332. Unreasonable Success: Why Most Law Firms Plateau and How to Break 8 Figures w/ Michael Mogill

Summary

Personal Injury Mastermind Episode 332: Unreasonable Success with Michael Mogul

Host: Chris Dreyer
Guest: Michael Mogul
Release Date: June 12, 2025
Duration: Approximately 37 minutes

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Introduction: Embracing Unreasonable Success

The episode kicks off with Chris Dreyer introducing Michael Mogul, a visionary in scaling law firms beyond traditional success metrics. Michael rejects complacency, advocating for setting audacious goals that necessitate transformative change. As Chris highlights, “Discomfort is where Michael lives because in his world, unreasonable success is the only way forward” (00:17).

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Achieving and Raising the Bar of Success

Michael shares his journey of exceeding initial goals, remarking, “We hit it in November of last year, and we exceeded. We hit 1107 firms” (01:08). Initially aiming to help a thousand law firms grow by a million dollars each, Michael recognized the need for a more expansive vision due to inflation and the evolving legal landscape. This led to setting an ambitious target of assisting 10,000 firms to reach $10 million each, thereby aiming for a collective impact of around $100 billion in the legal industry.

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Scaling Law Firms: From Chaos to Complexity

Michael delves into the common barriers that prevent law firms from scaling:

1. From Six to Seven Figures: Overcoming Chaos

   • Brand and Positioning: Establishing a strong brand is crucial.
   • Team Building: “The first step is like, okay, I need to expand my capacity. I need help” (07:41). Hiring executive assistants, paralegals, or other support staff can alleviate the chaos of solo operations.

2. From Seven to Eight Figures: Managing Complexity

   • Culture and Communication: As firms grow, maintaining clear communication and a cohesive culture becomes challenging.
   • Efficiency and Metrics: Implementing systems for efficiency and tracking key performance indicators (KPIs) marks the transition to a true business entity.
   • Avoiding Comfort Zones: Michael warns, “the only way out of eight to nine figures is to intentionally, make yourself uncomfortable” (10:45).

He emphasizes the rarity of achieving such levels of success, stating, “Less than 1% of all small businesses in America ever get to seven figures. Less than .01% get to eight figures” (10:15).

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Building a High-Performance Team

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the importance of assembling a top-tier team. Michael explains, “It's all about how do I get this human being like to want to come over here and like dude who's incredibly talented” (12:00). Attracting and retaining exceptional talent is pivotal for scaling, especially when competing against firms with massive marketing budgets.

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Marketing Strategies: Demand Capture vs. Brand Building

Michael contrasts two fundamental marketing approaches:

1. Demand Capture (Lead Generation):

   • Involves strategies like Pay-Per-Click (PPC) and Local Services Ads (LSAs).
   • Drawback: Increasing acquisition costs with diminishing returns. Michael notes, “the cost of acquisition continues to rise” (25:17).

2. Brand Building:

   • Focuses on long-term reputation and visibility.
   • Advantage: Generates referrals and word-of-mouth, which are more sustainable and scalable.
   • Michael asserts, “I've never once talked to someone who has invested years in building brand that looks back and says, I wish I would have started later” (25:30).

He advocates for a strategic shift towards brand building to create a lasting impact and reduce dependency on volatile lead generation methods.

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The Evolution of Legal Marketing: Streaming and Social Media

Michael discusses the transition from traditional media to streaming platforms and social media:

• Streaming Ads vs. Traditional TV:

  • Higher Completion Rates: Streaming ads boast nearly 100% completion since they are often unskippable (15:03).
  • Cost-Effective: Running ads on streaming platforms is significantly cheaper than traditional TV commercials.
  • Targeting Capabilities: Advanced demographic and intent-based targeting allows for granular audience segmentation.

• Integration with Social Media:

  • Combining streaming ads with social media retargeting amplifies brand presence across multiple touchpoints.
  • Michael highlights, “If you combine it all, it's a very powerful combination” (18:33).

This integrated approach ensures that potential clients encounter the brand consistently, reinforcing recognition and trust.

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Leadership Challenges and Mindset

Michael shares his insights on leadership, emphasizing the emotional and mental resilience required:

• The Burden of Leadership: “It's one of the most thankless roles that you can be in” (34:41). Leaders constantly address the most challenging problems, often without immediate recognition.
• Maintaining Motivation: When faced with adversity, Michael practices gratitude to shift his mindset: “I just start writing down things I'm grateful for” (36:26).
• Continuous Growth: Leaders must remain proactive, embracing discomfort to foster ongoing success.

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Michael's Personal Habits and Daily Rituals

A glimpse into Michael’s disciplined lifestyle reveals habits that contribute to his success:

• Morning Routine: Begins at 5:00 AM with a cold plunge, followed by a weighted vest walk while playing competitive video games like Call of Duty (30:03).
• Health and Wellness: Emphasizes physical health through activities like red light therapy and maintaining a balanced diet.
• Family Time: Allocates evening hours for family, ensuring a work-life balance.
• Golden Hour: Devotes the final hour of the day to personal time with his wife, enhancing personal relationships.

These rituals exemplify his commitment to personal growth and maintaining high energy levels.

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Final Thoughts and Advice

Concluding the episode, Michael underscores the importance of visionary leadership and relentless pursuit of excellence:

• Unwavering Commitment: “Success isn't the goal. Unreasonable success is if you want a different outcome, you have to become someone different” (37:00).
• Embracing Change: Leaders must be willing to rebuild and adapt continuously to achieve higher levels of success.
• Resources and Connections: Michael directs listeners to his podcast and social media for further insights and connection.

