Podcast Host (1:59)

injured in a tree fall accident first, you know, tell me about the case. Tell me about that scenario. Just such an odd story to read from the outside.

Michael Kelly (2:07)

Yeah, man, things are happening over here, huh? That was a big one for us. That's our biggest to date. So very happy to secure that on behalf of the clients. Kind of a strange case as many of them Are when you get judgments like that, right. They're kind of not your stereotypical rear end accident all the time. So these folks were living in a rental home. They walked outside a huge, you know, like 40 Foot Tree had just been going for a while. Landlord was unnoticed that there were some problems on the property. It comes down strikes all of them. We got some body cam footage, we got experts involved and a couple years later, a good result for them. So happy to do that for the clients.

Podcast Host (2:39)

Unreal. I gotta tell you, I have a decent amount of real estate. So that just put the fear in me of.

Michael Kelly (2:45)

You and me both, man. Right, you and me both.

Podcast Host (2:48)

Before we click start on the pod, we were talking, you know, hey, you know, you've had this unique arc, right, where you guys have just really, you know, found what's, what's working and you kind of broke through some different milestones and you mentioned that, you know, hey, a lot of people are stuck at a certain point and you know, in that two to $4 million range, what's the move? What's the move that takes you to that next level and, and talk to me about your story.

Michael Kelly (3:14)

It's so interesting. This business is super interesting right now. I don't think it's ever been like this in kind of the course of time. You know, there was this old guard that didn't have access to the things that we have access to now. And if you're not grabbing onto the technology and the advancements that are taking place not only in our business, but any business, I mean, you're going to be left behind. So met a lot of law firms. A lot of law firms I talked to are kind of in that range. Many of them don't want to get any bigger. There are headaches when you get bigger. A lot of headaches when you add employees and overhead and, and all the different things that, you know, liabilities and vulnerabilities everywhere when you get a little larger. And I can't imagine what it's going to be like when we get a little bigger than we are now. But you know, a lot of people do want to break through that.

Podcast Host (3:53)

Let's start with the front end, the marketing, right? A lot of the people listening are like, how do you get the leads? You know, there's a lot more than just the leads. But talk to me about, you know, what changed with the marketing. I know I've watched some of your videos and you've got crispy, you know, introduced to the world and television, but like doing TV and Doing it right. I mean, that's a big investment. That's a big risk. That's a big like. Talk to me about the advertising changes that you did to get the leads.

Michael Kelly (4:20)

Yeah, sure. I mean, that stuff is scary because when you're in that, I'll call it smaller just because we're a little bigger now. But it's certainly not, you know, small to a lot of businesses, but that like 1 to 5 million dollar range, it's hard to get the share of voice that you need on a platform like television to actually make an impact. It's so funny, man. Like my first year I had a partner at the time and we saved up some money to get a billboard. It was the shittiest looking billboard you've ever seen in your life. We threw it in, you know, a part of town. I think we paid like a thousand bucks for it. I thought the phone was going to be ringing off the hook, you know, as soon as this thing went up. We didn't get a single call.

Podcast Host (4:52)

Right.

Michael Kelly (4:52)

And it's very much like that with these huge platforms of advertising like billboards, television, you know, lsa, pbc, social media, all that stuff. You have to have the amount of money that it takes to make an impact and then you have to have the guts to stay with it, you know, when it doesn't quite get off the ground. So that's, you know, that's, that's getting, you know, a little bigger. You know, I would say into the hundreds of cases signed up a month. But for me, you know, the challenge wasn't really the advertising. You know, when you're closer to the ground and getting off the ground. I think the grassroots stuff is super important. Your referral resources, providing excellent service to clients. Even today, like 20 or 25% of our cases come from existing or previous clients or their friends, family, cousins, brothers, sisters, whatever it may be. So the service aspect is huge and you can never let go of that. But the cases weren't my problem, you know, my problem was taking on too much at once and not having the operation set up and kind of sinking the ship with all of the work we were producing, but not having the systems in place to manage, you know, that uptick.

Podcast Host (5:51)

So let's jump to the operations, let's jump right in. I mean, so when you started to develop the eos, the entrepreneurial operating system or kind of this, this framework, was it maybe a hire an ops person? Like, when did it start? When did you start fixing that bottleneck or that constraint in terms of Your firm.

