326. Seven Words or Less: The Secret to Billboard Success in 2025 w/ Sarah Parisi

Summary

Personal Injury Mastermind Episode 326: Seven Words or Less – The Secret to Billboard Success in 2025
Host: Chris Dreyer, Rankings.io
Guest: Sarah Parisi, VP of Media

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Introduction to Billboard Advertising in 2025

In episode 326 of Personal Injury Mastermind, host Chris Dreyer welcomes back Sarah Parisi, the renowned "billboard queen," to delve into the intricacies of billboard advertising for personal injury (PI) attorneys in 2025. As part of the show's traditional media series, Sarah shares her extensive knowledge, answering nuanced questions and unveiling industry secrets that can elevate a law firm's marketing strategy.

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Effectiveness of Billboards for Personal Injury Attorneys

Do Billboards Work in 2025?

Sarah confidently affirms the continued relevance and effectiveness of billboards for PI attorneys. She emphasizes their high visibility, noting, “I think that billboards ultimately have one of the top three positions in the mediums that you should be covering” (00:48). Sarah observes that billboards remain a powerful tool for brand recognition, especially in high-traffic areas where potential clients frequently pass by.

Chris echoes this sentiment, illustrating with a local example, “Every time there's an election, it's like somebody's throwing up a little sign in your yard” (01:14), highlighting the ubiquitous presence and memorability of billboards.

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Common Mistakes in Billboard Advertising

Overloading with Words

Sarah identifies the number one mistake law firms make: overcrowding billboards with excessive text. She advises, “From a monetary and return on investment stance, when you put too many words on that billboard, it doesn't matter where your placement is” (02:02). Adhering to the guideline of “seven words or less” ensures that the message remains clear and memorable. Sarah underscores, “The shorter, the simpler and the more memorable, those are the elements that you need to really hammer home” (02:34).

Chris concurs, sharing his frustration with overly verbose billboards: “I've driven by it a thousand times and I yet to... I still don't know what it's about” (02:55).

Strategic Placement

Beyond message simplicity, Sarah highlights the critical importance of billboard placement. “Geographical location is the second” most crucial factor, ensuring that ads are situated in areas that align with the target demographic’s behavior and movement (03:13).

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Creative Strategy: Branding vs. Direct Response

Balancing Brand Awareness and Call to Action

Sarah discusses the delicate balance between branding and direct response in billboard advertising. She advises that while a call to action is essential, the primary focus should remain on branding: “The call to action is really going to be from a branding stance” (03:54). The goal is to create a memorable impression that stays with the viewer, facilitating future recall when needed.

Sarah is skeptical about including vanity numbers on billboards unless they are exceptionally memorable. Instead, she advocates for a strong branding message that reinforces the attorney’s presence in the community.

Emotional Connection and Community Engagement

Chris brings up the emotional aspect of branding, referencing Sam Aguirre’s positive messaging strategy: “He sends good vibes... he's sending positive type of affirmation type statements” (05:25). Sarah praises this approach, noting its effectiveness in humanizing the attorney and fostering community goodwill, which can translate into increased client trust and engagement.

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Colors and Readability: Design Essentials

Importance of Professional Design

Sarah stresses that billboard design should be handled by creative experts to ensure readability and aesthetic appeal. She recounts a personal anecdote about poorly chosen colors for a quilt, drawing a parallel to billboard design failures: “If you were not able to read it, or if it does, maybe you can read it. Maybe it just looks bad. It does not look well” (19:18).

Sarah emphasizes the necessity of professional color theory and design expertise to create visually compelling and easily readable billboards, which are crucial for effective communication.

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Billboard Types: Traditional vs. Digital

Preference for Traditional Billboards

Both Sarah and Chris express a preference for traditional static billboards over digital ones. Sarah critiques digital billboards for their fleeting impressions and lower impact: “I do not like digital boards... they're not fancier” (12:18). She argues that the rapid rotation of messages on digital boards reduces the likelihood of viewers retaining the information, thereby diminishing the advertisement's effectiveness.

Unique Opportunities with Traditional Billboards

Sarah points out that traditional billboards allow for more controlled and consistent messaging, which is essential for brand recall. She remains firm in her stance against digital billboards, citing their inability to deliver lasting impressions compared to their static counterparts.

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Earned Media: Leveraging Publicity

Generating Buzz through Billboards

Sarah highlights the potential of billboards to gain earned media coverage. She cites examples like Gordon McKernan and Jacob and Ronnie, whose billboard strategies have sparked public conversation and media attention: “There’s no such thing as bad press” (14:30). These strategies not only increase visibility but also establish the attorney as a prominent and talked-about figure in the community.

Chris adds that creative billboard campaigns can lead to viral moments and organic publicity, further enhancing the firm’s market presence.

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Placement Strategies: Right-Hand Reads and Lighting

Right-Hand Reads

Sarah introduces the concept of “right-hand reads,” emphasizing the importance of placing billboards on the driver’s side for optimal visibility: “Right hand read means it's on your side where you're driving to” (20:35). This strategic placement ensures maximum exposure and effectiveness.

Enhanced Visibility with Lighting

Chris shares his observations of neon-lit billboards in San Antonio, noting their superior visibility during nighttime: “Many of the billboards on the interstate were wrapped in neon and they were lit up to where I could read them at night” (24:06). Sarah acknowledges this trend, recognizing the added value of illuminated billboards in high-traffic, low-visibility areas.

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Negotiation Tactics and Cost Management

Avoiding Remnant Boards

Sarah advises against using remnant boards—available at discounted rates but often poorly placed and less visible. She explains, “If this is your first dip into the market. No, you. These need to be extremely scrutinized” (30:58). Instead, she recommends focusing on premium placements to ensure higher impressions and better ROI.

Leveraging Bulk Purchasing and Negotiation

For firms looking to scale, Sarah suggests negotiating bulk purchases to secure better rates and favorable contract terms. She advises pushing for reductions in production costs and seeking additional creative changes within the contract to maximize value: “Push and push until you get something for free and you will” (51:14).