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Key Takeaways

• Set Ambitious Goals: Aim higher than conventional targets to drive transformative growth.
• Build a Strong Team: Invest in top talent to navigate the complexities of scaling.
• Focus on Brand Building: Prioritize long-term brand development over short-term lead generation.
• Leverage Modern Marketing: Utilize streaming and social media for effective, cost-efficient advertising.
• Maintain Leadership Resilience: Cultivate a mindset of gratitude and continuous improvement.
• Adopt Consistent Habits: Implement daily routines that enhance physical and mental well-being.

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Notable Quotes

• “Discomfort is where Michael lives because in his world, unreasonable success is the only way forward.” (00:17)
• “We hit it in November of last year, and we exceeded. We hit 1107 firms.” (01:08)
• “The first step is like, okay, I need to expand my capacity. I need help.” (07:41)
• “Less than 1% of all small businesses in America ever get to seven figures. Less than .01% get to eight figures.” (10:15)
• “It's all about how do I get this human being like to want to come over here and like dude who's incredibly talented.” (12:00)
• “I've never once talked to someone who has invested years in building brand that looks back and says, I wish I would have started later.” (25:30)
• “It's one of the most thankless roles that you can be in.” (34:41)
• “I just start writing down things I'm grateful for.” (36:26)
• “Success isn't the goal. Unreasonable success is if you want a different outcome, you have to become someone different.” (37:00)

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Connect with Michael Mogul

• Podcast: The Changing Attorney Podcast (available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, etc.)
• Website: Crisp.co
• Social Media: Search for “MOGIIL” on Instagram and other platforms to follow Michael’s updates and insights.

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This episode offers invaluable insights for personal injury attorneys aiming to transcend traditional growth barriers. Michael Mogul’s strategies on scaling, team building, and innovative marketing provide actionable steps to achieve and sustain extraordinary success in the competitive legal landscape.

Transcript

[Michael Mogul]

You ask any law firm in America who do your best cases come from, and they'll say referral and word of mouth. Right. Okay, well, how does that happen? Right? I don't want to compete against John Morgan. Right? Like, John's going to spend over $200 million in marketing. He's going to outspend me every single time. So what do I do?

[Chris Dreyer]

Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. Let's get into it. Michael Mogul doesn't believe in playing it safe. He believes in setting goals so ambitious they force you to become someone new just to reach them. After helping over a thousand law firms grow by seven figures, most would celebrate. He didn't. Instead, he raised the bar. 10,000 firms, 10 million each. $100 billion of impact. Discomfort is where Michael lives because in his world, unreasonable success is the only way forward. In this conversation, we talk about scaling, team building, the trap of comfort, and why most firms will never reach their potential. Let's go. I want to give you some massive props right out of the gate, but you recently hit your vision of helping a thousand firms grow by a million dollars each. What did it feel like to hit that mark? Tell me you didn't just immediately move the flag post. You know, tell me about it.

[Michael Mogul]

We hit it in November of last year, and we exceeded. We hit 1107 firms. I'll tell you, probably at the start of that year or maybe the end of 2023. I was already thinking about the next one because you could kind of see the writing on the wall. You have enough data. You see how it's pacing, you see how it's projecting. You're like, okay, this is going to happen probably in the next year, maybe year and a half. So when we set the vision back in 2018 of helping a thousand law firms grow their revenues by a million each, like, this was, where do we even begin, Right? Like, we weren't working with a thousand firms, like, you know, helping them grow their revenues by a million each. And. And the whole reason for that was just to if a firm at the time, at least in 2018, could scale by, you know, a million or more, you have more infrastructure in place. You have systems, you have a team. Like, the impact, the number of clients you can serve is exponentially greater. And we felt that was a worthwhile vision to pursue. And then as you fast forward to, I think, what was 2023 like? We were close. We were at over, like, 900 at that point. And inflation had hit, and a million wasn't, you know, what it used to be back in 2018. And I was like, look, what's a million bucks, right? Like, you can't, you know, that's not retirement. You're done forever, right? And especially a million dollars in a law firm. So I was like, look, we got to think of a bigger vision. And it was just, you know, I think the best visions are ones that one you can quantify and then two that are infinite in a sense. So that was the idea behind 10,000 law firms. 10 million each. So instead of a billion dollar annual impact, it became a, what is it like a hundred billion, you know, annual impact in the legal industry as a whole is I think 370, maybe 380 billion. The same excitement I had in 2018, I now have today of saying, I don't even know where to start. How do we even make a dent in this?

[Chris Dreyer]

I think it's incredible and it makes you think differently when you set those types of goals versus the small goals. I remember, you know, we go around, we set our annual planning and it's like, oh, we're going to hit this revenue target. I'm like, well, what would it look like if we hit this other target? You know, get people out of their comfort zone.

[Michael Mogul]

I'm just of the belief that when you set a target, if you already know how to get there, then it's not very exciting, right? Because if you already know how you're going to get there, it's usually like goals where you say, I'm going to grow by 5% or 10% and then people just equate that with we're going to work longer and we're going to work harder. But if you say okay, 5x or something crazy like, you know, 10x 20x, then you can't just work your way to it, right? It's not just we're going to work harder. We have to reimagine how, how the entire business operates outside of that.

[Chris Dreyer]

Give me some other highlights. Tell me about some exciting wins, milestones, campaign results or just personal wins too. I'd love to hear that.