Michael Kelly (6:09)

So you, you just hit the two biggest things that were my challenges on the head. It was the person, the people, the culture, right? And I had no idea how important that was a couple of years ago. And frankly, my culture sucked. You know, people hated me. They hated my law firm. They, you know, even the people working within it, it was just a means to an end for them. And, you know, I knew that that needed to change. I didn't know how important it was until we started to change it. And I saw, you know, some of the good things that came out of it. I made a great hire with Tim Paoli. He's our CEO. He runs our day to day. He's, you know, very, very bright, even brilliant chief operating officer. That has made all of the difference for us. He has been kind of the, you know, the tool that we've used to go out there and get the best people that we possibly can. And then the other side of it was the accountability, right? And I actually just had this conversation with our managing attorney last night. And then again this morning, not too long ago, I was in a room saying, hey, Dave or Pete or Bill, you know, can you take care of this thing? We need this done. And then I'd move on to the next thing, right? But Dave, Pete, and Bill wouldn't necessarily do the thing that I asked them to do, right? So three or four months later, when I expected this thing to be completely wrapped up, buttoned and done, it hadn't even been touched, right? Because Dave, Pete, and Bill go out, they pick up a phone call or get pulled in a different direction, and then it just sits there. So the EOS component was pivotal for us to increase the accountability, the buy in, you know, tracking things week to week, running the law firm on data. You know, at this point, I'm a lawyer, but more so than that, you know, with the seat that I sit in now, I'm a businessman, right? So, you know, I'm running laws, my business. And I think that the tools that I'm learning now and you know, that the world is being exposed to is transferable into any single business that you want to do. So, you know, and you hear stories, these people learn these skills. They were in law, and they say, I just don't want to do that anymore. I'm not passionate for it. That's not me. I love what we do, you know, I love that we can service our clients and provide great representation in Massachusetts and the surrounding areas. But if we wanted to do something else, I think the things that we're learning and implementing into our business could raise any business into whatever we wanted it to be. The principles are the same.

Chris Dreyer (8:12)

If you're going to scale your law firm, you have to establish systems of accountability. Michael just mentioned eos, the entrepreneurial operating system. We use it at rankings too. Think of it as a highly disciplined framework to get your leadership team aligned and executing. One of the core elements of EOS is the L10 meeting, a weekly meeting where department heads review their KPIs or key performance indicators. Instead of just guessing how the firm is doing, you're looking at hard data every single week to identify exactly where the bottlenecks are. I wanted to talk to Michael about how he has made EOS work for

Podcast Host (8:42)

him and his business. Yeah, one of the things I kind of wanted to get granular, you know, on the scorecard, for example, you know, you have your, your weekly L10s. Like, what's some of the, the metrics on the firm side that you are really dialed into and like that you're looking at? Is it, is it cac? What are some of the metrics that you look out, you know, for our audience? Like, oh, I need to track that.

Michael Kelly (9:04)

I don't think that there's, you know, an out of the box solution. Of course we all try, you know, some of us track the Same or similar KPIs, but they're different from business to business. And I would say with eos, you need to make it your own. Right. I read Traction, you know, I read Fireproof, which kind of takes traction and makes it a law firm solution. We don't use all of it. You know, we use what works for us and we may take things that we like and change it a little bit. Right. So I think that that's, you need to be flexible with eos because it can be stringent. And if it's too stringent, I think it's hard to adopt. Right. You know, particularly, you know, holding yourself accountable and holding your team accountable. If they don't like it and it's not like, doesn't feel good to do, you're not going to get the full buy in that you need. But with respect to, you know, like the KPIs and stuff, we do an L10 once a week that's run by department heads. Not me, not my coo. We were involved when we kind of got this plane off the ground. But it's their responsibility on a weekly basis to run their meetings with information. So they are in a room with data on a Board looking at it, talking about it. The meeting has an agenda. They don't just go in there and say, you know, hey, we're looking at this new product. All right, guys, break. We'll see you in a week. No, no, no. They're in there talking about the same six to eight things every week. Of course, things come up. You know, fires need to be put out, and they handle that. And then on a monthly basis, the head of that department puts a record together with, you know, a chiseled and kind of smaller pieces of the larger KPIs for the department and presents that to myself and Tim Bailey, our CEO. So, you know, there's a lot of ways to do that, and that's kind of the level that we're at. But if you're a smaller firm, and, you know, we've come back to this a couple of times because I think a lot of people are in that. In that spot. You know, make it your own. You know, you may not have a huge team and department heads and all that. And the worst part about running a business is being every department. You know, being hr, being the lawyer, you know, being marketing, being, you know, business development, being intake, being financed. That's hard. You know, you can put the right people in the right seats. That's when it gets a little easier.

