323. Small Markets, Massive Returns: Dominating the Midwest w/ AJ and Ryan Bruning

Summary

Podcast Summary: Personal Injury Mastermind – Episode 323: Small Markets, Massive Returns: Dominating the Midwest with AJ and Ryan Bruning

Introduction

In Episode 323 of Personal Injury Mastermind, host Chris Dreyer engages in an in-depth conversation with AJ and Ryan Bruning, the dynamic brothers behind the rapidly growing Bruning Law Firm. Based in St. Louis, the Bruning brothers have transformed their three-person startup into a Midwest powerhouse by leveraging data-driven marketing strategies, targeting underserved geographical areas, and implementing cutting-edge technology solutions. This episode delves into their journey, tactics for client acquisition, the role of technology in their operations, and their forward-thinking approach to law firm growth.

Transforming a Startup into a Market Dominator

AJ and Ryan Bruning share the origins of their firm, which was founded in 2016 following the departure of the St. Louis Rams. Motivated by personal passion and a strategic legal victory against the Rams, they reinvested their $24 million settlement entirely into marketing, setting the stage for explosive growth. AJ recounts, “We started the firm with our father, Tony, but he is now retired. So we, we run the show over here” (00:58).

Their approach combines rigorous data analysis with targeted marketing campaigns, allowing them to identify and capitalize on neglected markets in the Midwest. By shifting focus away from the saturated St. Louis market to smaller towns in Missouri and Illinois, they minimized competition and maximized lead generation.

Data-Driven Marketing and Lead Acquisition

A cornerstone of the Bruning brothers' success is their meticulous approach to marketing and lead acquisition. AJ explains, “We focused on building a Google AdWords campaign looking for lead gen services... keeping fuel on the fire until we started seeing the acquisition costs get up” (05:51). This strategy emphasized efficiency and ROI, ensuring that every marketing dollar was accounted for and optimized.

Ryan adds, “For us, with us being so data driven, even early on, every dollar we spent we had to know exactly where it was going” (08:55). This intense focus on data allowed them to continuously refine their marketing efforts, prioritize high-return channels, and maintain sustainable growth.

Leveraging Technology: Custom CRM and AI Integration

The Bruning brothers took a unique path by developing a custom Salesforce-based CRM system tailored to their firm’s specific needs. AJ details the process: “I was basically a trial attorney by day, and then I'd come home at nighttime and teach myself Salesforce till 3 o'clock in the morning” (10:48). This dedication resulted in a highly customizable and efficient system that streamlined their operations and enhanced their ability to make data-driven decisions.

Moreover, they emphasize the integration of AI into their workflow. AJ advises, “If I was starting out right now, honestly, I would spend all my time learning AI and how I could utilize that to my advantage” (13:23). By adopting AI tools like ChatGPT and Google's Gemini, they’ve significantly boosted productivity and operational efficiency, enabling their team to focus more on client service and strategic growth.

Practice Types and Diversification

Initially focusing on high-stakes fire cases inherited from their father, AJ and Ryan strategically diversified into auto injury cases, which offered a more consistent and scalable source of clients. Ryan explains, “The auto stuff, especially for AJ and I who are so data driven into process, it's the perfect kind of case because they all have the same factors generally” (20:44).

This diversification not only stabilized their case intake but also positioned them to handle a larger volume of cases without compromising on quality. Additionally, they’ve begun exploring areas like workers' compensation and mass torts to further broaden their practice and mitigate risks associated with market fluctuations.

The Rams Lawsuit: A Catalyst for Growth

A pivotal moment in the Bruning brothers' journey was their lawsuit against the Rams over personal seat licenses (PSLs). AJ recounts, “We litigated the case for three years... they paid $24 million, which was the exact amount of the nine years left on the PSLs, plus they paid our attorneys fees and costs” (29:34). This not only provided significant capital for reinvestment but also served as powerful PR, establishing their firm as a formidable player in the legal landscape.

Ryan adds, “We decided to pour all the money we made back into marketing and try to build the practice on it” (29:34). This strategic reinvestment fueled their aggressive marketing campaigns, laying the groundwork for their expansive growth across the Midwest.

Implementing the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS)

To maintain operational excellence amidst rapid growth, AJ and Ryan adopted the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS), inspired by Mike Morris’s book Fireproof. Ryan explains, “We self implemented... started running the meetings every week and really just got in the flow of it, knocking out issues, figuring out what the problems were” (25:20).

