A (3:12)

How would you frame that? Would you modify it a little bit for the PI attorneys, the auto attorneys? Because you know, I hear those stats, the show rate's great, right? I'm in professional services, so if, if you could get close at 80%, then that's pretty damn good.

B (3:24)

You're loving it.

A (3:25)

Yeah, I think we're in like the 70 percentile, so that's great. Right in the middle, right? 60, you know, and you gotta keep that salesperson all the way, you know, in the updates. What do you see for auto like, like adjusting maybe the, the, the stats or just, just some general thoughts on the difference for auto?

B (3:42)

Yeah, no, you bring up a good point. So what we find that a lot of auto, and even just contingency firms in general use is they use more of a hot transfer model. A lot of them that, that, that we see use a hot transfer model. Lead calls on the fly. We're kind of running consult, trying to get them signed up right then and there. And honestly, depending on the market, there is some validity in using that model because people are so quick to jump. Generally speaking, in fee based firms, we never recommend using hot transfers, but in contingency based firms in unique scenarios it makes sense. And when that is the case, assuming we are using a hot transfer model, we usually find that we're usually closing 90% or above of the cases we want to take. If not 95% or above of the cases that you want to take and can take.

A (4:31)

That's exactly what we See, right, we say 90% plus. I think 92 is like what people strive for. And then you got some of those unicorns, the ones that are really rocking and rolling in that 95% five sometimes squeak into 96. So that's awesome. So we're directly aligned there, you know, collecting the data. One of the things that, that you talk about watch some of the TikToks is you know, most of these business owners, you know, you talk about you can't scale if you're wherever you had and they think they have to be the rainmaker, trial attorney plus the, the person close the intake attorney. And you focus on helping owners step out of that closing mindset themselves. So how do you get these type A control oriented maybe that are wanting to be super lean to step out and hire, you know, maybe even a non attorney salesperson?

B (5:21)

It's a really great question. So one thing we always say is we like to put the message out there for an educational tool to provide value to understand that this is a possible path for law firms. That said, we do not like to be in the, in the conversion business. Right. A law firm owner has to be at a point where it makes sense for them to even entertain the idea of replacement basing themselves in a sales role to be able to really reap the rewards of it. No one's forcing anybody to do anything, right? But if you feel like you're doing it because you're pressured to do it, or you feel like it's necessary but you don't really want to do it, it's going to be tough for your predecessor, whoever that may be, attorney or non attorney salesperson, to succeed in that role. Because there's likely a subliminal little bit of undermining that happens because it's like, oh wait, I'm, I'm the best in that role. Which may actually be very true. But with those type A personalities particularly, and I can speak from it because I'm one of them, you have to recognize that you can keep it lean until you can't. So if you're trying to grow, you're going to reach a critical mass point where you now have to pick and choose between what grows. Are you going and doing the legal work? Are you going and managing the team, are you running consultations all day and that's your role and you have someone else doing the legal work. The reins have, have to be dropped somewhere. But what often creates the friction point is it's difficult to drop the reins if we don't have the Systems in place to train and keep those new roles accountable. So we have to simultaneously drop the reins and put the right systems in play and the right training to support those people. Because that's what it comes down to. It's a little bit of a trust factor or on the opposite side, a little bit of a skepticism. Can they accomplish this the way I would want them to accomplish it? And the answer is if they're provided the right tools and training, they can. And it might be a little bit different than you, right? Can it be 80% of what you do? And that's going to be done through the systems, the training and the structure. But you're going to hit that critical mass point. So it's figuring out, do you want to hit that point and keep it small and keep it all. Which some firms do they. They want to hit that. Maybe it just obviously varies per practice area. But that 1.5 range, 1.5 million range, and they're like, you know what, I'm good there. I just want to keep things lean, keep it just as it is and maintain the lifestyle that I've built. And there is nothing wrong with that. But if you want to scale beyond that, that's usually roundabout. Sometimes a little bit before, sometimes a little bit after. That's usually that critical mass point where you've got to decide, like, are you going to grow and scale and go through the, quite frankly, the little bit of the hell that it takes to go from 1.5 to 3 to 3.5 and start to really generate the cash flow to bring more roles and to support the continued growth. Or are you going to keep it where it's at?

