389. Win During Market Shifts: MVAs, Expansion + Lead Generation w/ Michael Steinger

Summary

Podcast Summary: Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer

Episode 389: Win During Market Shifts: MVAs, Expansion + Lead Generation w/ Michael Steinger
Release Date: January 29, 2026
Host: Chris Dreyer (Founder & CEO, Rankings.io)
Guest: Michael Steinger, Founding Partner, Steinger, Green and Finer

---

Overview

This episode offers an unfiltered deep-dive into how Michael Steinger built his personal injury powerhouse—from humble, two-person beginnings to a 400+ person, multi-state firm—amid ongoing market fragmentation, legislative changes, and industry-wide consolidation. Steinger and Dreyer tackle pressing topics: surviving and thriving in evolving legal markets, expansion into new states, changing lead generation and intake strategies, technology investments, and the realities behind brand-building at scale.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Humble Beginnings to Major Expansion

• Steinger recounts how he and a partner started their firm with little money, each covering multiple roles ("from answering the phones to new client calls, to driving to people's homes and typing our own documents").
• Quote (02:07, Michael Steinger):
  "In the very beginning, unfortunately I had no idea what the hell I was doing... You just have to do this on your own."
• Focus on building a fun, familial culture: "My motto has always been, let's have fun and make money." (02:32)
• Retention: Their first employee is still with them 27 years later.

2. Marketing Evolution: Traditional Media to Digital Dominance

• The initial growth relied heavily on traditional media—television, radio, billboards.
• Has since shifted to a "much more significant piece" in digital: PPC, LSAs, SEO, and social media.
• Quote (04:11, Michael Steinger):
  "Between, as you're aware, PPC and LSAs, between SEO, there's just a million different ways to reach people."
• Jingles and local branding still play a role, e.g., kids singing their jingle in communities. (05:10)
• Fragmentation Challenge: "There's more channels to reach the same number of people, so you have to be in more places." (04:35)

3. Choosing and Entering New Markets

• Market expansion requires careful selection: minimum population size, state laws (e.g., fault statutes), demographic fit, and the need to withstand negative cashflow for years.
• Quote (06:30, Michael Steinger):
  "I need a market large enough to have a population base... I can take 1 or 2% and still make a living."
• Local brand nuance is critical: Ads that worked in Miami do not resonate in Nashville; tailored messaging is a must.
• Expectation for new markets: Often must "bleed money for a year" (07:33) or longer.

4. Effective Intake: 'Grit Plus Systems'

• Their in-house intake team: ~80 people, multiple time zones, covering 24/7, highly bilingual (Spanish especially).
• Heavy investment in proprietary Salesforce-based software for tracking from lead gen to case closure.
• Outsourced call centers are still managed/owned directly.
• Every metric is tracked—contact rates, closure rates, and compensation is tied to KPI performance.
• Quote (10:58, Michael Steinger):
  "I needed to see integration of an ad placed all the way through to case resolution so I can track... exactly what we're getting and what that value is."
• Structure: Multi-tiered teams (A/B/C levels), with best reps on highest-priority leads, including outbound "chase groups."

5. Staying Calm During Change; Why MVAs Aren't Going Away

• Steinger dismisses "doom and gloom" predictions about the demise of traditional channels and auto accident demand.
• Despite the rise of self-driving cars, accidents (and thus cases) remain steady due to American driving culture and increased distractions.
• Quote (12:34, Michael Steinger):
  "Network television would die... And here we all still are building brands... It is not dead."
• 80%+ of the firm's case volume is still automobile-related.

6. Business Operations & Data-Driven Management

• Each office is managed by an "office partner" who is responsible for their team, armed with detailed dashboards—cases, values, cycle times, etc.
• Operate with a structure similar to a public company: set quarterly goals/targets and review progress weekly.
• Custom in-house software powers their extensive data tracking.
• Quote (15:45, Michael Steinger):
  "Unlike how law firms worked in the old days, this is massively data driven."

7. Industry Consolidation, ABS, and Access to Capital

• Examines the rise of Alternative Business Structures (ABS), MSOs (Managed Services Organizations), and increasing non-lawyer ownership.
• Early mover: one of the first firms to secure ABS licenses in Arizona and Utah.
• The need for industry capital drove adoption of ABS—and thus the ability to keep up with national advertisers and corporate competitors.
• Describes MSOs as the "norm" in professional services, allowing for legal service expansion while raising external capital.
• Firm is consistently acquiring other established firms for growth, typically maintaining their local brands.
• Quote (18:18, Michael Steinger):
  "As a leader, it was my job to find a path forward... so we were one of the first to get an ABS license in Arizona."