Cost Per Thousand Impressions (CPM)

Sarah outlines typical CPM rates for billboards, noting they range from $800 to $4,000 per month depending on the size and location. She emphasizes the importance of verifying drive-by traffic numbers from reliable sources like the Department of Transportation, rather than relying on population density metrics: “They try to distract you... we’re looking for drive by and you need to have” (47:00).

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Innovative Placement Ideas

Alternative Advertising Venues

Chris ventures beyond traditional billboards, exploring opportunities like bus stop posters and airport advertisements. Although Sarah cautions about targeting the right demographics, she acknowledges that strategic placements in high-traffic areas can yield positive results.

For example, airport placements can target travelers who might require legal assistance in unfamiliar areas, especially with interactive displays and live advertisements enhancing engagement.

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Final Takeaways and Best Practices

Key Strategies for Successful Billboard Campaigns

1. Simplicity and Memorability: Stick to seven words or less to ensure the message is clear and memorable (02:34).
2. Professional Design: Invest in expert design to enhance readability and visual appeal (19:18).
3. Strategic Placement: Utilize right-hand reads and ensure optimal locations with high traffic and proper lighting (20:35, 24:06).
4. Avoid Digital and Remnant Boards: Prioritize traditional static billboards for better impact and avoid discounted remnant boards that offer low visibility (12:18, 30:58).
5. Negotiation Tactics: Leverage bulk purchasing, negotiate production costs, and maintain control over premium placements (51:14).
6. Earned Media: Create billboard campaigns that generate public interest and media coverage, enhancing brand visibility organically (14:30).

Sarah and Chris conclude by reiterating the power of well-executed billboard campaigns in transforming PI law firms into market leaders. They emphasize the importance of strategic planning, professional design, and effective negotiation to maximize the return on investment.

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Conclusion and Future Episodes

As the episode wraps up, Chris thanks Sarah for her invaluable insights and hints at future discussions on radio advertising. Listeners are encouraged to implement the shared strategies to dominate their local markets effectively.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sarah: “The shorter, the simpler and the more memorable, those are the elements that you need to really hammer home.” (02:34)
• Chris: “I've driven by it a thousand times and I yet to... I still don't know what it's about.” (02:55)
• Sarah: “I do not like digital boards... they're not fancier.” (12:18)
• Sarah: “There’s no such thing as bad press.” (14:30)
• Sarah: “Right hand read means it's on your side where you're driving to.” (20:35)
• Sarah: “Push and push until you get something for free and you will.” (51:14)

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For more insights and actionable strategies, subscribe to Personal Injury Mastermind and stay ahead in the competitive PI law firm landscape.

Transcript

[A]

You should know already. Here's what I'm willing to do. Here's where I'd be happy. Here's my hard stop.

[B]

Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. Let's get into it. She's back. Our billboard queen, Sarah Parisi returns. She's answering questions you didn't even know to ask and spilling industry secrets that'll make your competitors wonder how you got so smart. This is raw, unfiltered billboard wisdom from the VP of media who's seen it all. This conversation is part of our traditional media series. We give you a decade of wisdom distilled in an hour or less if you missed our TV episode. The link's in the show. Notes, Notes. But today, we're talking about billboards.

[A]

Billboards. That was good.

[B]

So let's start with just the softball question. Do billboards actually work for personal injury attorneys in 2025?

[A]

Oh, wow. What a softball question. Because, yeah, they do. I am. You know, again, I'm in the industry, so I'm cautiously aware or consciously aware of all the billboards that I see, and I take note of them as I'm driving through the city. I. I think that billboards ultimately have one of the top three positions in the mediums that you should be covering. I think billboards. Yes. The answer is yes. Thank you for that softball question.

[B]

I agree. And you know what's funny? Every single time there's an election, it's like somebody's throwing up a little sign in your. Out in your yard. Like, where are you at, PI Attorneys? Let's throw them up in the yards. Let's get permission from these homeowners, and let's just put them out in the yard just like the plumbers do. Let's do it.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely gives that. It gives you an opportunity to announce your slogan to everyone. I mean, that just hammers that home, that recognition.

[B]

Guys, we're going to talk about creative, we're going to talk about placement, we're going to talk about negotiation tactics to get, you know, your cost effective and all the things, you know. Before we get into specifics, let's just talk about what you think the number one mistake is that most law firms make with billboard advertising.

[A]

Oh, gosh. Now this is hard because I've got two really tight contenders. Okay? But I'll do my first because I think that it's important. From a monetary and return on investment stance, when you put too many words on that billboard, it doesn't matter where your placement is. By default, you've taken away a very key Element of the billboard rules. The rules used to stay in line with that are, no, you need to keep it short, simple, memorable.

[B]

So you would put the stamp on seven words or less.

[A]

Oh, yes, yes. Seven words or less. It was coined for a reason. So that statement right there says everything that you really need to know about what is the main creative aspect. If you take nothing else away, know that the shorter, the simpler and the more memorable, those are the elements that you need to really hammer home.

[B]

Love it. Okay, so I agree. I have some other thoughts, but I agree. I think that. I think you hit the nail on the head. It makes me think of driving through my local city here, and there's like a paragraph and I've driven by it a thousand times and I yet to. I still don't know what it's about. So.

[A]

No, that's crazy. No, because in your neighborhood. So that's my second one. Is not understanding or not giving enough credence to the placement. Geographical location is the second. If you're going to pay for something, you need to make sure that it's in the areas in which you want those impressions to be received.

[B]

Let's get down to the creative, the copy, all the things. Yeah. So first, let's talk about. At least from my experience on creative, it's, you know, should it be branding? Should it be direct response? Is it a combination of both? Like, where do you go on. On just the copywriting and the strategy there.