This framework helped them establish a robust organizational structure, ensuring that every aspect of their firm was aligned with their growth objectives. AJ emphasizes the importance of leadership roles, stating, “You need somebody who's the visionary, you need somebody who's the integrator” (25:20). This division of responsibilities allowed them to focus on strategic growth while maintaining smooth day-to-day operations.

Future Outlook and Strategic Advice

Looking ahead, AJ and Ryan offer valuable insights for personal injury attorneys aiming to thrive in a competitive landscape:

1. Data Cleanliness and Organization: AJ advises, “You need to make sure your data is super clean, super organized” (30:28). Clean data is essential for effective AI utilization and informed decision-making.

2. Workflow Integration with AI: Understanding and adapting workflows to incorporate AI can streamline processes and enhance productivity. AJ suggests, “Understand where your workflow lives and develop a plan to make sure that your workflow is going to be able to work with AI” (30:28).

3. Employee Engagement with Technology: Ryan highlights the importance of involving employees in technological advancements, “you got to give that productivity tool to them and allow them to use their creativity to be more productive” (18:16).

Additionally, Ryan discusses their innovative approach to performance measurement by developing a WAR (Wins Above Replacement) algorithm tailored for their attorneys. This metric helps in assessing productivity and ensuring that each team member contributes effectively to the firm’s success.

Conclusion

AJ and Ryan Bruning’s journey with the Bruning Law Firm exemplifies how strategic marketing, technological integration, and operational excellence can transform a small law practice into a regional leader. Their commitment to data-driven decisions, innovative use of AI, and unwavering focus on growth have positioned them as a benchmark for personal injury attorneys aspiring to dominate their markets. As Chris Dreyer aptly summarizes, “No matter how crowded your market seems, there's always room for a new player with the right approach. The brothers didn't try to outspin the Giants. They outsmarted them.”

For personal injury attorneys looking to emulate their success, the Bruning brothers offer a blueprint: embrace technology, stay nimble, focus on underserved markets, and continuously optimize your operations. By following their example, law firms can navigate the competitive landscape and achieve sustained growth.

Notable Quotes

• Chris Dreyer: “I think you guys run one of the best operationally sound practices. Sales is buttoned up. Marketing's buttoned up.” (00:07)

• Ryan Bruning: “Every dollar we spent we had to know exactly where it was going.” (08:55)

• AJ Bruning: “Make sure it's not siloed. You need to make sure that it's complete and organized.” (30:28)

• Ryan Bruning: “We're trying to get everybody down to one number. We're looking at a WAR algorithm for our attorneys.” (33:22)

Timestamp Guide

• 00:00 – Introduction to AJ and Ryan Bruning
• 00:58 – Founding and Growth of Bruning Law Firm
• 05:51 – Marketing Strategies and Lead Acquisition
• 10:48 – Developing a Custom CRM with Salesforce
• 20:44 – Diversifying Practice Types
• 29:34 – The Rams Lawsuit and Its Impact
• 25:20 – Implementing EOS for Operational Excellence
• 30:28 – Future Outlook and Strategic Advice
• 33:22 – Final Thoughts and Performance Metrics

---

Personal Injury Mastermind continues to be an invaluable resource for personal injury attorneys seeking actionable strategies to elevate their practices. By learning from the successes and insights of industry leaders like AJ and Ryan Bruning, listeners can adopt proven tactics to achieve their own milestones in the competitive legal landscape.

Transcript

[AJ Bruning]

How do we bring in as many leads as possible? And how can we expand our geographical area?

[Chris Dreyer]

I think you guys run one of the best operationally sound practices. Sales is buttoned up. Marketing's buttoned up.

[Ryan Bruning]

We settled that case and we're just going to pour all the money we made back into marketing and try to build the practice on it.

[Chris Dreyer]

Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. Let's get into it. They sued the Rams, won 24 million, and reinvested every penny into marketing. Now they're one of the fastest growing PI firms in the Midwest. AJ And Ryan Bruning transformed the Bruning law firm from a three person startup into a market dominator. They work harder and smarter. The Bruning brothers triggered explosive growth by ruthlessly analyzing marketing data, targeting neglected markets, and building custom tech. Their formula combines baseball style attorney metrics, custom built salesforce automation, and an AI strategy that's already transforming their operations. Let's go.

