← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
340. The Trial Method Behind $90M Verdicts (With One Paralegal) w/ Eric Fong
00:31:48
Winning in Court Without Losing Your Life
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- [00:01]
Chris Dreyer
As the owner of a digital marketing agency, I see personal injury firms making strategic decisions without the right data every day. Look, I've worked with firms of every size and analyze what really works. Our team at Rankings will map out your entire competitive landscape, identify where cases are falling through the cracks, and show you exactly what moves will drive growth. Want to understand where your market opportunities really are without spending a dime? Visit Rankings IO Consultation today. Hey there future VIP I'm Kinsey, your on site concierge for PEMCON. The Personal Injury Mastermind Conference October 5th through the 8th when you go VIP at PEMCON, you're getting the full experience, luxury accommodations included at the 5 star Phoenician Resort, $250 in resort credit for the spa, golf course or wherever your mood takes you, a private VIP dinner and exclusive access to the biggest names in personal injury. Grab your VIP tickets while you still can@pimcon.org that's P I M C O N. O R G See you this fall in ScotTSD.
- [01:04]
Eric Fong
What's holding this profession back are the thoughts and the pressures that we put in the everyday grind.
- [01:12]
Chris Dreyer
Burnout is killing great trial lawyers and most don't even see it coming.
- [01:16]
Eric Fong
There's a compassion fatigue. We don't care about each other. But if you can be the person that does that and you can model it in a courtroom and you can have the characteristics and traits that people want and that they love it when they get it, you're going to be the epicenter of something beautiful.
- [01:36]
Chris Dreyer
Fong walks you through the mindset shift that led to a $91 million verdict and a life beyond the grind. 100 plus trials the largest verdict in Washington State history, and he does it solo. We break down how he frames the villain in court, why most lawyers miss the real story, and how taking a step back made him lethal. This is Personal Injury Mastermind. PIM is powered by Rankings IO I'm Chris Dreier Hit subscribe if you want more unfiltered conversations with elite trial lawyers. Let's go. You got a big, nice fat $91 million verdict, the largest in Washington's history in three days with 11 witnesses and a pre trial offer of just $25,000. So we got to talk about this. How does a pre trial offer go from 25k to literally $91 million? It's just wild.
- [02:26]
Eric Fong
Well, usually that will happen because the other side has radically misinterpreted, didn't understand, didn't appreciate the risk. There's an element of luck of Course, hard work and experience, skill. And then a defense that kind of walked into a trap or a strategy or did something that clearly blew up in their face. It was a jury trial. And I've got my thoughts on how it happened and what have you. And what I would say is, as a plaintiff's lawyer, I've come to learn, and this is common knowledge in our, in our profession, Right. That there's a. There's a compassion fatigue in the world, in our society, in America, we have stopped caring about each other. And that's a little cynical and maybe an overstatement, but to get 12 people to agree on something and to award compensation is a really hard task. And so what we've done is we've frame arguments to focus the story on the actions that got us here. Well, why are we here and we're not here? Because this person wants money and wanted this injury and is going to be glad to get some compensation, you know, that is equal to what was taken. Inevitably, we're almost here in the court of justice seeking truth and accountability because of what they did and are not willing to own up to it. And once you capture that frame and you start to identify the target, the villain who's at the top of the pyramid that's driving this insanity and are willing to bring people into court and commit perjury to pull off this task. Right. If you can pull that off, then you start to get meaningful verdicts. And so to all you plaintiff lawyers that are gearing up for your trial, man, you better be focusing your frame on the conduct that got us here. It's not that we can't talk about our humanity and what it means to live a healthy life and to revel in the joy of discovering who you are. Right. I mean, like, our health is all we got, and so we have to be able to tell that story. But that's not what's going to get you a good verdict. Because once you make that, the playing field character, you know, inconsistencies and trial are burden of proof and the cynicism that exists make that a really hard task, even when you have the perfect client in catastrophic loss. So there has to be a different twist on it.