[Michael Mogul]

Oh, man. Where I begin. So my daughter, the youngest, just turned four. We've got a six year old and a four year old say those are like the biggest wins then you know, as far as like business wins, this is a really exciting time. We had our conference, interviewed Nick Saban and a Fireside chat so closed that with a performance by Ludacris. So it's kind of a, a fun into that year and really the big change was we got in the Business to, to be really a self managing team probably about two years ago. And I had a health scare at the end of 2022. This was after that Mercedes Benz stadium event. And I was. That probably took years off my life of like, who does an event in a football stadium?

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah, we've talked about this, Chris.

[Michael Mogul]

If you did this, I would be like, I would root for you. Like, I'd be your biggest advocate, but I would not wish this upon my worst enemy.

[Chris Dreyer]

We've talked about this before and in private conversations, like, doing an event is hard because those tickets seem to come in at the very end. No matter how much of Facebook ads. I mean, you'll get a trickle, right? But they come in at the end, you know, no matter scarcity and different tactics and. Yeah, so it's a stressful time. I get mad props to that.

[Michael Mogul]

No one's asking for another legal conference.

[Chris Dreyer]

No.

[Michael Mogul]

Right. Like no one. So anyway, so after that, I basically like team self managing. We got great leaders in place. I go all in on the health focus, like health, longevity, et cetera. Like I become the, you know, Brian Johnson. Right. Essentially, like just sauna's, cold plunges, like nutritionist diet. And I was, you know, kind of searching, okay, what's, what's the next thing? I mean, I was working on the second book, obviously still dropping in at Chris. We do workshops, that sort of thing. And after about a year of that, man, I got so bored that I came back and we just essentially was like, let's scale this thing. Let's blow up the vision. Let's make it even greater. That happened, I think in the middle of last year and I believe in June. And I've been back ever since. We work hard many times. Work hard now so that you don't work. Have to work hard later. Right. We've solved a lot of problems. You have a great team. So what keeps you going then? And what does it take to, to go from like having hit whatever that milestone or reach the top of that mountain to then go back to the very bottom and want to put yourself through everything like that you. You had to go through probably even worse and do it again. Right. Like, you gotta be absolutely sick and twisted.

[Chris Dreyer]

You love to compete. I love to compete. It's fun.

[Michael Mogul]

I share this with our team a lot when I want to put them in the shoes of a law firm owner, like who goes to law school graduates and then let's say works under the law firm that says, I'm gonna bet on myself, I'm gonna start My own firm. And I say, okay, imagine this. Imagine you decide to do that one day, and on the day that you decide to start your law firm, you're competing against people that have been doing it for 20, 30 years, that are, like, way more resource than you, that just know what they're doing, have amazing teams, are investing millions in marketing, and you got to compete with that on day one. Imagine you don't know anything. You don't know how to hire people, you don't know intake. You don't know how to acquire cases. It's just you. So what happens is you work 100 hours a week and you stress the hell out. And then you say, like, is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

[Chris Dreyer]

I think, like, even if you had the knowledge, there's challenges, right? With consolidations with the capital, you know, the capital from a leverage perspective. I think that's part of the appeal of mass torts, right? Oh, there's this new mass tort just started. Let me get in. Like, I got the knowledge, but now I'm kind of at the same starting point versus, like, you going after auto or DUI or divorce. It's like, you know, it's tough. It's tough. So you got to think differently. We've had some conversations ourselves about, I mean, professional services, right? Like, even what we do, like, a lot of times people don't associate that, but it's professional services. You've helped firms scale across, you know, major revenue thresholds. Let's break down some of these inflection points. When firms are moving at the different levels. Like, when you see a firm say, michael, I don't even know, like, six figures to me, like, you're still working for somebody else. Or like, I don't know, like, you're really struggling. Like, you're not in the game. The times have changed with inflation, you know, when you're at a million, you know, what's it take to go from a million to eight? Like, what do you see for law firms?

[Michael Mogul]

Yeah. So I think about it from the standpoint of, like, why do firms plateau? What prevents a firm from going from, like, one level to the next level? The average law firm in America, it makes $140,000 a year, like, gross revenue.

[Chris Dreyer]

Wow. I didn't know that. I thought it would be higher.

[Michael Mogul]

