C (3:02)

Let's talk about the fundamentals, though. What do you think the fundamentals are of marketing first? And then we'll do the fundamentals maybe of intake, man.

A (3:10)

Good. I always start out with budget media and message, having budget media and message, you know, you know, one, you got to be able to compete. You know, there's some markets like, you know, this across the country where, you know, guys will come to you, firms will come to you and say, we want to be able to crush it, but they don't have the money to be able to compete, you know, so you got to have the budget, you know, and then it's going to be like the media part of it, you know, and also the message, you know, it's like, what are you going to say? You know, so are you going to spend that amount of money for that super bowl ad and just have a spot that just doesn't do anything, you know, so those three components are like some of the fundamentals that we would utilize. And then, you know, every firm's going to be different. There are some firms that they want to hunt rabbits, and then there's some firms that want to hunt elephants. And their fundamentals to them are going to be totally different. They're not looking for speed and lead. You know, we have one firm that they will tell you, they're like, I don't want all those cases. They said, I only want 10 of them. I only want 10 a year, but I don't want to take any of them that are going to be less than a million dollars. Right. So there are firms like that and I think it really depends on the firms, you know. But still, I think a good clean fundamental for us is always budget media and message and being able to bifurcate each of those to really say like okay, budget check, media check, message check. And then being comfortable to be able to go to market with your message.

C (4:29)

I think that's fantastic. I love where you led with budget because they could pick the right channel, but they're under capitalized. Right. You want to go into broadcast television with shoestring budget. I mean, good luck. Right. Same for search. Right. And the message being different and standing out so important can lower those CPMs, like have that viral, you know, maybe you get some extra visibility there, you know, on the channel before I'm kind of beating this. Like let's say we in a vacuum, some random city popped up, it's got a hundred thousand people, maybe the PI attorneys haven't flooded it. But like you know, just in a vacuum, you know, is broadcast first for that top of funnel, is searching first for the bottom of the funnel. Like, like how do you think of just a general, general mix.

A (5:15)

Yeah, you know what it's, it's almost like it's a battle plan is what it is. You know, if you're going to go into a market, Even if it's 100,000 population and you start throwing all this money at TV and billboards and everything else, well, you can't manage what you can't measure. You just can't. I think one of the best ways, and there may be others who may think differently. There may be others who say I'm just going to tear up the whole market and put billboards everywhere. But truthfully, I believe one of the best ways to do it is going into a market digitally, you know, and also having some content to see like what you can pull out of that market and really start to gauge it and really start to and kind of throttle yourself, throttle in your budget, you know, and also. But I think the best thing is having a great battle plan going into a market. You know, if it's one that's underserved, you know, having that good strategy so that you can have some frequency and also show some expertise so that people are coming to you. And then when you start pulling some cases and start dial it, show some dominance in that market and don't let it go.

C (6:12)

I think it's a great answer. And you know, one of the things on the, on the digital, you said the you opened the door. It's like you take meta ads, Facebook ads. I like it because you can have so many messages. Like, and I know there's. You want to have continuity and consistency, but, like, you could do a funnel for nursing. You could do a funnel for dog bites. You could do a funnel versus, like TV or even radio. It's kind of hard to pivot, be creative in your messaging. But Facebook ads, you can take a couple swings at a plate and different practice area types.

A (6:45)

Yeah, a thousand percent. I mean, you know, people always talk about A and B testing. You can A through Z test, like, you just, you just laid it out. I mean, there's a lot of different ways that you can be able to do it. Not only that, I mean, it can actually help lower your cost per case if you're doing it right and paying attention to it as well. You know, I remember, you know, we had a conversation with a personal injury lawyer and one of the things they were like, I don't want to do those things. And they saw Facebook for one side of what they thought it was supposed to be. And like we said to them, it's not about you. It's about the people on the other end. It's not you. We're not going to find people just like you. Because people just like you, they are the lawyer or they have friends that are lawyers. We're not targeting you. We're targeting people that are on this platform as well. So I do love meta ads and I love the fact that you can not just a B test. You can A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, M, N, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V all through the Alphabet. You can do all those different kinds of tests and you can be very nimble with it. You're not confined to 15 seconds or 30 seconds like you would be in broadcast.

C (7:44)

Yeah, yeah. Well said. And, you know, and it's like you said the omnichannel, the, hey, you do just top a funnel, but your search is messed up. You don't have that capture. You're in trouble. And then on the flip side, let's say you got your search dialed in, but no one knows. You don't have any awareness. Like, so it kind of goes hand in hand.

