334. The Hidden Leak Costing Your Law Firm Money and How to Fix It w/ Ben Leader

Summary

Personal Injury Mastermind Episode 334: "The Hidden Leak Costing Your Law Firm Money and How to Fix It" with Ben Leader

Release Date: June 19, 2025

In Episode 334 of Personal Injury Mastermind (PIM), host Chris Dreyer engages in an insightful conversation with Ben Leader, Managing Partner at Elrod Pope, to uncover and address the often-overlooked issues within law firm operations that hinder growth. This episode delves deep into identifying internal inefficiencies, optimizing intake processes, restructuring firm operations, and strategic expansion, providing actionable insights for personal injury attorneys aiming to elevate their practice.

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1. Introduction and Context

The episode begins with Ben Leader reflecting on his tenure at Elrod Pope, a firm with a storied 40-year history in Rock Hill, South Carolina. Despite believing they were signing all desired cases, Ben admits, “[00:38] Ben Leader: In our minds, we signed every case we wanted. But we could not have been further from the truth.” This realization sets the stage for a candid discussion on internal challenges that often go unnoticed in law firm growth.

2. Identifying the Hidden Leak in Their Law Firm

Chris Dreyer highlights a critical insight: “[00:43] Chris Dreyer: If you think your firm's biggest challenge is marketing, think again.” Contrary to common belief, Ben emphasizes that the primary issues lie within the firm’s intake processes.

“[01:08] Ben Leader: Intake Leak is costing you cases, revenue and opportunities.” This leak, as Ben describes, involves missed leads and inefficiencies in handling client intake, which directly impacts a firm's bottom line.

3. Actions Taken to Fix the Intake Problems

Recognizing the problem, Ben recounts the initial steps taken to diagnose the issue. “[04:39] Ben Leader: We tried to blame our SEO agency at the time for the lack of…” However, upon deeper investigation, it became clear that internal processes were at fault.

4. Optimization of the Intake Process and Tools Used

A pivotal moment in the conversation is when Ben details the overhaul of their intake system:

• Implementation of Lead Docket: “[05:27] Ben Leader: Lead docket is what we use, you know, was night and day in terms of just being able to continue to follow up and kind of chase prospects.”

• Adoption of Domo for Data Reporting: “[06:37] Ben Leader: We are in the process of building out a number of custom dashboards, but we do have an intake one that I'm obsessed with and spend far too much time, you know, staring at throughout the day.”

These tools enabled Elrod Pope to systematically track leads, measure ROI, and make data-driven decisions, transforming their intake from a chaotic process to a streamlined operation.

5. Building a Dedicated Intake Team

Transitioning to a dedicated intake team was a game-changer for the firm:

• Hiring an Intake Manager and Coordinator: “[11:39] Ben Leader: So we've got two full-time intake members now. We've got an intake manager and an intake coordinator.”

• Collaborating with Intake Consultants: Ben praises their intake consultant, “[09:45] Ben Leader: Yanni's awesome.” This collaboration ensured continuous optimization and accountability within the intake process.

6. Operational Changes: Moving to Pod-Based Structures

To handle increased caseloads efficiently, Ben describes the shift to a pod-based operational model:

• Formation of Specialized Pods: “[19:06] Ben Leader: It was pretty miserable meeting. The growth didn't necessitate us to shift to pods.” Pods allowed the firm to allocate cases based on attorney expertise, enhancing both client experience and case management.

• Maintaining Firm Unity: “[21:41] Ben Leader: We know exactly, you know, who's accountable for it.” This structure fostered accountability and minimized internal conflicts, ensuring cohesive operation despite growth.

7. Impact on Marketing and Referrals

Optimizing the intake process had a significant positive impact on marketing efforts:

• Increased Efficiency: “[13:33] Ben Leader: The intake department has made everybody's lives here a lot easier.” By handling client calls internally, the firm improved referral relationships and maximized the value from existing marketing spend.

• Enhanced Client Engagement: Persistent follow-ups, as Ben explains, “[16:26] Ben Leader: We are chasing aggressively.” This approach significantly reduced lead leakage and increased case sign-ups.

8. Specializations and Strategic Expansion into North Carolina

Expanding into North Carolina presented both opportunities and challenges:

• Strategic Focus on Car Accidents: “[26:29] Ben Leader: We've kind of been focusing on MVAs as part of that expansion plan.” This specialization helped navigate the stricter contributory negligence laws in North Carolina.