8. Lead Generation—Brand vs. Brokerage

• Acknowledges lead gen companies' competitive advantage from bulk/national media buying.
• Believes building a brand is essential but is open to high-quality lead gen partnerships/purchases.
• Quote (21:49, Michael Steinger):
  "I still believe in a brand and building a brand, though. I don't have an issue with supplementing that brand with Legion."
• Entering markets via lead gen can help new firms gain initial cashflow to eventually build sustainable brands.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Have fun and make money. And that means taking care of the people around you... finding those people and growing together as a family."
  — Michael Steinger, 02:32

• "I can tell you that we are probably 80 plus percent auto driven. So that is our core focus. And we do not see the downturn...accidents keep happening."
  — Michael Steinger, 12:34

• "Unlike how law firms worked in the old days, this is massively data driven."
  — Michael Steinger, 15:45

• "If Wall Street gets their hands in it ...we're not going to be able to spend at a level to keep up."
  — Michael Steinger, 17:18

• "Coming out of law school today would kill me. But...there's a path to buy leads, to build a business, to get a cash flow that you can then use to continue to build a brand."
  — Michael Steinger, 22:17

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:07] — Steinger on the firm's origins and culture
• [04:11] — Shift from traditional to digital marketing
• [06:30] — How to select and enter new markets
• [09:19] — Building robust intake systems
• [10:58] — Investment in custom Salesforce integration
• [12:34] — MVAs, brand building, and the durability of core practice area
• [15:45] — Data-driven firm management and dashboards
• [18:18] — Industry consolidation, ABS, and competitive necessity
• [21:49] — Lead gen, brand value, and entrance strategies for new firms

---

Contact

• Michael Steinger: injurylawyers.com

  "If you send some crazy email inward, somehow they will find me... I am actually in this every day... here to help." (22:52)

---

Episode Tone & Style

Transparent, pragmatic, and occasionally wry—Steinger is forthcoming about both successes and hard lessons, emphasizing resilience and the importance of adapting to ongoing industry changes. Dreyer's questions are energetic and probing, surfacing actionable insights for PI firm leaders looking to scale and adapt.

---

For Personal Injury entrepreneurs and operators, this is a must-listen episode on surviving and winning in an era of consolidation, technological disruption, and intensifying competition.

Transcript

[Chris Dreyer]

Learn legal marketing and intake from the.

[Michael Steiner]

Masters of personal injury.

[Chris Dreyer]

PIMCON 2026 October 4th through 7th at Scottsdale, Arizona.

[Michael Steiner]

Get your tickets today. PIMCON.org that's P I M C O.

[Podcast Host 1]

N. O R G. I have these hundreds of employees.

[Michael Steiner]

They're depending on me to make the right choices for their survival. And the only way I'm going to be able to do that is to have capital to compete. So as a leader, it was my job to find a path.

[Chris Dreyer]

The market is evolving, the channels fragment, the cost of attention goes up, and at some point you have to decide whether you're building a firm that survives in the environment or one that gets boxed out by it.

[Michael Steiner]

I need a market large enough to.

[Podcast Host 2]

Have a population base so that I.

[Michael Steiner]

Don'T need 100% of them. I can take 1 or 2% and.

[Podcast Host 2]

Still make a living.

[Chris Dreyer]

This is Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the elite performance marketing agency for law firms. Michael Steiner is the founding partner at Steiner, Green and Finer. The firm started with two people answering their phones. Today it operates across multiple states, employs hundreds of people, owns one of the most valuable domains in legal and is actively buying firms. As consolidation accelerates, we talk about how he chooses new states, how self driving cars are affecting the volume of MVA cases, and why brand still matters even when you have the cash to spend at scale. Let's get into it.

[Michael Steiner]

We've had massive expansion over the last few years into multiple states, every state being fun and this is what I love. And we're looking at an industry that we see consolidation beginning, we see a few big players that will ultimately we feel dominate. And so we're taking advantage of every.

[Podcast Host 2]

Opportunity to do that.

