← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
372. Profit Focused: Bootstrapped, Battle-Tested, and Winning in PI w/ Matt Aulsbrook
00:33:42
Inside the KPIs, mindset, and resilience that took him from a blow-up mattress to leading one of Texas’ most active trial teams.
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- [00:00]
A
Most agencies sell promises. Rankings delivers proof. We've taken firms from invisible to number one in the toughest PI markets in the country. And while others are still scrambling to figure out ChatGPT, we're already optimizing for AI search. So your firm is the first answer clients see. Lead the pack, don't get left behind. Visit Rankings IO for aio, also known as AI Search, and start dominating search today.
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B
I'm not a fan of pissing away marketing dollars if I'm not closing the leads that I'm getting.
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A
Some of the most impressive PI owners I've met didn't start with a perfect Runway. Matt Alsbruck is one of them. When he moved to Fort Worth, he didn't have a law degree. He didn't have a driver's license. He was riding the bus to DWI classes and sleeping on a blow up mattress. No safety net, no head start. And he still built a firm that tried more cases in Tarrant county last.
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C
Year than anyone else.
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B
We've got 50 people, 30 here, 20 virtual remote.
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A
This is a guy who built a firm by focusing on the numbers that matter, not the ones that people brag about.
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B
If you can't wait 18 to 24 months without seeing a real ROI, this.
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A
Is Personal Injury Mastermind, powered by Rankings.
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C
IO and I'm Chris Dreyer.
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A
Today we get into the decisions that helped him scale from nothing. The brand identity that made him stand out and the KPI he uses to keep the firm healthy in a tough market.
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C
Let's go.
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B
The pace with which AI is moving is just shifting everything. I just think if you're not embracing it, then, then you're going to get left behind.
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C
I've probably done about 50 chat GPTs.
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A
Today already the day of.
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C
But who knows, maybe more. You know, I heard, I heard something recently. Your litigation team was told by a district judge that you've tried more cases in Tarrant county than any other firm last year.
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A
So that's got to feel good.
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B
Yeah, I'd like to think that we're doing good work. I mean, we do decent amount of volume when we sign up a case. I tell folks that, you know, 80, 85% of the time we're able to settle this without a lawsuit. But it's important to know that our firm does file lawsuits and more importantly than that, that we try cases. And that's important to you, the client, because the insurance company tracks that data and those metrics and they know who tries cases and who doesn't. Were able to get some better deals up front. Pre lit because they know we'll hold their feet to the fire and they know which firms will and which firms won't. That's not always the case. I mean sometimes they're just gonna dig their feet in and you know, we're too far apart and we gotta go try the case.
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C
There's so much tech and SaaS and it seems like the pre lit stuff's just getting beat down and the margins are getting thinner and thinner as the case acquisition costs rise. So you gotta get some of those asynchronous cases to balance out your cac, you know. Did you guys start out a trial first firm? Was that something that developed like talk me through that thought process of being a trial first firm.
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B
So I personally never wanted to be the trial guy. I'm a business guy. This is a second career for me. I didn't go to law school Till I was 34, graduated at 37, passed the bar at 38. I didn't have my head on right. I'm in recovery for drugs and alcohol and so drugs and alcohol beat me up pretty bad. And when I moved to Fort Worth and Tarrant County, I didn't have a driver's license because the state of Texas didn't see fit for me to have one. I was riding the bus to DWI classes, I was walking across the street to a minimum wage job at a call center. I had a blow up mattress and a folding chair and I wasn't on a winning streak. Shortly after that I decided that, you know, I needed to try something different because drugs and alcohol wasn't working for me. And.
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So sobered up and opened my, my first business which was an Insurance Agency in 2009 and had some success there and scaled those to, to three agencies, mainly property and casualty, mainly cars and typically the auto policies that we don't like to see as plaintiff lawyers. A lot of, you know, maybe people that don't have driver's licenses or people that can't afford really good insurance. But it was some insurances in my opinion some insurance is better than nothing. And so I grew those a little bit in the meantime, got an MBA along the way and solve it. My folks that I was insuring didn't always get a fair shake when they had an insurance claim. And so after I got my mba, took a year away from school and then decided I'd go to law school full time and did that. Passed law school, but I went and lease to office space and before I got the passing results turned out I failed the Bar exam. And in Texas they only allow you to take the bar exam once every six months. So I had to pay rent for six months while I couldn't even practice law. So that was a hard lesson to learn. But give it certainly a little bit more motivation to get it right the second go round. I set out to run a law firm, personal injury firm, that, that tries cases. That wasn't going to be me as the trial lawyer I know, and I have friends that try big cases and manage a firm too. I just don't think dividing that up. Some people are good at edit. I don't think many are good at doing both. And I find joy and satisfaction in the business, the marketing, the management, more so than the trials. I'd rather high five them, you know, when they go get a good verdict.
