A (3:46)

Well said, well said. And I got to say, the social, you look like you're having so much fun doing it. Like you're always like, happy.

B (3:52)

It's a lot of work.

A (3:53)

Yeah. And you're speaking at pimcon again this year. We're so blessed to have you come back. You were one of the top speakers at our first inaugural event and you're speaking on Metamastry. So maybe without spilling all the beans, maybe there's this why Facebook ads instagram ads, like maybe just, just a few tips, just maybe guide someone.

B (4:14)

You know what I say, why not? I think that people get stuck in like, well, I'm not a big attorney unless I have a billboard or. And that's not necessarily true. If you don't have a strong brand, like spending money on billboards and what I mean by strong brand, I mean something that's intentionally thought out and a logo and colors and the feel and the touch, then you might be wasting money because it's not like you are being intentional about your messaging there. But we do all mediums, right? And once I added in like PPC through Google and the digital and the meta, things did change. Right. You get, we get leads across the board, but I think it's really such a low threshold to start with that you don't have to have such a big media buy to make an impact and, and correct along the way because the data is so good, it's easier to adjust and start with a lower budget. See what works, see what doesn't. Right. So and if you layer that with branding, then it's explosive.

A (5:07)

So you know, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Like, you know, when someone starts, a lot of times there's so they put so much pressure on an individual channel so they'll do pay per click and they want a, you know, below $3,000 a case. Like when you're going into Facebook ads, are you like thinking about the long game, kind of like tv? Like, hey, even if I'm not getting the CAC that I want at a certain time, it's still building the brand. Like how do you approach it from that perspective?

B (5:31)

Yeah, I think I'm blessed to have again, this is one of those things that just happened to be my story. Blessed with a background in marketing and a degree in broadcast production, that was my first bachelor's at University of Miami. Broadcast production and understanding. I don't have to be sold on marketing, I don't have to be sold on advertising. I already know it works. It's just a matter of like set it and forget it and not feel like, okay, I'm going to do billboards for six months and then I'm pulling them down. Well, that's not how it works. Marketing is a long term game and I think that attorneys are so stuck on even understanding that concept that then it's counterproductive. It works against themselves. Like you can't start something, it can't be hot and cold, hot and cold because you're not giving the Brand a chance, the messaging a chance, the channel an opportunity. And I just think you really have to hold your breath and believe in it. And that's, I mean, easier said than done because you're the one that's bleeding the money at some juncture in that story. But it really does give and it's really about just overcoming that fear and believing. And I know you go to these conferences and there's so many vendors and you feel attacked by all of them, but genuinely, these vendors do help. Just hear them out and try them out. And if you do commit to anything, don't do it for a month or two or three, I would say six months at minimum, because that's when you really will start seeing returns on anything. That's just my advice. But I understand being a solo. I understand having the fear of having to pay certain bills and being like, do I hire someone else or spend it on marketing? How do I scale this? And the truth is that if you are successful in this business, you're never going to be caught up because you should be growing like almost faster than you can scale it if you are successful at it. That's what being a CEO is. I don't know who said it best, but it was like, you know, you're riding like a bronco in the wilderness, in the dark all the time, and if you're not, then you're not doing it right. It's like it's just a wild ride.

A (7:20)

So well said, well said. And you've got the background in the marketing. You know, when you started though deploying capital and started marketing, you know, there's that temptation to do Legion, to get the cases like immediately. So you just always just out of the gate, like, hey, you know, most people, they'll say when you start, do 80% direct response, 90% and then do X amount of brand.