Podcast Host (10:57)

I want to take a step back because one of the things you said, like, hey, we've always had the marketing, but like, a lot of the audience, they're struggling, right? They need the leads, right? Take TV broadcast. I see a ton of clients still very successful with broadcast, right? But do you jump in if you can't be a top three? You know, do you. Do you wait until you got the capital deploy to be the number one or number two? Like, how do you approach, like, some of these channels, let's say TV and then maybe digital?

Michael Kelly (11:24)

God, man, such a good question. And who knows, you know what I mean? There's plenty of money given out now. I think it's has a lot to do with your appetite for risk. You know, if you want to grow and you want to do what Maybe the top 5 or 10% of the companies in our space are doing, you have. You have to be comfortable with some of that. Again, running a couple TV ads for a month or two is not going to do anything for your bottom line. You might as well walk over to the toilet and just flush it down or light it on fire in your backyard, right? So, you know, I think the grassroots stuff, you know, setting up your referral relationships, giving your clients great service. I hated hearing those things because they're all long game. You know, everyone wants immediate satisfaction. They want things done today or yesterday, and it's just not like that. You can't snap your fingers and hit the fast forward button on the clock. You have to go through the tough times, you have to struggle, you have to learn. And you would say the same thing. I mean, you guys have had crazy growth, man. How many mistakes have you made? You know, they're, they kill you sometimes, right? So it's like you have to be willing to face them and then come out on the other side. Which, you know, sounds kind of silly and goofy, but just is what it is. You know, you're going to screw up, you're going to make bad decisions, you're going to waste money. I still waste money all the time. All of the time. We make bad decisions with deployment of capital. So, you know, it's just part of it, I think. But if you can really focus on the stuff that does work, you know, like the grassroots stuff, I don't, I don't do as much of that anymore. We have a team that does that now. Right. And it's very successful. But we measure it and we have meetings about it and we, you know, we speak to the things that are causing problems and we look at trends. Did we send sign up more this month than last month and more this quarter than last quarter. And if those numbers start to go down, you know, we get into a room with, you know, good minds and say why? And we try to answer those questions. So if you're not doing that even on a smaller scale, then I've used this before, but you're just kind of wandering around, you know what I mean? You have to have a plan in business and it certainly relates to our business.

Podcast Host (13:12)

I totally agree. And you know, especially when you're small, doing those things that typically, you know, I think everything can scale to some degree, but getting belly to belly and shaking somebody's hand and developing a referral relationship and really nurturing those, those are the, you know, lowest cost cases you can ever, you're ever going to receive as opposed to when you start deploying, whether it's Google Ads or TV or

Michael Kelly (13:34)

radio or what have you, and you have time for it when you're a little smaller too. Like, I tell this story all the time. I was working in my living room for like the first year and a half of my law firm and I got a fractured sternum case. Probably settle it for like $500,000. Now it settled for 60 grand, right? Just because I was new, the insurance company probably took advantage of me, but the fee it produced was $20,000. Dude, at the time I was like, I'm rich. Like, 20. I've never had $20,000 in my life. And that's why we pivoted and started focusing on personal injury. But, you know, for those smaller law firms, they're doing everything, you do have the time, you know what I'm saying? So you obviously have to work the cases, but, you know, don't skimp on that business development time, that relationship, building, that client service, because it will pay back whether or not you want to scale and grow or not.

Podcast Host (14:17)

Talk to me about the intake side. So right now, there's the shiny objects, right? There's the AI, you know, there's the, the agents that can do the calls. There's a lot of different approaches on the intake side. Talk to me about, like, how you're keeping that wanted conversion rate really high and, and how you think about intake.

Michael Kelly (14:36)

Yeah, sure. So 92%, right? That's what we, that's what we go for on our wanted leads. And I'll be super interested to kind of see how this whole thing develops with the artificial intelligence and talking to a piece of technology that's not a person, because it's getting pretty close to feeling more seamless, right? I think at this point you can still kind of tell. But what we've learned, you know, through the research and then deploying some of this stuff after hours and on the weekends, is that a lot of people don't care.

