← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
326. Client First. ROI Forever. How Sam Aguiar Turns Service Into Referrals
00:23:58
From Surprise Billboards to Personal Touches — Why Spoiling Clients at the Start and Finish Drives Million-Dollar Loyalty
Loading summary
Transcript30 lines
- [00:00]
A
If we just spoil our clients and, and really go over the top for them, especially at the beginning of the case and the end of the case, they're inclined to be raving fans. The ROI on that is just incredible because when we talk to all these PI firms, I mean, you're talking about an average revenue per case. It's in five figures. And so if I've got to invest several hundred dollars into making sure the client experience is right, all it takes is for one out of 30 of those folks to be of a referral source and I've got ROI for life.
- [00:31]
B
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO Magic lives in the unexpected. Disney, the Savannah Bananas and Sam Maggie are injury lawyers. These three brands have nailed surprise and delight. This is marketing strategy that gives clients the unparalleled experiences and service they didn't know they needed. And today's guest, Sam Aguiar is a master. Inspirational billboards, tickets to games, high touch and low volume caseloads. All of this works together to create a lifetime client value that is through the roof. He is playing the game by his own rules and winning every time. Here's what he's doing right in the personal injury game. Let's go.
- [01:09]
A
And so as we sit here in 2025, we're bigger than I ever thought we'd be. That's kind of good, kind of bad. We've got 10 lawyers, 45 people total. We've got a standalone office down in Lexington, Kentucky that we've had for like four years. But we bought a building last year, so that's exciting. Here in Louisville, we've got about 35 people on site. We're doing about a hundred to 125 car accident cases a month. Eight figure revenue firm all about culture. Had some nice growth. It's just, it's fun times. You know, it's. It's a little nerve wracking in the PI world, but, you know, it's. I wouldn't trade my job for anybody else in the world.
- [01:46]
B
Yeah, that's amazing. I love Louisville. You know, it's. Right, it's close. I'm Midwest. Right. I'm in Marion, Illinois. And so it's awesome.
- [01:53]
A
You're. I didn't realize you were Marion.
- [01:55]
B
Yeah, Little Williamson county, so.
- [01:57]
A
So I went to Murray, I went to Murray State and we decided whenever, you know, you basically had to throw a dart and pick St. Louis, Memphis, Nashville or Louisville. A lot of times we pick St. Louis. And I dated a girl, lived in Mount Vernon, you know, he had Carbondale, and.
- [02:08]
B
Yep.
- [02:09]
A
And, you know, hopefully I'm speaking your language right now.
- [02:12]
B
Oh, yeah, you are. Yeah, I went to Carbon. I went to siu, and then one of my buddies is Brendan Mullins, so he's first assistant over on the basketball team.
- [02:21]
A
Yeah, man, this is. I didn't realize you were Saluki. That's cool.
- [02:25]
B
Yeah. Small world. Small world. You know, one of the things I really like about your firm, your practice, and just your approach to everything is it just seems so client focused. I mean, everything down from the positive messages on the billboards to your guarantee to how you treat, you know, the client with. With the team of three. And I want to talk about each of these individuals, but. But starting with the billboard advertising, you take a unique approach. It's, you know, using positive messages with your logo, and it's different than other PI Firms. So. So talk to me about that approach.