B (8:06)

In personal injury, small information gaps turn into big disadvantages. That's why we published the Personal Injury Mastermind newsletter. Each week it breaks down what's really changing in personal injury. The market, the technology, and the strategies top firms are using to stay ahead. It's Thoughtful, practical, and written for people

C (8:22)

who take growth seriously.

B (8:24)

Subscribe at Newsletter Rankings IO. It's easy to get obsessed with driving down your cost per lead and mastering the digital game, but generating a massive amount of attention is only half the battle. What happens next is where most law firms hemorrhage money. And Eric has some hard truths about where those marketing dollars are actually going.

C (8:46)

You know, you talked about the leak, right? Hey, our job produced the leads, but then, hey, their job's the leak. And what do you see there? Like, where do you advise? What are some of those fundamentals on the, on the intake side?

A (8:59)

I believe us agencies, we have a responsibility to ask them and talk to them and, and make sure, even before we engage with them, like on what their processes are. Because there's nothing worse than inviting good people into a bad process, right? And I almost feel like if we are doing our due diligence and doing these great campaigns, then one of the first things that we need to do is make sure that they can handle it. You know, I remember Michael Mogul and I, we were talking about this before and you know, we talked about how if you have all this advertising, you could have a great advertising campaign, right? But if you bring it in to a system that's broken, nothing will work, not at all. And then they'll end up pointing the finger. And the one who normally gets the finger pointed at them is usually the agency. And when in the beginning we have to give them some accountability, you know, it's a two way street. It's not just, you know, your problems go away the minute you write a check to us or you pay us. It's like, okay, great, we're going to partner together. Let's make sure that you can handle this. Because, you know, part of being able to compete is not just, you know, do you have enough money to spend, it's also, you know, okay, do you know what to do when these come in? Do you have systems and processes? You know, how does intake happen? Or when John at the front desk isn't here and you say John as your intake, what happens when John's out sick today? You know, those are the important things that you have to think about.

C (10:23)

Yeah. I had a conversation literally last week and was digging in, we had a good marketing plan talking about intake. I'm like, well, what's, what's the chase? Like when somebody contacts you and sends an email, like, oh, we send a text and an email.

A (10:36)

Wow.

C (10:36)

I was like, what else? Like, come on, like, what else? You know, did you call them eight times that day. You know, do pretext. Did you do different messaging to create urgency? Maybe, maybe an empathy message and an urgency message. Like so many levels. I think the check the box too is like, oh, we got a. We got Smith AI. They're. They're handling our intake. I'm like, oh, oh.

A (10:59)

You know, Chris, I think it's to the fault of a lot of the. The money lawyers. Right. And I would say it where we got our client this. They've created the shopping mentality into the consumers. And so now the consumers are starting to check for lawyers. Like they shop for an item, and so they're like, you know, hey, can you take my case? And what do you think I can get? They're wanting to know these things in the beginning, like, what do you think we can get? But they've conditioned the audience by the multiple TV ads or Internet ads by saying, we got our client this. So now there's an expectancy. Oh, that person had a car wreck on the TV ad. The lawyer said it, so maybe I can get that much too. So now it creates the shopping mentality for them. And then people start to think, you know, if I see a lawyer that has more frequency on tv, maybe they're a good lawyer. You know, and so there's, there's a lot that has to happen from, you know, the law firms end as well, and they have a duty and responsibility whenever they start marketing as well.

C (12:00)

You know, it goes hand in hand, like you said. Yeah. One of the things you got at VIP marketing is you got this case cost calculator. So talk to me about how you guys develop that, what maybe that uncovered through its iteration, and talk to me about that.

A (12:15)

Well, you know, a lot of times when you get into these engagements. Right. Well, what happens is, like, we'll ask them, okay, well, what's your goal? Everyone wants to say their goal. And then you'll say like, okay, where are you now? And then that's where the hesitation comes in. So with a case cost calculator, what we're doing is we're trying to show them what the pathway is or what the goal is. This is how many leads we need coming through. So now what it does for our agency, it says, okay, remember in the beginning we talked about we needed to have 200 leads a month, just throwing a number out there, and now we have kind of some guardrails to kind of show them what it could look like. Because in the beginning they all want to know, like, they want guarantees and we can't give them that. We can't give them that. But what we can do is guide or manage the expectation upfront. And that's what our case cost calculator's doing. It's saying, okay, if this is your revenue goal and this is what your average case value is, and here's, and this is your closing ratio, this is how many appointments we need, this is how many cases you need. You know, for them, they look at it, they're like, wow, this is what I really need. So now it gives them kind of guidance. I would probably bet you a ton of lawyers out there don't know how many appointments or how many leads they need per week or what their closing ratio is to be able to get to what is considered success for them.