[Podcast Host 1]

Love it. And I can't wait to dig into some of those. The consolidation, the expansion, I mean, you.

[Michael Steiner]

Went from two people essentially answering the.

[Podcast Host 1]

Phone to a 400 plus person operation.

[Michael Steiner]

You know, so it's got to be surreal. Take me back to the beginning. You know, you were receptionist and the lawyer. So talk to me about that.

[Podcast Host 1]

In the very beginning, unfortunately I had.

[Michael Steiner]

No idea what the hell I was doing, but started out with two of us, from answering the phones to new client calls, to driving to people's homes and typing our own documents and everything from start to finish. And it was working insane hours and.

[Podcast Host 2]

Just, you know, you don't have the.

[Michael Steiner]

Money so you have no choice. So you just have to do this on your own. And it's just trying to build it from there and I can tell you, our first employee is still with us some 27 years later. My motto has always been, let's have fun and make money. It's still have fun and make money. And that means taking care of the.

[Podcast Host 2]

People around you because they're doing even more of the work than sometimes we do. And so, yeah, it's about finding those people and growing together as a family and respecting everybody around you.

[Michael Steiner]

So that's been the most fun and.

[Podcast Host 2]

The most challenging part of this for sure.

[Podcast Host 1]

Absolutely. And you know, when people have fun, that seems like they're more productive too.

[Michael Steiner]

Even you can even hear someone's smile.

[Podcast Host 1]

On the voice or on a call, like for intake in particular.

[Michael Steiner]

I agree with you having fun, making money. To me, it's not a job. This is just what I do. If it was a job, it would suck.

[Podcast Host 2]

So it is building the environment to make people feel like it's home and.

[Michael Steiner]

It'S fun and they enjoy it. And so we have times of laughing and goofing around, and we know there's a lot of hard work that has to get done, but you gotta have.

[Podcast Host 2]

Fun while you're doing it.

[Podcast Host 1]

One of the things I want to dig into, because you have a robust marketing engine, right? You've got not only the trial lawyers that bring in the referrals, and you've been at this a while from the.

[Michael Steiner]

Systemic referrals, you've got the injurylawyers.com domain.

[Podcast Host 1]

But I kind of want to fast forward and you even alluded, hey, consolidation, and things are changing. How do you think about marketing marketing today? Like the marketing mix for attention today.

[Michael Steiner]

We started out very traditional media, television, outdoor, because when I started, it was all that there was. So we have still an insane marketing budget. And a significant piece of it is still traditional media in continuing to brand.

[Podcast Host 2]

But a much more significant piece of.

[Michael Steiner]

It is digital now. So between, as you're aware, PPC and LSAs, between SEO, there's just a million different ways to reach people.

[Podcast Host 2]

Social media still is a big piece.

[Michael Steiner]

Of it, and you have to be.

[Podcast Host 2]

There and you have to spend dollars. You have to do both. You have to be organically present and.

[Michael Steiner]

You have to pay to be there. There's more channels to reach the same number of people, so you have to.

[Podcast Host 2]

Be in more places.

[Podcast Host 1]

There's big umbrellas, right? On the traditional thoughts on TV versus.

[Michael Steiner]

Radio and then on the digital, like.

[Podcast Host 1]

Where does programmatic fit in?

[Michael Steiner]

We still think traditional television, whether it's network tv, cable tv, all gives you dimensions of both audio and Video. So we think it's more impactful and more responsive for our audience. We've had a firm jingle that we've used in radio and have always used in tv. And we jingle the firm name and phone number and it's been around forever and little kids still sing it that I see in our communities.

[Podcast Host 2]

And it's great, it works, but we.

[Michael Steiner]

Have to be everywhere. It's not easy.

[Podcast Host 1]

It's not. And it's so fragmented. I mean, you know, back from the.

[Michael Steiner]

Yellow Pages day where it's like the double truck ads or whatever they're called, and then it's like KV TV and broadcasting. But now there's multiple, even social media.

[Podcast Host 1]

Channels and platforms to use.

[Michael Steiner]

I think it was easier in the old days. You know, there were three major networks and that was it. And that's how you reach people. And now you have to be all over the place and you've got to kind of pinpoint your demographic and your niche and your market. And if you don't have an insane.

[Podcast Host 2]

Budget to compete with, you know, large.

[Michael Steiner]

Advertisers, you have to find your place in the community that you can resonate as you make more money, put more money in, keep putting in your profits.

