C (3:20)

Geez. From a client service perspective, I mean, you got One location is 3100 plus reviews, may have more than that with a high rating. And I gotta imagine too, when you didn't have the volume of cases early on when you weren't advertising, you were, hey, let me get maximum value and give extreme attention to this. And then those results ended up being marketing.

B (3:43)

Yeah, so that's really true. You know, I remember sitting in my conference room in about 0708 and there was this young couple, husband and wife, they'd been involved in a very serious accident and they were coming from a TV lawyer. They wanted to terminate the services with this TV lawyer and come to me. And it was really big case. And I remember sitting there talking with this couple saying, how on earth do you as a bright young couple end up with this lawyer who is not a very good lawyer with a case like this? And she said to me, well, he had the best ads. We assumed he was the best lawyer. And all of a sudden a light bulb went off in my head and then suddenly I go, okay, I'm going to lose this unless I start adding marketing and advertising. So that's kind of what happened is literally that case. I know that for years, in the early days of advertising, 10 or 15 years ago, I would say, oh, I'm happy with my 150 cases a month because we just don't have any people out here in Nevada. It's just Las Vegas and the rest is sagebrush and jackrabbits. And so I never believed that you could get more cases than your typical hundred, 150. I just figured the population wouldn't support it because of the number of lawyers that were already here and advertising. And we've pushed the envelope. More and more money being spent on advertising and we haven't hit the saturation point yet. So.

C (5:30)

So that was one of my future questions. But you led me right to it. You've got a thriving practice and you went the, I'll say the, the inch wide, mile deep and stayed in Nevada as opposed to expanding your total addressable market. Have you thought about going to another, you know, going to California, going to these other markets.

B (5:51)

I have seen other lawyers make the mistake because of their desire to grow, maybe their ego. They want multiple offices in multiple states. There's an old saying, he who chases two rabbits catches neither. Right. So I don't feel that we have dominated, conquered Nevada yet. Although we continue to grow every year, I don't believe we've reached the saturation point. And maybe once we've done that, I might explore other markets. We already practice in Utah, Arizona, California. Just because we have other lawyers that are admitted there and we get overflow cases that come in. So we already do have quite a, quite a few cases in those other states, although we don't actively market anywhere else but Nevada. But I just don't feel that that's what I want to do. Maybe my son Josh, when I'm not around, might do that. And we have dabbled in lead gen plays in Colorado. You know, it works. You know, I did law Tigers in California. It works. But I just feel that focusing on Nevada, in Nevada is the best play for us.

C (7:04)

Thank you for sharing that. I gotta say, when I think of dominating a market, I think of you in Nevada and I think of, you know, Newland over in Orlando. I know he sold his practice and I'm not sure whether it's the fortress or whatever happened there, but you know, look at the media. Spend 20 million in Orlando on TV buy. It's like, well, clearly if he's spending that much, then it's going to support it. So, like what? I don't know what the signal would be to show just complete diminishing returns. I guess if the CAC just completely, the cost acquired case just blew out and wasn't sustainable. I don't know.

B (7:42)

Yeah, well, those are all the considerations, aren't they? Like, I used to be proud of the lack of money spent on marketing. I used to brag about I'm less than, you know, 10% of gross revenue. And now we're a hefty 20% of revenue and we're approaching, you know, $100 million law firm. So that's a significant amount of marketing dollars spent for 3.2 million people in Nevada. But that's just like Newland's play in Orlando. I didn't believe that we could do it until we started spending the money and the cases came and, you know, now we're approaching, you know, 500 cases a month and, and I never would have believed that would happen in, in Nevada.

C (8:28)

You know, one of the things I've always thought about Vegas and Orlando is they facilitate a nationwide strategy because you get so many travelers and as opposed to other markets that maybe aren't as visited from a tourist perspective. So I've always thought that that was an interesting component of maybe these two markets in particular.

B (8:52)

You're exactly right. We have approaching 40, 50 million tourists a year that come to Las Vegas. Some of them get hurt, they go home, they hire their local lawyer, and they come to us either through referral or the ones who don't hire a lawyer are getting on the Internet. And so years ago, we made a play to become Nevada's lawyer, the go to lawyer. And you know, we're in trial lawyer magazines, we're on listservs in other states trying to be helpful to people who have had cases here. And we get hundreds and hundreds of cases from lawyers out of state every year because of that focus that we made years ago.