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C
I love that. Thanks for transparency. And you've clearly turned it around and been wildly successful.
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B
Well, I'll share the sobriety thing because our industry is up there amongst the worst. It's doctors and lawyers that have the highest substance abuse rates. And that's generally because people don't call us on a good day and we deal with stressful things and that's why a lot of lawyers tend to abuse substances. So, yeah, I'm very active in lawyer recovery here in Texas and if you happen to listen to this podcast and want to talk about any of those issues, feel free to reach out. I'm very passionate about that.
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C
Thank you, Matt. Thank you for that. I wanted to talk to you about just briefly on the insurance side of the business. You know, a lot of times we hear the insurance defense, or they start off as a criminal defense lawyer, then they move over to PI. You know, did you package it up with an operator, sell it, and that gave you the capital to kind of jump in and, you know, own your own thing. Did you, did you, you know, bootstrap? Those are still working, you know, and like, like. So how did that transition go? You know, especially while you're going to law school, right? Like, I guess. I assume you had an operator.
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B
Oh, yeah. I had a key woman that was running everything and I was going to package them up to, to sell and then she said she'd like to buy them. I said, well, let's see if we can workout financing. Lenders love when the key person is going to maintain management control. So that was easy sell for the lender and she was able to sell her house to come up with the down payment. And I financed 20% note myself and got 80% upfront and she's making like 5x what she was making when she was working for me and has grown it tremendously since then. And it was just a win win.
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C
And that's awesome.
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B
You know, I used all personal money. My PI shop, it's slim pickings when you, when you start out. It takes a while for the money to come in. And yeah, I, I, I bootstrapped it. I, I had, you know, fortunately I had money from the exit of that business and I was able to, to use that and had some lines of credit from that prior business. And because it's a new entity, ain't nobody giving you no money without any tax returns. But I didn't have to tap into that, but it was nice to have that as a safety net. I didn't have any big cases up, you know, real early on. Shocking you didn't get any big cases. When you open, you open your door. I guess some people are lucky when they spin off and they've already been practicing. But that, that wasn't my experience. But you know, since then we've established the line of credit and case expense line of credit and all the, all the things.
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A
Quick note here. Matt did not want to endorse any lender in public, but if you're thinking about securing a line of credit, he will happily talk to you. His contact info will be at the.
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C
End of our conversation. All right, back to it.
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A
So talk to me about the iteration of marketing. You know, did you start off Texas law dog? You know, since you had your previous business, you're like, hey, I need to.
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C
Stand out and be distinctive. So, you know, role with that or was that an iterative process like talk to me, you know, last few years, how your marketing's kind of evolved.
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B
Nobody can spell my last name. I have had to spell it for people my entire life. So having a URL with my last name just wasn't the play for me. When I started law school, I bought the domain as a1l the texaslawdog.com. so I think you can find appreciation to that in the business that you're in. Having that season a little bit before I actually rolled it out. As I've grown, the marketing changed. I started out with a newsletter. Still do a newsletter. Don't know that I can track ROI on it, but I know I get repeat and referral cases. Would I get as many of them if I didn't send that newsletter? I don't know. But it's pretty cheap and I'm going to keep doing it. I used to do it monthly, and I only do it every other month. But I've been doing that since I've been licensed, which May was been seven years since I've been licensed. So, yeah, seven years. Started out within six months with five grand a month digital, and there ain't no money coming in. Chris. This is five grand a month that I said I'd pay, but ain't no money coming in. That was a lot of money to agree to pay to a digital agency. And in fairness, I mean, it's, you know, one of your colleagues that I'm sure you got respect for, and they shot me straight. They said, if you can't wait 18 to 24 months without seeing a real ROI, I don't want you to sign up with us. Now, they didn't put me on a contract free to leave at any point in time, but they said for you to really see benefit, it's going to take 18 to 24 months. And I'd rather. I'd rather a vendor under promise and overperform than the. Than. Than the opposite. And that's. That's what they did. Then I went to radio on a couple of stations.