• Adapting to State-Specific Laws: “[25:35] Ben Leader: Contributory negligence, we do a lot of premises liability in South Carolina…” Understanding and adapting to differing legal landscapes was crucial for successful expansion.

9. Overcoming State-Specific Challenges: Contributory Negligence

North Carolina's contributory negligence rule poses significant hurdles:

• Impact on Case Viability: “[24:38] Chris Dreyer: Yeah. So you know, how, you know, the different markets…” This strict rule often nullifies claims where there is even minimal fault attributed to the plaintiff, making case acquisition more challenging.

• Strategic Case Selection: “[26:04] Ben Leader: …mainly just been focusing on MVAs as part of that expansion plan and referring most of the other stuff out.” By concentrating on areas less impacted by these laws, Elrod Pope effectively mitigated risks and maximized case acquisition.

10. Innovative Marketing Strategies and Local Engagement

Ben shares creative marketing ideas to enhance local presence:

• Engaging with Local Sports Fans: “[28:16] Ben Leader: We've actually got a billboard right next to the stadium at the Panthers in downtown Charlotte.” Leveraging local sports affiliations can boost brand visibility and connect with the community.

11. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

The episode wraps up with Ben Leader encouraging listeners to reach out for further insights:

“[29:20] Ben Leader: ...more than happy to share any insights I can.”

Chris Dreyer underscores the episode’s main message: optimizing internal processes, particularly intake, is paramount for law firm growth. “[29:51] Chris Dreyer: ...When your intake runs like a well-oiled machine, your marketing dollars go further and your firm's growth becomes unstoppable.”

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Notable Quotes

• Ben Leader:
  “[00:38] ...we signed every case we wanted. But we could not have been further from the truth.”
  “[04:39] ...intake department and really creating an intake department and getting that up and running has been single-handedly the, the most helpful thing to our growth and to our marketing.”
  “[16:26] ...we just, you know, we like to stay Stay on top of them...”

• Chris Dreyer:
  “[00:43] If you think your firm's biggest challenge is marketing, think again.”
  “[29:51] ...When your intake runs like a well-oiled machine, your marketing dollars go further and your firm's growth becomes unstoppable.”

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Final Thoughts

Episode 334 of Personal Injury Mastermind offers a compelling exploration of the internal challenges that can silently impede a law firm's growth. Ben Leader’s candid insights into eliminating intake leaks and restructuring operations provide a valuable blueprint for personal injury attorneys seeking sustainable expansion and enhanced efficiency. By prioritizing internal processes alongside external marketing strategies, law firms can unlock their full potential and achieve market leadership.

For more actionable strategies and expert discussions, subscribe to Personal Injury Mastermind, powered by Rankings.io, and stay ahead in the competitive landscape of personal injury law.

Transcript

[Kinsey]

Hey there future VIP. I'm Kinsey, your on site concierge for PEMCON. The Personal Injury Master Rhyme Conference, October 5th through the 8th. When you go VIP at PEMCON, you're getting the full experience, luxury accommodations included at the 5 star Phoenician Resort, $250 in resort credit for the spa, golf course or wherever your mood takes you, a private VIP dinner and exclusive access to the biggest names in personal injury. Grab your VIP tickets while you still can at PEMCON. That's P I M C L N. O R G. See you this fall in Scottsdale.

[Ben Leader]

In our minds, we signed every case we wanted. But we could not have been further from the truth.

[Chris Dreyer]

If you think your firm's biggest challenge is marketing, think again.

[Ben Leader]

We had been around for 40 years at this time. It kind of dawned on me that a lot was probably slipping through the cracks.

[Chris Dreyer]

The best marketing strategy in the world won't save a broken intake.

[Christian Dreyer]

Then leader managing partner at Elrod Pope.

[Chris Dreyer]

Will show you how to fix it.

[Christian Dreyer]

I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the relentless marketing marketing agency.

[Chris Dreyer]

Behind this podcast and hundreds of elite firms at the top.

[Christian Dreyer]

Intake Leak is costing you cases, revenue and opportunities. Ben shows us how to chase down every lead, own every case, and make your attorneys more productive.

[Ben Leader]

Cleaning up your intake department is probably the best thing you can do for your marketing department as well.

[Christian Dreyer]

This is Personal Injury Mastermind. Let's get into it.