- [02:58]
A
So everything's about the client, and everything's about, you know, doing what's right for others. So I'm sitting here, and, Chris, it's. It's. It's late November. You know, I'm working on a Saturday, and I'm. I'm looking outside, and it's already starting to look a little like January. And I'm like, man, you know, the world's kind of crazy right now, and every year in January, you know, I. I don't know what motivated you going down to Florida, but every Florida. But every year in January, I just. I'm sitting here in Louisville, and I'm like, man, Louisville's cool, but not in January. Everybody's bummed the holidays are over. I won't. I won't allow our firm to get a trial date in January because juries are bummed. Everybody's bummed. And I'm just sitting here, and I'm like, you know, people get on Instagram and some other stuff now. It seems like they get kind of inspired when they see a nice message. So I'm like, I could do that for free, or I could go out and spend a stupid amount of money and put them on a bunch of billboards for all these folks that are commuting into work. And mental health's a real problem right now. And so I just got on Canva, and I was just writing up some things, like some little positive affirmations like, believe in yourself or, you know, stay strong or something, and chose the most simple font and our. You know, put our little logo on it, and I sent it to my billboard Rep. And I said, man, some people around this time of year, after the holidays might be a little bummed and this might give them a little positive affirmation. So what, why don't you go ahead and throw these up? And I'm probably not going to make any money off of them, but if nothing else, you know, maybe it'll be a few people each day that really needed that pick me up. So we launched it in January and as I sit here four months later, it's, it's kind of insane. I've gotten over a thousand messages sent to the firm, whether through my personal email, through Facebook, through cards in the mail, through phone calls, through Google, lsa, messages of just people saying thanks. And it's, it's, it's unbelievable. We're actually seeing ROI on this, which I, that was completely unexpected. We're getting direct attribution on cases where people just say billboards. And we're getting even more messages from people that say, you know, I don't know why you did this. Your marketing agency is a genius. They don't realize it's actually some non genius lawyer that came up with it on a Saturday. And they say, I don't need a lawyer right now, but you better believe if I ever do, it's, it's you guys. So it's, it's been pretty incredible. And the folks that are reaching out, there's been some corporate executives, there's been nurses, doctors, lawyers, people in recovery, you name it. And, and who would have thought that just driving down the road and seeing a little positive message would, would resonate so much to where you're actually going to call the, the injury lawyer that did it. And frankly, I get, I get, I get kind of blown away by it. It's pretty awesome.
- [05:39]
B
That is awesome. That's. And it's so different. It stands out too, because it is different. It is positive as opposed to it almost. So I think PI attorneys, obviously, I think there are a lot of amazing PI attorneys that really want to help the consumer. But like, I think the perception from the other side is not that, you know, not that. So when you see the injured question mark or the accent, question mark has this negative connotation where you're like flipping the script and you're making them feel good about driving into work and their day. And so I think it's awesome.
- [06:12]
A
It's pretty cool. And, and yeah, I mean, I don't like being status quo. I don't like being normal. I've got way too high of a risk Tolerance. And I, you know, if it's something that everybody else is doing, like some of the things that you talk about with, I want to be the best. You know, I love reading how competitive you are, because I don't meet many people that I feel like are as competitive as me, but sounds like you might be up there. But if somebody else is doing it, you know, I want to do better. Whether it's AI integration, the firm scares me to death because we got to be ahead of the curve on that. Or if it's advertising. We do a lot for the community. And, you know, it's like, earlier this year, Louisville basketball, we kind of had a renaissance this year, you know, they call it the revival because we went through two horrible years and talked to my U of L guy and he's like, you want to give away some tickets? And I said, sure. You know, I said, that sounds great. I said, what are we talking? He said, well, I can get them for you in blocks of a hundred. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, all right, whatever. So I get a thousand tickets to give away. And half of it was former clients. We put them in first come, first serve. The other half were organizations, and they ran out in like three hours. So I was like, give me a thousand more. And they ran out. And there was one organization that had a lot of kids that hadn't got in, in time. So before I knew it, I was sending 2,500 people to a Louisville basketball game against Virginia that we sponsored. Now, they gave me an incredible deal. Like, like, literally face value on those tickets is 50 bucks. I was able to send all these folks for five bucks a piece. Piece. But my wife just, she just looked at me and laughed because she's like, it's always got to be over the top, doesn't it? It's like. But again, yeah, yeah. Culture here is, is, is clients, community. Then obviously, you know, culture as well. And, and so that's, I bought my email signature. I, frankly, I stole it from a guy who sent me an email, wanted a job here. He said, it seems like clients and culture and community are big for you. And I was like, thanks, man. I don't know if I got to pay you for that, but it's going to, I'm adopting it.
- [08:02]
B
That's incredible. I, I, you know, the grassroots, the grassroots, the community building, it's just so powerful, you know, getting belly to belly, shaking people's hands, doing those, those personal local things, it has a lot of power, I think. I, you know, When I was doing some research, it was, you know, just a few years ago, and it could be longer that you had like, 65% of your cases from referrals. Was that, you know, what's changed is, is it when you say referrals, is that like peer referrals or was that like consumer referrals?