B (7:41)

Like it depends on your market. Yeah, I'm in this little market called Miami. Okay. Which is very cutthroat, where fraud is king and staying above that is very hard. And even though there might be legions here that give you a good lead and you're, you're, you're willing to pay for it, there's that scare of how did they get it and will it have been solicited at some point down the stream and it come back to bite me and they ask. I'm the one with the license and I'm the one that's client facing and I'm the one that has to respond to the bar. So I was very fearful of that just because of the very nature of where I'm from and I think that that's market specific. There's some markets that are not as competitive. I mean personal injury is competitive everywhere. There's some markets that are not as competitive and there's some pockets of your community that are not as competitive. I know where I come from and I know what I was up against. And I knew that I had to stand apart and I knew that those guys were never going to be like, well, you know, now she's made her own money, she's going to do her own thing. I knew that if I fell into that. They keep you so well fed that you just become, you know, used to it. And it's hard to ever peel away from that. And I rather I made the decision to take the hit early on and build it than then, you know, set a standard of life or income for my firm that then was going to be hard to walk away from. And I'm not going to say I didn't try some of them. I've tried some of the, more like national people in the digital forms and all these things. But the quality of cases I get from that do not compare to the quality of cases I get from someone that is looking me up, that is calling my face. Right. It pales in comparison. And my cost of acquisition is, I mean, a third of what the average market is in car accident in our world. So I bet on my brand a lot. I'll give you this snippet like we started doing PPC and we really start doing PPC only because other big law firms, the biggest law firms in the nation, start buying my name and I'm like, why? Must mean something. So I should buy my own name because now they're piggybacking off of my traditional media. But we start buying my name and then obviously the, the key terms a car accident in Spanish and all that, but still from the PPC leads we get, 42% are because people are looking up my name and that I attribute to traditional mediums and branding. So that, that goes to show a lot. You know, that's why it's like you have to end up doing a little bit of everything. And it's hard to become a master of all these things. And it's hard to do that while you're also trying to run a firm, manage people, try a case, show up at a hearing and talk to the lady that just lost her son in an accident. It's hard. That's just what you got to do, though there's no easy way to put it. You just got to do it.

A (10:26)

Even up is a specialized proactive AI built for personal injury law firms. Personal injury is in their DNA. Visit evenuplaw.com to learn more. Building a dominant brand gets the phone to ring. But what happens when they actually call? If your intake process is broken, all that marketing spin goes down the drain. After experiencing such massive growth, Amanda didn't just build an intake department, she built a hospitality engine. After hearing what she and her team have been up to, you'll see exactly why her hospitality driven intake has been such a massive part of her success. Talk to me about the intake, like, evolution of intake, how, how has it evolved? Is it, you know, do you have a rev ops manager? Do you have an intake attorney? Like, like what's the team composition look like now that your volume's really increased?

B (11:20)

We have about eight intake specialists in person here in our headquarters in Miami. And then we have like another staff of like 10 in an offshore office that is bilingual, speaks Spanish and we have a supervisor of the team. Then we have a intake manager and then an intake like director supervisor. So there's different things they're all doing besides just answering phones. But like everything. You don't know you have a problem or a need until you're there, right? So you're signing up one case, right? You start off, you're just getting one case a month. Okay. Then you go up to five. Okay, maybe I need an assistant. Okay, maybe I need. And now you're at thousands call volume problems present themselves that you didn't know you needed something to patch that or fix that. So, you know, we've changed phone systems. The tech stack gets crazy, you know, and then how that talks to your clients, profile systems and things like that, and how you make that seamless for your team so that they're not spending that much time on the phone and that they're actually converting becomes a whole science and a whole thing with training. So I mean we can talk about any one of those things in detail and how that's evolved and, and become more robust. But just know that every one of those little things will happen and will require attention. And there are people out there and vendors that help with that. But ultimately it. Every firm is built out different. And I think that we've been very focused on our client journey because people are calling because they saw me in a commercial or because they, you know, clicked on my direct link on, on a metabuy or ad. It's different that if they're coming from a digital form fill where it's a nothing or no one. So we always try to train our people in intake. I think the biggest thing to be, you're the first point of contact for that client journey of like the brand. And we send out a gift to them. We send out a coffee, a little Cuban coffee maker with like two little cups of coffee so that you can just like, hey, sit back, relax, you know, we got the rest. Have a coffee. That's a very cultural thing for the Hispanics to do. And that's really part of intake. But it's marketing. Right. So how. Then you have to ship out these coffee mugs and these cafeteria as well. We call them and make a whole mail department for that. That's part of intake. So it's really grown and. But we think of the idea, we try to launch it as best we can. And then. Trial and error, Chris. Trial and error.