[Ben Leader]

When I joined the firm, we had about 2012, 13 staff members, very partner heavy. We had eight attorneys and seven of us were partners when I was named partner. And we're down to four partners now. And we've got 38 staff members now. And our caseload since 2021 has has jumped from about 150 cases a year to hopefully signing 700 this year.

[Chris Dreyer]

So you started as an associate at Elrod Pope and now, you know, a decade later, you're the managing partners. Let's talk about some of the highlights.

[Ben Leader]

Were founded in 1980. We're in Rock Hill, South Carolina, which is a suburb of Charlotte, North Carolina. For several decades, our bread and butter was workers comp. A lot of attorney referrals from all over the state would send a lot of their comp practice to us. My path here is a little less traditional than a lot of folks. I'm 37 years old now and the firm is 45 years old. So managing a firm older than me, you know, I didn't build it from the ground up, but came into, you know, an Old machine that needed an oil change and some, some tune ups and you know, got it fired back up again and back on track. I joined the firm in 2014 and we were starting to see kind of a dip in comp and an increase in PI. And over the course of, I'd say the next eight, nine years, we basically saw those two practice areas completely flip, going from about 75% comp to now over 80% PI and have a little bit more structure in place and have gone through a lot of changes.

[Chris Dreyer]

Wow. We gotta talk about the cases. You know, you said around 150 cases now over 600 or your current. Like what were some of those levers that you pulled? I guess first, I know I want to talk a lot about sales, but like on the marketing side just to get them into the door first.

[Ben Leader]

Yeah. So most of our business came from attorney referrals. That was our bread and butter. And we started seeing somewhat of a decrease in that throughout 2016, 17, 18, that timeframe. Kind of started to have an alarm going off that, you know, we were getting less work from other law firms. And I think there was a number of factors for that. I think the growth of some of these national firms and national advertisers probably resulted in a lot of the smaller firms that used to send us work no longer getting those cases. We were also trying to grow ourselves and so we were expanding into new markets over the last few years in particular. And I think the firm that used to refer us cases may be a little less inclined to do that if we've got an office in their market. We saw a dip in signed cases coming from referrals. Knew we had to kind of pivot, you know, elsewhere. Oddly enough, really the surge for that first year of growth did not come from any real marketing spend or marketing increase. It, it came from us kind of looking internally and identifying some problems, particularly on, on the intake side of things. I'd say optimizing our intake department and really creating an intake department and getting that up and running has been single handedly the, the most helpful thing to our growth and to our marketing.

[Chris Dreyer]

I'm a marketer first, but I'm getting better on the intake side, at least from the legal perspective. And you know, I'm working with Vanessa Soto, working with some smart individuals and talking to individuals like yourselves. How did you identify the issue first and then what were some of the things that you did to kind of plug those leaks?

[Ben Leader]

Yeah, you'll probably get a kick out of this. I remember one of the first things we did was we tried to blame our SEO agency at the time for the lack of. Thanks for that, man, thanks for that. We called it meeting, and we were like, we're. We're not signing nearly as many cases. You know, we're. We're going the wrong direction. And they started pushing back and asking some questions. And we quickly realized the problem was an internal problem, it was not an external problem. And, you know, for a few weeks after that meeting, one of the account reps that we worked with would follow up with me and say, hey, I saw this lead come in. What. What happened with this one? And I found myself just scrambling around the office to try to figure out what is the status of this lead, who called them back, you know, where do things stand? And I was just making excuses, excuse after excuse, you know, to our vendor about why we weren't signing this case or what happened with this person or, you know, we're going to call this person back. And it. It kind of dawned on me that a lot was probably slipping through the cracks just because we did not have anybody that was really owning that process. We had, I think, eight attorneys, seven attorneys and, you know, eight or nine paralegals at the time. And the new clause would basically just get forwarded to whoever was available that day and, you know, happened to be sitting at their desk. And, you know, in our minds, we. We signed every case we wanted, but we could not have been further from the truth and reality. Once we started kind of looking at the data and actually tracking the data, we realized that there was a lot left hanging out there. And I think that the biggest part for us was we had been. We had been around for 40 years at this time, but we had no centralized system that we were using to kind of track our leads or to track our marketing spend and ROI and just getting the basic system in place. Lead docket is what we use, you know, was night and day in terms of just being able to continue to follow up and kind of chase prospects.