A (8:15)

Sounds a lot like, you know, you place in Michael Gerber's E. Myth under their pillow at night.

B (8:20)

Great book.

A (8:27)

Even up is a specialized proactive AI built for personal injury law firms. Personal injury is in their DNA. Visit evenuplaw.com to learn more. It's the classic E Myth dilemma. Working in your business versus audit. When you're finally ready to let go of the reins and step out of the sales seat, you can't just throw someone in a chair and hope for the best. You need a system. Here's exactly how to audit your current setup and run the ultimate stress test to find the right person for the job. So let's say they make that decision. What's the first step? Are you secret shopping? Are you doing some form of audit? How does your company dig in and evaluate this?

B (9:11)

Good question. First. And I know sometimes firms are like, can you Shut up about the numbers. I get it. But the numbers, that's number one. Like, we have to know where the numbers stand first because are you in a position right now where actually the numbers are? Quite frankly. Great. But this is a matter of a time buyback and you're trying to buy back your time and you want to replace your metrics, or is it a combo of both? Where, okay, our numbers are off, they're not in the ranges they should be. Plus I want to buy back my time. That's step one is getting a source of the numbers. Because to your point, that's like going to the doctor. They don't hear anything you say and they just say, hey, you need some pills to solve this. Well, I have a hurt arm. This, this, and this is going well. Yeah, just take these. Wait a second. Right, so we got to first figure out what's going on and then once you diagnose that, now you have to figure out the right who. Who is going to sit in that chair. And is there a who already there? And this is a matter of are we trying to evaluate if that's the right who and do they have the right system and structure? So how. We've historically done this primarily in the sales functions. We call it the, the 96 hour test. And we do this for both intake agents and salespeople, attorney or non attorney salespeople. But the 96 hour test is developed to do is really help you through a skills assessment identify do you have the right who? And through that process, it's not literally 96 hours, it's four days. Four days of going through and learning. Are they willing and are they able to memorize and deliver the script and the structure confidently? Because for us, that's what it all comes back to is the script and the structure. Can that person step into that role? Can they learn the script? Can they deliver the structure and the script confidently? And if they can, by the end of that four days, you know you've got the right who in the seat through that guidance. And you also learn a lot about people through those four days. You know, are they putting in the work? Are they putting in the time? Do they actually care about it? Are they investing the extra time to put more reps in to learn the structure so you get some of the soft skills from that person. And then assuming it's the right who. Now it's like, okay, well I got the right who, what's next? Well, now it's the system. And now they were just learning that script and that structure, and that's one we use internally to help get the 65 to 85% set in show rates and 60, 80% close rates. Now it's making sure you've got a training system in place to ensure that, that who has the support they need to continue to maintain those metrics, both training support and accountability. And that's the other area that we see a lot of firms fall off, is they'll find the who, they'll let them shadow, maybe some consults, and then they'll throw them in there and say, all right, like it's go time, go go, figure it out. And a lot of high achievers and go getters will go try to forge a path. But most people, even the best, need some accountability and some training to make sure they're continuing to hone their craft. That's kind of the process we follow.

A (12:09)

I think it's a great process. You know, the evaluation given, the training, the mentoring, the scripts, the opportunity. You know, one of the things that I'd like to hear your thought on this is when I'm telling the PI firms that we work with, I tell them to hire at least two, like, first of all, your salary requirements, your OTEs are less for your intake specialist. And then just the way I look at it is if you have two, they can actually help each other out through immersion. They can ask questions and then you can kind of compare from a stat perspective. You can gamify things and like, and then if one doesn't work out, you still got one.

B (12:44)

You're right about that. So if a firm has the resources to invest into, right off the bat, it does make sense because there is a lot of good that comes from two to your point, they're able to collaborate and feed off of each other in the sense of questions, in the sense of examples, in the sense of role plays. They can do that with, with each other. And then the other thing is, to your point about gamification, it breeds a healthy dose of competition. And so they're trying to, you know, be the top. Usually if you get a players that are, you know, really wanting to strive, you get two people that end up wanting to continue to outdo. Not in an unhealthy manner, that's where you got to manage culture, but in a manner of, hey, they're continuing. Iron sharpens iron. They're continuing to try to push each other to see if they can, you know, one up on the statistics and the numbers for that given period, whatever gamification period that may be. A week, two weeks, a month, whatever that may be.