That's just wild to me, right? That's pre tax. That is just gross revenue. And you think, okay, so what prevents a firm from going from six figures to seven figures? Because most firms are under seven figures. Like, the Majority, right. And, and right there. It's just, it's just chaos. You're trying to do everything on your own. Like you're just burning the midnight oil. We all start somewhere, right? Like you and I did. You're doing lunches, you're trying to go out and get business. You're also working with clients. You're doing the billing. You are the intake, right? Like it's, everybody's calling your phone. Doesn't matter if you're in court. How do you get out of that? And I think the first step of getting out of that chaos, and this is where firms I believe start to go from six to seven figures is one is in the brand and positioning. But the other big factor I really think is in the team. Right? It's just asking for help. It could be an executive assistant, it could be just a paralegal. It could be just someone that can give you more capacity back so that you can continue to grow the firm. Because there's nothing worse than somebody who's working a hundred hours a week. And I'm sure you can relate to this. It's like stressed out and exhausted and believes they need more leads and cases, right? Like that would do absolutely nothing for them besides probably drive them closer towards the grave. So like the first step is like, okay, I need to expand my capacity. I need help, right? Then you're at the seven figure mark. And then there's firms that stay at seven figures for a long time. What is the reason most firms stay there? You may have a few people at that point, like a few team members. And like now it's, it's just the complexity of it all. When it's just you or it's you and two or three people, the lines of communication are pretty clear. What happens when you have like 20 people, 30 people, 40 people. Now you've got to figure out a way to get people from all these different backgrounds and personality styles to align and work together. And this is where culture starts to play a big role. This also comes down to, like, how do you start really to scale? Before, you know, maybe you were taking on five, ten cases a month. But how you, you know, how do you scale to 100? Right. It's completely different structure. You start to get into just overall, like efficiency and data and metrics and KPIs. This is where I believe it actually starts to become a real business. Right? Like the seven to eight figures and then you get to eight. And this to me is like the biggest danger zone that ever exists. And I know countless firm owners that, like, when they reach out, they were here and they've been here a long time. 15 million, 25 million, 30 million. What I'm about to share may be completely unrelatable to some people listening and to those that it is relatable, they'll just be nodding their heads, is that this is the part where you get comfortable, life's pretty good. I mean, who could blame you? You run a $25 million law firm, you've got a team in place and is it perfect? No. But you worked your ass off for the last maybe two decades to get it here, and you want to relax and you want to enjoy time with your family and you're just thinking, okay, well, kind of lose that fire in some respects. If you look at six to seven figures, that's chaos. You overcome that by, you know, asking for help. And then from seven to eight figures, that's more around complexity. How do you simplify it? But then eight to nine figures, like, how do you get out of that comfort zone? Like, how do you really blow past, let's say you're 30 million, 40 million, and you're like, we've been here for, you know, three, four, five years. We just can't seem to break out of it. I'm telling you, this is the hardest one to do it. I've seen this time and time again. The only way out of this, of eight to nine figures, is to intentionally, intentionally make yourself uncomfortable, make everyone around you uncomfortable, and blow the whole thing up like it's day one and rebuild it. What it needs to be for a nine figure organization. And the reason that's so hard to do is because everything is good, right? It's not great. It's not like, you know, it's not like your ideal state, but it's not. When you were starting out and you could barely put food on the table and you're just worried about how are we going to make payroll, right? So you think, am I going to bust up a good thing and put myself through all this and my team through this? And it just seems stressful and exhausting. So to put it in perspective, less than 1% of all small businesses in America ever get to seven figures. And less than.01% get to eight figures. And then when it comes to nine figures, it's like.00,001%. That's small business. That's not even just talking about law firms. That's like all small businesses in America.

[Chris Dreyer]

Wild, wild, wild. I got, you know, for me personally, the, the pain line for me, you know taking some Dan Martell here was like 8 to 10. 8 to 10 was really hard for me because what I found was like I had to hire a lot of non revenue generating people that I was resistant to like, like hr, middle managers, finance to get that data component. So actually like you say 8 to.

[Michael Mogul]

10 million, not 8 to 10 figures.

[Chris Dreyer]

8 to 10 million? Yes. Yeah, yeah for me, yeah. And then from 10 to 20 once you had those it's like you got the infrastructure. I, I think now I'm gonna sound like a huge nerd. Like and I, I feel like I'm just playing people Pokemon. Yeah, like that's what I feel like I'm playing. It's like oh I need better Facebook ads. Who's the best at Facebook ads? Oh I need better this. Who's the best? It's like I gotta catch em all, gotta catch all the talent. Like am I wrong?

[Michael Mogul]

Is it like that's man, that's what it is. I had a conversation with somebody yesterday. They were a higher up at rippling the H R S company and these guys have been on like multi thousand percent growth rate. They're on their way to like a massive ipo. They've already got a multi billion dollar valuation. And I was just, I was talking to this guy who's like one of the execs there. That's all they focus on. They're like how do we get the best and brightest in here? That's where all the growth happens. That's where all the scale happens. Because it's less about hey where do we find enough just capacity hires. It's more so around like where do we find these people that have already done what we're trying to do and how do we get them into our own organization? Especially you're scaling from like eight to nine figures. That's where in some ways I think like 80 to 90% of your time goes of just how do I get this human being like to want to come over here and like dude who's incredibly talented, right. That could take their talents anywhere, right? Last week we had a workshop. There was a firm that's about 120 million in revenue. He was saying the same thing like they go out and they try to find the top trial lawyers because everybody wants them, right? And like the lengths that they go through, right. To like to find these trial lawyers and to attract them to their firm. So you're not going to win them over with more money or better benefits. It's them Believing in you and your vision and, and sometimes they're nurturing these guys for years, years, just, just trying to get them over.

[Chris Dreyer]

So literally yesterday I fired off a text to Mike Rose, a Hatch Rose, Steve Gersten, Bob Simon, some heavy, you know, like legit trial attorneys. And I'm like, and I was asking about their compensation structure for trial attorneys. To me the game is going to be who's got the trial attorneys? But like, for sure, what's the strategy around finding them, retaining them, paying them.

[Michael Mogul]

Correctly, that's such a, it's like a rare commodity. It's like, yes, there's 8 billion people out there, but to find like the cream of the crop, like trial turns. Because again, if you, if you get a great one, your confidence is massive because number one, like there's, you know, that's one less thing you have to worry about because you know that they're going to do a phenomenal job when they go to court. So for, for somebody who's trying to get out of the, of going to the courtroom, that's the solution. And then for somebody who wants to build up an amazing trial team, that's the way they scale their firm. Because now instead of having to refer out these cases like now these cases can be referred actually to them and then they can maximize the value of said cases.

[Chris Dreyer]

You know, so legal marketing is evolving, right? AI, AI, AI. Attention is fragmented. You know, Crisp has been on the forefront of this. First with social stack. Now you got the streaming stacks, top level. Just top me about streaming stack in this position.