[Chris Dreyer]

I've got a lot of experience, A lot of our clients usually. Docket. Are you doing like, the. The extension with the domo to try to get some of the reporting side. Is. Is that how you're approaching the data?

[Ben Leader]

We are, yeah. We actually just rolled that out this year. The Periscope 2 Domo. I can't even keep up with what they call it now. But yeah, we've. We're in the process of building out a number of custom dashboards, but we do have an intake one that I'm obsessed with and spend far too much time, you know, staring at throughout the day. But you know, we really had no, no data compiled and so we didn't know what was working and what wasn't. And I like to think, you know, cleaning up your intake department is probably the best thing you can do for your marketing department as well. Because, you know, suddenly once you have that data, the, the decision making is a lot easier in terms of, you know, where to spend your money.

[Chris Dreyer]

And not only that, when you have somebody dedicated, you could start instead of just giving them the, here's the bar number, you can maybe direct them somewhere or, or even encourage them on the, on the treatment side to get the treatment started earlier. I guess the benefit of having the lawyers, that is one of the benefits. If it's going through the mix like you had in the past, they're going to touch on that. But I guess let's just take it really back to the beginning. You identified this issue, you know, the vendor, you know, pointed it out and then you, you saw, hey, we got a problem here. You know, what, what was the steps? It was it you. Do you hire a consultant? Did you, did you try to hire an intake person out of the gate? Like, how did you approach solving the issue?

[Ben Leader]

So the very first thing I did was I pulled up our LSA account, which was brand new at the time, and I started listening to some phone calls and I had never done that before. And it was probably the most painful task I've ever done today at the law firm. And I mean, sadly we had a 17 year employee that we had to let go after, you know, listening to a few minutes worth of phone calls. And it's just kind of one of those things you don't know what you don't know. And so I think kind of seeing how the client experience was coming into our firm and hearing it firsthand was, it was an eye opening experience for me. And I realized, you know, we got major problems, not just, you know, a minor issue we gotta fix. It was just kind of chaos. And you know, we have a phone call flowchart that I still have in my office from back in 2021. And it is the most confusing, convoluted mess you would ever see. I mean, there's different arrows for different days and different time windows of who's going to take what call and what practice area. I mean, it was like a, you know, an algebra equation for our receptionist to try to figure out where to route new calls to. So the first Thing we did was listen to the calls and that told me we need to spend some money, you know, cleaning this up. And we actually pivoted and withdrew from a major marketing campaign we had done the prior year that had, we had spent six figures on. And we basically reallocated those funds that it was not a successful campaign. It was pretty much a whiff into building an intake department. And so in late 2021, we hired an intake manager for the first time. We'd never had that role at our firm. We brought on lead docket at that time, and we also the following month hired an intake consulting company that had just started out and I had never even really heard of, you know, those existing prior to that. And we started working with legal intake pros is the name of them, and we're still working with them today.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yanni Smith.

[Ben Leader]

Yeah, Yanni's awesome. I mean, she has been so impactful to our business and is, you know, just so impressive to work with. And we still work with them today because they continue to, to bring value. And that gave me some, some expertise that I just simply did not have. I mean, they, they don't teach, you know, intake optimization in law school or even the thought of, you know, sales or intake being a part of our business.

[Chris Dreyer]

Thank you for the transparency. Jani's great. She's been on the show before. Certainly a pro when it comes to lead docket. Harlan Schillinger is another good one for the audience listening. You know that you don't know. What you don't know is that's, that's a frequent one from Harlan and, and you get what you ask for. You know, with your caseload, you know, 600 plus cases a year growing because you're getting, you know, now you can spend more to acquire it. Well, you can, you're. It's going to improve the effectiveness of your marketing. What's the staff, what's the team look like now? Right. You used to have to do the round robin thing to the lawyers. What's it look like now?

[Zach Cole]

You can have the best marketing, the best case results, but if your revenue engine is broken, your firm won't scale. That's the gap most law firm owners miss Under Oath. Powered by Rankings IO is the podcast to bridge the gap. Zach, Cole and Scott go deep into how high performing revenue teams win big. Quarter over quarter, week over week, and sale over sale. From intake to hiring leadership to tech. It's sharp, practical, and built for people who want to grow on purpose. Search under oath revenue and practice and hit subscribe on pim, we focus on building external success, marketing, growth strategies, the system to scale a firm. But there's another side of the story. What it takes on the inside to lead in law. That's what Law Her Powered by Rankings IO is all about. Hear from the boldest women in the legal world, how they navigate power and lead with purpose. If you want that kind of insight that makes you a better leader, not just a better operator, this one's for you. Search Law her wherever you get your podcast and hit subscribe, you won't regret it.