Podcast Host (15:00)

Right.

Michael Kelly (15:01)

We actually give them the option, do you want to continue with this, you know, artificial representative, or do you want to be transferred to a human being? And a lot of them say, I'll just continue on with this. Right. They're asking good questions. This will be sent to the legal team, and then we'll be contacted Monday morning, you know, for instance, if that's what the policy or procedure is.

Podcast Host (15:16)

You know that the interesting thing is, like, I look at like the pros, cons. It's like, well, if you got 10 calls that came in at once, well, your AI can answer all 10 right in parallel, 100%.

Michael Kelly (15:26)

And they never miss a phone call. Right?

Podcast Host (15:28)

Right. And then like the intake specialists, like, if they don't document, even if the self recordings and stuff like into the CRM, well, the AI is going to have all that, right? So they can call three months later and still have, you know, information about the Case.

Michael Kelly (15:42)

And that's one of the things they're talking about even more now is like deploy that representative as your chaser. You know, they can send the emails, they can send the text, they can make the follow up phone calls. And then if someone picks up and can get transferred to a live rep, which was a ton of man hours and labor, right, to have someone Sunday morning, Sunday night, Saturday, Friday, you know, Thursday at midnight, right? Where now it's like it's possible to never lose a lead. You know, it's interested in contacting your law firm. Because if that piece of technology is following up on everything a thousand percent,

Podcast Host (16:11)

I'm like, you know, on the agency side, I'm like that buy or die mindset because we're providing value. And I think about that on the,

Chris Dreyer (16:17)

on the PI side too. Like, if they got a good case

Podcast Host (16:19)

and if it's, even if it's past 14, 30 days, it's still in the statute. You know, you get like, I think we just talked to individual that owned a product called Neato.

Chris Dreyer (16:28)

I was like, hey, after 30 days,

Podcast Host (16:30)

maybe you got your chase cadence and you stop at 30 days. Well, what's it hurt to put this tech on that for the 30 day plus?

Michael Kelly (16:37)

Couldn't agree more. And they actually presented to us at the last conference that we were at, and they're saving cases that otherwise would have been, you know, marked turndown or gone. And then think about this, man. What if that $17.6 million case calls you at Sunday at 2 in the morning and no one gets it and then they call the next law firm who does have these, you know, these things implemented at a law firm. Someone picks up and then it goes to them. I mean, do the math on 35 or 40% of 17.6 million, right? That pays for a lot of TV advertising you're talking about or the billboards that people want to hang. So you have to have this stuff and you know, like the solos. Like I remember going to court, dude, for a case management conference. You get there at nine, out at one, I'm missing phone calls. It used to drive me nuts. Like, who was that that called? They didn't leave a voicemail. I called back. No one picked up. You know, but it's like you have to catch every single one of these opportunities if you're going to take yourself and your business seriously. And you know, what a wonderful way to do it.

Podcast Host (17:31)

Yeah, I mean, and that definitely solves the 24, 7 and at least gives you a backup. Like, you know, there's there's definitely the advantages of a person that can be empathetic and can kind of deviate from a script and answer the true questions they're asking. But. But, yeah, I. I couldn't agree more.

Chris Dreyer (17:53)

Leveraging AI to lock down your intake 247 is an absolute game changer. It means you never miss a lead. No matter. But capturing demand is only half the battle. Once that case comes in the door, the human element takes over. As Michael realized, you can have all the leads in the world, but if your internal culture is fractured, your firm will inevitably hit a wall.

Podcast Host (18:14)

I kind of want to move to something you mentioned earlier, too. You said, hey, we were intentional about the culture. Like, we wanted to be intentional. And you turned it around like you've got a thriving practice. What were some of the things that you did? Take me through that and how you turn the culture to get that alignment.