- [05:04]
Chris Dreyer
I love that explanation. I also gotta, I gotta push you on the, you know, a little bit of luck and yeah, you know, you've set yourself up clearly to identify this. You've tried over a hundred cases, you know, so did. Was there any thing that a past trial helped you identify this, this area that you went down a similar Storyline, arc or creative that helped kind of frame this, that this tactic might work.
- [05:32]
Eric Fong
You know, so I'm super blessed. Okay. Jerry Spence, he created the trial at Lawyers College, the Jerry Spence method. I've been involved in that. I went in 2001. Right. So for 25, 24 years I'd been immersed in his brilliance. And then I got into kind of leadership and I've been an instructor there for decades. And through that, in him, I became really like a brother With Nick Rally. We've worked together and done cases. And Rick Friedman, a guy by the name of Paul Rivera, is a living legend. Like, these are some of my closest friends that Bill Barton, Joey Lowe, I could name some people that, you know, like, name drop, that share with me what makes them great. And so we have these discussions and I know what works for them and I know what I teach, you know, through decades of Jerry Spence, you know, concretizing this laser sharp method. And so to answer your question, you know, how was I able to pull this together? It really was decades of experience, of curiosity, decades of teaching, all of it coming together in this like, vortex of, you know, the jury trial. And it just fell into place, you know, and I'll tell you that, you know, after I gave my closing argument and I sat down in my car and I walked out, I. I had this urge to sob.
- [07:03]
Chris Dreyer
Wow.
- [07:04]
Eric Fong
Uncontrollable sob. So you go through these experiences. The jury trial is a, you know, we get physically sick afterwards. Like your body breaks down and you get sick. You get. Become bedridden when you do certain trials because we are willing to go to any length and distance that the human body can withstand. And then when it's done and you let yourself down, you get physically sick. I do, and it's not uncommon. I just got off the phone with one of the greatest trial lawyers ever. I'm not going to say his name because what have you, but he's sick right now, having just accomplished like this feat that isn't even imaginable because it takes that much to do what we do. Now, I'm not saying I get sick after every trial. I'm not saying every lawyer has ever gotten sick after a trial. I can just tell you it happens to me and it happens to someone that walks on water in this profession. And you never know how it's going to go because it's so random of what happens and there's so many things we cannot control.
- [08:01]
Chris Dreyer
Thank you for your transparency there. And you know, I've talked to Sean Clagett he's had some ailments in it, you know, his energy, it takes it out to him, you know, and there's a reason why you guys play at the level you do it because it, it takes a tremendous amount of focus and energy and it wears on the body, you know. You got Nick Raleigh, I've been to his place out of Big Sky. He has that to kind of decompress and he has to get away from everyone to build the energy back up.
- [08:26]
Eric Fong
I'll tell you, you know, first of all, Sean Clagett is near and dear to my heart. And I just, I think the absolute world of him and what you said is he's another guy. Right. That just absolutely commits everything he has to himself and to others. That the amazing thing about Sean is his generosity and his sharing. I will say that Nick is a different beast, man. This guy like thrives off of like, I can't, I don't know, I can't do what he does. Like he, he is in, he'll be in trial, walk into another trial, then in that trial, do another trial, come back and continue. There's no one on the planet who's done what that guy does. And his, like, just to the energy, the passion, the, the life that it gives him and his commitment to this, like, like it's otherworldly for him.
- [09:11]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah, no, I, I mean, you know, it's, it's interesting. You know, Sean Clagett, you know, Nick Raleigh, some of these other individuals who, I don't know, I'm sure. Phenomenal trial attorney. So you're surrounding yourself with, with people that speak your language and share your passion. And you've said, you know, I know my limits, my creativity is enhanced with others. So you know, what's kind of your process? Like how do, how do you get in this mindset to go, go to war, to expend all this energy and prepare for a trial?
- [09:39]
Eric Fong
Yeah, well, I'm a solo practitioner, so I'm probably not like most of the people you talk to at 1. Paralegal.
- [09:47]
Chris Dreyer
Yep.