[Ben Leader]

So we've got two full time intake members now. We've got an intake manager and an intake coordinator. We also have our intake consultants that we rely on for a lot of the technical and back end side of the intake. And you know, I like to view Jani as is almost like a fractional intake director. She helps me hold our team accountable and make sure we're staying up to date on everything. And then we use an after hours call service that we switched to a new one a couple of years ago that was light years better than we had, you know, used before. And so from an intake standpoint, you know, we've got kind of two full time internal folks, but we also have a few pieces of the puzzle that we, you know, pull externally one of the biggest benefits to intake and we did get some pushback from the partners when we brought this on, you know, there was some concern that we really have enough work to, to keep an intake manager busy and we weren't sure we did. And then a year later we hired, you know, a second full time intake person. So there's plenty for them to do and usually more than, than most firms realize. But it's, it's taken so much off of the attorney's plates too. Whereas we would get disrupted, you know, at any point throughout the day when we were trying to, to do depot prep or you know, get ready for a hearing and, and have to go spend an hour and a half, you know, handling a new, new client call. And it was just disruptive. And now everything is streamlined through them on the front end. And a lot of times, you know, they're able to get cases signed up without even having to pull that attorney out. And the intake department has made everybody's lives here a lot easier. The attorneys in particular, the staff as well, they're not having to constantly deal with, with new client calls because it was really part, it was no one's job, but it was something everybody was kind of asked to do. But you know, I think if it was hard to fight the inherent bias, if you had something else going on, even as an attorney, there were times where I was inclined not to say sign a case just because I wanted to get back to my, my Depot Prep.

[Chris Dreyer]

I gotta imagine even, you know, the firms that used to send you leads, you know, and it still send leads and now you got an intake that's hooking those. So. So they're happier.

[Ben Leader]

That's right. And they get an email saying, you know, we've sent signed so many cases from them or referred so many cases versus asking us hey, what's going on with this? You know, is there, has this case been settled? Now they get, you know, automatic updates about that and makes us not have to worry about, you know, did we forget to send a referral fee or something like that. So it's, it's really, you know, helped bridge a number of gaps at the firm and allowed everybody to really kind of dive into their true roles and try to get better at that versus having to wear a bunch of different hats.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah, I love that. And the lawyers, I mean, they're the highest hourly rate too. So you know, keeping them on those, those cases that require the bar card. Right, yeah. And you know, you mentioned earlier and I gotta ask, it's just so you said, hey, we got a better after hours intake. You don't have to tell me which one was worse, but who are the one you're liking a little better that you're using now?

[Ben Leader]

So we use Intake Solutions of America now. Isa, I think they were formed from a law firm in North Carolina. Some of the folks involved with Crumley Roberts, I think started the group and so they understand what we do and they're somewhat local to us, which I love. They're in Greensboro, North Carolina, right up the road. And so they talk a lot like we do. They, they know the area like, you know, where we're at. And so, and they're able to, to sign cases which our previous company were basically just glorified message takers. And I can't tell you how many times during the middle of the day we've had an overflow issue here and a call has gotten routed to that intake service and I'll get an email saying, you know, please find the retained, you know, contract agreement, you know, attached. And that happens on the weekends. You know, wake up on Saturday morning and there's a signed retainer in the inbox, you know, waiting for us to get started. And so we didn't realize how many cases we were losing just by, you know, having phone capacity issues alone. And so that, you know, no intake, sir, call service, I think is going to be like, perfect. I think they've all got, you know, challenges. It's a very hard, you know, task that they've got. But we've been very pleased with isa. And compared to what I hear, you know, horror stories from a lot of other attorneys, you know, it's going very well.

[Chris Dreyer]

Well, that's great. That's great. And, you know, let's, let's talk too, about just one other component on the intake. And then I want to talk about, you know, operations and, and, and cases in your, your specialization and practice areas. You know, the chase component. Right. I think it even is labeled in lead docket as the chase. You know, so how are you approaching the chase? You know, I hear that after three days, it's like the conversion ability drops off significantly. You know, what's a chase look like? So what, I mean, for the audience, you know, somebody contacts your form for a form submission and you give them that call and they don't answer, like, then what?

