← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
343. 3 Rules for Building a $100M Personal Injury Trial Firm w/ Brett Turnbull
00:32:11
Inside the System That Powers One of the Nation’s Leading Personal Injury Practices
Loading summary
Transcript55 lines
- [00:00]
Chris Dreyer
Hey there, future VIP.
- [00:01]
Brett Turnbull
I'm Kinsey, your on site concierge for PEMCON. The Personal Injury Master Rhyme Conference, October 5th through the 8th. When you go VIP at PEMCON, you're.
- [00:12]
Chris Dreyer
Getting the full experience.
- [00:14]
Brett Turnbull
Luxury accommodations included at the five star Phoenician resort. $250 in resort credit for the spa, golf course, or wherever your mood takes you. A private VIP dinner and exclusive access to the biggest names in personal injury. Grab your VIP tickets while you still can at pemcon. That's P I M C O n dot O R G. See you this fall in Scottsdale.
- [00:42]
Chris Dreyer
Most firms treat trial as a backup plan.
- [00:44]
Brett Turnbull
I've lost more trials than most people have ever tried, and I'm not ashamed of it.
- [00:48]
Chris Dreyer
Trial is the plan for Brett Turnbull, and he built a national reputation because of it.
- [00:52]
Brett Turnbull
A case is worth what a jury's willing to return.
- [00:55]
Chris Dreyer
Welcome to personal injury mastermind. PIM is powered by Rankings IO, the marketing agency you call when you want more cases. Today we discuss how top trial firms make a profit on the national stage, land better cases, and train teams that don't flinch when it's time to perform.
- [01:10]
Brett Turnbull
I've won excellent legal services for every single client. We have, or we shouldn't take the case.
- [01:15]
Chris Dreyer
I'm Chris Dreyer. Let's get into it. Hey, guys. I'm really excited. I got Brett Turnbull on the show today. Brett, welcome to the show.
- [01:22]
Brett Turnbull
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
- [01:23]
Chris Dreyer
Chris, you know, your reputation as one of the best trial lawyers in the nation precedes you. You know, I like to kind of start off with the wins. So, you know, what's happened in your world, start out on a good front.
- [01:37]
Brett Turnbull
Oh, you know, I appreciate you saying that first off, obviously, dear friends. So I, I do appreciate it now, working hard. We've, we've had an interesting last year in the sense that we've had some litigations that went all the way, went kind of all the way down into the end of it and have some trials coming up that we're excited about. But most importantly, we've been doing a lot of, doing a lot of mock trials and kind of systematically approaching how we do our cases, especially later on in the case, I think has been something that we've really worked hard at and it's been a lot of fun. A lot of jury studies, a lot of focus groups, a lot of jury research, trying to continue to sharpen the, sharpen the tools and, you know, make sure that we're ready so that when the, when your number's called. You got something going.
- [02:15]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah, that's awesome. And I think you've. You've taken more than 70 jury trials.
- [02:20]
Brett Turnbull
The verdict, we were talking about it the other day, it's that things have changed somewhat. Mad mals and car wrecks tend to be the two things that go to trial most often in the PI world, just in terms of volume. And some states obviously have more trials than others. But I would say that early on I had. I had my fair share of product liability cases and things that went to trial. And you just see less of it now than we used to. Maybe that's because there are less of them out there. Maybe products are a little safer than they used to be. But also I feel like everyone's got a little smarter at trying to analyze what juries are going to do and then, you know, potentially more cases settle. But yeah, tried a lot of cases and enjoy it very much. And I just really encourage people who have the want to. For that, that it's not a complete substitute. It's not a. It's not exactly the same thing. But in order to sharpen the tools and be prepared, not have to basically make your clients guinea pigs to definitely work hard on your trial skills while nobody's looking. And also, you know, a great way to do that also is focus groups and mock trials and things that get you up on your feet.
- [03:16]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. And that. That's incredible. Out of the gate. One question to kind of set up the. The marketing side. You know, what are the firms leaving on the table that just don't litigate, that they're just not taking it all the way to the final hour?
