Tyson Mutrix (1:57)

So what, what about for the company though? For the company by its like, do you have like a number for the company?

Chris Dreyer (2:02)

So the main one I'm dialed in

Podcast Host/Interviewer (2:04)

right now is CAC to LTV ratio. That number.

Tyson Mutrix (2:07)

Okay, very nice.

Chris Dreyer (2:09)

To me, that's the health of a company, right? Everyone says that the cost acquired case and that number is the is the true leading indicator of if you're going

Podcast Host/Interviewer (2:19)

to be profitable or not.

Tyson Mutrix (2:20)

So it's funny for us, I like average fee for our firm. Yeah, average fee. Because you can look at a lot of things from average fee. If your number starts to go down, it could be an indication of a lot of different things and you can start to tweak things and look at it, it could be maybe you're settling your cases too slowly, maybe you're settling it too quickly. It can indicate a lot of different things. And so we know if we're on track, if that number is steadily increasing. Whenever I first started tracking that number, we were like 7, 400 a case, which is super low. And by the way, we don't, we don't include like the high end cases. Like so if we set like a case for like seven figures, we're not throwing that into the mix so. Because it'll skew the numbers big time. So ours is right around 24,000, just under 24,000. So it's increased significantly since I started tracking, I think 2015 or something like that. And it's been like a steady, gradual, gradual growth. That means that every single one of our cases is worth at least a state minimum. Actually it's way more than that. So if you. That's our average fee. So it's basically triple what the state minimum is. Right. So that's a significant increase. And I also think it's way higher than, than the average firm.

Chris Dreyer (3:29)

What were some of the big 80, 20 things that you did to get

Podcast Host/Interviewer (3:33)

to that case value?

Chris Dreyer (3:35)

How did you identify it was a problem and then kind of like how

Podcast Host/Interviewer (3:37)

did you approach increasing it?

Tyson Mutrix (3:40)

That's interesting. How did I identify it was a problem? I don't know. That's a question I have actually never been asked. Let me think about it. Back when we actually it's been over a decade since we've been doing it. I don't know, I think I accidentally started tracking it. I think is probably what it was. It started with that and then I guess 8020 is. We started that. That one's a, probably an easy one where I'd say when we first started tracking this we were not super great at bad faith. We just weren't. We didn't have a, as a firm, not a strong understanding as to what bad faith meant when it comes to settlement dollars. And then once we started to shift towards that. That is one of the hardest things to explain to any lawyer. I think, at least in Missouri it is. It's kind of like the Nick Rally approach because it is such a. It feels almost like a mythical thing that doesn't work because they don't see it happen that much. If you go to, like an average volume firm, they're typically not using bad faith as an angle to try to get more money out of the settlements. And when we made that shift, I'd say we probably made that shift right around 2017 is really focusing and hammering on bad faith and working on getting excess verdicts and excess settlements. So that was probably the 80, 20, if we're going to look at that. And it's really kind of funny. So we've brought on attorneys that have a lot of experience, and they came from firms that didn't focus on bad faith. And they come in and they're like, they kind of. It's like deer in headlights. Like, what are you talking about, bad faith? I remember having a conversation with a guy. I will not tell you what city he's in because it would probably say who it is. He was heavy on radio ads, and I had, I had coffee with him. I was talking to him about bad faith and everything. And he's like, what do you mean, bad faith? And I had to explain to him, bad faith. This is a guy that was spending a ton on marketing and had no idea what bad faith is. And if he had understanding of that, he would be able to get a lot more money for clients. It'd be better for the profession, too. Back to what I was talking about with our. When we brought attorneys, I had the same. I've had the same conversations with attorneys that have had a lot of experience and they have just never seen it happen before. And the first time they see it happen, they think it's like magic. They're like, oh, my God, like, you settled the case for over the policy. What are you talking about? It drives me crazy whenever I hear attorneys say things like that. Because, like, this is what we do. This is the center of what we are doing is when it, on the legal side is attacking when it comes to bad faith.

Chris Dreyer (6:04)

How do you think about, you know,

Podcast Host/Interviewer (6:06)

the attraction side, though? I mean, you know, first of all, your, your feet, maybe you're like, oh, well, I'll pay 5 or $10,000 for a case, or 5,000 because I'm, you know, I'm 5x on the ratio.