A (9:37)

When the cash starts flowing, firms that spread themselves too thin across multiple states can run into trouble. Focusing solely on Nevada, Richard was able to continue to increase his ad spend without diminishing returns. But once you start dominating a market, those massive cases start rolling in. You run into completely different problems. You could spend millions to make the phone ring, but if your intake isn't solid, all those expensive leads are just going to leak right out of the bottom of the bucket.

C (10:03)

You've been doing this a while. What are the fundamentals to you today for advertising for a PI firm?

B (10:09)

Well, the fundamentals are word of mouth referrals. That's the fundamentals. Because when you think about it, everyone in practice has sort of a radius of influence, whether they advertise or not. They have their thousand or two thousand people that they know. And if they're available to those friends and family and associates, all the marketing and advertising in the world has no effect on those people whatsoever. They already know a lawyer, they know how to get a lawyer, and they can watch TV or drive down the freeway and all these billboards and all of it flies over their head like a, like mattress commercials. Like, you know how many mattress commercials there are on tv? So none of it means anything to somebody who already has access to a lawyer. So I remember those days and actually long for those days when it was just me and my little staff and the people that called me knew me or they knew somebody that knew me. And I could attribute every case to somebody, or, you know, for years it was like that I knew every single case and where it came from. And so there were people advertising and it didn't affect me. I Think having a practice like that, a core practice that's based upon referrals, client service and so forth, that's where you have to start. That's the fundamental. And then when you branch out and begin to mass market, then you know the risk is you're going to lose that quality, you're going to lose that client service, you're going to lose that ability to get maximum value on a case. And so then it becomes just feeding the monster. It's sort of the hamster wheel of feeding the marketing dollars so you can have more cases because you're not really getting those cases by word of mouth and doing a good job, which feeds on itself. Right. So the fundamental is to do a good job and to have your systems and processes perfect so that when these people call and these people are calling you, you don't want to lose those people. An 80% conversion rate is not good enough. A 90% conversion rate is not good enough. You want to be able to capture everyone that wants you as long as you want them. And so I think a lot of law firms make the mistake of throwing marketing dollars out there and then not having a solid way of doing things and stuff slips through the cracks.

C (12:45)

Let's talk about that leaky bucket, the wanted conversion rates. A practice your size. Are you a salesforce litify?

A (12:52)

Are you a lead doc at filevine?

C (12:54)

Like talk to me about your tech stack. Talk to me about your intake.

B (12:57)

We're litify. We wanted to be a salesforce based CRM just because of the kind of saw what was happening years ago when we committed to that, that there's going to be add ons and plugins and eventually, you know, AI stuff. And I have no, no problem with file buying. I know the owners. That's a Vegas product, Ryan and Nate, you know, but it's a closed system and, and so we, we opted for Salesforce so we could plug and play. And so as far as the tech stack is concerned, you know, we, we have speed AI, if you're familiar with that, monitoring our intake processes. We have foundation AI which scans and distributes our documents. We have also even up. We use both, you know, as far as processing cases and med crons and things like that. We actually have an AI receptionist. We're one of the first firms to, to actually have the guts to do that. And it's not perfect, but it's pretty good. We call her Casey. We named her after a difficult staff member that used to work for us.

C (14:05)

Love it.

B (14:07)

So Casey speaks 150 languages and routes our calls based upon phone numbers and the identification of the caller. It's pretty amazing.

C (14:18)

I was just wondering on the phone system, like Ringcentral, Amazon Connect.

B (14:22)

We are Ringcentral right now. Yeah, gotcha.

C (14:25)

And then just on a follow up, thank you for sharing all those wonderful tools. I've had a handful of them on the podcast. How do you think about the chase? You know, is it 14 days?

A (14:34)

You know, are you a buy or die type of. You know, they.

C (14:38)

As long as they're into statutes, we're chasing them for a year.

B (14:41)

No, I don't think we chase them more than a few days. In Nevada, we like to say people are super educated because of the proliferation of lawyer advertising. Billboards, tv, radio. So everybody lawyers up really fast. And it's not like Seattle where somebody gets an accident. Maybe they want to read a book about it and then choose their lawyer.