[Podcast Host 2]

To build your business.

[Michael Steiner]

Because at the end of the day.

[Podcast Host 2]

Someone'S going to win.

[Podcast Host 1]

You guys have been expanding, you're multiple markets now, you know, in each jurisdiction has its own challenges, right. Florida had the tort reform, and now other states are being targeted. California in particular is being highly targeted right now. On the expansion side, you're going to.

[Michael Steiner]

Go to a new market.

[Podcast Host 1]

How do you think about that approach?

[Michael Steiner]

It depends. If you're going organically as your own.

[Podcast Host 2]

Firm and trying to grow it.

[Michael Steiner]

I look at markets to think, okay, first I need a market large enough.

[Podcast Host 2]

To have a population base so that.

[Michael Steiner]

I don't need 100% of them. I can take 1 or 2% and.

[Podcast Host 2]

Still make a living.

[Michael Steiner]

So I need enough population. If it's too small, it's a big struggle. And then you got to understand the laws and make sure that they fit.

[Podcast Host 2]

To what we do.

[Michael Steiner]

There's some states where the laws work really well and some states not so great. And you got to pay attention to that. Some states, you know, you're 1% at fault, you're going to recover nothing.

[Podcast Host 2]

Some states, you could be 99% at fault and recover.

[Michael Steiner]

So you got to be careful on those jurisdictions coverage amounts, whether or not.

[Podcast Host 2]

You can board medical bills at trial.

[Michael Steiner]

There are a lot of considerations that.

[Podcast Host 2]

Go into making that determination.

[Michael Steiner]

And we usually try to weigh those out and trying to pick places to grow into. And then sometimes we have a message that works in one market that does not work in another. I've run TV commercials in South Florida, Miami, that do not resonate in Nashville, Tennessee.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's different people and they respond differently.

[Michael Steiner]

And there are brands that are built.

[Podcast Host 2]

In those markets already.

[Michael Steiner]

So breaking through takes time and money.

[Podcast Host 2]

And you have to be able to wait it out. And we know going into a new.

[Michael Steiner]

Market, I'm just going to bleed money.

[Podcast Host 2]

For a year before I begin to see any cash flow at all.

[Podcast Host 1]

I've talked to Rossalino, I've talked to other individuals and they'll say, hey, at minimum three years before we even start to break even, you know, and start to saturate the market. But I guess, you know, especially the different type of messaging, just any thoughts on that?

[Michael Steiner]

Because you're already behind the eight ball in the cash flow cycles anyway. You know, you're 12 to 18 months anyways.

You're already spending the money, so you got to throw it out there and you got to try. We tend to use what's worked in other markets first. And if it doesn't resonate, then we look to change a message. We look at what other people who've been in the market are running to see what is appealed to that demographic in that market. And then sometimes we also say, well, you know, there's no one running, you know, money ads, you know, showing people how much they can recover and there's an opportunity to do that in a market. And so sometimes it just, just depends who's there and what's running. Most consumers respond to fear and greed. Greed because they want the money and fear because they're going to miss out on getting some.

When I see the ads of like.

[Podcast Host 1]

The winning positioning versus the outcome of them holding the check, you know, the results oriented. It's like the feature versus benefit that's.

[Michael Steiner]

Always spoken about in marketing.

Clients don't really want to know the hell that, you know, someone else went through and their surgeries and everything else. They just want to see, you know, a lottery winning outcome and think, ooh, that's for me.

[Podcast Host 1]

Right?

[Michael Steiner]

So yeah, don't tell me how bad it was. Just tell me what the ultimate show me the check, show me the money.

[Podcast Host 2]

And I'll feel like you can accomplish it for me.

[Podcast Host 1]

Well said.

[Michael Steiner]

Let's talk about intake. So you've called your formula the Grit plus systems. So let's dig into that. Like, what does, you know, growing to your size. Feeding the beast with the marketing engine. You got to make sure you're making sure there's not a lot of leakage. And talk to me about your systems, your, your intake team.

[Podcast Host 2]

We have a huge intake team, probably.

[Michael Steiner]

Pushing, I don't know, at least 80 people. We're covering different time zones throughout the country. Someone has to answer these phones 24 7.

[Podcast Host 2]

We have to be bilingual.

[Michael Steiner]

Spanish is huge, especially in places like Texas or Florida, Arizona markets where there.