[Ben Leader]

Right. And in the past, we would move on. We think that they would call us back if they needed help. That was kind of our mindset. We're professionals. We don't want to, you know, annoy somebody or pester them, and that's how we operated. And, you know, if somebody wants our help, they'll call us back. And I'm of the polar opposite end of the spectrum now. I mean, we are chasing aggressively. And I think in today's world, people are getting hit from so many angles. Angles and have so many distractions that you have to be persistent and you have to follow up. And our chase process actually lasts up to two weeks. You know, we have. And you're right, the initial, you know, really, that initial five minutes is kind of the critical window and especially the initial couple of hours. But, you know, we found that, you know, even if we hit somebody up two or three times a day for three days and get nothing and then wait a week and follow up again, sometimes they'll answer and they'll be in a much better position to move forward. It's. I, I think a lot of times it's not that they don't want our help. They've just got too many other things going on, and it's not enough of a priority for them to look back and, you know, dig us up and figure out who we were. And we just, you know, we like to stay Stay on top of them and obviously if they tell us, you know, please stop texting me, we will apologize and leave them alone. But that doesn't happen very often, surprisingly. And I expected it to a lot more when we rolled this out.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah, that's great. I think anyone listening? I mean those first three to four days are just critical. Especially that first, you know, the first engagement, obviously, you know, answering as quickly as possible and, and getting back to them. But you know, after three or four days it drops off. But like you said, you can still hook them within the couple weeks or even, you know, depending upon the type of case, even longer. Yeah, that's right.

[Ben Leader]

That's right. And you know, another thing is we used to schedule calls with attorneys and that that resulted in a lot of leakage as well that, you know, attorneys are very busy and trying to schedule a potential client that needs a rental car and has heard and needs advice, you know, two days later that they're going to find somebody else to help them. And yeah, we had so many no show clients my first few years here. And I now know that it was because we were scheduling appointments so far out from that initial contact that you know, they found somebody else to help them. And so having the intake team be able to, to pounce immediately and contact that person, get them signed up, get them into the system so that they stop shopping around has been a big.

[Chris Dreyer]

Part of it too. That's great. Amazing tips all around the board for the audience listening here. Let's move over the operations, the legal side. You hook the case, you signed it up, you know, you're getting them treatment. Like what's the delivery side, the operation side look like? You know, are you doing the pod setup that talks about in Fireproof and more. Tell me about the structure there because you guys have a ton of experience on that side.

[Ben Leader]

When I first started, there were no teams or pods. The pre lit team and the litigation team were kind of as a whole. And so we would sit through these painstaking, like four hour long meetings where we would go through every case in the firm and you know, half the people weren't involved in any of the, you know, the cases we were talking about. And so it was just, it was pretty miserable meeting. The growth didn't necessitate us to shift to pods. And it's, it's going very well so far I think. You know, we used to be kind of a very small group and tight knit, you know, one family and now we've got multiple pods that at times can seem like you know, multiple firms within a firm, you know, just based on how we operate. And so it's one of the hard parts of pods is kind of keeping the unity of, you know, the firm culture together as a whole and you know, making sure people are operating somewhat on a uniform, you know, standard procedure and not everybody kind of going rogue in their own direction. But the PODS has been really good for us and it's allowed kind of each of our attorneys to, to be able to develop their own teams and, and kind of, you know, specifics to them and allows us to kind of spread the new cases out to various pods. And we're, you know, I think we've done a good job of figuring out who is best at litigating our high value cases and you know, funneling those cases to that group and you know, having other pods that are really good at certain types of cases.

[Chris Dreyer]

Got it, got it. Let's be transparent too, right? You got the experience is going to get the A or the B case and maybe the, the, the D or whatever your criteria. Maybe, maybe goes to the, the newer pod.

[Ben Leader]

That's right. And I mean, we've learned a lot of this the hard way when you realize your, your associate is, you know, handling high value cases and doing a great job at it, but, you know, not necessarily us having enough oversight and how those cases are being allocated or distributed and you know, things we would have never had to worry about when we were signing, you know, two cases up a week. But when you, you know, hit 15, suddenly you gotta spread those out a lot more efficiently. Yeah, so I'm a big fan of the pods and you know, I think with a certain point of growth it's a good idea to shift to them. We had tried the assembly line model and I know a lot of firms have had a lot of success with that. I didn't like it just from a client experience. We had so many different people touching the file. The client honestly didn't know who their person was. You know, they didn't know who their paralegal was. And, and I also found that there was a lack of kind of accountability within the staff. It was a lot of finger pointing. And now with the cradle to grave, as I call it, you know, that person's gonna be responsible for whatever mistake is made or, you know, whatever good things happen. In that case, we know exactly, you know, who's accountable for it.