[Michael Mogul]

The whole reason we exist is to help the best cases go to the best attorneys. Because the unfortunate truth is the best cases go to the best marketers. And when we got our start, it was helping, you know, small firms, solo attorneys compete against these big players where they couldn't compete resource wise, like they couldn't do TV commercials and radio and billboards. And social media at the time was a much lower barrier to entry. But there was a lot of attention there. There's a lot of eyeballs like Facebook, YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram. And there's an amazing way to just build your brand by placing content, running ads like, you know, like the little six second YouTube bumper ads that play before video plays. Any time you pull up Facebook you're getting hit with videos and video ads, right? So you can build great brands. But the thing that was always out of reach is, is TV people are cutting the cord. And they'd be right because over 90% of households today like are, you know, smart TVs like, or connected TV, meaning that you have, whether it's your native TV or a Chromecast or a Roku or an Apple TV or something that you're using to access a streaming network in some way, like hulu, a Netflix, YouTube TV, something like that, right? People are still consuming that content. So that's where streaming stack came in. And the standpoint of like instead of running traditional TV like commercials, which are generally very expensive, you're competing for airtime. The completion rate's very low. I think it's less than 20% when you're, when you have like traditional TV commercials. Because usually what happens is, is that if it's pre recorded, like dvr, people just skip the commercials and if they're watching them live, they'll just change the channel, right? But on streaming it's almost a hundred percent completion rate because even if you change the channel, the ad follows you, right? Like you cannot go to the next thing until like the ad completes. So in some ways they're unskippable. And then the actual ads, like the video ads on streaming are a fraction of the cost of traditional. And we're talking like major networks. Like if you want to run ads like when Yellowstone is playing, if you want to be on like you know, just major, like abc, cbs, cnn, Fox News, et cetera. And the thing that I actually think is most interesting, most people are not watching live TV anymore except for live sports. So the ability to run your commercials on live sports, like right now we've got the NBA playoffs, the NHL playoffs, like before we, you know, we had the Masters and then you've got college football. And to be able to do so for less than 20 cents of you and have it tracked is amazing. So basically the whole dynamic that happens here is that you have, especially if you combine the social and the streaming. So anybody that visits your website now, you can actually show up on the biggest screen of their house, like in their house while they're watching a show, Survivor or whatever. Now they're, because they visited your website, they can see a streaming ad. But then even people that, let's say see streaming ads on their TV or tablet, you know, or wherever they're accessing, that they now can get hit with ads on, across the Internet, right? So this, everything works in tandem. And the ultimate goal of this is that for a prospective client, wherever they are, right? Like they're at the gym. This happened recently at one of our firms. It was like they were working out Orange theory and then it's all like Their commercial, come on. Wow. Like, how did you get on, you know, espn, right? And it just creates this amazing social proof. And they're like, oh, yeah, that was 7 cents. It comes on there. And then when somebody's later at their computer, they're seeing ads there, right? Then they pull out their phone, they're like, you know, they're browsing Reddit, you know, or they're on YouTube, they're seeing ads there, like, even just like banner ads and retargeting ads. And then they finally sit home with their spouse, They've had a long day, man. Like, you've been banging them out on, on their computer when they were at the gym on their phone. And they're like, all right, man, I'm finally ready to relax. Throw on Yellowstone and bang, man, you hit them again, right? And just.

[Chris Dreyer]

That's incredible.

[Michael Mogul]

So it's just combining the two. What I really like right now about streaming and OTT is it's in many ways like what social ads were, I feel like eight or nine years ago. So pre, like Cambridge Analytica, where, you know, in social ads you used to be able to do a lot more targeting options.

[Chris Dreyer]

That cookie, the cookie, they're removing them.

[Michael Mogul]

And then cookie, in the name of data privacy, they're like, look, we got a, you know, there's certain things you can't target anymore. Not true. In streaming, right? Like the, you get all sorts of like demographic data. You could target people that are like everything from like household income to business owners to those that are like a part of like motorcycle clubs that have XYZ type of insurance. I mean, you can get very, very, very granular with this just because a lot of the data companies, they still sell, you know, to the streaming services. So if you can combine it all, it's a very powerful combination. And my prediction, just as we saw with social, is that a lot of the large traditional advertisers are going to look at us and say, look, I'm going to get a lot more bang for my buck. Not to mention it's trackable. Not to mention, like, you can pull it in ties in with the Google Analytics, so you could actually see, okay, who was it that watched one of our streaming ads, right, on the streaming networks that then visited our website. So we have like verified visits, right, of just attributing to those that watch.

[Chris Dreyer]

Streaming the targeting component. So what I see, I know like YouTube and some of the small device is like, you know, you can track that. What about the large device viewing tv? You see that brand Increase, maybe throw a vanity phone number. I know some people are trying to throw the QR code up, but like, look, you really can't track that either. So, like, what do you say to those individuals? Like, you know as well as I do that first of all, user behavior. They might go to YouTube TV and then they may go to Google. Then they may see the billboard. Like, what's your thoughts on all this?

[Michael Mogul]

Yeah, so that's actually a really good point. I would say if your goal is leads, you're going to be probably very disappointed. This would be some not a reason to do this, right? Like, if your goal is leads, I say, hey, do Google pay per click, do LSAs. I would treat this as like online billboards in many ways, right? Like the same way you have hundreds of billboards, but now you can have this on social and on streaming and that effect is hugely impactful. And you don't even need to bother with like a vanity phone number or anything like that. I mean, the benefit on streaming is you can literally click the ad right, like from your device. And I would look at streaming as not just the tv but also tablets. And when people are like, this actually blew my mind, like years ago when we were first investigating this, I thought, look, I pay for the YouTube Premium because I have young kids and I don't want to run ads. And then I've got YouTube TV and it's like, are people really seeing ads? And I learned that like 90% of households, they get the free versions, right? Like, they get the ad supported version. And it's same thing with like, I think it's like fubo, right? Like, or freebie.