[Ryan Bruning]

Ryan bruning. You know, A.J. and I are obviously the partners and owners of the Bruning law firm, a personal injury firm here in St. Louis. And I've known Chris for, for quite some time and excited to be on his podcast.

[AJ Bruning]

Yeah, I'm AJ Bruning, the other half of Bruning Law Firm. We started the firm with our father, Tony, but he is now retired. So we, we run the show over here.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah, and you guys run an amazing practice in St. Louis. You know, one of the biggest, certainly one of the fastest growing too. And I like the experience you bring, both from your father, each of your own individual backgrounds, you know, trying cases, having those experiences. But, but, you know, what's the state of things? I, I'll, I'll continue with you, A.J. you know, tell us a little bit about the firm, the practice, Just, just as much as you want to convey to the audience.

[AJ Bruning]

We started the firm back in 2016. We have a father that is a personal injury attorney. So we kind of grew up watching him practice and, you know, getting to meet some of his clients and just the impact that he would have on their lives. The weight of the responsibility was something that we always thought was just really amazing and really looked up to him. And I think as we got older, we really both wanted to follow in his footsteps and become personal injury attorneys. We took different paths to get there. I started as a litigator in the city of St. Louis, which anybody around the area know there's plenty of work to do at the prosecuting attorney's office, unfortunately. And Ryan worked at a firm that did A high volume practice, which was the total opposite of what our father did. And we really took those experiences in and, and helped formulate the, the practice that we run now.

[Chris Dreyer]

Did you guys like join, you know, set in trials and get to see your father, you know, do the trials? I know he had tremendous experience with subrogation and burn cases. You know, tell me about that experience, like growing up.

[Ryan Bruning]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Went, went and watched him in trial and that's what, that's his specialty. I mean, he was a trial dog. Just he wanted to litigate cases. Settlement wasn't even an option or word that he used in his vocabulary. And just growing up and seeing how passionate he was about, you know, representing these people, but really also his work ethic, I mean, he just would outwork any defense attorney, strategize them, and that was what he thought his advantage was. And it was he would only handle 10, 15 cases at a time and just pour everything into it. And it was really admirable watching that growing up. And it's what inspired AJ and I both to get into it. When we first were in law school, got out of law school, we thought that that was the practice that we were going to inherit and build on. Just a small practice, litigation heavy, both trial attorneys. And I'd say that, you know, really my experience going to, I went to work with John Page over at Page Law, which is a high volume, younger practice. He was one of the first people, you know, really to do Internet marketing. And just my, my first years there kind of had an aha moment where my father, who's this great trial attorney, business was kind of drying up a little bit. The word of mouth wasn't as big as it was, you know, when he first started his career. And here I am one or two years out of law school, sitting at the, you know, kitchen table with a family sign up a million dollar wrongful death case, when in the back of my mind I'm thinking, this case should really be going to my father. And here they are signing up me. And the reason they are is because John was doing a great job with Internet marketing and putting himself out there. And I just had realized the landscape had changed and if we were going to be relevant, be competitive, we had to change with it. And I remember I called AJ right after that meeting and said, you know, we're going to need to change the direction of what we're going to do if we're going to, going to start a firm eventually. So that was a big, big changing moment for me. And I think kind of led us to the path that, that we ended up going on today.

[Chris Dreyer]

AJ I think out of the gate you saw advertising a little bit different. And tell me about the conversations you had with Ryan, how advertising and how you think about case acquisition. It's so competitive. You know, I looked literally today I was looking at Media Radar, used to be called Vivx. I was looking at the TV, TV buys in St. Louis. And it's like Morgan's got a war with, between De Pascuali and then, you know, Brown Krupin and then you got under and it's like there's this big tv, like TV money came in. You guys are thriving on the digital side, you know. But just tell me about like how, how you think about case acquisition.