[Podcast Host 2]

Is a big Hispanic population. And we cover all of those.

[Michael Steiner]

So it is constant training, constant upkeep. We have built software systems both for intake and case management, Salesforce based systems.

[Podcast Host 2]

That are proprietary to us.

[Michael Steiner]

But we have people on staff both here within the US and external. We have outside of the country call.

[Podcast Host 2]

Centers that we actually run that are staffed by our own people.

[Michael Steiner]

But it is never ending training, it is never ending staying on top of them. We track every metric you can imagine. So we know what our wanted rates.

[Podcast Host 2]

Are, we know what our closure rates are and what we need to maintain.

[Michael Steiner]

And people are compensated by maintaining certain numbers.

A lot of, I would say a.

[Podcast Host 1]

Lot of people that I talk to in the PI space, it's generally it's Salesforce or lead docket, right? Filevine lead docket.

[Michael Steiner]

You know, you chose Salesforce. The downside, it seems like you need your own developer data engineers. Like how are you approaching the customization of the Salesforce? Do you have a whole data engineer.

Team for those who can't afford it? Pick something that is standardized, that works. We created our own through Salesforce and so it did take dollars to develop and to do it in a way we wanted. But I needed to see integration of an ad placed all the way through to case resolution so I can track where an ad came from and what.

[Podcast Host 2]

An average fee for case was for.

[Michael Steiner]

That particular channel and know exactly what we're getting and what that value is. So we needed something to integrate all the way from marketing all the way.

[Podcast Host 2]

Through case resolution and to be able to pull all this data and Salesforce.

[Michael Steiner]

But it was millions of dollars to build. I wish I could tell you otherwise but. But it was worth it for us.

[Podcast Host 1]

Thank you for the transparency.

[Michael Steiner]

You know, and I got one other.

[Podcast Host 1]

Question just in general about like the team set up because you do have a large team, right?

[Michael Steiner]

So is it full cycle intake reps? Do you segment the Chase team? What's like the team structure look like.

At this size it is divided into groups and teams and kind of graded by level of intake. So there's A level and B level and C level. And phones have to ring to groups or emails or APIs come into groups, the best groups first to grab that are available and then trickle downward. And then there's chase groups and outbound dialers to stay on top of every lead that comes in. Not everyone is an inbound, you know, call. There's a lot of form fills and other things that we have to outbound and we have to stay on top.

[Podcast Host 2]

Of those outbounds and we have to have dialers that continually bug people until we get them on the phone.

[Michael Steiner]

So there's different groups for outbound calls.

[Chris Dreyer]

Technology changes, attention shifts and someone declares that the old channels are finished. But what's interesting is that the firms still winning tend to ignore the panic. Michael has lived through multiple ways of disruption. He's watched predictions come and go and instead of reacting, he's kept building. That's what led him to this observation.

[Michael Steiner]

Hear the doom and gloom that came from everybody. We had doom and gloom that, you know, network television would die and they'll never be able to build a brand. And that was now 10 or 12 years ago. And here we all still are building brands and running traditional. It is not dead. I happen to have a Tesla. Our accident numbers are all still up and here because we have these wonderful things called cell phones. And so accidents are continuing to happen. America was built on the automobile people love to drive. It is not going to end anytime soon. I feel like my kids will become lawyers and this practice will still be happening. And I can tell you that we are probably 80 plus percent auto driven. So that is our core focus. And we do not see the downturn. What we actually see is less competitors in each market because people can't afford it as we're consolidating to big players. So our market share keeps gaining and accidents keep happening. We pull accident statistics from every market, every county and city so we know where they sit and how they're happening. We'll still be here for decades.

So let's talk about like communication, alignment.

[Podcast Host 1]

You've got 17 offices, you got a big staff.

[Michael Steiner]

You know, how do you keep everybody rowing in the same direction? Do you have a, a business operating framework that works for you at your size, EOS scaling up or a custom version of your own operating system?

There is back of house that handles everything from marketing and intake to HR to finance that helps an entire engine function. And then every office is run by an office. We call them office partners, lawyers who are responsible for all of those teams of lawyers under them. And they are given, they have dashboards of metrics of every kind. So they know number of cases coming in and viability and values and coverages and, and everything they need to know and how their teams are moving and you know, how many days before the case has been on desk or hasn't been reviewed and, and they're responsible ultimately.