[Chris Dreyer]

Like, bro, I'm in that category. And I'm like a different nut case, though. I like to watch the ads because I'm a marketer.

[Michael Mogul]

Yeah. So they're like, so you don't have to worry about the ads being served. But yeah, I mean, to your point, so the tracking when the streaming is like IP based, right? So like you've got like the device, like imei, right. Like, if you want to get like technical about it in terms of like attributing it to a specific household and then the actual IP itself. So like when you're targeting specific households and then on social, there is like, you still have some of the cookies. But we look at it as we build audiences based on intent. So if you ask like, let's say a personal injury lawyer, and they're like, okay, who do you want to target? And they're like injured people, like who's your ideal client? Injured people. Which is like such a terrible answer by the way. Because if you could just get a little more granular with it and say, you know what, if I look through our client base, our best clients have been moms, right? And like they're moms with kids or they are part of like neighborhood associations or whatever, like, or their husbands are construction workers or just something, some trend you can identify. Because if you can say moms, boom, like you could cut out 50% of the wasted spend right there. But you don't have to target men, right? So you can narrow it. But then the other thing is when we say intent based targeting is, let's say you do narrow this population, then you're running content to them and let's say it's about your personal injury firm. So somebody who generally just isn't going to watch more than three or five seconds of that isn't high intent and you wouldn't want to continue to serve up more ads to them versus somebody who watches 30 seconds or a minute or two minutes, like it would make sense to show them more of that stuff so you could build audiences that way too. But I would say if nothing else, like at the absolute lowest hanging fruit, if you just do nothing else, just set up the retargeting ads, like just the people who visit your website, retarget them on social, retarget them on streaming, they've already found you. Like just continue to get your message in front of them and you can target that exact audience and you don't have to even go broad.

[Chris Dreyer]

Love that. I've heard this and I generally don't know. I've heard geofencing violates HIPAA and, but I don't know, like I even asked ChatGPT legit this question before and they're like, you get in the danger zone if you, your ads assume diagnosis like cancer ad and oncology clinic, you know, so for the auto guys, like that's not violating hipaa, right? If you're hitting the hospital or, or like what's your thoughts on that?

[Michael Mogul]

I mean, look, I just, I want to give you a straight answer.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah.

[Michael Mogul]

So I just, how would they prove it? So I'll give you an example. Let's say you did do the geofencing and you set up ads to run around a certain like, like chiropractic clinics, hospitals or whatever. Right? But let's say you didn't do that and you just say, hey, we're targeting this audience in Miami, Florida. And it just so Happened the person was sitting at the hospital and they saw the ad anyway. Yeah, right, because they had their phone out. So how could you prove that it was even geofenced? Right? So I don't know, I think that that's very, very, I don't know that it violates HIPAA anyway first and foremost.

[Chris Dreyer]

Right, right.

[Michael Mogul]

But regardless this is the kind of the whole idea around like this ABS is and lead gen marketing because someone would say, hey I know in Arizona, you know, they remove rule 5.4 so they allow non lawyer firm ownership. But I'm in Texas so that's not going to bother me. And then you say okay, well guess what? Then you get the lead gen companies that are venture backed, right. And they can run ads all over America. So when they're running ads in Texas and they're getting leads, right, that those leads that would otherwise have gone to you other lawyers in Texas, but they get the leads and sell them back to you. And then the real like this is the thing that is going to get me like you know, Michael Mo would never kill himself. So just like if this shows up, you know, in the papers, just, just know that I said it on your podcast, Chris. But then there's the next layer of corruption that you and I know about of like private equity says hey, you know, I know we were selling these leads to these lawyers in all these different markets across the country, but we can generate more alpha, right? Like what if we fee share in the, in the cases themselves, right? And someone say oh you're not supposed to do that because they're, you're there in Arizona and you know, and you're in Texas or New York or Florida or wherever. And it's like there are ways, right?

[Chris Dreyer]

They'll bleed it out in the marketing consultant agreement. We've heard it. They did that in dental too. Yeah, Wild sticking on that Legion versus brand building. What's the core difference? Long term, short term? What's your thoughts on this?

[Michael Mogul]