Tyson Mutrix (6:17)

So we actually, funny, I have this conversation quite often. So our marketing team, it's funny because they're always trying to spend less money and they're like, well, you know, to, to get these cases we have to spend X number of dollars and I say our average fee is $24,000. Like if I can spend. So I would always use like a high number. Say if I can spend $8,000 to get one case and get $24,000 on it, I'm going to do it every single day. But it's funny, I'm always fighting that because they're always wanting. It's kind of like the nature of our firm. We're like, we're always trying to like, do we even need that thing over there? Okay, stop spending money on that thing. So it's part of the culture too where we've kind of got that built in. So I'm, I'm kind of fighting, fighting the culture that I've built a little bit where like we, everyone's like trying to maximize every penny. So it's part of that. But it's, it is kind of funny how like I think if I were in that department I would probably be fighting for let's spend more money, let's spend more money. But I guess that is, that is interesting. So one of the things I see a lot and I, I bet you see this too is people are, they're making money, right? They're making money making money. The marketing thing that they're doing is working and they're like, well, I gotta, it's just expensive. I want to shut it down. But are you, are you getting cases from it? Yes. So don't shut it off. That's. That drives me nuts.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (7:35)

I have this all the time.

Chris Dreyer (7:38)

Will they do a Rob Peter to pay Paul?

Podcast Host/Interviewer (7:40)

You know, like, of course one channel is going to be better than another. That doesn't mean shut down the one that's not, you know.

Tyson Mutrix (7:45)

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (7:47)

I'm the non attorney.

Chris Dreyer (7:49)

Can you give me the simplified version?

Tyson Mutrix (7:51)

Simplified version is, is that use of the demand? The insurance company lowballs you. So they have placed their insured at jeopardy of having their personal assets at jeopardy at risk. And so because of that we pit the insured against the insurance company, kind of get them to team up with us. And because of that the insurance company is willing to pay more money than the policy. That's in a nutshell, that's oversimplifying is what it is.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (8:15)

I think I heard on a John Morgan's really entertaining. I like listening to him because he,

Chris Dreyer (8:20)

he's also at this point in his

Podcast Host/Interviewer (8:21)

career where he has no filter and has no cares. And I think he was on Patrick.

Tyson Mutrix (8:25)

Can I cuss?

Podcast Host/Interviewer (8:25)

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Dreyer (8:26)

He has no fucks.

Tyson Mutrix (8:27)

He gives no fucks.

Chris Dreyer (8:28)

That's exactly so I heard. I think he was on Patrick bet

Podcast Host/Interviewer (8:31)

David or the mice first million and he gave that example about, hey, now

Chris Dreyer (8:35)

you're in bad faith.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (8:36)

And so I'd always wanted to understand that, but yeah, so that's incredible.

Chris Dreyer (8:42)

In the example you gave the 8,000. I mean, 8,000 to 24 is a 3 to 1 ratio. And from what I've been told in professional services, anything three to one or

Podcast Host/Interviewer (8:50)

higher is healthy for profit, which is awesome.

Tyson Mutrix (8:53)

Anyone that's not doing that needs to change what they're doing. Pick up Running with the Bulls by Nick Rowley and educate a little bit if they've not already. That'll give them the framework, the general framework, and then they can tweak it from there like we have.

Chris Dreyer (9:10)

Even up is a specialized proactive AI built for personal injury law firms. Personal injury is in their DNA. Visit evenuplaw.com to learn more. We just heard how Tyson leverages bad faith claims to triple his average fee and build a massive marketing war chest. But to protect those high value cases over months or years of litigation, you have to realize that you aren't just managing a legal file, you're managing your client's now disrupted life. Listen to how Tyson maps out the absolute lowest points of a client's journey to build a concierge experience. And why he completely separated his customer service team from his legal team.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (9:56)

The other thing too, that during the research that came up, it's like you have this soup to nuts. This concierge level approach to a case right.

