups. So, like, we're all trying to do the same thing. We're trying to maximize the case value. So tell me about how they can make an impact and where it comes into play on that.
- [05:22]
Elizabeth Laric
I'm working with solo, small firm, maybe sometimes mid firm, and you get that big case, like you really need to maximize it. You need to be making really good decisions about what you're asking for, how you're framing the case early on. You get in there, you just think, oh, it's an 18 wheeler or oh, it's, they're just gonna hand you over a check. And it's like, yeah, they will, but it won't be what you really need to be working that case up. And so the way that I like to frame doing these focus groups is because they are as short as an hour you can get in there, Chris, before you even file and do one hour to find out what is on people's blackboard and take that into the deposition and start to grow it into something. Because what you want to be able to do is really plan to grow that case in every single possible way. If you try to wait until trial. Because people, people like, well, I'm gonna wait, right? I'm gonna only do that mock jury, that large data, like right at the very end. Like, there are so many places you've missed to maximize case value in the liability facts in the damages. A small investment with a huge amount of value. You can really start to work that into your case early and show the defense, show the decision makers back there that you're serious and you're doing your homework because you're giving the jury what they already want. People are upfront and they're going to tell you really quickly in those focus groups what they like and what they don't like.
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Chris Dreyer
Sometimes a case looks good on paper and then it turns out it's like looking like it's going to be a money pit. What's something that comes to mind that you've seen from like these focus groups really, really help and avoid those red flags?
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Elizabeth Laric
Absolutely. Good example I have is where someone is injured on a construction site. Now you've got subcontractors, general contractor, landowner, bill, you know, all these people. And what they wanted to know was, are they going to pin down the right person? And they just said, we want to know how they're going to respond and who they're going to put down as responsible. And ultimately after that focus group, they said, you know what, we're just not going to pursue it. There's just not going to be really a viable way without dumping a large amount of money in the, to possibly maybe get a little bit of recovery.
- [07:41]
Chris Dreyer
I guess in those scenarios it's like, hey, let's, let's refer to a legit, you know, well established litigating firm and you, and then you know, you're getting the referral, but you also don't have all those, those costs upfront, so maybe those come into play later. So let's talk about that smaller, smaller firm. I think you've even used the phrase, you know, trial ready on a budget. From your experience, what does it look like for a smaller firm to be trial ready without breaking the bank?
- [08:11]
Elizabeth Laric
I think it's really knowing strategically when to check in because you want to be able to find the blind spots in a case before you take the big depots, right before you go in and you try to take out an expert. I mean there's a lot of different thoughts on that, but a lot of people really, because you really need to be making a decision about trial well beforehand because you got to save up your dollars. You're not going to be working on anything else. And so what I see people who are smaller firms, but they want to be trial ready, right? They want to do it all like, and they say, okay, like six months out, let's just do one hour. Okay, now we're three months out, let's do a two hour. Okay, now we're getting a little closer, we're getting a better settlement offer. Let's do it one more time, let's do a three hour. There's a lot of flexibility in these zoom focus groups. We're not doing the entire case. Every single time we step into a zoom focus group, we're probably looking at something in a vacuum. Maybe it's just liability, maybe it's just deposition clips to see what people think about that testimony. And what really happens is most of the time you're pretty humbled that you thought you took a great deposition and they're thinking it's like, eh, you know, it's all right. And that's the stuff that most trial ready people need to know because again, smaller to mid sized firm, you're about to invest 30, 40, 50 grand in a trial, maybe you don't make that decision and you do pivot to settlement because you're getting mixed reviews. And so that's really where I feel like people solo to small firm, even mid sized firm can start to check in a little earlier. So that you can make decisions, like I said, along the way, even if you're kind of making the decision, we're not getting the offer like. Cause that's a lot of times what happens. Maybe you don't have the trial experience or you're a new firm and they're looking at you like we'll roll the dice like, and getting that opening statement, getting those things ready. And then also what a lot of times happens is you kind of sometimes have to convince your client. And doing these, you know, these focus groups, investing in your client significantly helps them along the way as well. This is a big differentiation you can make in your law firm when you're telling a client who maybe they're shopping around or maybe they're, they've got, you know, the friend referral and you know that you're a better fit. Like how can you tell them you're going to invest in, in them and you believe in the case and you know, how can you do that? And that's again where sometimes these solo small firms are going to be able to stand out because they are trial ready, but they're also investing in the case early on.