[AJ Bruning]

Yeah, I think, you know, when you're looking at an established market, you have to think about things that they don't care as much about. When you're taking on people who have been doing it for a while, playing in the same sandbox as them when they have more money and more resources is a difficult way to do it. So I think for us, what we really focused on was how do we bring in as many leads as possible and how can we expand our geographical area so that we're just not competing with all of these dollars in St. Louis, but we're looking at the markets in the middle of Missouri and the markets the middle of, of Illinois where you have Chris, which we thought were underutilized markets. And we thought that was the case because lawyers typically are around where they practice law and obviously lawyers are going to go to places where there's more clients in the bigger city and there's bigger verdicts. But these places in the middle of the states, they weren't getting the same representation. There wasn't the same competition. So we really focused on building a Google AdWords campaign looking for lead gen services. I mean when you have little money, you do everything you possibly can to become more efficient and really focusing on the bottom of the funnel with the mindset of, hey, once we establish ourselves and keep get to X revenue, we'll really focus on branding and really start building that out. And every time we started to have that conversation, we found more leads at the bottom of the funnel that we could just capitalize on. And you know, we listen to your show a lot, we listen to other shows a lot, we know how important brand building is. But for us as we were able to just really get into the analytics and we're very data driven here and Measure the results. You know, we knew what the acquisition costs for all these leads were, we knew what our return was. So just keep fuel on the fire until we started seeing the acquisition costs get up and then at that point in time start focusing on branding. You know, we're starting to now put more dollars towards branding this year. But honestly it's not because the bottom of the funnel costs have gotten that much higher. We're still able to find little niches and places where we're able to spread those marketing dollars around and get a good return on our investment.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. And you guys, I know you have the in house, the, the Google Ads, I mean, tremendous. Even where I'm at, you know, I'm in Marion, Illinois right now and if I type in a, you know, a few combinations, I'm going to see see you there. Very precedent for those really intent phrases. You know Ryan, any your thoughts on this? Like you said, you had Paige, I know he was a big Google Ads advertiser. I think with Kaggle, they were kind of some of the first in that really jumped into Google Ads. But your thoughts on advertising, anything else to add there?

[Ryan Bruning]

Yeah, just to follow up, I think it's for us, with us being so data driven, even early on, every dollar we spent we had to know exactly where it was going. So we've just focused on any acquisition that we could track the exact dollar that we spent on that case. And so we just kept going in. If we knew that the case was going to cost X amount. If we've spent this much, we're going to get it. And we just kept kind of pouring into those avenues and we've just continued to do so. And really it's just been fun over the last three or four years to see the data that we've collected is really, now we can start to use it because we have so much of it that it starts to make sense. Obviously if it's small sample size, it doesn't mean anything. So we're really looking now at, okay, this lead source brings us this much in revenue. This is our profit per per source. And anything that has a higher profit, we're just pouring more money into it. As long as the case acquisition stays the same, we're going to keep using it.

[Chris Dreyer]

I remember I was sitting at a, at a table with you guys. This is a long time ago. This is when we're both, oh yeah, you know, getting started. And AJ you were talking about CRMs, you were talking about am I, am I Going to use Salesforce? Am I going to do. I think maybe the firm, the. Your father maybe used Needles. I can't remember the exact CRM he had. And at the time, like, I was super green. So on the digital side, I knew like pipedrive and you know, infusionsoft. And now, you know, you guys are using Salesforce. I got the question here. It has tremendous capabilities, right? The data that you can get, but it just, it seems like you need a full time Salesforce employee just to manage it. Like, like, talk to me about that selection. And just to use its capabilities versus like a lead docket or Clio grow that's like out of the box, you know, a good piece of software.

[AJ Bruning]

Yeah, I mean, we took a unique path. I don't know that it's the path that I would recommend others take. This was back in 2016 and at the time, really trialworks, needles, that was the biggest pieces of software out there for attorneys. And those pieces of software were not very customizable. You were really trying to fit your workflow into the way that system was structured. And the other issue was the analytics component was very weak. And one of the things we realized from an early state was we were going to have to really make sure that we were cataloging all this data and that we were able to really quickly and easily surface this data to make improvements through our system. I was basically a trial attorney by day, and then I'd come home at nighttime and teach myself salesforce till 3 o'clock in the morning. I did that for about six months. I built out our entire case management system and really just continuously improve that system where, you know, now we do have a full time Salesforce admin. We just hired a Salesforce developer. It takes a lot of time and effort to make sure that it's a system that works really well. But it's so customizable for us and we're so quick to make really, really good decisions. Our system runs really, really well and our people really enjoy it because if they need a certain task, if they want the UI to look different, if they want information presented to them in different ways via reports and dashboards, those things are happening in weeks. And we're able to really automate and run our entire workflow. Our data structure, our, you know, our data basically lake. It all lives within Salesforce.