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C
Do you play that demo up like the country stations? You got the cowboy hat.
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B
That's who I am. I mean, I grew up on a farm, and somebody asked me yesterday, where am I from? Like, nobody ever mistakes me for being from New York. I mean, I am who I am. And so, yes, I advertise on a country station. That's who I think I resonate with. So it is what it is. Also, I started on the country station, and I did that because there. There was real estate there. I like to kind of go where I see an opportunity. I don't want to go and be the fifth person in. You know, it's a blue ocean or whatever, the purple cow, you know, where I see an opportunity. And now there's a lot more people on the station than when I started. But I've already committed, and they're going to have to spend a lot of money to catch up with me. But some of them are bigger than me anyway. But I try not to compare myself to other firms. I'm just trying to do. Do my deal and be a little bit better than I was yesterday. And there's no magic bullet on this marketing thing. If you're trying to build a brand, it just takes time. And I never took private equity money like some of my competitors and then come in guns blazing. But I sleep better at night knowing I don't Owe any money. I started with one media company and kind of expanded with the same company over to sports radio. And since then, the next thing I moved into was.
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Streaming on the tv. And we've just dipped into some broadcasts, did some Texas Ranger games. I just bought some Dallas Stars games on network tv. And I just think that overlaps with the talk radio, sports listener, so. And people tend to watch sports live. So this is the way things get consumed now. It's a lot more challenging than folks who were doing it back in the, in the 90s.
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C
Yeah, I like the strategy, right. The market strategy, the crossover. I think it all makes sense.
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B
I will add to the radio, man, three years. Three years for a good roi. That was a big check to cut on a monthly basis. I think that's why a lot of people don't do it. It's expensive and it takes time. I'm not three years in on the, on the TV stuff yet, and I think I'll need to be before I start seeing a huge roi. I don't have the, you know, super budget of, you know, I guess the biggest player in Texas market far as marketing is Thomas J. Henry. I don't have anything near his budget.
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C
Yeah, it's kind of interesting too, because, you know, Thomas and Adler and a lot of these guys, they hammer the TV side pretty hard in the Texas market. But I think the radio is a little bit more open. So I think I agree with you on the blue ocean, especially on the country compared to the urban channels.
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B
I haven't done boards yet. I'm thinking about doing some strategically around my offices, man. I just see so many competition on the billboards and I don't know, I haven't, I haven't done it yet, but that's going to be the, the next step. But like to like the billboard right outside my office. I mean, you can see behind me it's a, it's, it's an interstate. And like these billboards right here go for like five grand a month. That's 60 grand a year for one billboard.
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C
There's a hell of a lot of cars driving behind you, though.
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I don't know.
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A
I noticed that when we were talking.
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B
Oh, yeah, by the way, that exit of those insurance agencies allowed me to purchase this building. So that was, that was great.
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C
Oh, so you're doing the real estate play, you know. That's awesome.
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B
Yeah, I had single family rentals as I went along. I'm kind of a gambler. You know, when I was getting my mba, I was using student Loan money to flip houses.
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C
I'm in the real estate. I've done some flips. I got about 99.
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B
The margins just got too small for a while and then my margins are, are pretty good in this game here right now. So I was renting. There's three buildings in a row. I was renting from one and the guy owned the two buildings. They're all identical. And he wouldn't sell to me, although they're both empty. He wouldn't sell. He's still sitting on two empty buildings next to me. This guy was almost fully occupied where I'm at. And I just came and said, will you sell me your building? And he's like, sure. And there was some tenants, him being one of them. And as those leases came up, kicked them out. And so we've got 12,000 foot building here and I just built it out to seat 75 people. Currently we only have 30 in office. So we've got room to at least double my current structures. We've got 50 people, 30 here, 20 virtual remote. So we got a team of 50, you know, if, if we can double here, I know that, you know, we can at least double virtually. So I've got got room to grow. And I think, you know, I didn't think I was going to have as many years. I thought I was going to have a less of a Runway here on this building. But back to our earlier AI discussion. With the way AI is going, I think we'll be able to do more work with less people.
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C
Oh, I 100% agree. It's the ultimate form of leverage. You know, it's the next iteration. So one more question on the building. I mean, you're so close and I see it in the background. I know our audience can listen. I mean, you got any, you got any signage on the building? You got a big. Have you thought about that?