A (13:47)

We're so cheesy. We do gifting of coffee too. And we say this sounds like it's grounds for a meeting or something like that. Of that nature. I'll have to show you a picture of what we do too, but that's from the prospect.

B (13:58)

I love it, though. I eat that up. I'm like, oh, my God, I love this. There was an attorney that their marketing is business to business as B2B. And I appreciate this because I obviously send out a lot of leads and referrals here. They just brought me one solid. And then in the back it has like, thank you for, you know, trusting us during this difficult time. May this coffee bring you comfort as we take care of the rest. And it's just nice because it's like, yeah, tangible and people love it. And they. And you know, you don't forget this. This will live in your house forever. And then when somebody else in your family has an issue, you remember. So that's marketing.

A (14:30)

Did you get that? Have you submitted that to Golden Gavels? Because we got to get that submitted.

B (14:35)

I don't know. We did or we're going to.

A (14:37)

That is legit. I love that. Can you send me one? Can you team send me one?

B (14:42)

Yeah, can we? I'm going to send you one for sure. Once they called us, they're pretty much converted at this point because they're doing it from a trusted branding background and foundation, not just like a form filled with like an AI Persona or agent. And. And we do try to keep them happy. And I always say this. My. My favorite. I guess marketing and brand is The Ritz Carlton, because they do a great job of touching your five senses. You walk into one of those rooms and it's what you feel you're going to be hearing. The TV's on with like waves or whatever resort you're at. It's mimicking that. They're going to smell something, they're going to have something for you to touch, and they usually have a chocolate or something for you to eat. So they're touching all five senses as soon as you walk in. And people don't remember those details. They just remember how they felt. And that's very important for us. So we try to lead our training with like, compassion and making sure that, that there's patience when the clients are showing some frustration with what they're going through.

A (15:37)

You know, that excellence wins his book, that it's our pleasure. It just makes you feel good. When I go there, it's like, oh, they care. And the going the extra mile of taking you somewhere as opposed to, it's, it's around the corner. And all those things add up to the, to how you feel and the experience, the memory of working with you.

B (15:55)

Yeah, it's perception. Because I wouldn't necessarily say, like, I care more about you than the other attorney. You know, I never dog any other attorney. Like, we're all here trying to do our very best and I'm sure we're all qualified attorneys when it comes to services. But does that person feel connected with you? Do they trust you? And what perception they have of you really is what creates the difference in the working of that case and then what comes after. Are they going to recommend you to people? Did you make an impact on them where they remember your name? And many times I think lawyers that use referral or lead gen companies get into the groove of like, they got the client, they did a good job for them, but that client might not call them back even if they did the best they could for that client. It just doesn't impact.

A (16:37)

So you brought this up earlier about the systemic referrals. Right. Like, you've mentioned that several times, like on the brand and the memory of working with you versus the lead gen. Like, after the client closes, like, do you guys. Does the firm have strategies to like, stay in touch? Maybe it's a birthday. Maybe it's like, how do you stay in touch and nurture those relationships? You know, after the case is closed?

B (16:58)

Our client journey is throughout the life of the case and even after they're no longer our client. But for example, from the inception of the call, the scripts that we have for our intake team, and then from the gift they get. But then they immediately get called by the case manager on the case. We try to have an attorney call within 30 days, sometimes sooner, but absolutely. And in the first two months of a case, they're getting a call every week, if not more from a case manager to get an update and make sure things are going as they need to go. And then there's like, you know, tickers on depending what type of case and depending the urgency of the case, the nature of the case, et cetera. And that's all built into our system through, like, task flows. But aside from that, like on their birthdays, we send them a birthday card and we send a two dollar bill, we with it. And then at the closing of the case, they get a big swag bag with a bunch of things and we have like a swag room where they can like, shop in if they want to. And after they're in our database, but they're no longer our client per se. We do send out sometimes, like mass mailers throughout the year, usually around Thanksgiving time. And then we send it to the whole bunch of like, data we have and people like to get back, you know, and it's kind of like a reminder of something nice. And. And Thanksgiving is a great time to do that because it's just that you're saying thanks, thanks for having trusted us, thanks for letting us be in the community. Whatever you need, but you just put it into, like, your calendar and you just do it like a month out before Thanksgiving. Be like, hey, we should send cards to our whole, like, past clients and just do it. Just order them on Shutterfly. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. Just get it done. And it really does make a difference.