[A]

That's what ultimately makes billboards difficult. And I think that there's a dance and you just have to be willing, a willing participant in that to find that right groove in it. Because you do want to call to action. But remember, they're driving. So the call to action is really going to be from a branding stance. The last thing that, you know, they were in a car and you know, I. If they are in an accident, you know, that branding mechanism that they saw on the billboard is going to stick with them. And then hopefully that recall comes to mind. I don't give a lot of credence to having the 800 numbers on there. Unless you have a vanity number, then I can see a reason, because your vanity number is really almost as good as your slogan. It's something that's memorable. But for me, it would definitely be a little heavier on the branding side because it's just that key reminder. It's just that key pop up. It's like, don't forget I'm here. Another message, another message the viewer takes.

[B]

In, you know, and that branding is supposed to have an emotional component to get the, you know, to improve your likability. You're part of the community. Makes me think. I spoke with Sam Aguirre yesterday as a Louisville attorney where he puts out these positive messages, like, have a good day, which is awesome. And he's got, he said he got thousands of messages just from these positive type of affirmation type statements.

[A]

He did something different. I love it. I've heard about it. I think it's brilliant. I think, you know, you're reaching into somebody, not just letting them know you're an attorney, but that you send good vibes. And in an age where people are just, you know, reaching out via social media and, you know, sending those kinds of messages and, you know, I actually follow a few TikTok accounts that just give, like, positive energy this morning, you know, yada, yada. So I think it's a brilliant move. It definitely paints him and his services in a more positive light just because of the messaging that he's choosing to use. So no kudos to him. I think it's a brilliant campaign.

[B]

You know, so this. I'm going to sound like a psychopath here a little bit, but I am. Like, I love listening to the, the audio books that like, are just in your face, like, pump you up, execution execut. You know, I've talked about that Cardone Carver, you know, Tim Carver. I'm talking just anyone that's like, go out and get it. So you know what I love on the way into work? PI Attorneys. I would like the kick your butt, pump up billboards. And I'm like, yeah, you know, like when I'm running out of the tunnel for a football game and you're like slapping that sign. That's what I want to drive into work every day. And that would, I would be like.

[A]

Somebody needs to do that.

[B]

Someone.

[A]

That's a good one.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

That's really good.

[B]

I just made somebody a lot of money.

[A]

You did, you did. Very Alex Hormozy of you. Just throwing that out there.

[B]

You're welcome, guys. So I wanted to hit on the number thing. Okay. For me. Okay. The repeaters, I think it's so like we got the call the fours four, four, four in St. Louis and we got call the fours in San Antonio. And I understand the, the repeater and I guess the old school boom boomers or maybe the millennials that had the phone that actually did the letters. Do you think about a 1-800-Frank or whatever your name is? Do people even care about that.

[A]

I think it's dwindling. I think it's dwindling. I can't even recall. I'm so used to just going into my contact list, even places that I go to all the time. You know, like, if I'm picking up prescriptions, I, you know, I don't know the number of my pharmacy. I know that my mother and father did, though, like when. When we were sick or they needed to call the doctor's office. I still. I don't know my children's doctor's office phone number. I still have to Google that first. So I think vanity numbers are important, but I don't think they're necessarily the key piece, because when you're reaching these newer. This new generation coming up, so, you know, everybody is involved with social media. Everybody Googles things, and before they take the plunge. And I was actually just having a conversation yesterday with a client and saying, you know, they may see your ad on tv, but they're going to Google it. And so we should be paying attention to, you know, your volume, your traffic volume after that ad aired. So I think ultimately there's a shift in, again, this whole viewership and consumption of media change and the way the pathway to reach out, like our path to. Actually, I'm gonna say path to purchase, but it's really, you know, that call to action, path to action. It's no longer just ultimately picking up the phone that that ad made that decision for you. It is. They're gonna research you, they're gonna look into it, and then they might just dial you straight from your gmb. That that's ultimately what I do. Personally. I'm not saying that I'm everyone, but I know a significant portion of people are doing it.

[B]

That's what I do.

[A]

We need to pay attention to it.

[B]

That's what I do.

[A]

Yeah. Proof.

[B]

I think the game has changed. I think the consumer behavior changed. I agree with you 100%, I guess. Next question here. How often do you rotate? We talked about how often you change production. There's this exhausting component. I think you can even test for that. How often do you rotate the creative from a billboard perspective?

[A]

So that's usually baked in or part of the actual negotiation process. When you get the contracts, the billboard companies back, you can choose to change out your wraps or, you know, but it is a production cost, so keep that in mind. And it's depending upon who you're going with to purchase those billboards. So you may have in mind about three or four different creative wraps Depending upon, you know, just your messaging, your 800 number, et cetera. I would leave one wrap up, you know, a calendar year or broadcast year, just one full, you know, 12 months. There is argument if there is enough traffic going by for you to change that out every six months. You know, billboard contracts are a little bit different compared to other mediums because you know, they're going to base it out on a six week or six month contract. And so you have that opportunity to really do some creative negotiations at that point, you know, getting them to throw in, you know, two additional wraps, you know, for paying this price on the billboard. There's some, there's some negotiation tactics that you can utilize to get more frequent changes on the creative. But exhaustion wise, you have to know from the Department of Transportation. So don't just take it from the billboard company's impression levels. You know, you need to make sure that they're accessing actual data from your own markets. Department of Transportation. So you can get that drive by count. And that's how you're really going to know. You know, if I'm looking, I'm in Nashville. So I'm going downtown Nashville and I'm in, you know, stamped right on the intersection where you can branch towards 40 and 65. That gets a humongous amount of traffic every day. And so those, I would say probably six months if you wanted to do faster. But you don't need to rotate every month or anything like that.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

You want them to? Yeah.

[B]

You set me up here. Okay, here we go.

[A]

That's what I do.

[B]

I'm putting my hat on. I'm a billboard salesman. You ready? But Sarah, we've got these digital boards. There's only 18 people on the board, but you can rotate your message anytime you want.

[A]

No. Do you see the life just like bleed out of my eyes? No, I don't want your digital board. And I get. Really. Okay, first of all, on the chance that you're somebody who is in rush hour traffic. Sure. And you're just sitting there, I don't think you're staring at the billboards. You know, whether you like it or not, some people are either frustrated looking at the cars in front of them on their phone, playing with radio station.