- [09:47]
Eric Fong
And so as a result of that. Right. And just the decades I've been doing this and, and the, the reputation I've been able to develop. I don't do a lot of cases. And I can pick the cases that touch me in the heart and nothing will motivate me more than the tactics of the defense lawyers and the strategies of the industry to somehow perpetrate this fraud on the court. And so I'm doing a case right now that is, you know, going to start trial. We mediated this Friday and it starts trial next month. And I get a phone call from one of the witnesses who has been contacted and almost like threatened that my client's going to win if certain things happen or don't happen based on what he does. When I see firsthand the sophistication of the defense and the lengths that they go to circumvent justice. Right. That's what really, really gets me going and lights a fire under my ass that will drive me to no end. And there has to be some burning thing inside a person that is driving them to, to these lengths or I, or I think you're going to have a hard time consistently, you know, showing up.
- [11:07]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. Makes me think of the Jim Collins good to great the hedgehog concepts, the purpose, passion and profit. So it's got to have all three. Because even if you can make money, if there's no passion behind it, maybe you don't have to go forward through it.
- [11:21]
Eric Fong
Yeah.
- [11:21]
Chris Dreyer
And I was definitely wanting to touch on it. Like you have a high level solo practice, like a thriving solo practice. I think we might be coming back towards some of that. You know, there's all this consolidation occurrent and the PE companies are trying to buy everybody up and it's like, well, who's actually going to stand on their own and try cases and be an expert and be a specialist. Tell me why you've decided to stay a solo practice with clearly the resources and the connections to build. Yeah, you know, a different practice.
- [11:54]
Eric Fong
You know, that's, I mean that's a, that's, that's a really like fun thing for me to think about in my life because there's this guy by the name of Tracy Guns. I grew up in the 80s. Guns N Roses came from my town and big Guns N Roses fan and Tracy Guns, it's like one of the greatest rock and roll guitarists. But he quit Guns N Roses to form LA Guns, Louisiana. Guns, kind of had some decent success but you know, Appetite for Destruction and what Guns N Roses has done is like a whole nother level of whatever you want to call it. And I think about what it would be like for him to have quit that band and watch them do what they do to be in this kind of mid level mediocrity place. And the reason why I say that is because early in my career both Rick Friedman and Nick Rally offered up for me to join up with them. Try their cases, try them with them, whatever, you know, like, like, like they saw something in me that they were Willing to like, hey, let's do this. And I didn't take it up. I wasn't ready. I knew I would fail. I had my own personal internal struggles that were really sucking the life out of me. And it. It's another kind of piece of my history, which is addiction, divorce, depression, sorrow. And so I knew I couldn't do that. And so those opportunities and others too, by the way, came and went. And I really struggled with that. I'm like, I. I would look like. Like, who in the hell wouldn't take that opportunity and be like, I'm in. Well, I'm the right. And. And that was in and of itself like a trauma or a. The pieces of your life shattered, and you're like, what is wrong with you, man? Like, you. You don't look opportunity in the eye and turn your back to it. And so I struggled with that a lot, and it cursed me, and it plagued my thoughts. And as a result, I partnered up in a large firm, national practice, and I hated it. It just wasn't me, you know, like, just. There's so many moving parts. The overhead of these mega firms. It's like, I don't get it, man. That's not like. Like, for me, I'm too simple. I don't like the business part of it. I don't like all these complicated relationships that you got to manage because there's always problems, the headaches that go with it. I just need a simple stuff. I'd rather be in a mountain field looking at flowers and staring at clouds and saying, oh, shit, look at that. That's a sheep. Then really going all in on this practice of law, like, there's a balance to me. I can't be all in on work. And that will prevent me from being, whatever you want to say, like, the greatest ever or great, great, great. But my God, you know, like, how much do we have to be for ourselves to satisfy what we want others to see in us? So I'd rather be happy. I'd rather have a life outside of the practice. And the only way at this point, and I'm now 29 years into the practice of law, the only way I can do that is. Is to just do a few cases that I can personally do every part by myself with one trusted person that has my back and I have theirs. And I love it.