[Chris Dreyer]

I think you nailed it there. The good on the assembly line is you kind of put these people in a role where they just do the one thing and they specialize it, but the negative is you're passing the next person, the next person. So it has those silos of communication as opposed to, you know, here's a cross functional team that all kind of understands what's going on. So. Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more. I think it's different, you know, you know, if you're doing, you know, the volume you guys are doing, but it maybe, I guess if you're doing a really specialized slower volume, maybe, maybe that would be better suited. But, but yeah, I think the pod setup is, is at least from what I've heard. Right. I don't, I don't. Practice seems, seems to be the best fit.

[Ben Leader]

It's, it's been good for us and I think we plan to, to continue that moving forward. And we've changed. You know, we're constantly tweaking litigation pods, pre lit pods or you know, keeping both within and trying different things on that front. But I think it's going well overall.

[Chris Dreyer]

Great, great. Well, practice areas, any unique practice areas, any, any specializations that, and I know you know, those uses, superlatives that you're, that you're not supposed to say specializations but I could say, you know, what, what's your specializations but you know, practice area, South Carolina. What types of cases for the audience listening?

[Ben Leader]

Yeah, we handle all types of personal injury cases. Car accidents are really our, the bulk of our, our practice trucking accidents, car accidents. We do handle a fair number of wrongful death claims. We still are, you know, very involved in workers comp. And that's what's really led to a lot of our better, what I call third party cases have come from workers comp. We expanded into Charlotte, North Carolina back in October of last year. And so that was our first step across the state line formally. And I went to law school in North Carolina. We got a few attorneys that are licensed there, but we had never had a physical presence there. So now we're, we're in the kind of expansion mode and growth mode and trying to establish a foothold there. And you know, going from a suburb with less than 100,000 people to the Charlotte market with, you know, a million people, it's been a big step and you know, we still got an uphill climb ahead of us. But you know, our ultimate goal is to be able to handle all types of injury cases statewide across the Carolinas. And I think we, we try to be unique in the sense that we want to be a firm that can litigate the high Value cases, but also handle more of the run of the mill volume work where, you know, I don't like to view us as a mill by any means, and I don't like to view us as like a boutique litigation firm. I like to view us as more of a hybrid, you know, model of both that, you know, can litigate it and, you know, go toe to toe with the big, you know, defendants if we need to, but can also still help, you know, prior clients with, you know, a $5,000 case if we need to. And so we think moving forward, looking into the future, we've got to be flexible in terms of, you know, what type of value we can bring.

[Chris Dreyer]

I think that's great. I think that's great. And you know, the Carolinas, you know, there's a name for this and you're going to know this immediately, I guess, in North Carolina, if you're 1% at fault.

[Ben Leader]

Yeah. Contributory negligence.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah. So you know, how, you know, the different markets, you know, have you seen, you know, expanding out over in Charlotte, like the jurisdictions, how they play on case values and what, what's changed on that on that side?

[Ben Leader]

Yeah, I mean, it make that. That law alone makes a massive difference. The contributory negligence, we do a lot of premises liability in South Carolina. Slip and falls, tripping falls, and generally those are pretty high value cases, you know, depending on the extent of injuries. But South Carolina, you can be up to 50% at fall and still recover damages. And in North Carolina, if you're 1%, you get zero in most circumstances. And so it has taken most of the premises liability stuff off the table for us. Slip and fall in the grocery store. It's just hard to roll the dice on a jury not placing, you know, 1% at fault. I mean, I think pretty much in every scenario you can think of, you could make an argument that somebody was somehow 1%, you know, responsible.

[Chris Dreyer]

Would that be, you know, those premises, like you've got the slip and falls, but then you have the trip and falls, like maybe the, the building code violation kind of stuff. Would those be the types of cases you'd still go after in North Carolina?