[Chris Dreyer]

You got a different range of listeners on the podcast, right? You got the, the, the bootstrapped solos that are getting ready to start. That's looking at a CRM versus like, you know, Some of the more. The bigger advertising, you know, firms, you know, if. If you were bootstrapped, I mean, are you saying, hey, maybe not go the salesforce direction? Maybe that's a later. You know, I think it's different when you look at it in retrospect. And it's. You spent, you know, six, seven months and, you know, after trials learning it. Like, do you still think, hey, it's the best CRM? If I had to do it over again, I would continue to use it, you know, do the same thing?

[AJ Bruning]

Yeah, I think it's the best CRM for us. Technology right now is changing so fast, and the way you're able to utilize AI, especially with some of these new case management systems, I think have really bridged some of the gap. And if I was starting out right now, honestly, I would spend all my time learning AI and how I could utilize that to my advantage. And that would be the starting point for any sort of case management system that I would use is totally make it AI first. Make sure that every single part of my tech stack was scaling as these new models are getting better with AI. And I think that's the most. That would be the best way to do it now if I was just starting out, because honestly, AI is extremely cheap for us to use. You can get a $20 ChatGPT account and build some amazing things, or you could just get on Microsoft Teams and use Copilot and build out an entire operating system there if you wanted to. So that would probably be the way that I would start. Honestly.

[Chris Dreyer]

I mean, AI is. It's. It's absolutely changed how I do things too, to the point where it's like, you know, I know you guys, and we're going to talk about EOs. And, you know, I got a rock recently and it was just like, I thought it was going to be super complicated. And I did some prompts and chatgpt and I got a validation. I was on the right direction. It was like 90% done, in fact. And I got a funny story without getting super weird. I was riding on a golf cart with my kid yesterday and I got like, stung or I had this big mark on my back and I'm like, what the heck is it? I didn't feel the sting. And I load the picture, just the picture, and it's like, oh, you got stung. This is what you need to do. And it's just like, wow. It's just wild. Um, but kind of. I digress.

[AJ Bruning]

Well, did your.

[Ryan Bruning]

Did your.

[AJ Bruning]

Did your kid tell you to do it, it's funny, we know we used to always say Google this or Google that when my, when anything comes up in my household, my kids like ChatGPT that ask, figure out what's going on. I'm like.

[Chris Dreyer]

And they talk to it. I'm still doing, right? I'm still doing the texting.

[AJ Bruning]

They're looking at me like, I'm like, why are you taking so long to ask this for ChatGPT? Just talk to like, what are you doing, dad? So, yeah, it's so transformative and it really is. It's seeping into every application that's useful out there. The easiest thing I think to do is just pay attention to the changes that are happening to the applications that you're using. Like for instance, I know obviously you guys use canva. Canva just had a huge announcement. With tons of new AI applications, the easiest thing you could do is take those systems that you're already using and just make sure you understand the new AI advancements that they're making and just try to stay up to speed on what's going on and you could just kind of ride that wave without having to build custom GPTs or custom applications yourself. I think you can let these third party companies take the, take the heavy lift for you.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah, it's amazing. And Ryan, what about you? You know, are you, are you chatgpt? I, I heard a new one today and I was like, oh, I haven't heard of this one. You know, I, I did deep seek for a few days until I got, you know, weirded out by the security.

[Ryan Bruning]

Issues and, you know, so, yeah, I'm, I'm chatgpt a lot. I've, I've, you know, AJ introduced it to me six months ago and, and then it's just been a tailspin from there using it all the time. I mean, I'm planning our vacations with it and using it for a personal. For, for here. We're, we're actually really trying to get everybody on Gemini because we use Google Workspace and excited about Google's collaboration with Salesforce coming up. So I've been trying in the office to use Gemini, I mean, for emails. I don't know if you have Google, but there's just a button right on your email. And I don't, I don't send one email without at least running it by Gemini to polish it up for me and make sure it's, it sounds better than whatever I came up with. So, yeah, it's just a game changer in everything and we've been, you know, A.J. and I use it all the time and we've slowly been pushing it on our staff and just the responses we're getting, the replies from our staff saying this is, it's changed my life and yeah, it's making me so much more productive and effective. And obviously there's precautions we have to take in terms of, you know, our clients information and things like that. But as long as we're doing that, sky's the limit on really what we're going to use it for, to increase productivity for everybody in our org.

[Chris Dreyer]

So yeah, that's, it's.

[Ryan Bruning]

Yeah, we're excited.