- [14:59]
Chris Dreyer
I like hearing the openness. And, you know, you mentioned. Definitely want to touch on some things, you know, your teaching, your writing, your flower farm, your retreats. Let's speak to some of that and then let's I want to jump in and really talk about your the education component that you're giving back. But tell me about some of these things that mean to you, like expand. I'll let you. I'll give you the kind of the time here. And yeah. Even up is excited to announce their latest solution. AI Playbooks Drive proactive case decisions with AI Playbooks by automatically flagging critical information across every case file, from intake to resolution. Even up is pioneering AI solutions tailored to help personal injury law firms save time, resolve cases faster, and consistently settle for more. Backed by $235 million in funding, they support over a thousand firms nationwide, from solo practitioners to leading PI firms in the country. Learn more today@evenuplaw.com as the owner of a digital marketing agency, I see personal injury firms making strategic decisions without the right data every day. Look, I've worked with firms of every size and analyze what really works. Our team at Rankings will map out your entire competitive landscape, identify where cases are falling through the cracks, and show you exactly what moves will drive growth. Want to understand where your market opportunities really are without spending a dimension? Visit Rankings IO Consultation today.
- [16:22]
Eric Fong
Thank you for asking that question because that to me is one of my identity's purpose is to share with other lawyers what they can do to get the most out of life. And I want to give a plug right now. I do a program every year at my house. I don't. I just put it out on Facebook once and it fills up. I just did it this, this yesterday, September 24th through the 28th at my house. I'm going to be putting on a program where it's geared towards all the things that we're talking about. It's going to be heavy on trial skills and strategy. But bigger, the bigger part of it is how do you do that stuff and maintain a life that allows you to get the inner genius in yourself out? Because what's holding this profession back is are the thoughts and the pressures that we put in the everyday grind. Creativity does not thrive in that environment. Creativity thrives when you're not thinking about stuff. When you're sitting at the beach, relaxing, when you're asleep, dreaming and you're at rest. Right. We're not at rest. You have to make it a priority to, to get to a place of rest. And so I've got this program that will hopefully retool people's priorities while allowing them to go on a journey of exercises I've developed over decades with brilliant minds that we slowly allow people to find their voice to go from that, the chatter in your head and the agenda that you create of what you have to say to a heartfelt emote. And so I can teach that, you know, like I. I can teach it. And so, you know, I'll be teaching the Jerry Spence method here, you know, this summer. Generosity and sharing and giving away is the key to life. If you want money, give it away. If you have knowledge, that's a responsibility to share it with the world. And what I have found is that in my sharing this stuff, I get cases, I learn. You know, in teaching it, you become a better student because as you have to explain it, you further go deeper inward to understanding the real depth of this message. The stuff that we talk about today, trial lawyers have been talking about. Molavine was talking about it, you know, 50, 60 years ago, thousands of years ago, these same principles were what the philosophers were espousing. So how is it that the knowledge has been around forever, but very few people are capturing it and doing something with it? Right? Because it's surface level knowledge, and people are running around not appreciating the depth of it. And the only way you get to the deeper place is, frankly, is disconnecting from the madness so that you can really allow it to marinate inside of you. And so teaching is like mentoring, sharing, Giving away is my secret to success.
- [19:16]
Chris Dreyer
Super powerful. Immediately. I can't help but think about myself when you're saying that, right? I feel like problem sleeping. Cause the brain's working. But it seems like every time I go on a trip and you're in the airplane and there's nobody allowed to talk, it's like, boom, I get all these ideas.
- [19:36]
Eric Fong
We know bright wavelengths, right? There's different wavelengths. And we know which ones are identified with creativity and stuff and which ones make it harder and stuff. And it's so. It's. We know this stuff, but we are. We are a slave to the grind, man. We. We don't know how to pull ourselves out of it. And there's so much pressure to succeed. Like, that's a curse, right? Is like everyone's. I measure myself against what Sean's doing and. And Johnny down the street from me here in Port Orchard is measuring, you know, herself against what I'm doing. And no one's just like, okay with this is me. And I'm like, really happy with what I'm doing.