- [10:56]
Chris Dreyer
I think just from a positioning standpoint, competence builds confidence, right? When you've done these focus groups and just having the confidence, I think people, people feel that in the courtroom. Back to the focus groups though, you know, you said one, you know, it was a mixed bag and you know, maybe could go either way. Like do you do a second focus group, a third, a fifth, a tenth? You know, in conversion rate optimization, the nerd stuff for the digital marketing, we might do an A B split test and may have to do another split test and incrementality testing. How do you, how do you go about on the focus groups? Like how do you make that decision?
- [11:33]
Elizabeth Laric
I mean you could, I mean it's analysis paralysis. I mean this is part of the reason why I myself turn into the other role and got out of running a law firm. Because I would run way too many focus groups on my cases only to really be getting the same feedback. But I just wasn't accepting it. And so a lot of times what happens is we just need more information to make the decision. And ultimately your client also has to be making that decision. And so I'm a proponent of making these little bitty moves along the way, little bitty check ins along the way. Because if you get down to the end of the line and you do one of these and it's mixed, your brain is automatically saying we gotta do another One like, but if you've been working along the way, we can go in and interpret data like, okay, we're having this one result, but don't think that's gonna cascade over everything. Like, that may be just kind of an outlier that's out there. But don't be too worried about that piece, because if you're out there doing them on your own and you just do one, it could be terrifying and you wanna do more, but you're just like, oh, my gosh. Or it can scare you the opposite way and you're gonna settle and do one of these things ever again. Which you don't want that to happen either, right? It is. It is sometimes a process of trial and error from a cost perspective. You kind of have to draw the line. And then what I also see people doing is not even diving into the information that they have. And that's what I try to tell people to do, is like, okay, you've done three. That's great. Like, go back and dive into that and see, you know, mine some more of that information out of what they're saying to you. And then ultimately has it fit into the whole plan, the scheme of what you're doing and how it will all lay out?
- [13:18]
Chris Dreyer
I think that's incredibly smart. And we know these insurance companies are mining data on everyone, and we gotta max. We gotta try cases. We can't just settle everything. I'm a trial attorney. I picked up a catastrophic case. Fill in the gap there never done a focus group. And I want to work with you. Tell me about the process, the engagement, what you do, how. How it functions. Give me the. The starts, you know, to. To where you're pointing.
- [13:41]
Elizabeth Laric
This person, most people, they listen to the podcast and they hear Sean Clagett or they hear somebody else talk about big data, but they also know, like, I don't have that or chest right. Like, I need to start somewhere where I feel comfortable. A lot of times people come with me with a specific problem or a unique case, and it's just like, I don't even know. And then what we do is we work together to figure out what is the best plan for you. So is it just a one hour, is it two, or is it three? You know, where are you at in your case? I like to look at the information. I mean, that's where my trial lawyer comes in and I want to see the details. And so we work together, we plan, we scheme. And typically what ends up happening is sometimes they'll present and I'll just moderate. Right? And then we have kind of a debrief session where we really talk about what'd you hear, what'd you see? Because I want to train people to be doing this. You, you can do these on your own. I mean that's a whole big part of what I want. People to start to do these on their own solo, small firm like do these on your own.
- [14:41]
Chris Dreyer
There you have it. A game changing approach that lets a small personal injury firm make smart decisions on big cases without breaking the bank. Virtual focus groups aren't just a cost saving tool. They're a strategic advantage that can help you confidently handle cases you might have referred out in the past. If you found value in this conversation. Make sure to subscribe to PIM so you never miss insights that can transform your practice. I'm Chris Dreyer, this is Personal Injury Mastermind. Thanks for hanging out. See you next time I'm out.