- [03:30]
Brett Turnbull
What I always say is that people act as though once you do those things, people treat you differently from the outside, meaning mainly insurance companies and big companies. And that's true. But what happens to you as a. As a lawyer, as a person who is. You become so comfortable with the notion that if it comes to that, that you're going to be prepared, you're ready. Frankly, oftentimes you're actually kind of excited about the fact that they screwed the evaluation up and you get a chance to try the case. And the only way to really get to that point is to be in a position where you've done it enough, practice enough. I don't think that a lot of these firms that, you know, choose not to try cases or. Or it's not really a focal point. I don't think it's necessarily laziness. It's really just a function of maybe a Little bit of fear of the unknown. Right. A little bit of an outside the box, outside their norm. And it does take some work to kind of get prepared for that outside when, you know, again, when nobody's looking. And I think that that's the tough part. So it's not really even just the way the outside world sees you. To me, it's kind of what you know that you have in there. And you're confident enough to know that.
- [04:26]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah.
- [04:26]
Brett Turnbull
Because at the end of the day, a jury decides the case. And when I say that, I mean, it's like a house or any other thing. A case is worth what a jury's willing to return. Ultimately. That's the truth.
- [04:36]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah, that. And that's fair. That's fair. And I like being prepared because they may not give you the number, then you're prepared to take it to the end if you have to, too, and not scram them.
- [04:46]
Brett Turnbull
Yeah. I mean, the part that I realize is tough because you have a lot of cases that are never going to go to trial, probably going to settle. Right. But if you wait until you have something on deck, it's almost impossible to download all the things that you need to be able to figure out and learn and understand to be prepared for a trial. And so, and not even just a trial, but also just the evaluation. It helps you evaluate cases, it helps you on all those things because you can actually kind of see what the movie looks like down the road to make better decisions.
- [05:12]
Chris Dreyer
Let's talk about getting those cases. Just briefly. You have mentioned, you know, you're developing a brand, you've got a great reputation, so you're getting the referrals, like just what's your thoughts kind of in the current state and getting the cases in.
- [05:25]
Brett Turnbull
So I've always categorized it in three pieces when I think of marketing. You know, I was thinking from a business perspective. There are three bubbles in any business in my mind, and that's money marketing and operations. And by marketing, I just mean acquisition of whatever it is that you're looking to have. Right. That that is your stock and trade money, meaning the money that you need in order to get the things that you need to work on. And then, of course, to get it to the finish line, and then operations. And in law, there's legal operations, which is the professional side, similar to, you know, a doctor or a surgeon has the professional, but they also have to run their practice. So then I call that the firm operations. So money marketing operations. In terms of the marketing bubble, the three things that I think of in categorical terms is lawyer referrals, non lawyer referrals, and paid marketing. And I realized that these days a lot of people, a lot of firms sort of settle in on one of those categories and really ride hard on it. And there's something to be said for that. We're obviously heavier on referrals. Attorney referrals is obviously our heaviest place. But I try my best to make sure that we at least still know kind of what's going on with the paid marketing a little bit. Because I think that, you know, sometimes it's good to have your finger in a little bit more and kind of keep your wits about you, if you will, in different areas of. Of it. So those are the three categories that I think of. And by non lawyer referrals, I mean, I'm even talking about family, friends. It's really more an organizational approach where people are, are held responsible and they're required to be use some of their time. Right. To try to make sure that everyone knows what we do and what we stand for. So that even if it's whether it's person you knew from childhood, whatever the case may be, that those things come about that you're the person that they think of. So non lawyer referrals, obviously that's. I'm not specifically talking about Arizona or some of the things that we see out there. I now consider those to sort of fit into the referral side where, you know, there's a percentage that would be potentially paid. So nonlinear referrals is really more of those type of things.
- [07:17]
Chris Dreyer
Got it, got it. Yeah. So I guess let's just, you know, maybe we can go a little deeper on each of those. Like how are you intentional about developing each of those. Those three.