C (13:34)

A thousand percent agree. And I also just think too, it's, you know, when you start talking about wanted case percentages and things like that and you hear these, hey, we want a 94, 95% want it. Well, like, well what, what channel are you talking about? Are you talking about your brand stuff like, okay, let's hit that 95. We talking about cold stuff maybe, maybe even the pay per click maybe, you know, maybe, who knows? And I, then that percentage goes down and you'd still be happy. Maybe then 80% the non branded versus the brand and how you can segment those. So interesting. I think part of it you creating that awareness. Then they say, oh well, I don't, I don't have these. Well, like, hey, step one, you know, so let's just say that you got, the firm comes in, they want to spend the big money with the agency, but they don't have those numbers. Are you like, hey, here's this person, they can help you with this. Like what's the talk track then?

A (14:27)

Yeah, it goes back to what we talked about in the beginning. Like we have to have like that roadmap to whatever success looks like for them, you know, and if it's going to be that case count, you know, and sometimes we've had, you know, firms realize that they need to try and get more out of their cases, right? So if you're getting, let's just say if you're getting your average case volume is $7,000 per case or whatever. It's like, and maybe you need to try and get 10,000 per case. Then you ask them like, you know, hey guys, you know, what's your system? I mean, are you guys doing these case reviews where you can kind of bring all the attorneys together and you might have one who's more seasoned than the other working on the case and say, man, you could probably get an extra 25,000 out of this case if you look at X, right? So sometimes a case goal calculator does a little more than just saying, you know, this is how many appointments you need. It could help you with the undiscovereds inside of the firm that they may not be aware of because sometimes, you know, they may be happy with $7,000 cost per case, but in order for them to do that, you know, they got to do tons of getting in. You know, then they gro some cases. You know, there's like, hey, we might have signed, you know, 200, but we're going to, we're going to get rid of 50. And you know, that changes their numbers. So sometimes they have to realize like, maybe we need to step it up. And you know, now you hear more firms talking about not being afraid to go to court, you know, or being we're trial attorneys and, you know, and trying to give off that vibe, like, you know, hey, we're going to get you more. And I think some of the firms are realizing, you know what, we need to take that up. Sometimes they need to raise their own rates is what they need to do.

C (16:01)

It makes it a lot more palatable, you know, on those incremental gains instead of like, hey, I want to double my practice. Well, you got to double your leads as opposed to maybe you just increase your wanted percentage a little bit, get a little bit more on the fees and maybe, maybe you only need to increase your leads 25%, you know, or 50% because it all kind of works together.

B (16:22)

You don't always need to double your ad spend to double your revenue. Small incremental wins in your operations can completely change your roi. But eventually you hit a ceiling if you only rely on capturing bottom of the funnel demand. Eric argues the traditional marketing funnel is actually holding firms back. And the secret to long term dominance comes down to a budget most law firms don't even realize they need.

C (16:42)

We mentioned this a little bit, but. And maybe this is antiquated, the funnel, right? You get top attention, you know, middle consideration and then the bottom decision. Like, like how do you think about that when you're creating a marketing strategy?

A (16:59)

I can't own this line because I think it's more than a funnel, it's more of a flywheel. Because at some point, you know, in that what we need to start doing is asking for referrals, you know, and growing that referral based business as well, and if you have them in just a funnel, at some point the funnel ends, it just drops, you know, and then someone has to physically pick them up and put them back in the top of the funnel, or hopefully they remember us. But if you keep the flywheel going, they have a great experience. I mean, you have a great marketing plan. You attract them, they sign on, you treat them well, you get them a great settlement, or you go to trial for them, and then, you know, they're happy. They go back into your flywheel, they're telling their moms, their friends, everyone in church about you, and it all starts over again. And then that flywheel just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, I don't hear of a lot of firms having a referral budget. It's always, I want to turn it on tv, I want to turn it online. It's like, okay, how about community? What's your community budget? Right? You know, I'm not talking just, you know, going to get school supplies and dropping them off, but what's your community budget? You're asking a lot. And one thing we have to, you know, tell these law firms is that you got to remember, you are asking for withdrawals from the community, but you're not making any deposits. And, you know, I think, you know, there's a few firms out there that do really, really well, and they have a heart for it, and the community will give back to them. Like, if they pulled off of the traditional media, you know, their referrals are so strong, it could help feed them, you know, and I think that's something, you know, that people need to focus on. So, you know, the funnel needs to be the flywheel now.