Chris Dreyer (10:04)

Where you are really taking care, I mean, from rental cars to, I mean you're really, I think of that Alex Hormozi, you read his a hundred million dollar offers, like, what's a good offer on the denominator? It says, you know, faster and decreasing effort and sacrifice.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (10:22)

I mean, you are making this very seamless for them.

Chris Dreyer (10:25)

So talk to our audience about that, the impact it's had on your firm. Like that approach.

Tyson Mutrix (10:30)

Yeah. So it's funny, I remember I got the URL complete injurylaw.com it's still a URL that we use, but that was like sort of the mindset we called it Complete Injury law is how we, how we focus on it. And it's, it was even to the point where, and I've had this conversation with other attorneys too, and they've thought about doing the same thing where we even thought about getting a fleet of cars, that while we are either the client can't get A rental car, or let's say it's an uninsured motor's claim, they don't have rental coverage, that they can use one of those cars. We ultimately decided not to. It just didn't make sense to do it. But we really take the whole approach where if you can't get to a doctor, we make sure we get to the doctor. And the whole idea is, is that it's going to increase the value of the case. And it's obviously about helping our plants and everything. But most of it centers around getting the clients to the doctors that they need to get to and making sure they make to their appointments, because that affects everything else when it comes to the case from start to finish. I like how you put it, soup to nuts. We really do take that approach. We do like little things too, where this isn't necessarily related to that specifically. But if a client has someone in their life that dies, like there's a button we can click and they can add a couple notes and it's. It sends flowers out to them. Like, things like that. Where we really want to take this. I don't know if I like the word holistic approach, but we kind of like take this holistic approach that there are all these aspects of a client's life that are affected. We. We've got this massive Kanban board. It's massive to the point where you have to get to each column, you have to zoom in. And we usually do this as a team. What we do is we broke down every single stage of the case from the client's perspective. So you're at the scene of the crash, like, what are you thinking? We break it down by, like, what's going through their mind? Okay, like, what are they feeling? Who are they contacting? Who is it that they actually have contact at that very moment? So all these things, we break it down, like, each one of those little slivers is broken down into all these different questions that we ask and then answer. And from start to finish, and then we kind of like develop, like, okay, what can we do surrounding that? And it's funny, I really haven't talked about this in particular because I think it's such a cool thing. And one of the questions is that what is something that no one else is doing that we could do? And that's one of my favorite questions when it comes to that, because we get to that sliver and we answer that question. And that's where the magic happens, because we've just gone through, all right, who are they in touch with at this point, you know, what are they feeling? You know, what are they thinking? What are their concerns? All these different things and then like, okay, what's everyone else doing and what can we do that's different? And that you get so many great little nuggets and we're not able to adopt all of them sometimes like, like the idea of the us buying a fleet of cars for our clients doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you factor in other things, but you get little bitty ideas that, that make a massive impact.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (13:15)

I'll tell you immediately, I think when you tell a story like that anybody that's been in an accident think puts themselves in that their shoes. Like when you just were you giving that example? So I was thinking of myself. Even though I work with attorneys and I've been through this, when it happens there's like anxiety and it's just a blur, right? And like I think that hey, I need to get in touch with my wife and work, right? You're all stressed about work and like,

Chris Dreyer (13:36)

yeah, it had been nice. Like hey, do you want us to get a hold of your wife? Do you want us to do this?

Podcast Host/Interviewer (13:41)

And it's like because your phone might

Chris Dreyer (13:42)

be messed up or who knows?

Tyson Mutrix (13:44)

Well, have you ever had surgery before?

Chris Dreyer (13:46)

Yeah.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (13:47)

Yeah.

Tyson Mutrix (13:47)