Michael Kelly (18:30)

Yeah. So I was a guy, and I'm not afraid to admit it now because we've come out on the other side that didn't really love going to his law firm. You know, I didn't love the people that we had employed. They didn't believe in my vision. They didn't believe in, you know, what I was trying to accomplish, the help that we were trying to provide, while also, you know, doing well for the law firm and the people that worked at the law firm, the families that the law firm supports. We have 85 or 90 employees now, and I take a lot of pride in the fact that they come to work and we're able to compensate them for the great work that they do for us and our clients. And there's a trick, you know, that supports their families, their friends, their, you know, people send money back home. We have folks working in other countries. I mean, it's beautiful to be able to go to sleep at night and say to yourself, you know, I had a part in building this thing that has had an effect and a positive effect on so many people. And the culture thing, you know, I think, man. And I never would have said this might be the most important thing you have. Like, when I was listening to, like, Bill Biggs back in the day, no idea what the guy was talking about. Like, love Bill Biggs, you know what I'm saying? But, like, I just. That wasn't something that I was focused in on. I was more, you know, how do I get the value up? How do I sign more cases? But if your shop isn't great and the work that the people at your shop are providing Your clients isn't fantastic, then you are going to lose, you know, in the long run. And we went through, you know, a period of time where, you know, you get bad reviews or complaints come in or this, that the other. And we finally step back and said this needs to be fixed. And when we fixed it and you know, we're going on, you know, three or four years now since we really got in there and put our hands on it, the law firm is completely just rocket shift it to another level. You know, like I honestly don't think we have a single employee that doesn't love their job. And that is very, very difficult to say.

Podcast Host (20:10)

That's incredible. That's rare. Gotta imagine too, you know, that, that with a long weekend, a four day weekend and like people are ready to come back to work, like they're not dreading that 100%.

Michael Kelly (20:19)

And we do all that, we, we give unlimited PTO. You know, we, we look at it. But if someone is performing well, take seven or eight weeks vacation. That's not something that bothers me now. You know, if they take advantage of it, that's different. You have to have things to catch that and you know, have upfront, honest conversations. But you know, we give a lot to our employees too, and that's important. They have to feel like you got their back, you know, and I feel like our employees do. There are easy ways to do that, that it's, it's funny. I'm sure you've looked at this too. But like you, if you polled an employee, what's most important to you? And we did this like six months ago, it's like 30% pay, you know, it's like, it's all that other stuff, you know, that makes up for, you know, whether or not this person's having a great experience at your business. And we learned that and we've really been obsessed with it since. And like I said, it's, it's, it's really paid back. Not only just like in the feel good and like wanting to go into your business and spend time with these people, but also on the bottom line on the piano.

Podcast Host (21:12)

That's incredible. Talk to me about some quantum leap roles, right? You said, hey, our COO killer, right? You know, are there any other roles that were like, man, I hired this and it was like a quantum leap. Like, like it was like, I think for myself personally and I'm like, why did I wait so long for a cfo? Like, why did I wait so long?

Chris Dreyer (21:30)

Like it's just immensely valuable.

Podcast Host (21:33)

Same for Like a VP hr. But like, for you, what were some of those quantum hires, dude, Scary to,

Michael Kelly (21:39)

to go spend the money on these people. Because I've been watching a little bit of James Helm stuff and like one of his keys to hiring is find 10 out of 10 talent, pay him 12 out of 10 money. I couldn't agree more. You have to get the best in business or you're going to be offering a product that is inferior to your competitor, who is probably right down the street, right? Particularly in my business. So we've done a lot of promoting from within. Our managing attorney now was an associate attorney when he began. You know, our director heads have all been with us for, you know, a longer period of time, some shorter. But you know, like, they're invested in the culture and believe in the culture. Not easy to find these people, you know what I'm saying? And one of the hardest things to do, which we just did yesterday, was find someone that we thought very, very experienced this, that the other we sent him. Our employment agreement came back with like a million edits. You know, things that, you know, it's just like the edits were well thought out. Like crazy intelligent individual. Like you could tell just him as a lawyer, he would be exceptional, but just didn't quite fit into what we were doing. And not necessarily because he was challenging, you know, the employment agreement, which I completely respect and I think everyone should read those closely. But just the way that it was done, right, A phone call, hey man, like, you know, really excited. These things don't sit well. Can we talk about them? Would have been way different than like a three page email to our HR director that was like aggressive and this, that the other. It's like the end of the day, bro, you're still applying for a job here, you know what I'm saying? Like, we don't have to hire you. And I didn't love doing this, but I had a meeting set up for in the morning and I canceled 10 minutes before just because like it didn't sit right. And I've made that mistake before. And I said to myself, there's other people out there that, that could fill this role and be a better fit for us. So I don't want to introduce that into our culture. And it was hard, you know, and I felt bad about it afterwards. Like I felt sick almost because I, I don't want to make a mistake. But you have to, you have to make these mistakes as the head of the snake and, and live with them afterwards.