Do you want to win small today or win big tomorrow? There's a place for both. Like if you're just getting started and you don't have any cases, invest in, you know, pay per click LSAs. There's a lot of firms, even larger firms that still do it. The challenge is, is that the cost of acquisition continues to rise and continuously more expensive. It used to be like thousand bucks soft tissue auto accident case like on demand. And now in some markets, particularly on the west coast, in California it's as high as like six, $8,000 a case. And you know, you look at that, you say, okay, well if that's what I'm paying to acquire a case, then what's really my margin on this case? And then I'm going to need a lot of them, right? Because the only way you can work is off volume. And then you just don't have a lot to reinvest back into the firm. It's not as profitable. And then just the cycle repeats and every year it gets more expensive. Like you know this, right? It's more expensive this year than it was last year, than it was five years ago. So it's a strategy that doesn't, I believe, have a lot of long term merit. As opposed to brand building is all about tomorrow, is all about the future. You ask any law firm in America, you say, hey, who do your best cases come from? And they'll say referral and word of mouth, right? And it's like, okay, well how does that happen, right? And it's because you have built a brand. Like people know of you, your clients, they stay top of mind like other lawyers. Like you're top of mind to them and you're just known in the community that way. So I look at lead generation or like buying leads as just demand capture. Like who, who in the market today is looking for a personal injury lawyer? Like personal injury Houston, let's bid for clicks. Because everybody else you're competing as, like Thomas J. Henry and like everybody else, right? And in the off chance that they click your ad, maybe you have a chance where they'll submit a form and maybe you'll get a lead and maybe that lead will turn into a case, right? As opposed to what about everybody else who may not need a lawyer today but may need one in the future? It's like a much larger market size and you don't have to compete against, you know, compete the same way that everybody else is competing. So if I'm a smaller firm, a mid sized firm, like whether I'm at seven figures or eight figures, honestly even nine, I look at it and say, look, I don't want to compete against John Morgan, right? Like John's gonna spend over $200 million in marketing, he's gonna outspend me every single time, right? So what do I do? And it's okay, I'm gonna focus on building brand. I've never once talked to someone who has invested years in building brand that looks back and says, I wish I would have started later or I wish I wouldn't have done that, right? Well, usually what happens is they'll say, look, our practice is a fucking mess and we do so many things wrong and it's just an absolute disaster. But the brand saves our ass all day long and we get cases. You know, we're doing 50 million this year because people know us.

[Chris Dreyer]

If I could ring the bell or shoot rockets for sound effects, I would, you know, because I thousand percent agree. It's like it opens you up to opportunities from a messaging perspective too, I think in a creativity perspective to stand out. You know, your direct response stuff is like first of all, when you're looking at Google Ads, you don't have a lot of copy in the ad. Like there's not imagery, right. And your direct response are all super punchy like call now, you know, get us now. And it's like you've got a limited window of time versus the brand. I think the one thing that I love about it is you can tell a story and you can. I think the key thing that I took from that is like you're not appealing to just the injured, you're appealing to the people that aren't injured. But then create an emotional tie and connection and, and know you with story, with, with emotion. So I agree wholeheartedly. And look, I see it, we're in the CRMs, you know, the people that are changing media that now they're, they're lsa, you know, in the early days, those low leads and Google Ads, but now everybody's jumping in there. Well now the cost to acquire is way higher. It just is.

[Michael Mogul]

And by the way, I'm not saying don't do those things. I would just say that there's a, there's a healthy split where when you're looking at your long term investment, like today we're probably like 80% brand much more focused on demand creation than demand capture. But early on I get it, the phone's got a ring, you've got to bring in cases. So maybe you do invest in like pay per click lsas those types of things. In the short term, the challenge is, is that the minute you stop spending is the minute those stop coming in, right. Like you literally disappear off the face of the earth. And that's a tough place to be because you don't know what the future cost will be.

[Chris Dreyer]

Wild. Mike, I got like a few final questions for you. One of them I'm going to pick. So I occasionally check into the old Gay Changing Attorney podcast. My Favorite are the AMAs, the Ask Michael Mogul anything and the one that I think you get a Lot of attention for is the. The habits, the rituals. Oh, yes, right.

[Michael Mogul]

Because.

[Chris Dreyer]

Because it's consistency over years, right? Day in, day out, consistency. What's a day in the life of Michael Mogul? Today you're texting me from the sauna. Give me the rituals, the habits.

[Michael Mogul]

Yeah. So I start the morning off in the most miserable way imaginable. And at five o'clock in the morning, I go outside and pitch darkness in my underwear and I get in a tub of freezing cold water. That was the cold plunge, right? I dread it every morning. That's the last thing you want to do. You just woke up and who wants to get in a tub of water? It's 37 degrees, right? And then you get out and like, okay, all right. I'm proud of myself. I did something hard and that's where I strap on a weighted vest. And I'm a professional walker now, Chris. So years ago, I had my health scare. I was averaging like 3,000 steps a day because I was just spending most of the day sitting. And my, like, my trainer said, hey, man, you should really push, try to get 10,000 steps a day. And I was like, all right, challenge accepted. I'm gonna go for 20,000 steps a day, right? Cause you said 10,000. Like, I can't do things in moderation. So I think, okay, how do I. How do I do this? Now, walking outside at 5 o' clock in the morning and pitch darkness is probably not the best idea. So I actually, I do it indoors. I've got like this, like this peloton tread. And then I realized, like a few days in, I was like, man, this is gonna be boring, man. I'm gonna be like, staring at a wall, like, walking five miles of the way to vest. So I got the standing desk attachment to this thing and I'm a. You know, I grew up playing video games, so I was like, you know what? Like, this can. This can make the time go by faster. And I can, you know, I could be like, just mentally stimulated doing this. So I'm playing these first person shooters, like Call of Duty in the morning, 5am Usually I try to get like five or six miles. And while I'm walking with this weighted vest and I'm playing against, I mean, who knows what at that time. It's like everyone across the world, a lot of it. It's like college kids and like high school kids. And I got super competitive with it, right? So I was like, all right, like, I'm gonna. I wanna get good here, right? Because I'm ancient by call of duty standard and certain my age, like 39 years old. Like most of these kids, you got.

[Chris Dreyer]

The mic, like got you sucker at.