- [07:26]
Brett Turnbull
So I'm an outline person. It's how I learn. I'm a words and outline. And how it's organized in my brain is, has, you know, I know some people that maybe that's not how they learn or how they remember things. So I really, from an intentional perspective, those. That's why you hear me talk about three categories. Right. You can picture the outline now. That's A, B and C. Yeah. So with, you know, with lawyer referrals, there's a lot of subcategories of that and there's, you know, of course, what I always say is who are we trying to get to? And I really should say these days I think of it like what type of cases? And then who has them? But who are we trying to get to? How do we reach them? And then how do we close it? And so those three things fit under each of those three categories. Lawyer referrals, non lawyer referrals, and paid marketing. And so it's just my categorical way of being intentional is to sort of, this is what I have come to after number of years of giving it thought and implementing it. And then from there it's really just getting smarter and smarter and smarter. And I say smarter, but getting more and more experienced on realizing what type of cases you're looking to get and who has that ability to be a person or a company or whatever it might be that has the best ability to do that to get to them. And that's obviously, as I always say, the sort of, the next thing is, you know, looking for projects that are, have the highest upside, you know, hopefully the lowest risk, hopefully the shortest timeline. That's really, from a business perspective, what you try to do. Those are never all three very often, but at least being intentional about each piece of those is something that I'm very passionate about. And when it comes to who are we trying to get to? I used to just say, well, PI cases. Well, it's really more specific than that, isn't it? I mean, it depends on what type of case, what state, because obviously we're in multiple states. But even if you're in one state, the different communities, right, the different. It's. There's lawyers, non lawyers and paid marketing in those communities. So like from your perspective and being a great, being a great marketing mind that you are, I might say, okay, we're trying to go to this place, how do we do it? And you'll come back and have a list of those things yourself, right? So it's the same thing with lawyer referrals, you know, where all. Can I meet people that might have what the things that we're looking for? And I've even gotten to the point now where I even focus in and tell myself, how do I lily pad. In other words, there might even be people out there or companies out there who I'm not afraid to go ask them anymore. Hey, you know, I'm a customer. Is there a way that I could possibly talk to some other people in your world about these cases and possibly doing something that we can collaborate on those, you know, and it might be that the person who I'm talking to is not the person who has the cases, but they know the people who do. So there's a whole lot of different intentional ways that we try to map who we're trying to reach and what, and what type of cases, how we get to em and how we close it.
- [10:01]
Chris Dreyer
That's so different. It's being intentional and structuring it like that. Thinking about a different. You know, and I know we briefly talked about this on Legion. I think, you know, a lot of people think it's taboo, but I think there's a place, I talked to James yesterday about it. I think there's a place for all of it. Right. Like, why wouldn't you take a case that's good that someone else acquired? And, and I also think that because you litigate, I think it's an advantage, you know, maybe you can pay more to acquire the case because you can generate more value from it. You know, what's your thoughts on general on that space? Because it's a little taboo to talk about in general for most people.
- [10:38]
Brett Turnbull
Yeah. You know, it's interesting that you say that because I guess maybe I'm sort of like. Right. Of the generation, if you will, sort of on the beginning of the real Internet push and Internet marketing push in our practice, you know, and so 46. So like, I mean, I just think about. It changed things so much. It leveled the playing field. Right. I mean, the biggest two or three brands in every market were so dominant. They still are. And I. And they deserve that. They've earned that. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But you know, digital did level the playing field a lot in a lot of ways, you know, and frankly, access to capital, which is a whole different conversation. But, you know, that also has leveled the playing field for lawyers to be able to pay for their own case costs and things, when in the past there might have only been five firms in the whole town who could afford to work on those cases. You know, and it, it was sort of a barrier to entry that was created by those, those specific parameters. But specifically speaking, I don't really think it's taboo personally to market on the Internet. It's no different than any other business where you're really talking about cost of acquisition. The only two numbers that really I think of all the time is cost of acquisition and then average, you know, what's the average fee? And I have to ask myself whether those things make sense. And you're right. You know, if you're getting 100% of the fee and it's not referred to you, then obviously the numbers dynamics change. And if you're getting it referred to you, then obviously you're going to have to pay a referral fee. And it's just a Different math equation. So I really don't care for. I don't think there's any taboo about it. I think that as long as the marketing is done tastefully and ethically than online, then I think that there are plenty of ways for it to be done for firm, all firms. I mean, and frankly, I think it just is part of the equation for PI firms. That's what I believe.
- [12:17]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. And I also like that you mentioned in there that hey, like it's. If these referral partners, it's part of the cost of acquisition is the percentage because some people are like, hey, I don't do, I don't do marketing. But like, ah, you're kind of paying their marketing, right. You know, I guess another one that I was really interested in is on the intake side because, you know, a firm and a litigator like yourself, it's like sometimes the intake can be complex. Like how do you evaluate and train your team to spot maybe a tbi, you know, a brain injury case that other people would just pass on or these different little nuances from identifying, hey, there's actually a case there where maybe a non attorney might miss it. Like, what's your thoughts on that?