- [20:12]
Chris Dreyer
Is the retreat you're talking about? Is that the woods and water retreat?
- [20:15]
Eric Fong
Yeah.
- [20:16]
Chris Dreyer
Amazing. So. So tell me, tell me a little bit More about that. I've done different masterminds and retreats. I just, I just got back from one with some really talented attorneys in Tahoe and Lake Tahoe. Beautiful out there and kind of it's structured. We had the round table, but like yours, how do you structure it? How do you build that environment that. That works for you?
- [20:38]
Eric Fong
Right. Well, I think the focus of it has to be like, let's just relax and leave everything behind. Like, there's a warmup process to get people acclimated to the present and leaving behind what they're bringing. Because the past is always filtering in to our thoughts. Right now we want to stop that. We want to put a dam up and stop, you know, whatever you're bringing here. We want to leave that away so that we can just relax into this beautiful setting so that we can learn deeper. You know, I keep saying that word, deeper knowledge, deeper understanding. And so I just so happen to live on. I don't know, it's like 25 acres on the Puget Sound, like old growth forest, ferns. And we have this flower garden that, you know, it's amazing. My wife just loves flowers. And so we've got this garden, you know, inside God's garden or, you know, the Pacific Northwest. We'll really use that as a tool to help people decompress, disassociate from their lives and just come to a place where it's comfortable. And you're encouraged to do stupid things and take risks just to access a part of you that we aren't willing to always show others. And, you know, in the past, I brought in Psychodramatus, which is what the Spence Method is based on. It's a really great tool that we can use in court to make it entertaining and dramatic and powerful storytelling process. Unbelievable. Unbelievable process. I brought in a guy by the name of Michael Mead that is a world class legendary storyteller, but one of the most brilliant minds, philosophers that you could ever imagine that taps into human truths that, you know, we can use to inspire us. Joshua Carton is a guy that means so much to me, is an expert on communication and, you know, he's a Hollywood, Broadway, you know, screenwriter guy that brings a really unique talent set, but now works with lawyers to allow us when we, you know, get up and have to, you know, like oritate or give a. Give a speech. Right? That's what we do. We're public speakers. It's terrifying. Like, how do we do that in a way that's compelling and authentic and captures the heart? So that you know, like we're singing to the jury, we're not reciting facts. And so, you know, your question is really hard because I get that, I get asked that question all along, like, well, what are you doing? And I really don't know how to explain it other than I don't think there's anyone doing what, what we are doing at my house that even comes close to give a space where people can let their guard down, be willing to look stupid and in fact want to look stupid, or go and do things that are uncomfortable for the sole purpose of being a better trial lawyer with badass trial skills techniques. So four days is kind of a long program in the world of lawyer training. It's nothing compared to the Jerry Spence method, which is 21 days. Right. Because you need deep immersion to let go of what we think we know and be open to receiving a new message.
- [23:58]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. I'd imagine that maybe some of those insecurities, the questions that people want to ask, maybe they wouldn't feel comfortable asking until they are that deep immersion, that connection with everyone, too. You've taught trial Lawyer College for 17 years. You studied the Spence for 23, over a hundred trials for your style of practice and how you're living. Right. Is the education right? You said you want more money, give away more money is the hey, I'm teaching. And that's how I've received these cases that meet my selection criteria. Is that the main method that you've done, your business development? Look, I, most of the time I get on here, we're talking about Google Ads or TV advertising or the latest this and that, but, but is that how you've just given back and then it's been a referral scenario?
- [24:46]
Eric Fong
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I would say the half. So everything for me is word of mouth. My, my website is not optimized. I've made it myself on wix. Like that tells you how much I care. I don't want cases. Now, don't get me wrong, you know, of course I want cases. Right. But I'm not out there trying to develop cases. The less you spend, the less you have to make. Big, big lesson, so simple. The less money you spend, the less you have to make. Simplify, simplify, simplify your life, live within your means. A huge way that I get cases is teaching. But I would say it's maybe half. The other half is just, you know, you've been doing this for 29 years and you've, you, you've done some, you know, landmark cases over a Long period of time, you just, you establish a reputation, people trust you, you work with lawyers and you get great results and they want to keep working with you.