C (15:05)

Gotcha.

B (15:06)

So we don't find it fruitful to chase too long because people lawyer up. I saw a survey years ago. It was something like two or three days was sort of the average for lawyering. A pep turn accident. It was one of the quickest in the country.

A (15:27)

Even up is a specialized proactive AI built for personal injury law firms. Personal injury is in their DNA. Visit evenuplaw.com to learn more. You can have the most advanced tech stack on the market. You can have AI routing your calls in 150 different languages. But technology only takes you so far. At a certain point, converting cases and building an elite reputation comes down to sheer unadultered effort. Perhaps Richard's best tool isn't found in some software. It's a mindset that happens after everyone else clocks out.

C (16:06)

So in our pre interview, we asked about your biggest breakthrough in your business and your answer was pretty short. You said it's all profit after 5pm so, so what? Unpack that for me. What do you mean by it's all profit after 5pm?

B (16:20)

I really enjoy working and always enjoyed working. And I'm not a golfer, so I worked Fridays my entire career. And so I used to, and I still do follow the mantra of people during the day, paper at night. So, you know, my days are spent dealing with people. And whether it's in the litigation process or meeting with clients or meeting with vendors or going to a power lunch with an influential person, you know, and then at night it was doing all the work because you didn't get any work done during the day. So I stayed late at work. I don't know what it's like to Be in commuter traffic, because I've never driven home in commuter traffic. And I would stay to work into the evenings every night to do the paperwork. But I would also make a few phone calls and I would call clients after five and they would say, what are you doing? I go, well, I was here working on your case, and they would be flabbergasted that the attorney is calling them in the evening. That was a very powerful signal to them that we're hard at work on your case even when the business day is over. So it's all profit after five comes from that experience where clients are so surprised. It's like gold. When you make a telephone call at night. You've probably had that experience when your doctor checks up on you. Maybe after a surgical procedure, you actually get a call from the doctor at night checking up on you. That always impressed me. So it's the same thing. So most people quit and go home at 5. It's all profit after 5. Means that extra effort is nothing but profit.

C (18:01)

Let me circle back to the cause. I'm really intrigued on this inch wide mile deep, right? Staying in Nevada in your. You haven't hit diminishing returns. Your large case count has that facilitated, you know, you going after a wider range of cases, you know, maybe taking some premises cases that maybe you're on the fringe and not just straight auto.

B (18:24)

Oh, no, no, it's never been that way. We have always taken premises cases because our foundation is in litigation. As a firm, some of our biggest verdicts and settlements have been premises cases. In fact, there have been a couple of years where our fees generated by premises have exceeded auto. So there aren't too many firms that can say that. And that's because, you know, we're in Las Vegas and Reno and there's all kinds of hotel, casino, premises type cases, from the routine slips and trips to the tragedies, you know, the crimes that are committed to negligent security type cases. Of course, the round 91 shooting case we were heavily involved in. And so we've always taken premises cases. Now it's a different way to evaluate those in the beginning. I mean, you're going to lose about half of those that you sign up. But the average fee is considerably higher than our auto average fee.

C (19:25)

Let me give you like a thought exercise off that. You just kind of spurred this off the cuff. You know, a lot of people think of like your go to market strategy. Like you're going to enter a new market and you need to generate cases. Like you said, you rebuilt the firm with Josh, one of the strategies was, hey, I bought this. I got 600 cases, you know, and different go to market strategy, whether you like it or dislike is the legion, right? Higher fall off rates, you know, maybe not as good of cases, but let's just say we did a hypothetical, said, hey, we're gonna go compete in Atlanta. Atlanta's got good laws. And what do you think your mix would be?

A (20:02)

Do you think you'd go in, go to market Legion?

C (20:04)

Do you think you'd go in, blast some tv? Like, what do you think?