- [13:02]
Brett Turnbull
Well, and I know this isn't exactly what you're asking, but I'll say this first, whenever intake is massively important, as we all know, because it's the first people that talk to the customer in your firm and in terms of like making sure that those people have empathy and that they actually are, are talking to your client, putative client perspective, client in a way that they're human beings, is a massive piece of the puzzle. Every single one of those people, regardless, and I say this all the time, every single one of those people, whether they actually turn out to have a case or not, have they their family and their world, okay, is potentially a future client. And so there's so much that goes into this that unfortunately it's not necessarily. It is in conversions matter. Of course they do matter. And you want to make sure that you don't miss big categorical things for sure. And those are all very important things. But it's unfortunate that things have gotten to a place where the whole world is much more transactional than it once was. I. It's just the way it is. But I think that if there's a way for us to go back to people being people, that would be massively, massively helpful in the intake world. The other thing I'll say to answer, to finally really answer your question is how do we make sure that we screen right for, for these other opportunities or for, you know, of course, enhanced injury, things that might be missed. And what I say is that it's really a twofold piece of the puzzle. One, there are certain things that we want to make sure that if it, you know, of course I know there's the drop downs and all the, there's a lot of, a lot of software now that helps with all this stuff. But from a brain injury perspective, that's a very specific one. There's sort of some questions that we ask, you know, and the first ones are always typically about loss of consciousness and certain things of that nature. Once those are answered, yes, we actually have the lawyer. And again, I realize volume has an effect on this. Right. Whether it's really, I get it, everybody's got a different volume circumstance. But to me, the next step for a lot of those type of things, unfortunately, I think there's less lawyer involvement early. And I've heard have some friends who are my colleagues and you know, I guess they'll call competitors who are not wrong when they say that we want lawyers to be doing, you know, they're expensive and they're opinionated and having lots of lawyers in your firm as opposed to other people can oftentimes be challenging. All true, that is not untrue. And that we want people who are lawyers to be doing lawyer functions. But there is something to be said for the clients to have conversations early on with a lawyer where there are circumstances that are really impossible to make. Cookie cutters.
- [15:27]
Chris Dreyer
Hmm.
- [15:27]
Brett Turnbull
And I think that brain injury can be somewhat that way. There are a number of other, you know, jurisdictional questions, a lot of whatever, you know, whether something's a workers comp case or not, which we, you know, is, is a typical challenging analysis, whether it's comp and something else, whatever it might be. Those are things that, in my opinion, maybe that's where unfortunately the cottage industry style firms of, you know, having a high volume and very business efficient mentality, maybe that's where there's a little bit more of a challenge, you know, because you don't have a lawyer who's touching the file as early and it's a little harder to have that judgment call made. But be that as it may, that's the way I think it is. There are certain questions that we want to be answered and it triggers a different path that the case goes on and will be in a lawyer's lap much sooner.
- [16:16]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah, and I, I was interested in that question because I think that you have a unique ability to spot something obviously you're wearing. Right. You have your certain high value activities, but you might be able to take a top trial attorney and to evaluate an opportunity differently than maybe someone just an intake specialist. Not to their, you know, negative. It's just from your experience and being in the courtroom and those different components. So I appreciate that for sure. Even up is excited to announce their latest solution. AI playbooks drive proactive case decisions with AI playbooks by automatically flagging critical information across every case file from intake to resolution. Even up is pioneering AI solutions tailored to help personal injury law firms save time, resolve cases faster, and consistently settle for more. Backed by $235 million in funding, they support over a thousand firms nationwide, from solo practitioners to leading PI firms in the country. Learn more today@evenuplaw.com you know, let's go to the fun part. And I know you, you love talking about trial and I got to witness it. You talking about TBI cases way over my head and the different tactics in the courtroom, you know, so how do you. And also I know you're, you're involved in, you know, trial structure, the national Brain injury lawyer organization and a lot of these different organizations. How are you developing other trial attorneys, Right. Your team to be expert litigators?