[B]

I'm on my phone. Maybe I shouldn't say that. But like, if I'm stopped, I'm on my phone.

[A]

I don't think you're. You're not the only one. Everybody is. They're not watching this rotation of billboards and digital boards. I do not like, because you're getting a fraction of the impressions of what they're actually reporting back to you. I can count so many times I've driven by. There's actually two on my route in and out of downtown. And every time I'm like, I'm going to catch the number this time I'm going to catch. And I don't even think it's an attorney. I think it's like, for window shades or blind. I have yet to see the 800 number listed on there because it just flashes right before me and I miss it every time. So that's what you're up against. I don't like digital boards. They think that they're fancier and that people are just like, monetize more.

[B]

Instead of one static board, they get eight people paying the same rates and they try to use the value prop. But it's bullshit.

[A]

It's complete bullshit. Absolutely. It's not fancier. It's not cooler. It doesn't do anything except take away impressions from you.

[B]

Let's talk about the earned media component. I think this is really interesting. Billboards have the ability to draw the news in. So we've seen this. I've seen this. Personally, I'll use Top Dog as an example. He's a big Philly fan, so he bought a board next to the Philadelphia stadium that said, hey, we had to build a board here, but Houston stole it during the whole Houston thing. So he was picked up in the news. You've got Jacob and Ronnie that kind of originated the flip, the billboards upside down. So a bunch of people were contacting his office and like, hey, did you know they put your billboard upside down?

[A]

Like, oh, my God.

[B]

And then you have these design your own billboard contests. I think Frank Azar has done a really good job there, being purple Cowish, you know, he lets the community create. And that's like an additional strategy of itself there right through social media. What's your thoughts about the earned media component from a billboard strategy?

[A]

I think that it gets you talking about people talking about you. You know, it's like they say, there's no such thing as bad press. I think that you're staying in that spotlight. One that particularly comes to mind that I know of is Gordon McKernan. And somebody created a Facebook group specifically dedicated to Gordon McCarnon's billboards and the sheer quantity of them in the state of Louisiana. And I loved it. I think it's great just knowing that somebody that the community is so involved and they know who he is he has made his mark in his presence, and now it's kind of like. I don't want to say parody, but it kind of is a little bit like a parody, like an SNL skin. Like when you read down through the comment sections on there, and so you're relating to them, you're relating to your actual audience, and they see you as more than just an attorney. You're part of the community, and that's just within your own area. And then when you take it to somebody else who's getting that kind of national attention, again, there's no such thing as bad press. So I think it's great.

[B]

We gotta mention Alexander Shannara too, right?

[A]

Oh, I know. Okay. He was on the tip of my tongue, and I'm like, dude, I love it because I see his boards everywhere. Again, being in Nashville. And he does created this ultimate dream.

[B]

Mungie and Associates is another one. Like, you can't get away from their billboards. Their billboards are very consistent. I would say there's not a lot of deviation on the creative side, but I don't really know, Scott, But I remember I had a. For whatever reason, me and my wife decided to drive to Miami because we're going to stay there for all of February, which. Yeah, horrible, horrible decision. Like, just fly. Just fly.

[A]

Just fly. Oh, you drove. Okay, I drove.

[B]

Horrible decision. But I. Mungein Associates was in my brain because all the way from Southern Illinois all the way to Miami, I saw him pretty consistently. Scott, by the way, if you're listening, come on the pod. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, dude.

[B]

Yes. I'd love to talk to him about that. That'd be awesome. The. You know, the other thing, too, even to the point, Shannara, there will be. I remember when Meta had that, like, the Metaverse, people are making fun of them, like putting Shannara billboards on the Metaverse. And then when people talk about colonizing Mars, I think there's like, Mars with, like, Shannara billboards.

[A]

I saw that. I did see that as a meme. That's funny.

[B]

I think another person that does a really excellent job, I think we got a mention just from a creative perspective, is Sweet James.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, I think the Sweet James, the color really stands out, and it's crystal clear to read. I remember under law here in St. Louis, they had, like, this yellow, and it was, like, washed out, hard to read. And then they changed it to, like this dark blue, red, kind of like Mike Morse's colors. And it was, for me, driving to St. Louis it was significantly better from a readability standing out. So what do you think about the colors? You know, that kind of stuff.

[A]

This is not something that you should be throwing together with a team in house just because it looks pretty on your desktop computer. I play around in canva. I love a good Adobe Photoshop, et cetera. No, no, no. This is why you need a creative expert and you need somebody skilled in the level of production for billboards, because you're right. It's the coloring, the matching of the colors, the palette, and also the readability to pop out. There's elements to billboards where you can get things, you know, you can go above the actual cut and you can get something to pop out, if you will, and use more of the space given to you. But ultimately, you want to make sure that this design is also approved by a person who understands creative specs color theory. And knowing that they're using the seven words or less obviously they're skilled in this craft. And it can make or break the campaign. Because you're right. If you were not able to read it, or if it does, maybe you can read it. Maybe it just looks bad. An example. My mother asked me once what my favorite colors were when I was younger. She wanted to make me a quilt. And I said that my favorite colors were red, purple, and yellow. I. Why? I don't know. She was just like, really? That's what you. I don't know if this is going to look good. And I was like, fine, then do red, pink, and orange. And she was like, okay, that's even worse.

[B]

So again, she's subliminally trying to make you a Vikings. Minnesota Vikings fan with the purple, right?

[A]

Subliminally, yes, absolutely. But she was just like, oh, gosh, Sarah, that's not. I wanted. I was hoping you were gonna say something, you know, like pink and blue and purple. Something that is more along in that color wheel science line. Just because. And when she made it, I want you to know that blanket is not good. It does not look well. It is not the colors I should have chosen. So again, it may look great in your head, you may see it in your head, and somebody say, actually, what if it needs a drop shadow, something that I wouldn't even have thought of, or a big bolded outline on the lettering, you know, blues, like you said, the sweet James. There is something quite magnetic about that blue that he used. You almost want to kind of look into the Panettone color of it.