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B
Man, that's. Yeah, 100% I've thought about it. So I wanted to put a digital sign right above me. Nice sign, digital billboard type thing. Daktronics is the manufacturer. City said no. I went to my city councilman, he said, you got my vote. But there's eight people on the council, I'm only one vote. You ain't got the rest of them. I had a political strategist in here today and he was asking me about local politics. I was like, it doesn't get any more local than my sign right here. Can you help me with that? So we'll see.
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A
Yeah, that's the first thing that came to mind.
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B
I'm like, no, they'll let me put regular channel letters up there. But I thought from like, you know, helping the public out, I could at least put time and temp or something up there to yeah, you know, public policy help standpoint. But I don't know. They're telling me, no, you get a.
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C
Big ass tractor trailer with some signage on and just park it in the front of it.
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B
I thought about that. Yeah. Yeah. That's another thing. I mean, I sue truck drivers and that's, you know, part of my, my marketing is my dad drove a truck all his life and my brother owns a trucking company. And I love truckers, but they need to be safe and need to follow the law. And so it's kind of a unique story. So I grew up around trucks. I know it better than most because I grew up around it.
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A
AI search is changing the signals and paid media is tightening every week. The firms that adjust early will be the ones out front. I'm Chris Strier, Steven Willie and I will walk you through what actually leads to visibility in sign cases in 2026. Sign up for the webinar now and take the edge your competitor leaves on the table. Bright Performance Marketing in 2026 December 16th at 3pm Central. Free registration at Rankings IO Webinars. Don't leave your boy hanging. Me and Steven Willie are going to crush it. We're going to show you how to sign cases in 2026 with performance marketing. That's the name of the game. Let's make that money.
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Knowing your KPIs is a non negotiable at a PI firm. But not every KPI tells you the.
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C
Truth or the whole story.
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A
Instead of chasing top line metrics, he breaks down the KPIs that actually guide how he runs the firm and what he watches more than anything else.
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B
Everybody always is like, what's your revenue? What's your top line revenue? And man, I know some people that got some big top line revenues that don't make a damn bit of profit. So the KPI that I look at the most, that's the most important to me is a pie chart. And it has my payroll. It's all as a percentage has my payroll and that's broken down into attorney payroll and non attorney payroll. And then it has my marketing spend and then it has my ops spend and then it has my cut as an owner and then it has a piece of pie for profit slash taxes. And I got to make sure that traditionally that payroll hadn't gone over 40% 20 and 20. I think again, as AI continues to go, that we may be able to get that down a little further, maybe 35%. And I've been there.
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C
Do you do revenue per head? Do you do like a subcategory of that? That's one that I've been tracking in addition to the payroll.
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B
I geek out on KPIs, man, I've probably got over 100 payroll built out on a program we use called Domo. But the only one I can think that we still haven't gone digital on is.
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Like profit center analysis. And that's per producer. People say, oh, eight figure firm. I want to do $10 million. And okay, that's great, but I never wanted to do 10 million in fees and not make any money. I'd rather do 5 million in fees and make $2 million. Like that's. I think that gets lost. And I think there are some charlatans out there pitching, you know, courses and stuff to teach you how to be the next biggest, greatest thing ever and want to paint the picture that they've had successful firms when in reality their firms may not have been as successful as they portray it. And I just encourage people to do their due diligence.
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C
I get hit with them on Facebook all the time. Yeah, I see it. You know, do you do. So that pie chart, you got the, you know, where, where do you throw like facilities Admin, like, do you. Yeah, that. You throw that in ops? Yeah.
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B
Oh, that's in operations. So I want that 10% marketing. It just depends on where you want to go. I personally this year I just had cash sitting and I've expended more marketing, but in a non traditional way. I've started investing in mass torts. So that's actually a marketing spend, but not counting it towards my single event practice.
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C
Is that like a hedge for auto?
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B
Yes. Yes it is. For me.