[AJ Bruning]

I think a lot of people are sitting around in the C suites and going, how, what am I, what should I build with this? How do I use this? I think you just need to tell everybody in your, your company, your law firm like this is, this is how you get there. This is how you prompt. This is. You got to change the way you use it versus Google. Keep asking questions, keep giving it more context. If you do that, which we've kind of rolled out to everyone in our company, you'll be amazed at the things people are coming up with. I ran into a, I made this whole presentation to all of our support staff. I talked to this paralegal the other day. She had built a, a personalized GPT to upload court, you know, documents that would then calendar all the events for. I'm just like, where did. I didn't think of this use case. But she did because it's in her normal workflow. It's something that she saw could get easily taken away by automation. And they. People will use it in the most interesting ways. You just got to give that productivity tool to them and allow them to use their creativity to be more productive.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah, I had, I remember using ChatGPT a lot. I asked it a prompt like, based upon all of my previous prompts, where, where are my blind spots? Where, where am I weak? And it like the answer it came back gave back to me was like, it, it was pretty incredible. And I was just, yeah, it, it's. You also got to be careful too or you bias it a little bit. You might have to clean it up a little bit.

[Ryan Bruning]

But yeah, well, it was interesting. I was listening to your, your most recent podcast and, and you had the same complaint that I did. It's too friendly. Every, every single thing I put. Yeah, it says, yeah, that was a great idea. You know, love it. I'm like, to be a little bit more discerning, you could be. It's okay, you could tell me that that was a bad idea. Let's, let's move on to something else. So yeah, I need to, to change his personality a little bit, but that's great.

[Chris Dreyer]

That's funny. Ryan, I knew your, your guys's father background for the fire cases. Like, like talk to me. We talked a little bit about tam, about you know, Southern Illinois expanding the geo. What about the practice type. You know with auto ton of competition, you know, with collision detection and the different, you know, you got Waymos were in Arizona, now they're in Texas and it's like what's, you know, what's your thoughts on practice types?

[Ryan Bruning]

Yeah, I mean for us when we joined this practice, it really was about combining his specialty of handling these high stakes fire cases but then combining that with you know, the most common case which is auto. I mean it's just the other, the specialized cases are just so hard. We tried when we started to, to do pay per click and SEO on fire cases and they're just so one off. It was really hard. And the auto stuff, especially for AJ and I who are so data driven into process, it's the perfect kind of case because they all have the same factors generally and it's just if you're going to build something to build it around the auto practice and of course there's threats to it, the technology and the self driving cars. But we've been hearing that for a long time and I think that you know, it, it's, it's shocking how many accidents there are and how many cases that, that we get because we know there's the other law firms are getting a lot of cases too so they're out there. I wouldn't be afraid of that stuff right now. If it changes then, you know, maybe we're singing a different tune in a couple years but we're still feel confident about that. And of course there's ways to diversify with you know, where we do workers compensation and dabble in mass torts and things like that. But the auto industry in the case is still a bedrock to build a practice behind.

[Chris Dreyer]

That's constantly a question top of mind. It's like you know, nursing. But then those can be really complicated. And then there's you know, the birth injury cases and cerebral palsy and you know, especially actually where we're at. You've got Simmons, Hanley, Conroy and some of those firms doing the miso cases still. It's a constant. I like to ask that just to see you Know where, what people are thinking about, you know, talk to me, you know, you guys, EOS based practice. Talk to me about that. Talk to me about, you know, using eos. Give a little background to the, to the audience, what it is, how you guys use it, because, you know, being transparent and I genuinely mean this, I think you guys run one of the best operationally sound practices. It's like sales is tuned up, buttoned up, marketing's buttoned up. You've got the data component, you got the trial experience. It's across the board, a very strong operationally sound practice.

[Ryan Bruning]