[Podcast Host 2]

For a number at the end of the day.

[Michael Steiner]

So you know, you can ebb and flow and you can settle a case today that you, you know, thought wouldn't settle till next month or you cannot settle a case. You expect it, it happens. But on average, as you go through really large volume, it all seems to average out. And they're responsible to make sure that their teams produce a number. And they're kind of function a little bit like a publicly traded company. We are functioning quarterly and we run numbers quarterly. And there are goals and budgets set by every market for every office partner as to what targets they need to hit and what we expect. Not just in, in just pure revenue, but also in number of cases moved and average fee per case each of those managers is met with every single week to go through where they're at in their quarter and how it's progressing and what their projections are and what resources they need from us to help.

[Podcast Host 2]

Them to get what they need to.

[Michael Steiner]

To reach those goals.

A lot of these different business operating.

[Podcast Host 1]

Systems, they'll tell you to do the KPIs.

[Michael Steiner]

Do you have, you know, CFO controller? Do you have a data scientist like who's ultimately responsible to determine even what these KPIs are and hold everyone accountable?

My answer is yes on all of those things. And we review them all the time. There are global dashboards given out to partners so that daily so they can see where things are. They have their own dashboards that they work from. Unlike how law firms worked in the old days, this is massively data driven. And that's why we felt some of the out of the box softwares didn't accomplish everything we needed, which is why.

[Podcast Host 2]

We ended up building systems that work specifically to how we function.

[Podcast Host 1]

Smart.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 1]

And it's helped you opened the door on the consolidation.

[Michael Steiner]

So we got the MSOs, we got one function. Some of them have the staffing company set up like the Legal Zoom and that's how they're playing the game. And you got the abs, and then you got some of the firms doing consolidation.

[Podcast Host 1]

You know, they're just merging and then.

[Michael Steiner]

Others are keeping them separate brands like first just for me, in my Space. There's a ton of consolidation, there always has been, but like, why is it happening more today? Was it the ABS kind of the push?

I'll give you my take on that and what we've done and how I think the industry's evolved. There is non lawyer ownership both in the UK and Australia. And we looked at those models years ago. And then Arizona happened to be my home. I was raised there. Grade school, high school undergrad at Arizona State.

[Podcast Host 2]

That was home for me.

[Michael Steiner]

So when I saw Arizona evolving into what looked like a UK ABS model, we looked for a path to say, okay, is this how the country is going to go? And if there is going to be outside investment, how on God's green earth.

[Podcast Host 2]

Are we going to compete without it?

[Michael Steiner]

And if Wall street gets their hands in it, which they haven't before, we're not going to be able to spend at a level to keep up. And so at the time ABS was beginning, I thought, well, I have these hundreds of employees that are like family to me and it's my job to support them and their family. They're depending on me to make the right choices for their survival. And the only way I'm going to be able to do that is to have capital to compete. I'm going to have, you know, Morgan's and then many others who are just going to throw dollars into an industry like they did in medical or dental, like an Aspen dental. How on God's green earth, I'm going to lose market share, I'm going to start peeling back employees and these people are going to suffer and it's going to suck. So as a leader, it was my job to find a path forward. So we were one of the first to get an ABS license in Arizona, thinking that ABS was the path of how the country would ultimately fall. And then Utah opened and we were the first to get a license both.

[Podcast Host 2]

In Arizona and Utah.

[Michael Steiner]

Utah has since made some significant changes.

[Podcast Host 2]

Not loving outside investment.

[Michael Steiner]

And so I thought the US would begin to fall jurisdiction by jurisdiction, and.

[Podcast Host 2]

I don't see that any longer.

[Michael Steiner]

So I see other states pushing back other bar associations pushing back an MSO or a managed service org, as is done in, in healthcare normally or even in accounting. There's. It's been done in a lot of professional services industries is the norm or is becoming the norm. So we followed that path as well. So we do have an interest in an MSO that runs services across the board for all of our firms. And through that we have partnered and raised external capital that has Given us an opportunity to continue to grow and expand, both through organic growth and through law firm acquisitions. In the old days, lawyers couldn't sell practice. They're in it till life, till they die, and pray that their kid goes to law school. And I've tried to put my kids on that path, but at the same time, there are people who are aging out or people who want out. They have built really great brands and markets, and we have worked to acquire brands in other markets that we think are viable and great businesses. We will continue to operate and run branded to who they are.