[B]

It immediately made my mom. Made me think of my mom Saying bless her heart.

[A]

Yes. We were still blessing my heart. My mom was like, oh, I mean, I guess I'll do it. But this is not so.

[B]

That's funny. That's funny. Okay, so we hit the creative. Let's talk about placement now, I guess before we get into. So the one thing that I always hear is right hand reads. Talk to me about placement.

[A]

I love that you've already heard about right hand reads because that makes my heart very, very happy. It's something that it is inherently, if you're just going into billboards, not many people would instinctively think of that. So right hand read means it's on. If you're driving down, it's on your side where you're driving to. You can see it from your right hand read. Left hand reads are.

[B]

Cross the highway, cross the. On the other side of the interstate.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And it just that now sometimes you can potentially provide me with a left hand read that I find within good placement. You know, so if I'm going down the through it, I'm ticking off my checklist items and the number one thing to me again is the creative making sure that the messaging is clear and readable. Second is the geography placement of it, making sure that the board is within a location that fits my demographic. Your media buying team should, you know, there are ways we can better target the placements. Some of those ways are you can give out a list of your clientele's addresses. We don't need names or sensitive particulars, but we can put a heat map and put a pin map together so we can see where all of your clients, if there's a condensed area right in here, so, oh, you're getting a lot of action from this area in town. Narrowing down really your demographic area to really target and get the most, get eyeballs within the most areas where you've got that return on investment already and people are seeing your ads and responding to them. So utilize. Your media team is going to be looking into this. They're going to be covering up that layer. So once we have the PIM map, we can also add a couple other things down to it from a demographic census data information down to education levels. You can do income levels, you can do the average home cost. There are lots of different things that you should be asking of your media team to utilize their buying software for. Another element that you can do in is throw in other retail establishments to see, okay, what are the shops in this area right here? What are the locations? You know, if you've got a really good software. Then you can even like drop yourself like you would in Google Maps and you're able to kind of scan the area and see, okay, what billboard, what maybe this company hadn't told you, but right behind you is another billboard. And wouldn't it be nice to know if it was a competitor who had that billboard less than, you know, 50 yards away? So these are elements in which, again, it's really crucial to have a good media buying team who's working on this. Billboards are easy to take in house because so many people assume it's just, oh, it's easy, we can just cut this deal quickly. It's not, it's simple. It's a board. They're going to throw it up, they're going to give me the geolocation dots and I'm going to know where it is. There's so much down in there that you're not paying attention to. And it's also easier to fall into the remnant board trap. Your media team is going to be the one to really get into the weeds and they're going to use that software to overlay a lot of different demographic elements.

[B]

Population density.

[A]

Yes. You want the placement. You know, it's not viable to say, like, okay, there's nothing. There's no traffic in this area, you know, or down into the lighting. What if there is traffic in the area but there aren't as many interstate lights? And so you want to make sure that you're bored had, you know, in the fine print, it has lighting available. There are pieces to the actual securing that definitely need to be addressed before purchase.

[B]

Okay, so I have, I have two, two things. And first I just want to go down the lighting component. So you hit me the curveball. When I recently I was in San Antonio, I went to visit trucking attorney Michael Cowan. I was driving, I had a super early flight back and it was dark outside. And what I found that was interesting was not all, but many of the billboards on the interstate were wrapped in a neon and they were lit up to where I could read them at night. And I thought, wow, that's different. I don't see that in St. Louis. Maybe that's, you know, maybe the city doesn't allow it in certain cities, but it definitely makes them stand out.

[A]

I would venture to say that this is newer, so I haven't even been, been given that opportunity. So it's probably got some type of overlay into it that makes the letterings pop for, for evening hours. So where a firm's Coloring might be navy blue or have a lot of blacks in it. You know, small little spotlights can only do so much. So that is very interesting because I.

[B]

Haven'T seen neon like Las Vegas style. They really stood out and popped against the dark background. So it was really smart.

[A]

That's smart. That's smart. I'm curious now so they'll have something to go back with, some homework. I would definitely have that added in. Especially if, you know, you want to. Most people, most of them are going to say, of course all the billboards are, they are lit up. The maintenance, how often is that board serviced? You know, and you want to make sure that they had a recent check on it. You know, you want to make sure that somebody was actively out there because they're going to send you pictures. And for all, you know, maybe a tree, not a tree, but you know, like shrubbery, something could be blocking it. And actually on my way to my parents house, I notice it every time. There is a huge board and it's delightful. And I don't even remember the name of the attorney on it anymore because there's huge shrubbery that's blocking it. So 65 North Fireman. That way. Exactly, exactly. Because they're not serviced. So you have to like add that in there. But the neon sign me up.

[B]

This is my squirrel brain going in a different direction. When I was thinking it's okay, do you please push back on me here? But do you know what I just think is the dumbest advertising that I see for PI attorneys is. I feel it is the bus stop posters. Oh no, you like them. So like to me it's like, okay, so let's advertise to these people that don't own cars, like they're going to, they're going to get on auto accidents.

[A]

Like, like, you mean like in the actual. Where they're waiting for the bus?

[B]

Yeah, like let's advertise the people without vehicles for auto accidents. Smart.

[A]

Yeah. But you have to understand, maybe they don't have a car for a reason.

[B]

Oh, they're bad drivers?

[A]

No, oh no, not. Well, that's one. But I'm thinking that maybe they were in an auto accident and they haven't been able to replace a form of transportation.

[B]

Okay, I reverse. I reverse.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so they're having to take the bus, they're having to get on to and use that metropolitan source of transportation because that's how they're getting to work. And you know, again, it speaks to how injured that they were and how long that they have been out of work and they're going to see that. I think it's brilliant placement because you're obviously hitting somewhere.

[B]

I'm wrong. I. I'm wrong. Okay.

[A]

So I didn't think bad drivers.