- [17:42]
Brett Turnbull
Yeah, I mean, it's a very timely question because I will say I do love to talk about trial. And I think part of that's because that was stuff that, you know, we spent a lot of time working on. And I think that it's something that maybe people talk about a lot and don't really ever. It's, it's kind of like that people in the audience maybe oftentimes don't think that, well, when am I going to really need that or am I going to use that? That's kind of neat. But I don't know if that's really something. That's. For me, all those things are true. When you're sitting in a crowd, I think you have to get on your feet. And I think that's the hardest part about teaching trial. For a lot of these conferences or circumstances, even within a firm. It's really not best at the Socratic. It's really not best on a whiteboard. It's a whiteboard and then, you know, breakouts and do different things. One of the things that we do a lot of, like I just said, is mock trials and focus groups is sometimes we do those with the intention of videotaping and putting people on their feet to do presentations. In cases that aren't necessarily even ready to go to trial. And people say, well, isn't that cost prohibitive? And I say, well, there's, you know, a little research center down the street and we know what it costs to do a morning and an afternoon. And we'll take three different opening statements and do them in the morning and three in the afternoon. Now this is. If I'm trying to really test the case, this is not how we do it. Right. Well, we'll put everybody on their feet and they get to know their file better. We get the opportunity to make sure that they're following at least within the framework and sort of the guardrails of what we expect in terms of the psychology and the different things that we teach for trial. I've learned a lot more about letting people be, of course, more their natural selves. But there are certain fundamental things that doesn't matter what your personality is. These are the things that need to need to happen. So that's one way we do it. I mean, I almost would call it more like workshops really. So we have workshops, mock trials, focus groups, these things. And they are distracting from your day to day profit making. Sometimes. Sometimes that's the challenge, right? You're not dialing for dollars. It's a day you miss dialing for dollars and it's not untrue. It's a day you miss not getting business. I get it. But without that, you're never really. People can't go to two conferences a year and hear something for an hour. It's just. And by the way, those have value. It's just different. Right. Trial stuff to me requires being on your feet and being comfortable with it, you know, it just does. And the only way to do that and not as many cases go to trial anymore. So how do you, you know, lathered up, as I say, how do we sort of get ourselves prepared for the possibility that that's coming down the pike? Because one day it will. And then the question is going to be, what are you going to do with it? So just, I think it requires actually that and it's a lot of energy and effort, but it takes, actually requiring people to step away from their day to day on certain intervals of time and to get on their feet and do things. And it's tough.
- [20:22]
Chris Dreyer
Like everybody's got the zeros, right, that nobody wants to talk about, right?
- [20:26]
Brett Turnbull
Oh, yeah, it's.
- [20:27]
Chris Dreyer
It's not like that movie, what was it with Keanu Reeves, where you never. All I do is win.
- [20:33]
Brett Turnbull
Like you know, 100%.
- [20:36]
Chris Dreyer
When do you throw that associate, you know, into the fire and just, you're like, hey, I'm good. I guess I. You grade the case and you give them a, you know, a D or an E, and before they're. They're taking one of those A or Bs.
- [20:48]
Brett Turnbull
It's challenging. It's a great question, and it's challenging. And I will tell you that I've lost more trials than most people have ever tried, and I'm not ashamed of it. And the reason is because I do cases sometimes that there, there are people out there who are more worried about their record than they are about the client or about the. I always say we have to be committed to the mission and we have to be committed to the work. Okay. And so those two things matter to me as much as anything now. Does that mean that I want to take things and just. I used to jokingly say, if I hadn't lost one in a while, maybe I'm not trying hard enough. I don't know if I still believe that.
- [21:16]
Chris Dreyer
Okay.
- [21:16]
Brett Turnbull
I'm here to tell you. But I think that with that said used to be that you'd send people down with the old drag the little briefcase and try the tough case. But you know, that client deserves excellent legal representation as well. The size of the case will dictate sometimes how tough the competition is, how complicated the subject matters are. But in my opinion, there's ways to have people go down there and be prepared to the extent that they're capable of being prepared. And I mean, young people are given quarters sometimes by juries. Okay, Young lawyers sometimes. And it's not like they feel sorry for them. Well, I guess they could, but that's not what I. That's not what we're shooting for. What we hope is that they're the best version of themselves and the best version that they can be at that time. And so. But it is tough to get experience that way. There's no question. But that's why if you do the things we were describing earlier and you at least have some comfort, you know where to start, you know what you're doing, you know what your. Your objectives are with each piece of the trial. Right? Because you've been doing these things on your feet before. You were sent down there for a period of time when no one else was looking, you know, nobody else was paying attention while it was quiet on the western front, we were getting ready. Then, you know, then that's correct. The car wreck case pops up. That maybe has less implications for the person that we're representing his life than, you know, the most serious of all, then. Yeah, it gives them the ability to do that. But that's, that's kind of been my philosophy with it is we don't treat anything with. And I'm not, I know this isn't what you meant when you asked the question, but I find that instead some firms are just treated sort of like they're lack. Lacking. I don't know, it's like they sort of mail it in, I think. So what I put it.