Podcast Host (23:30)

Super smart. We've all been there, right? And you, you hire the person and they start and you think they're going to be amaz, not amazing. And then you hire the person and then someone exceeds expectations. And it's just, it's such a challenge. No matter how good your hiring funnel and interview questions are a hundred percent,

Michael Kelly (23:47)

there's gotta be so much trust, you know, with your group. Like our CFO started as my assistant like 12 years ago, you know what I'm saying? So there's been like this promoting from within and being around people that you really trust every day is so important because when you are the head of a company, a growing company, the target on your back gets bigger, right? From competitors, from clients, from you know, like all of the ethical, state, federal regulations. Like you have to run a tight shop and at the end of the day when you have a hundred people running around, you're the one that has to answer for everything that they do. So you know, you constantly have to have your finger on the pulse and making sure that you guys are doing things the right way. Which is why I think the trust is so important. And one of the things that I think is, you know, kind of cool to bring up that others might be facing that are trying to, to scale law firm from a younger age is that I had all these like older lawyers looking at a 35 year old being like, I'm all, I've been doing this for 30 years, why should I listen to this kid? And they were probably right with respect to the law, right? But like they didn't know how to run a business, you know, and they just, you know, if someone's not going to believe in your vision and go down that, that path with you, you got to get them out. Because you know, even one person that's kind of loud enough with some respect or you know, kind of some cachet in the office, it can turn quick on you. So anyone listening, be very careful about the people you bring in. And even if it feels good and it's easy, say no and take the time, right? This whole fire, you know, higher, slow, fire, fast. It sucks to live because we all need people, you know, in there doing their job. But you know, the wrong person can

Podcast Host (25:16)

really cost you so much, so many hard lessons. And for me too, it's like, I can hear you.

Michael Kelly (25:22)

You've been going through them too.

Podcast Host (25:23)

Man, oh man. It's like to me, the people component, like, that's when I was excited to implement KPIs for people because then it's like it's not be like it's the number, right? Like you're not hitting the number. Right, as opposed to being kind of subject.

Michael Kelly (25:38)

I'm not. I'm not mad at you.

Chris Dreyer (25:40)

I like it.

Michael Kelly (25:40)

You know, it just is what it is, right? Yeah, yeah, but.

Podcast Host (25:44)

Yeah, but it's so tough, but so necessary for leverage to grow. And you guys are growing like crazy. I mean, how many offices you have in Massachusetts now? I mean.

Michael Kelly (25:53)

Oh, God, man, we got like 10 or 12 in Massachusetts starting to creep into southern New Hampshire and northern Connecticut. So we'll, you know, we'll see. We'll take it step by step and try to make some. Some good decisions and learn from some of the bad ones we made in the past. But, you know, if you run a good office and provide a good service, sky's the limit.

Podcast Host (26:10)

Well said. Well said, Michael. This has been amazing for our audience. Listen. And maybe as a case in Boston, maybe as in any of your jurisdictions wants to reach out or has questions about the podcast, what's the best way to get in touch?

Michael Kelly (26:21)

You can call us. Our number is 617-444-4444. And our website is callkellycallford.com and Chris, let me tell you, man, it's been a pleasure. I really appreciate you guys having me on and hope to see you in Phoenix next year, man.

Podcast Host (26:35)

Yes, sir. Thanks, Michael.

Michael Kelly (26:36)

Really appreciate it.

Chris Dreyer (26:40)

A huge thanks to Michael Kelly for sharing his journey with us today. Scaling past that two to four million dollars mark isn't about working harder. It's about taking off that lawyer hat and putting on that CEO hat. Micah realized to experience quantum growth, you have to stop trying to run every single department. You have to build a culture of trust, bring in elite talent, and lean into operational frameworks like eos. To win in today's highly competitive PI landscape, you have to treat your firm like a business. And part of running a successful business is partnering with people who actually deliver results.

Podcast Host (27:10)

Results.

Chris Dreyer (27:11)

If you're ready to dominate your market and want an SEO and marketing partner that operates on proof over promises, head on over to Rankings IO. I'm Chris Dreyer, and this has been Personal Injury Mastermind. Catch you next time.