[B]

They could be okay, one. One other one for out of home since I went this direction. Before we talk about negotiation tactics. So airport, you know where you're waiting for the care your bag claim you got, like, some advertisements there when you're walking to. Yes. No expensive thoughts.

[A]

Oh, it's not necessarily expensive. You'd really just. Again, you'd have to look at the foot traffic and how much is going by there. I just would question whether or not this is just your demographic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I think branding there, but you're not. It's obviously. So again, it goes back to messaging. Is this a call to action or is this a branding effort? There's some opportunity you could definitely use in there for, like, lost luggage or like, so you can use some kind of quippy little thing, you know, because it's obviously. I hold my breath when my bags are coming out. I don't know why I'm scared every time that they're not going to make it. So that'd be definitely an opportunity to have some, like, throw in some, like, witty kind of tagline or memorable. And they even have now where they talk to you. So they'll have these, like, pillars that come up. And they have them in malls. They're moving them now into airports. And so it's really unique. And you can have them. You know, they'll look. It's not like AI that it's rehearsed and it's recorded, obviously, but it could be active. You could be, you know, standing. And they're pretty tall. So it's a real live version of you. Not like a hologram, but like an actual video on there. So I think yes, if you do it as branding.

[B]

You know, immediately when I was thinking of the airport and this is totally just rando, I was thinking of when you go down the escalator, you're getting ready to go to your bag claim. You want to see that guy in the suit and the hat that's holding the sign that says your name.

[A]

Oh, I would like.

[B]

Let's just Gorilla Mark. Hey, guys, PI Attorneys. Let's just get crazy here. Let's hire somebody. You know, we're not talking about the guy that stands on the side of the road spinning the sign. Let's stand at the bottom of the escalator and Put a little ad for the firm and seven, stand there all day. You've got attention just like the super bowl, but in the air airport, you do.

[A]

I could see a placement for it even more so in, like, the rental areas where you're going to get your rental cars, things like that. Because you're in a new area, and if you need somebody local to that state or city, which you're in, and if you get in trouble, there's room there. But I think that guerrilla marketing would be pretty great. They could have somebody like a fast, easy signup. Because I tell you what, it's not easy getting your rental car unless you have the app where you can get it ahead of time. Takes a long time.

[B]

Okay, we went away from the billboards. Let's go.

[A]

We did.

[B]

Okay, we're back to billboards. We're putting our billboard hats back on.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Okay, so you mentioned it. There's always the. It depends, but we talked about this on tv. But remnant boards, hey, you're going to get these really cheap boards and you can get 50 of them.

[A]

Okay, Twofold. I do not like remnant boards, but I'm also a control freak. I want to be in control of the placement. I want to be in control of knowing how long my contract is on that. And if it's a particularly good board, I don't want to have to give it up just because somebody comes along and is willing to pay for it. So they're going to move me out of it so that you're giving up a lot of freedom with remnant. And I start with that because most people, you know, must start off with like six or four, six, ten boards grow from there. So I don't like remnant boards. If this is your first dip into the market. No, you. These need to be extremely scrutinized. They need to be placed strategically. And I hold on to that, and it's very difficult for me to let that go again. You give up control on whether or not you can keep that board for how long you can keep that board. You give it where it's even placed. You give it all up. Now, if you are someone like Shannara A. McKernan who has them everywhere, then I can see why remnant would make sense for you, because you do. Your billboard presence is already just insurmountable to what everybody else is doing. So I think that it makes sense from an ROI stance and you could still, you can work out a great remnant deal and then throw in there that you'd like to have at Least three boards that you report back to them that we really, really like the placements of these, maybe work out a supplemental contract on that that you don't want to necessarily want to move those, but you're still willing to push forward with these remnant placements. So again it's a negotiation tactic.

[B]

Yeah, the big thing here, it makes me think of Naval Ravikant's four components of leverage. So you've got, you've got code, content, collaboration and capital. So you take an individual, you know, leaning on the capital component where Shannara is already a big customer of Lamar. Right. So he's already getting negotiation economies. So his remnant buy is not what new firm owners buy would be. Right. So he's going to get it at a fraction of the cost of even the remnant advertised price. The which that's the advantage like go big, right?

[A]

Oh yeah, dude. When you're buying that many. Absolutely. Use that to your advantage because ultimately I would do it, anybody would do it. And the rep. You have the power there. That's the negotiation power. It's in your hands.

[B]

Let's talk about another negotiation tactic. I think this one might put some sirens up on the PI attorneys heads. So line of sight provisions, how easily, how difficult are those to get line of sight provisions added to your billboard strategy?

[A]

They're by default, they're angled by default. You know, they're put in a position when you're driving. That is.

[B]

So what we're talking. Let's explain what line of sight provisions are and correct me if I'm wrong here. So I have a billboard at X location and in the line of sight of that billboard cannot be a competitor.

[A]

Oh sorry, I thought you meant in the direction of said interstate or driver's profile for easy viewing. You can, yes, you can set up that you within a certain radius. Again, just like with tv, you're going to be coming up with a premium so you're going to have to pay extra to remove any competition from you. But then are you restricting it just to this side or is it strictly just on the right hand side? Because you do have to be specific because they're not going to count Mr. Man across the street from you because it's not technically of the same classification or within this right hand read locate you want on this side. Have you on both. And you know, I think ultimately what I would recommend to everyone is simply to ensure that there's not a competitor on the backside of your own board. So there comes two sides to it or even in something blocking it maybe it's a shorter board and yours is up higher. You know, you want to make sure that there's nothing inherently blocking yours. Whether it's a competitor or not, I would think is a strong. And again, this goes down to the software and your buying team. They're going to be able to have the power to make sure that that's possible. And if the image, depending upon when the images were taken, you know, they can have the billboard reps produce them with the mo. Go out there and scout it. I want recent as of within the last month photos, because if a new board has gone up, it's already within the software plot like there's already a location tag for it. But if you just want that verification, if your photos are like six months old, I would request that scouting be done. And then from there, everything folded into the contract just like you would for television. You know, you want to make sure that there's a certain separation element. I don't want a competitor the same break as me or actually within 15 minutes of my ad airing. Okay. I don't want a competitor within one mile. That might be too much. You might not get that. Or at least within this certain block. And you can label that within the actual software. You can actually take. It's got a handy dandy drawing pen that you can write on there for verification. And then they can write that up within the contract.