Okay. So then you know how, how disruptive it is. Like, so I was rear ended a couple years ago and I'd have shoulder surgery from it. And I remember it's amazing like the things that I was thinking in my head that I'd be able to do right. And in reality everyone else knew I was not able because like the people I'm surrounded by are like people in my firm and my, my wife who also works for the firm and they, they see with all these other clients there's no way in hell you're going to be. I was thinking I was going to be able to sit in my bed and take depots while I was in my bed, you know, and they're like, you're going to be on freaking pain meds, right? But I remember thinking how helpless it felt because I was in bed for a week there a couple days of that, like where they give you that, that nerve block. I can't even raise my arm, you know, I mean I couldn't use my computer. It was all these different things. Your life stops in some aspects and when you don't have a vehicle and you have like. That's why it was like such a big deal for us to make sure people can get to their jobs. People get to work because let's say you're. You are on the lower end of the income scale, right. Usually those jobs they're hourly based. If you don't make it, even if you've got a good excuse, guess what? Bye bye. You're getting fired. Their life stops. And so a big part of was making sure that they could get to the doctor after work. Like you. You have to accommodate all these different things. So making appointments for them and figuring all this different stuff out, it's a massive thing because it. It just not have that one thing. Not having a vehicle in this country is a massive deal.

Chris Dreyer (15:18)

That deep empathy led to the cares team. It's an incredible operational setup. But here's where we bring it full circle back to marketing. Asking for a review as a firm can feel transactional and awkward. But watch how Tyson makes that authentic human connection built by the cares team and flips the script your reviews.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (15:36)

They name the individuals which speaks to the personal relationship. So they mention Kristen and Bianca. The friendly voice. The Kristen keeps the chaos in check. I imagine when you ask for the review like oh no, no sweat. Like I got you.

Tyson Mutrix (15:53)

Well so the key to this one of one of the keys. There's many keys of getting your reviews. Google reviews for anyone that's trying to get them. Like it's way harder to get a Google review today than it was five years ago. It's just people are done with it. People are more likely to probably give a negative review at this point than a positive review. No, not necessarily with our firm. I'm just saying generally because like that then is going to trigger it. They're gonna like because they're pissed off about something. But one of the keys to it is like one of my favorite tricks is it's something along the lines of because we have what we call the cares team a part of the whole complete injury law was like the is what we call our cares team. And our cares team is basically there from the beginning to the end. I say basically because they're not working on the case. The cares team a part of it is actual leads and converting clients, all that. But it's. It acts as sort of like a customer service department where they check in with them. We wanted that continuity instead of them getting handed off to someone and then never having some sort of continuity. Because we do have it split up where you have the cares team, you have pre lit and you have litigation. So if you go from a lead to pre lit to lit I mean you're being basically being passed off to three different teams. Cares team hovers along the entire time and then from start to finish and checks in with the client throughout. So that was a big part of it where they're checking in. So the key is where I was kind of teasing the key. Let's use Krista or for example, Krista or Kristin. We have a lot of case sounding names in our firm, but we'll use Kristen. So let's say Isabel from the cares team. She calls and she's talking to you and she's like, hey, Chris, you know, how are things going? The whole idea is to like, see how you're doing, checking in on you and you're like, you know what? Kristen has done an amazing job. So here's where the magic is. Maybe in that situation, Isabelle says, you know what, Chris? Kristen would love to hear that. Hear that. And one like one of the things we pride ourselves with is if is Google reviews. Google reviews. And if you would just leave her a review on our firm page and I'll send you the link and just mention her name, it. It would mean the world to her thing like something like that where yeah, it's not Isabella asking for a review for her. You're giving a gift to Kristen is what you're doing. Because you. You are so appreciative of Kristen. You're giving her a gift is what it is. That's the magic in that.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (17:59)

I think, by the way, that may be the best piece of advice I've ever heard because I think there's three parts to this. The first part is what I see a lot of attorneys do wrong is they'll ask for a review for the firm. Right. Because I always encourage people to ask for the individual. But then now you're saying the gift component and hey, leave a review for someone else. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's. That's amazing. That's. That's awesome.

Tyson Mutrix (18:23)

See how it changed the dynamic so much. You are, oh my God, I would love to do that for her because she's been so great to me. I would like people like giving gifts like they really do. The next turtle is removing all the friction, right? What's the friction? Having to go on there. Like one, your daily life is happening, but you also like which link is it like, because especially have multiple offices. Like which one. You make it freaking simple. Here's the link. Would love, love for you to say a few kind words about Kristen, blah, blah, blah. You know, like that's you do it.

Chris Dreyer (18:51)

That cares team I guess you use like a case status or a HONA or something to keep them updated. So would they kind of take over more of the client service communication compared to the case manager? Like, break it down just a little bit more? The differences.