- [08:36]
A
No, no. That's a good question. So. So I was with a great ad agency for 12 years. CJ CJ advertising out of Nashville. You know, good community, you know, not with them any longer, but no knock on them. It's just, you know, it is what it is. But it was pretty cool. Cause we would go each year and, you know, we'd share numbers, and we'd like to see where we stacked up. And every year, we always led the agency in the percentage of cases that we got that were unpaid marketing. So it wasn't. So when you see referrals, it was not, you know, B2B or anything like that. It was literally just word of mouth. Didn't have to pay a dime for the case, which was awesome. But the flip side to that was, is that it was typically, you know, 65 to 70, you know, 35, 70, 30. Word of mouth. So I'd look at it and I'd be like, that's amazing. But it also means that my marketing's probably not doing what it needs to be doing, because ideally, I'd prefer to be 50, 50 there. So right now, as we sit here, I think we're 58, 42, still word of mouth to paid marketing. And in this omnichannel world, right now, I'm still trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. But some things that you brought up. If I were to, you know, hope that someone was listening and say what were some tangible takeaways that this guy's done, right? Because I've done a hell of a lot wrong. I'd say that what I realized, especially with cars getting safer, you know, the alternative business structures that are coming out there, people are still going to pay a premium for good service. You know, one of the things that we've realized is if we just spoil our clients and really go over the top for them, especially at the beginning of the case and the end of the case, because I'm big on primacy, recency, effect, and they're going to remember the first and the last interactions more than the middle. They're inclined to go and really still talk about you be raving fans and that there's still folks that are out There that are going to say, yeah, I'm getting hounded by all these trackers online and everybody else, but I still want to go with that law firm because I know that they, I've got that social proof factor. You know, Another thing that I've realized is that if you spend a little bit of extra money on the client experience, the ROI on that is just incredible because when we talk to all these PI firms, I mean, you're talking about an average revenue per case, it's in five figures. And so if I've got to invest several hundred dollars into making sure the client experience is right, like if I've got a cut fee at the end or if after the case is done, I realize that one of these clients has kids that are a big Louisville fan and I'm going to go get them shirts and tickets and stuff like that. Chris, all it takes is for one out of 30 of those folks to be of a referral source. And I've got ROI for life. So one of these things that, you know, I know that a lot of firms right now are big on convenience. You never have to come see us. You know, we're gonna literally, from day one, it's gonna be on the phone and then it's gonna be online and then we're gonna get the, the money direct deposit in your account. I'm all for that to a certain extent, except for the fact that you've completely missed the opportunity to at least have one in person interaction with that client. And so I see a lot of my competition out there right now really adopt that model and the convenience is there, but if you miss that opportunity to at least just see them in person and show them that you're real and show them that you really do care, I don't know if they're going to be inclined to as inclined to change your business in the future.
- [12:03]
B
I think I said I love this previously, but I love every statement you just said. It's incredible. I, you know, you look at all the different models of firms, like there's a lot of variations of it. And I think I've heard John Morgan refer to this as systemic marketing. I think that's the phrase that he puts on it because he meets the people and he gets a heavy amount of referrals and you're talking that percentage that you get is absolutely mind blowing and, and just how powerful it is. I mean, it's just incredible. But I think it's everything you're doing. I think it's the whole flywheel it's the positive message, it's the interaction, it's the, the care. It's, I imagine you know, where you're at 700 plus reviews asking for a review at the end. It's not like, you know, bribing them to leave a review. They've had this in end experience. It's like, absolutely, let me, let me leave a review.