[B]

Amazing, amazing. So those are things to consider, you know, the, you know, premiums, just like you would on the TV side. Again, I think I asked this question on when we had our TV episode, but I gotta ask it again, right? Because it's just the competitive side of me, right? There's clearly better billboard locations than others, right? Can I go to the owner and say, I want to. I want this board. Like, what's the price? Are they locked out? Can they give the person that owns it first rider refusal? Like, to me, this is just who I am. I will go in and bully out everyone, even if I have to pay triple right to secure it. We kind of see this war going on with Newland and Morgan in Orlando. They're kind of doing the same thing, $2 million a month each on TV. But look, I understand, right? I want to go in, I want the best boards. I'm willing in the short term to pay extreme prices where I'm not going to get my CPAs, but I'm willing to do that. Like, is that possible?

[A]

So if it is under contract, it's really not possible unless you have a rep who is. You have to pay attention to your end dates. When your contract ends, you can't get out of that. They can't just kick somebody out just because you're willing to pay three times. Now what they might do is let you know when that, that billboard is up for the free market. And they may or may not mention to said client that their contract is expired because it's a better commission deal for them for you to come along. They could say something to said client and ask, you know, offer out a free movement and not tell them necessarily why you never want to say something's impossible. Because for the right amount of money, I believe anything is possible. Contractually, ethically speaking, they're not supposed to.

[B]

The downside is, you know, here's the big issue, right? You see this with Adler, you see this with some of these legacies. They have the person on speed dial. So when you go in and try to bully them out and they've been in the market for 20 years, they're going to stick with the guy that's been with them for 20 years.

[A]

Exactly. You said that is a key piece and something that I try and tell people. I, for a long time was foreseeing utilizing my interactions with station reps as very transactional. And I do not agree with that methodology. I'm a person at the end of the day and I'm having conversations with another human being. And yes, there's an exchange of funding that equates to exchange of power, but I don't abuse that because I need those people with boots on ground to be there for me to fight for our client in certain situations in which, you know, maybe so and so is getting more bonus spots than we are. You know, somebody else got wind of your boards trying to get you. They're trying to take this board out from underneath you. These are supposed to be your allies, not your enemies. And certainly not treated as if they are your lower level employees. You know, that tier of just do what I say. I don't speak to them in any type of dominant fashion because I want them to form a relationship with me. I value their time, they value our business. And so that is exactly why when you have these guys who have this huge, huge awareness and presence within their markets and they've been there for years, those reps will stand by them till the end because they're dedicated. They've had this client who has contributed to their income for years and they don't. They look at them as not only just a client or a customer at that point, at some, you know, you start to form personal relationships and you're going to fight for them and pass along information when needed.

[B]

There's a lot of value in that. And the consistency, the loyalty, there's a lot of strength in that. And I think a lot of times PI attorneys, they have this, you know, this, this window, this orientation window of like look, if they're looking in the short term, you know, versus the people that are going to play the long term. And the compounding. I did want to, you know, what kind of CPMs are we looking at for billboards? Talk about negotiation strategies with the big one. I think it is Islamar. Are they the biggest?

[A]

It honestly depends which market because you got Lamar and outdoor that are pretty heavy and then you know, with a lot of these other options. So if you go outside of billboards, like remember out of home doesn't just include billboards. But you know, if you go to the gas and they have that TV playing at the gas, I love those. I think that there's a missed opportunity there because if you're somebody like me, I don't just put the thing, the thing, excuse me, I do fill up my car with gas but you know, the gas pump into there and I don't get back in the car because I'm afraid it's going to overflow. And I know this is just in my brain, but they say not to get back in your car either way. There's that screen that's fully. You can put an ad on those in the malls like you said in the airports. There are even now where you can have it just like on the middle of a street. I believe in Houston is where I was where I saw this like a triangular shape type of. It was almost like a city map like here where like a map in a mall. But it was on the corner outside and it had an attorney ad on it. I was like that's super cool. CPM wise we're still should be treated the same as tv. There's no reason you're not paying. I mean they're going to offer it to you at like $11 just like a TV station would and you take that down. But do remember when you're. It's no longer your demographic impression information. You need to make sure that you are looking and getting figures based upon drive by numbers, the actual traffic volume. So there's some little pieces I would look for.

[B]

So I think a lot of our audiences. I'm big time into real estate and so I do a Lot of this, I'm not going to lie. I looked at billboard investing because I have a big network, I've got the pod. And I still think there's a big opportunity here. Right. You're paying $5,000 a month, 60,000 a year. You do the 1% rule. You pick up a billboard for 600 grand is the equivalent to a house now, at least the ones that I was looking for for sale or, you know, exceeding that. But I think there's also, you know, there's less maintenance. Right. You're not dealing with tenant screening and you are right with to some capacity. So. And then me being in the Midwest, it's like, how many of these farmers that are putting cell towers in their fields getting the $2,000 a month, like put a billboard there, let's give them the $2,000 a month for their right on the interstate.

[A]

It's not a bad idea. That's actually great. And you're not the first person I remember. I will say this though. Go ahead and do that. Yeah. Because I tell you what, we need some independence out there that actually care and like also try, just, just try to be like Lamar or outdoor. Just give it, you know, set that as the standard. But you can't just like put up a yard sale sign and call that a billboard. And I will tell you right now, and I'm not even lying, it was basically a poster board held up by like two, you know, those paint can sticks. That is not a billboard. That is not a billboard. I don't care how long they've been your family friend. And this happened to me when I was buying from Mobile, Alabama and they were not a very big company. I don't care. I don't care if you're a big company. Send me your specs, send me the images of the board and I'm going, that's not a billboard.