[Michael Mogul]

7:00Am well, so that's what I was leaning towards. So like I got super competitive, man, and like I started like climbing up the ranked ladder and like the competitive play. And then like, you're gonna laugh, man. I got, got a coach, right? Like, like I was like, I got a business coach. Why wouldn't I have like, you know, if I want to get serious about this. And my wife would just be like, she's like, all right, whatever brings you joy. So this morning I'm playing and I got these squad mates, right? Like we only know each other from the Internet, right? Like they ask what I do and I say like, I'm an accountant, just so you know. They don't ask me any more questions about what I do. But we smash this team, like, just destroy them. Like it's like 4v4. And then I will go on, like, and I'll talk a little smack. And my smack talk goes like this. It's basically like, look, you guys just got slammed and they're like, put salt in the wound. Just want to let you know, I'm a 39 year old walking on a treadmill right now while I did this, right? So, and it's just like, they're like, what? Like, I think that's like a pattern interrupt. They just can't even believe like, what, you did this while walking on a treadmill. So I've fallen off a few times, but you know, you get used to it. So that, you know, that's how it begins. Then I'll get a workout in and then I wake up my kids, you know, get them ready for school, like take them to school. And then, you know, if there's time, I'll jump in front of, you know, jump in the sauna, right? Do a little like the, or like the red light panels, like red light therapy. And then it's to the office and from there it's, you know, the battle begins. Like every, every day is a new adventure. I talked to some people in the, in other businesses and they're like, man, I'm just, I'm just so bored. I got. I personally can't remember the last time I was bored. Like, that's Me neither. You don't know what the day will bring, right? And a lot of it right now is either recruiting or like working with our leaders or any sort of like training and coaching and development. That, that Sort of thing, right? Or like podcasts, like, you know, the thought leadership stuff. And then as you know, the day wraps up usually around like 6:30 or so. You know, come home, we got, put the kids to bed, you know, we do bedtime bath time, reading. That's a lot of fun. And we get done around like, let's say 7:30. And then, Chris, I have the golden hour, man. My wife And I, from 7:30 to about 8:30 maybe, right? We have an hour to ourselves and we will like, you know.

[Chris Dreyer]

Well, it's great.

[Michael Mogul]

Like right now we're watching Landman, right?

[Chris Dreyer]

Oh yeah, that first episode was killer.

[Michael Mogul]

It's fantastic. It's fantastic.

[Chris Dreyer]

That's the only one I've seen so far. No spoilers.

[Michael Mogul]

Listen, man, I'm the most boring human being. We go, we go upstairs, we go to bed, man, and I'm in bed by 9 o' clock, you know, and then start over again, right? Like it's not a, I wouldn't say it's like the most exciting life, you know, but people say, what's the secret to waking up at 5am and I say it's going to bed at 9pm Love it.

[Chris Dreyer]

So you've interviewed hundreds of leaders. Seth Godin, Pat Arnold, you've, you've interviewed Nick Saban. What's the piece of advice you've heard consistently that really sticks with you? Like that leaders have said leadership is hard.

[Michael Mogul]

Like I, I honestly in some ways, like I had this conversation with our leaders last week, you know, when we do our leadership meeting. And I said, I, I don't know why anyone wants to be a leader, right? Like, like want to be a leader like me. And they'd be like, what? Like, you know. And I said, well, it's because it's, it's one of the most like, thankless roles that you can be in. And it is just constant pain and suffering. Like it can be, right? Because you are solving all the problems and all the most difficult problems that find their way to you, right? Like essentially, if somebody else could have solved it wouldn't have made its way to you. And then a couple that, let's say your CEO, the problems you're solving are all the problems that all the leaders couldn't solve that find their way to you. So like every day you come in and it's like, what are the most painful, difficult problems imaginable? And now they're your problem. So that can wear you down over time in businesses. Like not a marathon, not a sprint. It's like a Marathon. Sprint. You're sprinting and you're sprinting for a marathon. So the advice that I've heard, that's been helpful to me, especially when you get down on yourself and you're dealing with a lot of adversity and you're just getting kicked in the nuts every day. You have these days where it's like five things in a row, right? And then it's the. You're like, okay, tomorrow's going to be a new day. And then you get kicked in. That's six times that day. You're like, all right, I'm going to keep going here, right? And it's just realizing that you can't be, like, depressed and sad and grateful at the same time. So if you ever find yourself in that state, I just start writing down things I'm grateful for, right? Like, I'm grateful for my kids. They're healthy. I'm grateful for our clients. I'm grateful for, like, the opportunity to be able to, like, dream big and, like, do big things. I'm grateful to be in the arena, right? And then just gets you out of that, like, mental space of man. Like, I'm such a. Like, I'm such a victim. Like, this sucks. This is going to sound immature and I got to send you this meme, but you can't spell millions without a couple Ls, you know, so you got to. You got to take those L's with you, man.

[Chris Dreyer]

Amazing. Amazing.

[Michael Mogul]

Mike.

[Chris Dreyer]

This has been so fun. Where can the audience go to connect with you? Learn more. Any. Anything you want to direct them to?

[Michael Mogul]

You can check out the. The podcast, the Changing Attorney podcast. Check. Let's check out your episode. Just go to legalpodcast.com or it's on, you know, like the. All the podcast places. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, etc, Crisp is Crisp Co. That's our website. And then I've got a page just Michael Mogul or my last name Mogul on all social media. M O G I L L if you go on Instagram, I just post photos of my kids and just lame stuff, right? Like just like dad jokes, things like that. Either like cute kids or absolute savagery.

[Chris Dreyer]

Most firms chase leads. The best firms build brand. Most hire to fill roles. The best hire visionaries. People so good you rebuild your business around them. And most stop when they're winning. Michael Mogul starts over. Because success isn't the goal. Unreasonable success is if you want a different outcome, you have to become someone different. And that begins the moment you get uncomfortable. I'm Chris Dreyer. This is personal injury mastermind.