- [22:47]
Chris Dreyer
Yeah.
- [22:47]
Brett Turnbull
And that's, that's. I want excellent legal services for every single client we have or we shouldn't take the case. Once we take it and we've made that commitment, then that's what we require.
- [22:56]
Chris Dreyer
That's the ultimate client first and not customer. I can't stand when I hear customer. I think of like the widget. Like you're, you're a thing versus the individual. You know, I, I guess this is a fun one. Is there like a bad habit when you get one of these litigators in that you, that you're trying to get them to unlearn? Is there something that you're just sitting watching, you're like, oh shit, that's not going to go well, I've been there. Is there any of those identifiers?
- [23:18]
Brett Turnbull
I had to have been intolerable at some point, a little bit early on. But you know, sometimes, unfortunately, some of the people with the highest upside believe in themselves very much. And they are a little hard to teach and they're a little hard to train. And I have to remind myself of that from time to time because I'm pretty sure that was maybe me. And so there are people that I recognize are a little harder to get. You know, you're explaining things and they're just kind of not doing them. So that's one thing that drives me a little nuts. And I would also say that it's challenging for people to realize that it's a people process. You know, it's all a people based process. And so figuring out what really matters. You know, I always say the four keys to a trial are being able to tell the great story that moves the jury into the story. Okay. And that there's various things that we do to try to make sure that that happens. Of course, second thing is you have to understand the rules, evidence and get in the evidence and keep out the. All the things that you need to do in order to be sure that the picture, the puzzle Pieces are there for the picture to be, to be made. And then, you know, the third thing is that you have to understand what a headshot looks like. And what I say is like, you have to understand, you know, you have to be prepared and be able to analyze things in a way where you understand where you're really. Where you really can't have happen and you can't be afraid to lose. That's the fourth one, you know, the fourth, I know that seems like such a. The other three are like years of learning. And the fourth one is just a mantra, but it's not a mantra. It's really is. The other three can be perfect. And if the fourth one's there, my opinion, it creates serious issues. So from a teaching perspective, people who move around a lot and don't focus at all and how distracting that is, their words seem to not matter nearly as much. And then trying to read the room and the four principles, those are the things for me. Read the room. I mean, you can't watch Harvey Specter and, you know, try to be him. It doesn't work.
- [25:04]
Chris Dreyer
Right. Incredible, Incredible. You know, and I kind of just wanted to give you the mic just a little bit. For brain injury, you're a leader in the space. Maybe you can just give, you know, some of the other litigators, some of the other attorneys that maybe have a case that look into to send to you as an expert, like just about that space in general.