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Tort reform is a real deal and we have battled it. We have a session here, a legislative session in Texas every two years. We just wrapped up one a couple of months ago. And it was the greatest attack on personal injury and torts that people in my circle here in Texas said they've ever seen. And they date that back to when they came and took med mal away in 2003. And even when they took work comp away in Texas way back then, they said what they tried to do last session was greater than what they did. Taking away those. Fortunately, we had some patriots, some Republicans stand firm against our arch nemesis here in Texas, which is Texans for Lawsuit reform. Texans for Lawsuit Reform is the largest campaign contributor to Texas politics, bigger than anybody else. I think most people in Texas would be shocked to know Texas in lawsuit reform gives more money to more political candidates than any other organization. And it's unfathomable the millions of dollars they spend to get their people elected. And we had some, we had some Republican freshmen this last time stand up to them, and we got enough of the R's to side with the D's, which we carry most of to fend off huge, huge attack. It's the first time TLR had lost in, in my memory. They usually just are able to steamroll everything they want because nobody wants to vote against their bill because they don't want to get primaried out the next go round because they have so much money.
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C
I talked to Michael Cowan, I think Angel Reyes, a couple other Texas attorneys that were really, hey, we're watching this close. It's either going to go this way or that, or, hey, we're going to have to start looking at another state.
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B
Yeah, so that's exactly what I did was a little hedge for me was the mass torch. So I don't want to go to another state. So that's, that's the route I took.
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C
Yeah, that makes sense.
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A
So you got your domo lead docket.
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C
Stuff, you know, on the KPIs, you know, you know, you tracking your wanted percentage, stuff like that, you know, you're trying to hit, you know, 90 plus.
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A
Like any other KPIs you'd like to share. Because the reason I'm asking on the KPIs and you're, you said you're excited to talk about it, but most of the time my audience doesn't want to talk about the KPIs. I just want to talk about, you know, the bigger picture. So I'd love to hear any others that you would share or try to target.
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B
Well, I'm not a fan of pissing away marketing dollars if I'm not closing the leads that I'm getting. I'm probably the most involved with intake as far as any aspect of the business, intake and marketing. And in my experience, even outside of personal injury, any business that I've seen have tremendous growth and scale. The owner is usually driving the sales and marketing. And that's, that's my wheelhouse. That's, that's what I enjoy doing. And yeah, we're, we're consistently above 90% on closing the wanted leads of, you know, I've got some, got some people who have Been in the industry a couple of decades, handling my intakes. They kind of know. And I look at most everyone, you know, and they, they're asking me, do you want to take this? Do you want. I want to take this. And you mentioned earlier about the margins being reduced on the pre lit, and I didn't get to speak to that. And I agree with that. I think, I think the, I think we may be trending towards more of a litigation type thing as maybe. I'm talking about as an industry, as firms, big firms that do a lot of cases, I think maybe shifting that route because traditionally 80% of our money comes from the top 20% of our cases, and 50% of the money comes from the top 5% of our cases. That's traditional plaintiff work as a whole. So, yeah, I think, I think that may be a shift. But, yeah, I'm totally in with the intake. That's kind of where I live. I know we run filevine, but many days I never log into filevine because I don't. I don't work cases.
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C
All right, so you, you're. You're just in the Domo, you're listening to the call.
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B
Yeah, yeah, I've got a. I've got a big TV in my office, and it sits there and scrolls KPIs, and we use those across various departments. Each departments have their KPIs, their individual KPIs, and we blast that on the, on the, on the screens in those departments because I think people are inherently competitive and I don't think they want to be the low man on the totem pole. So I think a little healthy competition is good.
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C
I agree, I agree. Only thing that pisses me off about Domo is they don't refresh fast enough.
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But, yeah, that's something that you got to fight with and get that sometimes they just don't refresh.
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B
I went to the Domo conference last year and, wow, that thing was huge. There was probably less than five plaintiff lawyers there. I just did not know how big and how many organizations that they help, man. Like, they're big time.
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C
Yeah, absolutely.
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B
Like to know that I have the ability to track data like Lifetime Fitness or like the mba, for example. It's just mind blowing that I can have the same stuff that those big.
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C
Organizations can have on the intake side. You know, of course, we all know speed to lead and answering the phone, not missing any calls and all that stuff. And since you're. I kind of understand your tech stack with the filevine lead dockets stuff, you Know, how do you think about, and you're in the eight figures, the staffing of intake.
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A
Like you do you do the full cycle reps?
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C
Do you have a chase team? Do you have a team that's, you know, how do you think about the workforce management at night and weekends? Like, do you do combo nearshore? Like, like talk to me about the intake a little bit and how since you're so involved and you, and you get a passion about it, how do you think about like those components?