A (18:37)

Cuban coffee, birthday cards and swag rooms. These touch points build a fortress around your brand. But at the end of the day, attorneys are in the business of winning. A great client experience must be backed up by the financial recoveries. And Amanda is laser focused on a specific metric to ensure her team keeps those case values as high as possible. Talk to me about, like, you know, the legal side, the extending case values, working up the cases, and because you have put some massive numbers on the board in terms of these recoveries for your clients and taking it all the way. So talk to me about how the, your firm's evolved and, and with the volume, but still putting up these big numbers and trying cases.

B (19:17)

Yeah, it's hard because it's, and it's funny, I Say this all the time. And I'm an open book and I hang out with all these guys that were all trial attorneys and they're like, no, I just do catastrophic cases. Amanda, if you get a big case, you know, you could just send it to me. I'm like, okay, sure, buddy. Like, I've been like, you know, mining for this diamond and I usually want me to hand it to you because, what, you're a better lawyer than me? Come on. But we have good lawyers in our team and we really handle all the cases as if they're going to be tried. Also because In Florida in 2023, we had our tort reform situation. They changed some of these things. So right now is when all those battles of where the law is going to land is happening right now in cases that were litigated. And maybe they're not super high value cases, but it's very important that the judges do rulings and interpret those statutes in a favorable way to the plaintiffs, because if not, we're going to lose access to court. And that is my biggest fear. So we really treat every case because you never know which case might be the one that ends up having to go to trial just because they didn't want to pay the $10,000 policy. And it's a catastrophic injury. So I'm really passionate about what I do and I don't lose sight of like this mission and vision. And I feel that because people do call my face, I have that extra, I don't know, pressure on myself that I need to, like, deliver. And we really treat all the cases like that. So there is no different workup in cases in my office because it's like a small impact motor vehicle or because it's this or that. Like, we spend equal amount on the client journey. Like, I'm not not sending a coffee maker to a client that I don't think is going to be a big case. Like, we don't play those games anyway. That creates more auditing nightmares in house for you to be like, oh, these are the cases that we treat this way, These are the cases we don't. So we just treat them all the same. And that's how we get top dollar on all of them. What we call a tender in our industry of car accidents is getting the maximum policy amount for as recovery for our client. And what we focus on is not how many demands you send out or, you know, how many point of contact you are with the client, but how many tenders you get, because that means you maximize for the client. And that's one of our core values. So we really are trying to, like, look under every place we can and. And see where other coverages exist. So we send out letters of representation to the insurances, to every entity on the police report, from the witness that was standing there, potentially to the driver to the passengers in the other car. Like, are you wrapped? Are you not rep. Do you have pictures? Do you have anything to add? Because I want to know the totality of the evidence in this case to really have the best positioning possible for our client. And if there are some bad things in there, we just absorb them and we work around them. You know, we don't try to hide them, but I'd rather know about them. And I think getting ahead of those things makes a difference. When you're talking to an adjuster and opposing counsel and they're trying to be like, oh, your meds are too high. Oh, but your guy was on the phone. I said, okay, my meds were too high. I compromise. I agree. What do you want to pay though, right? So if you go disarming them, you need to have the information to be able to do that. And we're very aggressive in that front, and I think that really helps and makes us stand apart. That's great.

A (22:17)

And look, I'm not an attorney, so that's the first I've heard of the tender. Is that something that you track, like, as a weekly leading indicator? Is that like a monthly lagging indicator? Like, what type of percentage should a firm target for tenders?