[Podcast Host 1]

That's amazing. First of all, thank you for your transparency.

[Michael Steiner]

We got a big audience of PI Attorneys, and if they're interested in joining forces, then, hey, there you go. You're someone that's open to it.

We are buyers all the time. We look to enter in discussions, probably 10 or 20 of them a year, for the past few years, of looking to make acquisitions of other firms that want out, that either want to completely exit or that want to partner to sell a portion of that. We can then use capital to grow even larger in their markets. And sometimes it is easier to grow an existing brand who's been there 10 or 20 or 30 years than it is to. For me to organically enter a market and spend years building.

[Podcast Host 1]

So super smart. I went down the rabbit hole of all this information. I talked to Crispin, who I believe was a big contributor to uk, and.

[Michael Steiner]

We hired Crispin when we first got abs. And Crispin kept telling me, michael, this is it, and the whole world's gonna go this way. And he was wrong. And he'll acknowledge that it didn't fall the way he thought it. It would fall in the U.S. and that's okay. There are really bright people who find paths to make things work when you need it. And our industry needed capital to be able to do what we do better, to be able to service clients better, to be able to recover greater amounts for our clients. At the end of the day, we are completely aligned with our clients in seeking to make their lives whole and recover those dollars. And the more equipped we are to do that, whether it's through software systems or it's AI or an ability through marketing to reach those clients who need us or to fight insurance carriers and to spend the money to do it, it is to the benefit of our clients.

[Podcast Host 1]

Always thousand percent agree. You got the scale economies, you already got the tech stack, the better buying power from consolidation. So I. I'm with you. I think it's smart.

[Michael Steiner]

It's Also, you know, on the other side of the coin, the other thing.

[Podcast Host 1]

That I've started to uncover is like, okay, well how does the lead gen providers. I won't name names, but everybody knows who I'm talking about.

[Michael Steiner]

How do they compete? Well, the way they compete is it's.

[Podcast Host 1]

Because they buy media nationwide.

[Podcast Host 2]

Correct.

[Michael Steiner]

And the overflow goes to a couple.

[Podcast Host 1]

Particular buyers on the broker side and.

[Michael Steiner]

So they get the buys at a much cheaper rate.

Great. We have worked with some really great lead gen companies and we've worked with.

[Podcast Host 2]

Some really bad ones.

[Michael Steiner]

I still believe in a brand and building a brand, though. I don't have an issue with supplementing that brand with Legion. At the same time, there is a value to it if you work with those who are truthful, honest and real. But when you're buying nationally, your cost is coming down. And then, you know, we've looked at acquisitions of lead gen providers as well into our business model because some of them have a value and it works. And some of them we partnered with.

[Podcast Host 2]

And have really great partnerships.

[Michael Steiner]

You know, coming out of law school today would. Would kill me. But realistically, if you're going to do it and break into a market, there's a path to buy leads, to build a business, to get a cash flow that you can then use to continue.

[Podcast Host 2]

To build a brand.

[Michael Steiner]

So there's a path for it.

[Podcast Host 1]

Michael, this has been amazing. We've covered the gambit and I appreciate the transparency because most of the time.

[Michael Steiner]

People are a little bit more guarded on the info.

We'll tell you everything you want to.

[Podcast Host 1]

Know in the world.

[Michael Steiner]

I don't know what I'm projecting here.

What's the best way for our audience? They ask some questions, they want to.

[Podcast Host 1]

Connect and get in touch with you.

[Podcast Host 2]

I have a firm website, injury lawyers.com so easy.

[Michael Steiner]

And if you send some crazy email inward, somehow they will find me. Because unlike a lot of people, I'm not just in this to market and enjoy my life. I am actually in this every day in my office, every day doing this and here and answering and responding and working. And I'm here to help and I.

[Podcast Host 2]

Love helping others and those people who struggle through issues and problems.

[Michael Steiner]

And I love it.

[Podcast Host 1]

Love it.

[Michael Steiner]

Michael, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[Podcast Host 2]

Thank you.

[Chris Dreyer]

Markets change, channel shift. Capital matters even more every year. The firms that keep winning are the ones building demand. They actually control. If this episode made you think differently about your visibility or your position in the market and you want help turning that into cases, visit Rankings IO we'll see you next time.