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B
It's, it's pretty amazing the amount of leads that, that we take in and that we sign that. I only have two intake professionals, they are workhorses and they, they trade off nights, weekends, and they back each other up nights, weekends, and a hundred percent, 100% US all in house. I don't have any backup. No backup, nothing. Like occasionally it's been a long time, but if I see something sitting, I may call it myself, but I can't remember the last time I've had to do that.
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C
So you keep it lean and mean and that speaks to the profit too?
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B
I do, but I don't know. I don't know that that's the way it's going to stay. I mean, I built out a whole room for, you know, intake to grow, but seems like AI may be changing the game with the intake. I don't know. I've always been a school of thought that people want to talk to a real person and I, I wanted my clients to have an experience that I would like to have and I know I don't like the overseas and I don't like the phone tree and I don't like that experience for me. So I have pushed back on that as of yet. I'm not saying I won't change. And I know there are people out there in the industry that are having great success with it. I just haven't got there yet personally. Just because it works for somebody or somebody else likes it doesn't mean it's a fit for me and I'm okay with that. I'm not into the new shiny object. They're making all this AI seem like it's awesome, but there's so much work and build out and it's not always what it's cracked up to be once you get in there in the nuts and bolts.
- [28:57]
C
Yeah. I heard something recently like everything starts out as software, you know, like even the oil and the cars, you know, you get classified as software until it's not software and then software is iterative and Exploratory tour, you know what I mean?
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A
Until the thing actually works, it's not.
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B
Software anymore, as we mentioned. Software. I know. Don't know when this will be released and when. People may listen to it, they may listen to it a long time down the road, but as of yesterday, I just saw the news release that Filevine just got $400 million in capital. So be interested to see what they do with that.
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C
I just.
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A
Look, if there's a bubble, it's this tech and AI bubble valuations and what's.
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C
Carrying the NASDAQ 100.
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A
I mean a CLIO just raised their.
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C
Like Series F or whatever the hell it's on now.
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A
And, and it's like, hey, so you know, who knows what they'll do a.
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C
Big, you know, maybe it's a big acquisition play or maybe they'll go hire the top AI people to implement it.
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A
On their tech, who knows?
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C
But it's, it's kind of interesting to see how they're going to deploy that much capital.
- [30:02]
B
Yeah, I mean we use most of their AI stuff and I don't think that they've necessarily been on the cutting edge as some of maybe the competitors in that space, but I just didn't want another platform if I didn't have to have another platform. So if my people don't have to log into another software, I think with $400 million, they can do some catch up.
- [30:20]
C
Yeah, yeah, I'd say, I'd say.
- [30:22]
A
And look, I'm a big proponent, lead.
- [30:24]
C
Docket filevine, I'm a huge proponent.
- [30:26]
A
I think the, the Salesforce and the.
- [30:29]
C
Litify, you know, then you gotta get your own Salesforce engineer and stuff just to do the tech implementation like you're saying. So I think out of the box, especially for PI and the capabilities for the chase sequences and the turndowns and all that. I think it's a very good tech stack.
- [30:43]
B
I would argue now that you need an internal person to build out valvine. I would make that argument. I would hate to have to do it now. Litify's up there. Valvine's good. I encourage people that are a small shop if they don't want to do a lot of tweaking to look at case peer. I don't personally use it, but ready to go out of the box.
- [31:04]
C
Yeah, that's fair, that's fair. And I just appreciate you sharing and in your transparency, but for audience listening, you know, that had some questions for you and wants to connect. What's the best way to get in touch with you.
- [31:14]
B
My Cell phone is 903-348-2154. Email is matt the texaslawdog.com Happy to, happy to chat with anybody. I mean, happy to geek out over anything that, that we've covered here or I mean, I love talking shop, so I love this stuff. I come in the office every day because I love it. I think we're doing good work. I'm really passionate about what we do. I think insurance companies are greedy bastards and but for plaintiff lawyers, then, you know, they wouldn't be held accountable.
- [31:50]
A
Matt's story is a good reminder that clear positioning and the right metrics can change the trajectory of a firm. If you want the best performance marketing for your own practice, that's the work we do every day at Rankings, helping PI firms build a brand that stands out and a pipeline that delivers. Check us out@ Rankings IO. I'm Chris Dreier.
- [32:06]
B
Thanks for listening.