C (18:34)

So. Well said. And then that wheel spins faster and faster and kind of all powers itself, right? I think that's one of the things that these referral models miss out on is the systemic marketing. The clients, you know, coming from the past. And, you know, you see these legacy firms that, hey, they were started by the father or the, the parent, and it's like they got the business coming in because they've been in business for 20 years, 30 years. So they look at those, hey, our, our CAC is under a thousand bucks. I'm like, ah, you know, you're not a startup. One other thing, I like to toss these ideas top the dome. I see a lot of people, like you said, do really well with the community. I think we've had some guests on here that, that really care, and they do great job. But one thing I've always Thought about is like, where does the pro bono legal work come in? Right. All these attorneys need local services, ad reviews, you need Google reviews. Like I don't know, you're going to spend. Some people, they spend a lot of money on the grassroots marketing. Like could we hire a couple associate attorneys and let them do some, some cases like just to get the pipeline going.

A (19:43)

Man, that's a great point. You know, before I got into even doing the legal space, I worked a lot into the automotive space. And the automotive space is dang near identical to the legal space. You know, the things you can say, can't say by state, you know, co op for automotive. And one of the things that was really big in automotive was just, you know, like the, the bdc, you know, how they set appointments, you know, which is just like the legal intake, you know, part of it. But I really think that automotive did a great job in being visible within the community. A lot of times, you know, not every lawyer or law firm, they're visible when they want something. And I, and I believe the most important thing is for any law firm is to integrate themselves within to the firm. You know, you could have one lawyer who's visible for fighting for the undeserved and it gives that firm a reputation. I'll give you an example of one that comes to mind that you bring up this topic. It was probably more than 12 years ago I became friends with Kenny Harrell from Joy Law Firm. I don't know if you know those guys, good people and they are a personal entry law firm through and through and they will go to court, not afraid for it. And years ago what they did was there was a high school football team and the high school football team had an undefeated record. They were kind of robbed from going to the state championship. And what the Jory Law Firm did was they stepped in and started defending them to, you know, the South Carolina high school league and all that other stuff. And, and they didn't do it for money, but what they did was they made a huge community deposit. That entire town, all those people. Who do you think is the law firm that they would want to go to? After a while it was Joy Law Firm. And so, you know, that's a great example of, you know, just doing some good within the community and it coming back to you, it wasn't really like there was a budget but you know, for them to say, oh, we're going to allocate this much time for our attorneys. But what they did was they saw a community need and they stepped in. And people are smarter than you think. People in our community are smarter than you think. They know what's BS and what's not. And what they saw from them was no bs. And they saw them defend that same high school team, you know, that had some kids probably go on to the NFL. But they remembered that, and that was great for their firm. And that's what I mean by having a community deposit. I think it's one of the things that every firm should pay attention to, you know, especially if they're in those markets like you talked about earlier, that has like 100,000 people, then great. It's not as hard for you. And if you talk about you wanting to beat like the big firms, you know, or the big giant firms that come into your market, that's how you beat them. That's how you stand tall in that market. And they will remember that for you.

C (22:27)

You know, I couldn't help and I was kind of chuckling inside my head. I was just thinking, denver attorneys, you've got a mission here with the football.

A (22:37)

You got an opportunity.

C (22:39)

Be part of your community. Too soon. Too soon. Denver fans.

A (22:44)

Oh, man.

C (22:45)

Any who Eric, this has been a ton of fun.

A (22:48)

Yeah, man.

C (22:48)

Love chopping it up for our audience listening that has questions for you that wants to learn about more of your company. Like, what's the best way to get

A (22:55)

in touch with you, man? I'm on all socials at Eric M. Elliott, man. Or you can go to my website, Eric Elliott dot com. I just love doing good things with good people, man. And Chris, man, it's just an honor, man, and a pleasure and a privilege to be able to chop it up with you, my friend.

C (23:10)

Thanks, Eric.

B (23:11)

Thanks for coming on the show.

A (23:12)

Awesome, man. Thank you.

B (23:15)

A huge thanks to Eric M. Elliott for dropping some serious marketing knowledge today. Here's the biggest takeaway. Stop treating your marketing like a simple transaction. Lock in your budget, media and message and start making real community deposits so your flywheel spins on its own. Ready to actually dominate your market. Rankings is the relentless marketing agency helping elite personal injury firms secure top search real estate and sign more cases. We believe in proof over promises. Come see the proof for yourself at Rankings IO, I'm Chris Stryer. I'll catch you next time on Personal Injury Mastermind.