Well, thanks, appreciate that. And I mean, we've really, AJ And I have worked hard on that and really, I think, you know, we've kind of separated ourselves from the actual legal work. We made that decision about three or four years ago and that's when we started eos. We both read Fireproof by Mike Morris and really was just eye opening to us. It was kind of circling around a lot of the ideas that we had already been doing, but just, you know, kind of fueled it and took off. And for anybody who doesn't know, you know, Mike Morris runs a great practice up in Michigan and has a book, Fireproof, about the entrepreneurial operating system. And it's, you know, based on the, the book Traction, which of course we also read. And just to keep things moving along and setting up the proper infrastructure for your organization, it was just huge for us. What we did was we self implemented, which I think was really important for us. We thought about how hiring his practice or someone else to come in immediately and take that over. But agent, I just did it ourselves, started running the meetings every week and really just got in the flow of it, knocking out issues, figuring out what the problems were. And I think as lawyers, it's really hard to step back. I mean, we're so in the weeds on these cases. And to think that, hey, I'm going to spend an hour of my day meeting and talking about kind of ancillary issues is not something anybody really wants to do. And forcing ourselves into that habit early was important. Then of course, we brought in coach, at your recommendation, James Ashcroft, who really just took us to the next level. And then after that, we brought our whole Oregon to it. Getting our other attorneys to buy into that was a challenge, of course, at first because, you know, we're adding more time away from their cases, but now that we've got everybody in it, it's, you know, things are flowing and just they're really moving in the right direction. There's nothing that slips through the cracks. And it just is. It's allowed us to have, as you call a really buttoned up organization. I think.

[AJ Bruning]

Yeah, yeah. I think that, you know, the most important part of that process is really, it's really ran by two people. I mean, as you know, Chris, you need somebody who's the visionary, you need somebody who's the integrator. You need those roles really with strong people who understand the business and who know how to lean into those things. And it just fit into our personalities so well. Just there's two of us. We're totally different in that regard. And because of that, I think it allowed us to focus really on growth and making sure that we were taking a look at the entire market, taking a look at all the different threats and opportunities that were coming our way and kind of digesting that at a 5,000 foot view. And it allowed Ryan to really make sure that the organization, the operations are running smoothly and efficiently. And I think because we've been able to kind of separate ourselves and really focus on those things, we've grown at the right pace and we haven't outgrown ourselves, but we haven't become stagnant. And we're consistently making sure that we're planning for the future while also making sure that everything that we're doing today is providing the best service for our clients.

[Chris Dreyer]

Fantastic. Fantastic. Yeah. And that's seen the growth and it's just continued, continued. It's pacing nicely. I feel like every time I see Chris Levinson over in California, he gives me shit about the Rams. And Chris, if you're listening, you know, this one's for you, buddy.

[AJ Bruning]

We're die hard Rams football fans here. And you know, we went to all the games and really was kind of grew up with the Rams. And when they decided to leave and you know, we kind of saw coming for a while, if anybody wasn't in St. Louis, probably wasn't paying as much of attention. But it was a big build up to the whole thing. And they left in January of 2016 and became official. Well, that was exactly when we started our firm. And the thought process was, you know, well, we're really so upset that they left. And although it's not a good idea to file a lawsuit out of spite, we went through and we tried to find everything we can. We found a good reason to file a lawsuit against them, which was, you know, when they came to St. Louis, they had everyone, you know, get PSLs, personal seat licenses. That lasted for 30 years. And they left St. Louis after 21 years. So we said, well, give all these people their, their money back for the nine years that they missed out on. And so we filed the suit against them. We had just started the firm, so there was only three attorneys. And I'm sure when the ramps got that petition and they looked up our firm, I don't even know if we had a website at that point in time. So, you know, we, we filed a suit, we brought in a few attorneys locally that we knew we needed some help to help us out with the case. And we showed up, a judge ordered mediation about two months in, and we showed up at Armstrong Tuesday here in St. Louis. And I guess as a show of force, the Rams showed up with Benton's law firm and like 30 people on the other side and there was us five. And so they sent us. It's like a table, like a lunch table. And they put all the attorneys in Ramsay Rams on one side, put us on the other. And at that point in time, they said the best thing they would offer us was for all of the St. Louis PSL owners to buy tickets in LA, which we said, obviously, yeah, we don't want that. So we litigated the case for three years. Ryan and I spent a lot of time out in LA and at the end of the day, they paid $24 million, which was the exact amount of the nine years left on the PSLs, plus they paid our attorneys fees and costs. So that was that. I would never suggest anybody file a lawsuit out of spite. But it worked out for us that time.

[Chris Dreyer]

It was great PR too, right? Especially at the launch department. Yeah. That's amazing.

[Ryan Bruning]

Yeah. I mean, that's why we did it at first, because we said this will put us on the map and we probably won't get anything out of it. And then when we did, it was also ever truthfully built our practice. We agent I made a decision when we sell that case and we're just going to pour all the money we made back into marketing and try to build the practice on it. So, yeah, it was thank you to the Rams for leaving in the end. So. That's right. I have my Sundays back too, instead of watching crappy football.