[Ben Leader]

Yeah. And, you know, I know some firms have still had a lot of success on the premises stuff in North Carolina. And a lot of the firms that have been there for a long time, some of my friends even like contributory negligence because they said it keeps a lot of the national, you know, advertisers out in North Carolina.

[Chris Dreyer]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Leader]

Worried about the law. And so I think the lawyers that really know what they're doing in North Carolina and have been there for a while, have figured out how to navigate it. There's just a lot more risk involved, I think. And so for us, we've kind of started with less focus on what we know we can do, which is car accidents. And so we've kind of, you know, mainly just been focusing on, on MVAs as part of kind of that expansion plan and referring most of the other stuff out.

[Chris Dreyer]

Smart. I see different firms tackle the Carolinas and then they're different. Right. And I think that's a fun kind of talking point there.

[Ben Leader]

Yeah, we, we had debate because South Carolina is what I would say a pretty saturated market in terms of personal injury lawyers, especially down in the, the coast in the low country area. I mean, all the big players are there and you got a lot of local firms that are very established there too. And so we were looking at, you know, North Carolina was a great, you know, expansion opportunity, you know, demographically and population wise and the growth. But the were a lot harsher. But, you know, I'm hopeful that the association for justice there, they've made some progress this year on getting some of the, the tort reform kind of going the other direction. They've increased some of the minimum limits in North Carolina and got rid of a terrible offset rule. And so I think things are moving in a positive direction. And you know, my hope is that maybe one day they can get rid of that contrite rule. And I think there's only two or three states left in the country that still follow that kind of archaic doctrine.

[Chris Dreyer]

There's an advertising component that I've always wanted an attorney to try. And so you've got, you know, I'm a UNC Tar Heel fan, right. I've got the Jordan jersey with the autograph in the basement, you know, and your Vince Carter and stuff like that. I've always wanted a PI attorney. Take one of these billboards and like actually talk smack about the other team, right? So you pick the Tar Heels and you talk about Duke, you know, or you have fun with it, you know, that, you know, and just take that side here. And also like, I'm close to St. Louis and it's like, you know, there's a lot of Cubs fans here, but it's majority Cardinals. Like so could you, could you talk, you know, about the Cubs and be. And be the real local lawyer. I just, I wonder if there's something there or if it's, or if there's fear of, you know, maybe I'M missing out too much on that, the other side of that market. You know what I mean?

[Ben Leader]

Yeah. It's funny you say that. My law partner, Harold Staley has been pushing for us to do more of like a Clemson, South Carolina focus on a lot of our marketing stuff. And my wife actually went to UNC and my dad did as well. So I'm a Clemson Tiger, but still pull for the Tar Heels when we're not playing.

[Chris Dreyer]

There we go.

[Ben Leader]

We've actually got a billboard right next to the stadium at the Panthers in downtown Charlotte. And we've been toying with ideas of, you know, trying to do something similar to that. The hard part is, you know, for the Panthers, we probably better making fun of ourselves than we would be, you know, another fan base with the current state of the team. But we've toyed with, you know, some different things with that. But I think that's a great idea.

[Chris Dreyer]

Yeah. I mean, you've got all the craziness happening with the football program, Belichick and oh yeah, every season and there's all the time. I just thought, well, you know, you picked Atarios at least you might be in the news a little bit more, but that's right. Well, the good and the bad. But business has been amazing, you know, for audience listening. That has one of those cases in the Carolinas that wants to get in touch with you or talk, maybe talk shop with you about intake a little bit more, you know, how can they get in touch with you?

[Ben Leader]

Yeah, by all means. My email is bleaderlrodpope.com Feel free to find me on social media as well. Benleader esquire on Instagram, email me, text me, call me. More than happy to help anybody out in any way I can. I very much am an open book when it comes to, you know, what we're doing and I found that the more you know, I help others, the more I get in return and so appreciate the opportunity to chop it up with you and, you know, more than happy to share any insights I can.

[Christian Dreyer]

Your intake process might be the silent killer of growth and it's costing you more than any competitor algorithm ever will. Take a page from Ben's playbook, listen to your own calls, own every lead and invest in your intake team. When your intake runs like a well oiled machine, your marketing dollars go further and your firm's growth becomes unstoppable. I'm Christian Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO. Thanks for tuning in to Personal Injury Mastermind. If you got value from today's episode. Share it with a friend and make sure you're subscribed. Until next time, keep building smarter, faster.

[Chris Dreyer]

And on your own terms.