- [12:55]
A
I really, you know, I'm here. I mean, I'm here every day. I love everything about what I do and I really love that last interaction with the client. So the folks here know, you know, if clients coming in, I'm here, let's get a picture, you know, let's do a video. Let me talk to them. Because the reality is too is that it's only taken me a few minutes. I can also issue spot things, you know, about the experience. If for some reason I'm with somebody and I'd sense any sort of apprehension, like there was just something that they are leaving confused about. We're going to make it right right there. But the last hour and a half I've, I've had three clients come in. Just coincidentally, they picked up their settlement checks. First thing I say is, how was it? My, you know, did my guys treat you okay? And they're just beaming. All three of the groups that came in. Yes, absolutely. Then I've, I've got some gift cards put aside too. So I'm like, hey, you know, so if it's a grandma, you know, I'm usually going to her and saying, hey, do your grandkids like to go to the movies or they like McDonald's. They love McDonald's. Well, cool. Here's my stash. Here you go. I'm not the one who asked them for the Google review. You know, the team that's handling the case has already said, hey, listen, you know, if you had a good experience, we'd love a review. It goes a long way. More than, you know, more than I really legit, more than I knew how important Google reviews are. They're so freaking important. And, and all three of them left and I think two of them, we've already got the notification that they left us Google review. It's the Google review parts, the added bonus. But just seeing them walk out, getting the hold of the door for them, I've got a celebrity factor which I haven't earned and I don't deserve. But the reality is, is if your name' billboards and you're on TV and stuff, they, they don't realize you're Just paying to be in front of them. They, they look at you as, you know, big deal, and, and it's cool. And I think that. I think that they see that it's genuine. They see that it's real. My team at least knows that they're not bothering me. When they come in the office and they say, hey, client photograph. Immediately they know I'm like, heck, yeah, let's go, let's roll. Let's do this. Because let's, you know, let's be real. You talk about John Morgan. He's a genius. You know, I mean, he really is. You know, I'm not a Morgan and Morgan basher. And I've even got a backstory with Morgan and Morgan where they bought my firm in 2013, and in 30 days I bought it back for a lot more than I'd sold it for because we were cultural misfits. Most people don't know that, but I still admire them. The way they do things is incredible. It works. We see the numbers from a brand sentiment analysis around here. I was just talking to one of my guys about it. I mean, they dominate everywhere they go. And John is a genius. I know I'm at least smart enough to know that when I wake up each day that I'm not going to try to, to beat Morgan and Morgan at their own game. The things that I'm always looking for, what. What do we have that are the intangibles that they, they. That's almost impossible for them to have. We have teams of three and small caseloads. So his tech is great. They're more efficient than we are, but. But we can get a little bit more personal with the clients and, but with us, it's, it's, it's the client. You know, it's awesome. It's. It's the client.
- [15:40]
B
You know, we, we hit the advertising and the, the kind of that component that, that case management structure. So, you know, there's this stigma around case management and, you know, work with firms that advertise, but you have the three people per case. The lawyer, the case manager, the legal assistant. You know, how does this method of case handling take away any stigma associated with being an advertising firm? You know, so tell me about that particular, you know, that pod, that team structure.
- [16:06]
A
Sure, yeah. I mean, it's, it's a, in the traditional sense, it's a POD model. Our touch points with the client are very frequent, at least early on. You know, there's going to be multiple contacts the first week with the client, a few weeks into the case, you know, if there were some sort of orthopedic concerns or something that was going to warrant a doctor to order some early imaging, we want to be right on that because we want to make sure, first and foremost that we've got the information coming in to where we can kind of build our own internal evaluation of the case. But we want to make sure that our clients getting access to medical treatment, that they need a lot of our cases. So our time on desk, I think, I hope it does. I think it'll blow you away. It's. It's six and a half months. So it's, it's 203 days is our average time on desk. And the reason why is because we've really, you know, learned how to figure out early when a case is worth the policy limits and go get it. Because you're not doing your client any service. If there's, if there's a minimum limits policy out there and you're letting their treatment rack up, you know, the amount of their lien rack up. Yeah. Average time on desk is 203 days. Median time on desk, I think is like 150 days. And this isn't because they're treating and getting released and we're taking a discount. It's because we're going out there and getting those policy limits as quickly as possible. And so that's a lot of the positive feedback that we get too. A recurring theme that we get through our reviews is, you know, way faster and way more than what I thought was going to happen. And that's the benefit to a big pod, you know, or to, or to three people. Smaller caseloads, you extract the full value quicker, more touch points with the client. The challenge becomes, you know, my labor costs are a lot higher than my competition. When you look at revenue to labor overhead, I can't have a marketing budget that says that, that competes or competes, but I can't have a marketing budget of Morgan and Morgan or Daryl Isaacs. You know, again, I'm betting on my people and spending more on them and having to spend a little less on marketing. It works for me, but. But what they do works for them too.
- [18:14]
B
So a lot of times people think of marketing is just like the perspective client, like the, you know, getting them in, but there's also marketing to the existing client and then the be afterwards. So I think, I think that pod, like, well, that's kind of helping on those other situations getting you the referrals and the word of mouth. So. So I still think it has a different flywheel effect. I. That's the fastest I've heard time on desk. So that the cash acceleration cycle, it's pretty cool. Yeah, I know Farren over in, in North Carolina had, when I talked to him, James, I remember I was, I was impressed by his. And to be honest, that's one of those questions that as a, a marketer I need to ask more about because I always ask like the average fees and. But I never ask about time on desk. And that's a very important metric.