A (13:41)

You mentioned like repeatable sales process. I think you said script. You know, where, where do you stand on like the script versus the framework? Are you like, hey, every read every single word, every time, question by question or are you like, hey, here's the framework of an opening. But if they say they're crying and something's happening, do you deviate and you lead with empathy? Like where do you stand on, on the opening?

B (14:06)

Great question. Our stance on that, and this is a lot of firms are usually like, really? No, our stance is, you know, a step by step, word for word script. Except here's where we add our nuance. So we do. Frameworks can work. We've got the structure that we follow. But then every structure has the word for word script behind it. Where we tell salespeople to add their flair is in tone, tone and pacing. So that's where you're able to add your delivery flair. What I always tell like our sales team is the way I deliver our script is going to be different than the way you deliver our script. But it's not because we're delivering two different sets of scripts with two different sets of words is because the way you communicate and the way I communicate are two different ways. And so you're going to have tonality changes, you're going to have pacing changes that are different than me. You might have a word here or there that's just a little bit different than me in a transition. And so that's how we're able to add the flair of each individual person. Because trying to take multiple people and put them into the same script and get them to say it, the exact tonality, the exact way, when it's not the way they communicate is not going to get the result we want either. Because now we're trying to force square peg into a round hole and that's just not going to work. They've got to have their own communication flair.

A (15:28)

That's great. You got the reps in, you're rocking and rolling. Maybe you get out of that wearing the multiple hats and you know, the owner can be the CEO, be the owner. Let's talk about now the volume starts to uptick. Are you keeping them full cycle intake reps? Do you segment out outbound? Do you have a closers club? Do you bring in a rev ops manager? Which revops, you know, for legal still gets equated under the IT department, which is so weird to me. But you know, explain to me about the evolution of, of Intake as you grow.

B (16:01)

There's a difference here between sometimes contingency firms and fee based firms. Because most fee based firms, their setups are appointment setters, closers like that's their sales team. Sometimes fee contingency based firms are like, it's just intake team. And that intake team is like I said, kind of running consults on the fly just because of the nature of the practice area. So I would tell you that with those contingency based firms you continue to kind of stack up intake agents. And, and where I find most firms, both fee based and contingency firms run into an issue is they don't get dedicated sales management early enough. Now the revenue and the cash flow has to be there to support it. But if you've got even one appointment setter and one salesperson on your team, they need a dedicated person to go to for day to day management. And if you're the owner, which for a given period of time is likely you until the cash flow supports it. But they need someone to go to, to walk through situations that they're experiencing, to walk the rules of engagement, to pull console or intake recordings, to listen to them, to figure out hey, how are we doing? Are we, are we following the script and the structure to help them through situations. And so what ends up happening is a lot of firms will bring these sales teams on and then not equip them with a sales manager early enough. And usually it's around that range of that 2.5 to 3.5 where you're starting to enter that territory. From a revenue perspective of okay, we need to consider bringing sales management in. So that way now as the owner, like I can truly free myself out of the sales process. Because that's another misconception is, you know, we think we fully remove ourselves, we remove ourselves from day to day consults or day to day appointment setting calls, but we don't fully remove ourselves from sales management. And making sure that sales team is truly working at optimum. Once you put a sales manager in place now you've got what we call an enterprise, you know, sales team, not enterprise in the sense of size necessarily, but you've got a fully autonomous sales team with a sales manager that can run without you having to be there.

A (18:20)

I think also too, when you got somebody that's a hundred percent committed to one function, you're going to get more out of them. Even if you were a talented salesperson, you know, as the CEO, you might be doing other activities. And if you're only spending 10% on sales like you're, you're not going to be as good as the person that spends a hundred percent of the time on it.

B (18:39)

No. And your focus just isn't always there simultaneously. Usually when you're on consults, you're also thinking about, oh, I gotta file this, oh, I gotta go talk to that person on the team. And so you're trying to multitask while you're also running consoles. It's just you're not at optimum. And so you're right, you know, having a dedicated person, that's their core function. They're there to master that role and master the sales process.