[B]

Right. That so, so I, I, I went off a tangent again. So ran it back in. What kind of CPMs are we looking? Like, what kind of base? Obviously every market's different, but like, what type of like early strategy. I don't have a ton of money to invest. I want to do some supplemental boards and then more late game. Let's, let's talk through like the CPMs and let's talk about just the, the budgeting and like just how you should think about this as a PR attorney.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. So billboard prices are inherently, they're not as large as what people may think. You know, in, in any given market. I mean, you're coming up, it could be $800. And you, you have to remember if we're working off a 600 week or four week schedule or how they're billing again, they bill a little bit differently than broadcast and it's all negotiated so you can change that. So whatever it is. But I'm going to do it by a month just to keep things uniform across the board. So one board that is maybe on a smaller spec, so you have bulletins and then you have posters and so your prices are going to range anywhere from 800 to 4,000. You know, if you get something astronomical and probably even beyond that, especially if you're dealing with something in and near a sports stadium like in Kansas City. So they're going to shoot up at that point now you're still able to get within that five to six dollars cost per thousand probably lower. So and just make sure that your, the way that you are calculating that is based upon drive by numbers. The actual traffic through there. Don't let them just detach the number of adults in that designated market area.

[B]

That's and ooh, that's a little curveball. So they'll try to distract you. Like this is the population density of this area. Like no. How many vehicles pass by this board?

[A]

Yes, yes. And that's what I meant earlier when I said the Department of Transportation. So those figures are going to be from there and you'll see it. The source is going to be put onto that sheet. But again if you have a good buying team and that understands and has the resources, they know what to look for and they have the right tools, they will be able to immediately. You can tell, you can just tell. It could just be because oh, it's like this is impression data sourced from how many households are within the market. That's not what we're looking for. We're looking for drive by and you need to have. Could be. I'm just going to use Tennessee just because that's where I am. But it's like Tennessee Department of Transportation figures, blah blah, blah, a year, something like that. But that, that's. You could go into any, any given. I can't say it because again it's based on density within the population within the actual dma. So how many homes and people are in there. So I would say just to get your toe into the water and average. If I'm just taking every. I think The United States 10,000amonth is enough to get at least four to seven boards including production. So again, and that's going to be your one time, not production as in like shooting, but I'm talking like they have to print that sucker out. They have to print it and then they got to get the guy out there hanging it up. So installation and production costs for that are baked in and that's just a one time. Anytime we do change the wrap, it's another creative change cost. So I would say but you could go lower than that. I mean you could have a billboard budget for 4,500 and maybe get four boards. So again, it depends on your DMA.

[B]

Do they do you know, for example property management. Right. You get X amount of properties, they drop their percentage fee. Right. Can they say hey, for these 10 boards in this impression share, it's X but if you go to 15, it's this and we'll apply this across all. Is there like the bulk pricing component and strategy again?

[A]

Yes. Just like with tv, you'll get that added value in there. It's not. You can still have a great negotiation with a minimum billboard buy. Here's what I would tell you to really, the pieces that I would really try and negotiate down are going to be those production costs. You know, I will pay the one time hanging fee. I don't, but I don't want to have to pay it again until the next until this contract expires and we go through it again and just add in a caveat that we are allowed to change it upon emergency or just for one time within the contract at no cost. That should be just kind of something that they'd be willing to work with you on instead of. Because really that's where it's going to come down to how often you want to change your messaging. And let's just say if you want to change two scenarios, you got a few in the pipeline that you're excited to display. Maybe it's inventory over the next year. So you already know you want to change your boards four times this year. Then I would tell you maybe come up a little bit more on those individual costs and get that production and new creative hanging or installation charges wiped for the year of contract. Because I think that's going to save you in the end. So you push and push until you get get something for free and you will. Now if you don't have any creative changes, then that's when you come down and say okay, well I tell you what, maybe what if I add in another board and I'll pay this amount but I want all these to come back down to this number. So again, it's just a. It's a game of. It's so fun. It's like a puzzle. It's a game of negotiations. And you just really have to make sure prep before don't do it on. And any media buying agency is going to do that for you. You should know already. Here's what I'm willing to do. Here's where I'd be happy. Here's my hard stop.

[B]

Right. Here's the home run negotiation too.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is fantastic. So let me from the novice perspective me what I'm hearing. Okay, so first we talked about creative. We talked about seven words or less. We talked about, you know, sharp colors. We talked about the earned media component. We talked about placement. Right hand reads. Avoiding digital. Everything has an it depends. But overall just, you know, avoid digital. We want to avoid Remnant because there's a reason why these are remnants because nobody drives by them and. And then we want to negotiate.

[A]

Yeah. And I will say to Remnant, it's not necessarily that nobody drives by them, but I, you know, and it's like, I don't want to hate on it again. If you are looking at that kind of volum, then it makes sense. But you still use that power that you have because you are securing so much inventory to get a little bit of secured placements locked down. There are so many opportunity there for AB testing and attribution testing. If you're really not tied to any vanity numbers, I would really almost challenge everyone to just say which ones do you know that are really working and how do you know that there's so many. There's so much opportunity, whether that just be like a URL and you want to track how many people visit it. You know, something catchy or fun. If you have another, you know, easy to remember, 800. I don't like 800 numbers on the billboards, but you'll even notice things that pick up with your audience as a catchphrase, as another as like, oh, did you see this board? Yada yada. So there's ways to test it out. But I would say with Remnant, just, just add in a few areas of where you really want to make sure your message is seen. You can do that. Add in those securing elements.

[B]

Super smart, guys. This was a lot of fun, Sarah. This is a lot of fun. We're going to come back. Sarah's going to be on a future episode. We're going to talk about radio. We're really going to get in the weeds on radio. Thank you for listening.

[A]

Thanks so much, Chris. I appreciate it.

[B]

You just heard firsthand how much goes into buying the right billboards in the right places for the right rates, with the right creative. Let's be real. You're busy running a law firm and fighting for your clients. You focus on winning cases, we focus on getting them. Hit us up@ Rankings IO.