Tyson Mutrix (19:05)

For me, here's the main difference. The cares team just calls to check in to see how they're doing. It's pretty simple. It's someone calling you from the firm, saying, hey, Chris, I'm just. I know. I listen, I know. Looks like you're. Because, like, they look at the notes too. This was like something that was grown internally. That was not my idea. One of the case managers came up with this. They'll put in very specific notes about something the client says. So let's say that again. You're the client and you mentioned that. What city are you in right now?

Chris Dreyer (19:31)

I'm in mar. In Illinois, actually.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (19:34)

You might know Marion, Illinois.

Tyson Mutrix (19:35)

Okay. I know Marion.

Chris Dreyer (19:36)

Okay.

Tyson Mutrix (19:37)

So are you. I was. Funny, I was going to use the Bears as an example. Are you a Bears fan?

Chris Dreyer (19:41)

No, no, not a Bears fan. Cardinals and used to be the Rams till they left.

Tyson Mutrix (19:45)

Okay, let's say you're a Cardinals fan. So let's say you. You took the kids. Do you have kids?

Podcast Host/Interviewer (19:51)

Yeah, one boy.

Tyson Mutrix (19:52)

Okay. You mentioned that you took your son to the Cardinals game last week to the. Against the Mets. Okay. So Isabella might call you and say, hey, Chris, you know, hey, I'm just calling to see how you're doing. Checking in on you. It looks, oh, how was the. How was the Cardinals game last week? And then you talk about that. It's just. It's a simple call, check in to see how things are going. And we have some specific questions that we. That they ask with it.

Chris Dreyer (20:14)

We.

Tyson Mutrix (20:14)

But the whole idea is just to see how you doing. Right. How you doing? Kind of a thing. So that's the main difference. All of the other, like, case update communication, all that is done by the case manager. But whenever Isabella calls you and she says, you know, how's the Cardinals game? After that she might say, yeah, I mean, it looks like the. Looks like the insurance company's really being a pain. It looks like they really lowballed you on that last offer, you know, and then she'll kind of get into the other stuff. So she's mixing in some of the case stuff. She's mixing in your personal life. But the actual case updates about the legal side of the case, are those all that comes from the actual team that the client is assigned to? It's not done by the cares team itself.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (20:50)

That's incredible.

Chris Dreyer (20:51)

So talk to me too about, you know, somebody wants to get involved with Maximum Lawyer. Like a community.

Tyson Mutrix (20:57)

Sure. I mean, yeah, it's the, the easy, the easiest and cheapest way the freeway. We do have a big Facebook group thing. You just go to Maximum Lawyer on Facebook and do that. That's the easiest way. We also have the podcast so you can, you can listen to the podcast, see if it's kind of your flavor and then maximilawyer.com that's, that's where you can go to if, if anyone's interested in any of the events. Max law events.com we have the conference coming up in October.

Chris Dreyer (21:20)

Any our audience wants to connect, just a final, you know, how can they get in touch?

Tyson Mutrix (21:24)

Yeah, I'd say you just go to maximil.com if you have questions about the firm, call our office. Don't email me. I'm not a. Not an email fan. 888-550-426. You can call us if you have anything about a case, but when it comes to maxim lawyer, just maximiliar.com Amazing.

Chris Dreyer (21:37)

Tyson, thanks for coming on the show.

Tyson Mutrix (21:39)

Thanks, Chris. Really appreciate it.

Chris Dreyer (21:43)

Tyson's strategy is the perfect loop. You fight for the maximum fee by mastering bad faith. You protect the client operationally by building a cares team that genuinely maps out the disruption in their lives. And then you turn the operational excellence into a marketing asset by generating those five star reviews. That is how you build an undeniable moat around your personal laundry firm. If you found value in Tyson's playbook today, you should take this episode and share it with people in your own office. Your intake staff, your case managers and your partners. Get everyone thinking about how you can elevate the client journey if you're ready to dominate your market, increase your average fee and sign the kinds of high value cases that let you completely outspend the competition. Head on over to Rankings IO. We are the elite performance marketing agency for personal injury law firms. I'm Chris Dreyer. We're catch you next time.