- [25:21]
Brett Turnbull
That space is dear to me for many reasons. Honestly, it's not always the easiest one. I mean, because let's face it, the bad brain injury cases, meaning, you know, the moderate or severes are, they're still. Don't get me wrong, there's still practitioner points that need to be taken there, by all means, but usually the doctors, the treating doctors will do a lot for you. And then it's just, you know, you get kind of an idea of what the prospective injury looks like. What I would say is that the comfort associated with med legal, meaning the lawyer, and understanding how to basically get the client diagnosed, properly treated, you know, in other areas of practice and personal injury, I don't think it's nearly as important as it is in brain injury. And I come from a conservative state, Alabama originally, of course, and where. And even, you know, even Georgia and the other states were practicing, I mean, where. I don't. We've never really wanted to have our hands in how the client treated and you know, medically, you know, those kind of things. Brain injury, especially 10, 15 years ago, when I really started kind of pounding away on it hard. I mean, it's changed a lot. A lot, lot, lot. Like drastically every three years has changed a lot during that time period. And so what I learned was that unfortunately, the medical world wasn't ready for our clients in a lot of ways. Mild TBIs. Mild, complicated TBIs, meaning people had a bleed or some sort of, you know, vascular compromise from the trauma, were people who were diagnosed, if they were diagnosed. Actually, unfortunately, it was just, it was an epidemic issue that I was seeing where in ERs. It was a Glasgow Coma Scale, it was a CT, they were normal, nothing to see here. Or they had 10 other injuries and their brains injured. It's not catastrophic. Right. But it's, you know, a mild TBI. So I always say mild TBIs are no big deal unless it's your brain, you know, that's what I always say. So they weren't really focused on that because the person was unconscious and, you know, sedated and then they come out and then they have these issues of brain injury. So what I would say is that as a practitioner I had to become more comfortable with the notion that there were things that we had to do to make sure that people got diagnosed correctly. We have a whole protocol for that. And then obviously that they have the ability to be treated because. And sometimes that isn't easy. Sometimes geographically, that's a real headache. I mean, depending on where your client lives, it can be a real, real problem. So I think that maybe having more focal focus and having more hands on approach with your clients and brain injury cases is very valuable. The other thing I will say is that gaps in treatment are less, much less of an issue for you as a plaintiff's personal injury lawyer than it would be with like an orthopedic case. Right. It's just different because people have brain injuries, sometimes it's not a completely clear path on how they get diagnosed, treated. You're right. The juries are more understanding. And so there are just, there are nuances to it that exist to me, have existed the entire time I've been doing brain injury. And they've been observations that way, specific, you know, things that have changed in terms of how people are diagnosed and how they're treated. And all that has changed numerous times since, you know, the last 10 or 15 years. Nowadays, I believe that it's the best it's ever been. By so much, I mean, the ability to have people go in and do clinical testing, diagnostic testing, and then also have now software that can read a Lot of the different human. A lot of, like, we use a lot of the wearable technologies now for these folks. It'll tell us about their nervous system, but it also tells us a lot about their endocrine system, which both of those things in an overlay are very important. So there are just some things that we do that get all those things covered. And, man, it's come a long way. I mean, 15 years ago was like a hundred years ago and everything else, it was like 15 years ago. It feels like the dark ages for how brain injuries were med. Legal and how they were handled in our world.
- [28:50]
Chris Dreyer
And then I think the. The wearable technology, the whoop style. Right. I think there's probably some specific brands that you'd use for obviously, clearly, for the brain injury side. Do you think that. And I didn't watch this movie, right. The Will Smith, the. The football, the. The concussion stuff. Like, do you think that played into this awareness more? Was that like a. Like a pivotal moment for this to kind of bring more attention to these types of cases?
- [29:14]
Brett Turnbull
Yeah, I think that. And I think that the war, the Iraq and Afghanistan timeframe, the wrote the bombs, you know, I think both of those things, the military, the US Government and the NFL simultaneously began looking very hard at how these brain injuries were affecting people over time. Of course, you know, a lot of it obviously was really predicated on how people aged who had had brain injuries. And then also traumatically. I mean, it. Yes. I think the answer to that question is unequivocally yes. And those two things happening simultaneously was that's a big deal, Brett.
- [29:47]
Chris Dreyer
This has been amazing. You know, one final question for our audience. Where can they go if they had questions, they want to get in touch with you. Where can they go to connect?
- [29:53]
Brett Turnbull
Yeah, I mean, we. So obviously our website, Turner Law Firm, and we're in Birmingham, Atlanta and Houston, but we have other. Other office locations we're getting ready to open across the country. It's exciting times. And we work all over the country. We really do. We're licensed in probably 30 states total between a lot of. A lot of obviously not where necessarily we live or have offices full time. We still use local council in those places, but we do that because our mantra is we go where the cases are. And so for us, that's really the most important thing.
- [30:20]
Chris Dreyer
Amazing. Brett, thanks for coming on the show.
- [30:22]
Brett Turnbull
Thanks for having me. Chris, as always, you're the man. Appreciate you.
- [30:25]
Chris Dreyer
Thank you. If you're building a trial first firm or want to sharpen your courtroom edge, hit rewind. Brett Turnbull just gave you the gold. Get comfortable in the courtroom, Train before anyone's watching. And don't flinch when it's your turn to go. If you didn't hate this episode, drop me A and follow rate the show five stars. I'm Chris Dreyer, and this is Personal Injury Mastermind.