- [19:01]
A
It is, It's. I used to get jealous and then I realized why it wasn't feasible here. So I go and I'd listen to, you know, all these brilliant masterminds, you know, Mike Morris and John, you know, they'd get up and talk and, you know, I would, I'd want to scream out, that's not possible. When they would say, listen, at the beginning of the year, we can tell you within a very small, you know, within 2% or now they say 0.5% or something what our revenue is going to be for the year. I'm like, no, you can't. And then I hear some other firms say it and I'd be like, no, you can't. But then I realized is that the life cycle on their cases is over a year. So the, the reality was, is that I'd still challenge them on that whole 0.4, 0.5% thing. But I could see now why they could have those, those, you know, forecasting. But it's tougher for us because of our, you know, we're going to cycle two for every one of theirs and, and that makes it a little challenging, but at the same time, it's a good problem to have. Yeah.
- [19:57]
B
I think the only other practice area had Smith, Klein Smith on a while back, Don Smith and Curtis, I think the nursing home practice. But those like, look, I'm not a lawyer, so I may be talking incorrectly here, but it just seems like nobody wants to take those to trial. Like you're going to put know, talk about someone's grandma to the jury. Like, I just. Yeah. So, you know, the other thing too is you've got the bigger share guarantee. So let's just briefly touch on that. I think you mentioned it earlier, but, but just what that is that, that's, that's another, you know, on that client service consumer first, just for audience, what is that?
- [20:32]
A
I'm glad you asked about that. It's two things. We're flat 35%. So there's firms that probably go 33 and third still. We're flat 35, but we don't bump it when it goes to litigation. So. So at least personally, my. You know, my thought process is, is that I don't ever want to give off the impression that we filed suit to pad our own wallet. You know, it's. It's. If we're filing suit, there is a strategic reason for it. Either it's a trucking case and we need to file early for, you know, doc to make sure that we get some good discovery because that's where the money is in the trucking cases, or it's because there's an early liability dispute, or it's because an. It's an insurance carrier that we know that the defense attorney that they typically assign is going to be a lot more reasonable to deal with. There's a ton of reasons why we could file early. I want the client to know that we filed to get them a better result, not because we want to go from 35 to 40% or anything like that. The bigger share guarantee was something that, again, I just woke up one morning and I'm like, we've always done this, but we've never actually marketed it. Our client's walk away will never be less than what we're getting. I can't go home in good conscience and say I just took 80 grand off of a case and my client took 50. Like, you know, it's just not the right thing to do. So that's. That's our bigger share guarantee. We've always done it, but last year, I decided to actually coin it, and I got a trademark on it, too.
- [21:48]
B
Yeah. Saw the little TM and yeah, that's awesome. And, you know, it fits. Like, make your share guarantee. The pod, the reviews, the positive messages, like, it just fits. It sounds like who you are, and now you want your firm to be represented. And I think that's awesome.
- [22:05]
A
Yeah, well, it makes it easy from a recruitment standpoint, I'll tell you, because I say this a lot, but I can train most people to do what we do. But you can't train people to be nice. You have to have a culture that's. That's service industry. I was. I waited tables for a long time. If. If you got this impeccable background, you got this great skill set, but it's pretty damn obvious that you are averse to people that our clients are going to. That you're going to argue with them, that you always have to be right, then there is a job out there for you at a law firm and you are going to excel at it and they're going to put you in a spot where you can, but it's not here, you know, like, it's just I'd much rather have a person here that is genuinely excited when their client comes in and, you know, wants to go over the top to make sure that the experience is incredible than someone that, and if that person, you know, might miss a comma or, or not use the right template, send out a letter of representation, I'll take that person over, the person that sends out these amazing letters, but is, is going to let all their calls go voicemail.
- [23:13]
B
I'm with you. I'm with you. You know, final question, where can our audience go to learn more and connect with you?
- [23:19]
A
Well, I'm pretty easy to find. It's, it's demand. Sam.com. i can be a little introverted at times, even though it doesn't come that come across that way. So, so, you know, and I can get a little behind on email, you know, direct lines. 502-813-8900. There's lawyers listening here, cell phones, 502-991-2491. I'm responsive. I love to help people out and you know, certainly I love to learn from others too.
- [23:41]
B
That was Sam Aguiar sharing how his client first approach drives referrals and success. Exceptional service at the beginning and end of a case creates lasting impressions and raving fans for life. For more strategies to grow your personal injury practice, subscribe to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreier. Catch.