B (20:08)

Well, I'll tell you, when I went into California, it was a law Tigers play, so it was strictly motorcycle cases. It worked. But we kind of got the 1, 2 punch during the pandemic and everything sort of shut down. And that's when I withdrew from Law Tigers out of California and I earmarked that budget for Nevada, and that turned into explosive growth. I doubled down during the pandemic. It's interesting. I emailed John Morgan in March of 2020 when the pandemic hit. He's a friend of mine, and I said, john, what are we gonna do? Everything shut down. And he wrote me back and he said, double down, double down on your marketing. And a lot of firms did, and we were one of them. And so California was a law Tigers play, which was a mix of radio, tv, digital, outdoor. But when we experimented in Colorado, it was 100% lead gen play, and it worked. But again, that was a victim of the pandemic as well. And so if I were to go into a market, it would be a digital play. You know, initially, I wouldn't bother with traditional channels. I would not do tv, I would not do radio, I would not do outdoor, not initially. I would do Legion and pay per click. If I were to go into a new market, love it.

C (21:28)

We'll put that up on our website.

B (21:31)

And, you know, it's interesting. There are a lot of firms out there that are flying under the radar that they have no brand presence whatsoever. And they're signing up a lot of cases on lead gen and pay per click. You know, they have virtual offices. They don't have a brick and mortar anywhere. And they're hugely competitive. And most of the world PI lawyers don't even know about these firms. There's a number of them.

C (21:59)

You know, me being a digital guy, like I'm, you know Broderick, right? Like he sprang out of Nowhere with the LSAs and the local map pack and what he's doing.

B (22:09)

And, well, the low firm have you ever heard of the low firm out of the west and Midwest? The huge firm that nobody's ever heard of, but it's 100% digital?

C (22:21)

I got a couple final questions here. You know, talk to me about working with your son. I gotta tell you, I. That would just be a dream of mine. You know, my son's four, right? So it's a long, long ways off. But, hey, snap your fingers and next thing you know, well, what's it like working with Josh?

A (22:37)

Like, do you share the vision?

C (22:40)

Do you say, hey, we want to go this way or that way? You know, is there complete alignment? Or does he. Hey, I want to do these things?

B (22:47)

I have to say, working with Josh is a dream. I never thought it would happen. I always thought Josh should go do his own thing. But for the breakup of the big firm in 03, when Josh was in law school, I don't think Josh would have joined me because I was sort of against that. Like, go do your own thing, and I'll do mine. And I grew up in a family business, and there was tension among the siblings and with my dad, and it wasn't perfect. And so I didn't look forward to that until the firm broke up. And then I relied upon Josh to come help me rebuild this. And it was the best thing that ever happened because I was 25 years into my practice. Josh is out of law school, and together he and I rebuilt it. And he adds his young, youthful style to the firm and corrects me. He's deferential to me, but he speaks his mind on the way it should be, as I'm getting older and maybe more out of touch to the realities of what's happening with the younger people. And so it's a good collaboration. It's 100% respectful. Never a real argument. We work it through. And he's a numbers guy. His favorite movie is Moneyball, and he. He knows the numbers. He knows all the KPIs, he knows the time on desk. He knows the average fee. He knows the conversion rate. He knows the attrition rate. He knows all the numbers. And I'm more of a thinking in circles. I'm more of a relationship kind of guy and old school. And together, it's a pretty powerful duo for recreating this firm over the last 20 years.

C (24:37)

Rick, this has been amazing. You know, final question here. Our audience listening, that has a question about our POD conversation. They want to get in touch, maybe refer a case to you. What's the best way to get in touch?

B (24:48)

I'll give you the email address. The shortest one is rickarris Legal. Rickarris Legal. And I still answer the phone and texts and emails all day long coordinating referrals every day into the night. And I suppose I'll hang on to that until I stop altogether. So love it.

C (25:12)

Amazing. Rick, thank you so much for coming on the show.

B (25:15)

It's been my pleasure, Chris. Thank you very much.

A (25:19)

Richard Harris proves that you don't need to chase two rabbits to build a massive firm. You need to dominate your own backyard and outwork the competition when everyone else

C (25:27)

goes home at 5.

A (25:28)

When you combine that old school dedication with remote relentless marketing, you capture lightning in a bottle. Built to scale to that level, you need a marketing partner that actually knows how to win. At Rankings IO, we help elite personal injury law firms dominate their markets and sign more high value cases. We don't do guesses, we do proof over promises. If you're ready to plant your flag and scale your firm, head on over to Rankings IO. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'll catch you next time

B (25:57)

you.