- [25:43]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah, that. I think, you know, the, the Einstein, you know, the eighth one of the world, the, the compounding quote, whatever his phrase is. But like, I think a lot of times people equate that to finance and those types of things. But I think there's a relationship, equity, a relationships compound. Right. It's this person you meet who connects to this person.
- [26:03]
Eric Fong
Absolutely. And it's who you are. So the way we treat other people is who we are at a core. And the way you value other people. All we want as humans is to feel safe and to have someone understand us. That's it. It's that simple. Right? If that's what humans need, then that's what we should be giving each other. And when you can give that, you get it back. And if you want to be safe, be safe to be around. If you want to be listened to and understand, listen to other people and understand them. Right? This is the universal reciprocity that is just guaranteed to happen. And so for whatever reason, you know, I, I've just been considerate of other people and I. And I am sensitive to other people's needs. And as a result of that, right. I've been blessed because my life, I get. I get. People become sensitive to me, and so I get breaks where other people are always in fights and they don't know why. Like, there's conflict surrounding a lot of people. It's because they're. It's because everything they see is a conflict. There's a degree shift that needs to happen in our view of life. Right. That needs to happen. If we're surrounded by conflict, it's because you're putting it out there. And incompetence doesn't recognize itself. So the people who are doing this stuff, they don't even know it. They can't even see it. It's everyone else's fault. Right? But. But instead of the inward, honest assessment, like, wait, maybe. Maybe I'm doing something, I gotta share this.
- [27:32]
Chris Dreyer
There's this clip on the TV show Justified. I don't know if you've seen it.
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Eric Fong
I have not.
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Chris Dreyer
He's got this villain is criminal in the background in his back seat, and his criminals complain about this person, this person. And he's like, you ever heard the saying that, you know, this person is an. This person's an. But you're the. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's not, it's you. Yes. Right. It's not everyone else.
- [27:57]
Eric Fong
Yep. In, in, in, in. That person sitting in the backseat will give the advice and say that, you know, I mean like is they, they're the authority on this stuff and they don't even realize that they're the offender of it. Yeah, man. You know, like our society, for whatever reason has led us down a path where authenticity and the ability to be yourself and to show that to others and to understand others has not thrived. There's been a failure to thrive in our ability. And this is how we started the conversation. Remember I said we, we've. There's a compassion fatigue. We don't care about each other. But if you can be the person that does that and you can model it in a courtroom and you can, you can have the characteristics and traits that people want and that they love it when they get it, you're going to be the epicenter of something beautiful. And so you can't turn that on and off. You can't just walk into court and be someone who you aren't to try and pull a quick one off. And that's why, you know, people listening have to go to the Jerry Spence method, the ranch. They, they should make an effort to come to my program. They should make an effort to do something non legal training. I've got a guru, I've gone on spiritual journeys, you know what I mean, that are totally disconnected from the practice of law so that I can go into myself and understand why I am who I am.
- [29:19]
Chris Dreyer
I think that's what everybody's kind of searching for, you know, the, the man search for meaning. The Viktor Frankl, the, the purpose.
- [29:27]
Eric Fong
It's our, it's the meaning of life. Right Victor? That, that book is if you read one book in your life, that's it.
- [29:35]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. Incredible book. Oh Eric, this is amazing conversation. I really enjoyed it. For audience listening that want to learn more about you, that want to hear more about the retreat or just connect with you. Where, where can they go to learn more?
- [29:49]
Eric Fong
You know, you can just email me ericfonglaw.com call me, text me 360-621-9557 make a nuisance of yourself and just pester people who are willing to help you.
- [30:03]
Chris Dreyer
Subscribe for more deep dives with the top minds of personal injury law. If this hit home, share it with someone who needs it. I'm Chris Dreyer, this is pim. Until next time, Keep mastering the craft. I'm.