A (19:03)

Iron sharpens iron. Putting two hungry intake reps together naturally builds a competitive culture that raises the baseline for everyone. It forces accountability. But once you have the right people in the right place, you have to arm them with the right words. Next up, Michael and I talk about the great debate in intake. Rigid scripts versus loose frameworks. It turns out it's not that simple. Let's say you're the, you're the owner and you want to hold your people accountable and make sure they're doing a good job. Like what kind of KPIs as an, what should the owner be looking at from a KPI perspective? Maybe not the sales manager. Sales manager is probably going to look at everything like what, what's the owner look at to really judge the performance.

B (19:41)

Yeah, and you're right, sales managers should be looking at everything. But generally speaking, I would tell you it still kind of comes back to the same numbers that an owner would want to see as well, which is from a sales perspective. On the intake team, what are our set rates? What are our show rates? What does that mean from an actual volume perspective of number of people? And then on, on the closing team, what is the close rate?

A (20:08)

What about just hiring tips? You know, like, like generally when you're going to look for an intake rep, you know, it's are you more Myers Briggs or you do you know, disc idi? Talk to me about what you're looking for to say, hey, these are some of the characteristics I look for when we're going to hire an intake specialist for a firm.

B (20:29)

So one of the keys for us, and I would say this would be the case for contingency based firms too. I know there's not a collection of money at time of consult, but has this person had a sales role in the past where they have actually harvested a card, collected money and overcome objections? Have they done those things? Because if they have not done those Things, it's oftentimes very difficult unless someone is young, hungry, willing. It's very difficult to take someone who hasn't been used to asking for money during a consult and get them to be okay and comfortable with doing that. So that's why things like, you know, door to door sales, car warranty. I know sometimes people hear these industries, they're like, oh, I know what those type of people are. They're not all that way. And it's a result of training usually on how they approach their role. But car warranty, sales, like phone distributor, AT&T Mobile, servers even are sometimes good with this. They're a little less on the realm of collecting money. You know, it's kind of a forced thing that they have to do. And then once they do that. Skills. Skills test. Skills test is step one. They got to go through the skills test and skills assessment, make sure that they can actually perform the role. And assuming they can in that dedicated window, then I'll throw a shameless plug out there for who we trust and use from a personality perspective. Jay Henderson, Real talent hiring. Highly recommend Jay. Jay actually has a skills assessment that is dedicated to a law firm intake specialist and how well they'll perform in their role. It's a predictive index and I gotta tell you, I can't name very many times that his reports have been off.

A (22:10)

That's the second time I've heard his name in the last week. So I'm gonna have to, I'm have to get him on the pod next.

B (22:15)

I would recommend it. He's great.

A (22:16)

Yeah, you know, I love predictive index and we use it for so long. But I got cheapo'd and I went back to disc because we're doing it with heavy volume recruiting and it was just so pricey. On the predictive side, you know, a couple final questions, tell the audience a little bit about your practice, mastered what it is you guys do and then final question, the best way to reach out and connect with you.

B (22:39)

We were consulting, coaching, added some training. In the last two years we made a transition to be staffing company first that offers specialized training for the staff positions that we staff for law firms. And we also have a consulting program called Partners Club where it's kind of like a mastermind community of other law firm owners and it's, it's a wonderful program. If you guys would like to learn more about that, your practicemaster.com and if you want to learn more about the non attorney sales recruitment front, which is one of our core offerings on the staffing, same URL backslash, non attorney sales.

A (23:16)

Amazing. Michael, thank you so much for coming on the show.

B (23:18)

Hey, thanks for giving me the opportunity. I appreciate being here.

A (23:25)

You can't scale if you insist on wearing every single hat. At certain point, holding onto the reins isn't protecting your firm. It's putting a cap on your potential. Taking a hard look at the numbers this week. If you got the leads but the net clients aren't there, or if you're the bottleneck keeping the cases from getting signed, it's time to step out of the way and build a dedicated intake team. And once that intake machine is built, you need to fuel it. That's where we come in at Rankings. We help elite personal injury law firms dominate their markets and sign more high value cases. We don't do empty guarantees. Excellence is our standard, and we bring proof over promises. If you're ready to flood your new sales team with high quality cases in your market, head on over to Rankings IO. I'm Chris Stryer. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.