[Chris Dreyer]

Right.

[AJ Bruning]

That's good.

[Chris Dreyer]

That's amazing. I've always wanted to ask that I get the story behind it and that's. That's amazing, guys. This has been awesome. If you're going to look to the future and think about, you know, what's next and how the PI shaping with this AI environment, you Know what can you do to set yourself up for success, for the future? And I'll ask. I'll start with Adrian and then Ryan. I'll finish with you.

[AJ Bruning]

You need to make sure your data is super clean, super organized. You need to make sure that if you have the ability to add metadata descriptions to your data, you should do that and make sure it's not siloed, is the first thing that I would say. And the reason that's important is because you're going to start utilizing your AI to surface all kinds of information wherever you're housing all of your data. And you want to make sure that it's, it's. You got to think of it like an associate. You ask that associate to go in and look at your information and give you good feedback back. If the information is not complete, if it doesn't make any sense, if part of your data is in one place and part of your data is in another, you're not going to get good results. So even if you're slow to adopt AI right now, focus on making sure that your data is really clean and organized, because when you do start utilizing these tools, you don't have to go back and start making sure that's correct as well. So I think that's the first thing. The other thing I'd recommend is understand where does your workflow live, whether it's in Salesforce or whether it's in a different CRM. Understand that workflow and understand how AI is going to interact with that workflow. Traditional workflows have gone from the if, then this process, which means the more variables you add to those workflows, the more complicated it gets. And, and what we're about to introduce or what's getting introduced to all of our workflows is the ability to take that process and add reasoning to it, which means you don't have to add so many variables to every single process. You really could start processing things that weren't necessarily possible or too tedious before. So understand where your workflow lives and develop a plan to make sure that your workflow is going to be able to work with AI. And then I think the last thing is also look at where your, where your employees are interacting with each other right now and make sure that that's a natural space for them to interact with, you know, AI agents which are right around the corner, because the user interface and the way that they are able to interact with these AI agents to get things done is going to be. Know whether it's really going to Be an indication of whether or not it's going to be successful, rollout or not, because they have to be able to utilize these AI agents that you built specifically for tasks within their normal workflow, or they just won't use them. So those are really the three things that I think people should be thinking about and focusing on as we kind of go through this crazy advancement of these AI models.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah, and Ryan, take us home here. Any, any final thoughts here?

[Ryan Bruning]

Yeah, look, I think, you know, it's about the people really for us too. I mean, we've. Agent, I spent so much time building the infrastructure out and in the process that now it's about finding the right people and really training those people to fit it.

[Chris Dreyer]

Right.

[Ryan Bruning]

I mean, you know, EOs, right. Right person, right seat. And so we're focusing a lot on that, but also given our people that we have the tools to be successful. So, I mean, one of the things that we're excited about, that we're working on now is we're trying to get everybody down to one number. You know, EOS talks a lot about that, Traction talks about it, get everybody down to one number. It's really hard for attorneys and staff that are working on so many different variables. How do you get them to one number? So what we've done, actually agent I, big baseball fans love the WAR statistic that they have for, for their players. So we've developed our own WAR algorithm for our attorneys that, you know, basically sets. These are the PAR values. We're looking at, you know, fee per day, you know, average, average fee divided by average age or time on desk. And that's one, one factor of, of many. And at the end of the day, the algorithm pumps out one number. And you know, if you're a zero, that's your replacement level player. If you're below, you're below that and, and hopefully you're above it. And we just rolled it out recently and, and the returns already are, have been huge. They love it, actually. They, they want to know beyond just what my, you know, revenue number is, am I, am I being productive? Am I doing a good job? And so we're going to start working on that for, for every position we have and get everybody down to one number and excited about that. So I think getting the right people in hiring, focusing on recruitment, putting your brand out there in order to attract the right people and then once they're in your org, build them up, give them the tools they can to be successful.

[Chris Dreyer]

Big thanks to AJ and Ryan at the Bruuning. Law firm for sharing their story. No matter how crowded your market seems, there's always room for a new player with the right approach. The brothers didn't try to outspin the Giants. They outsmarted them. If you're just starting out or looking to grow, find your unique angle. Embrace technology, stay nimble, and his up at rankings when you're ready to get to the top. I'm Chris Dreyer. This is personal injury Mastermind. Catch you next time I'm out.