B (22:32)

We incentivize the tender because that's getting maximum policy, because there's limited policy and car insurance. And in Florida, you have zero. Right. That's an exit case. And the person we ask them to fill out a financial affidavit, they don't have anything to their name. We look them up. They only own their homesteads. There's nothing we can chase there. But we track that because if you leave it up to your staff, it could seem like a great recovery on a case. Or you're like, you can justify it, but then you're like, there was more money to go after for that client, and you didn't, because that client did want to get that mri and they were recommended that mri, and they didn't go get it because they thought maybe they weren't going to get that paid for. But they could have gone that. They could have been properly diagnosed. They could have done the medical procedure they were recommended. And that then forces the case manager not to be so Focused on like, oh, my God, it's been three months. I need to send out a demand letter. The demand letter is only going to amount to proving up 50% of what that policy insurance is and not the true value of your client's injuries. Then that's not ready for demand, right? You got to go back, instruct the client, let them know how are they feeling, and do all those things. And we look at that metric constantly. We have, like, little bells and, like, as a joke in the office. Like, if you hit, like, a small tender, it's like a little bell. If there's. Then we have a cowbell for, like, the hundreds or more. Because it really is a feat. Because the way the insurance companies look at personal injury cases is not at the true value of the injury, but instead how much they could save off of not paying that full policy out. And to us, it's an accomplishment when we get them to pay out that full policy, get the tender, because that means that we proved up the case to its maximum value. And a lot of people don't see it from that lens. And it's easy to get trapped into. Like, how do I move my case managers to just get stuck out? So you're tracking, like, how many demands did they send? How many calls did they make? But are the calls, like, substantive? Are they talking to the clients about the right thing? Not just like, hey, I just call in to say hi. No, hey, did. Did you go to treatment? How are you feeling? Did you do that recommended medical procedure, whatever it is. And I think that really looking at it from, if every case will go to trial, what evidence you really need in front of a jury, what story you're going to tell the jury, looking at it from that lens all the time is what gets you maximum dollars. Another core value of ours is excellent reputation. Like, and I think it's Warren Buffett that said it, use money for the firm, and I'll be understanding, but lose a shred of reputation, and I will be ruthless. That's how I operate. Like, I'll take a shave if I have to, but, my God, my reputation better not hurt.

A (24:57)

So I love that mindset. And like, that reputation. It has so many intangibles that could play into this. And just that head hitting the pillow and being able to sleep at night knowing that you did everything to get that maximum value for the client. And that's the first time I've heard that. But that seems like an amazing metric to track. What's one thing you see other PI firm owners Wasting their time and money on that you, you know, right now that they should think about differently. And that's pretty broad. That's. That's throwing it up to you.

B (25:25)

Yeah, I was going to say, like, listen, maybe I wasted, wasted all our money and things I did in the inception, but it wasn't really a waste because I needed to step on that stone or that mistake or bleed that money to then change or pivot or learn something. So I'm a very optimistic person. I don't look at anything as like, you know, that sucks. Why did I do that? What a waste. And I would encourage most people not to think like that because if not, you can just get down on yourself. I don't know. I focus on all my competitors are doing as, as far as like positive things. I don't know, things that they're doing that might not work. I think one thing I can give as advice to other attorneys that before just launching an ad campaign, before just launching meta ads, before, just, just sit down and I talked about this when I was on stage at pimcon last time. Just sit down and give yourself the benefit of really building out your colors, your logo, what the messaging is. So whenever you start dishing out money, at least it's coming from one centralized vision and you're not just like throwing it out because then you will have missed opportunities and you don't even know it. Right. So messaging is so important. So I would say a way to save money and get ahead of maybe those losses that later you'll look back on is giving yourself that, that moment to really do that exercise.

A (26:35)

So wise. Thank you for sharing that, Amanda. This has been amazing. I'm so pumped.

B (26:39)

You're such a high fan, Chris. I want to come on here. You're like, that's great. And that's amazing. You're so what? I don't get that from my people.

A (26:46)

Great advice. I love it and I'm so pumped to have you come back to PIMCON this year, October 4th through 7th. And you're going to crush it. And we're just pumped. So, Amanda, thanks for coming on the show.

B (26:57)

I'm excited. It'll be fun. Thank you so much for making time and whatever you guys need, you can call me.

A (27:02)

Awesome. Thank you.

B (27:03)

Thank you.

A (27:08)

Amanda is showing us how you operate at the absolute highest level. She's built a massive brand by prioritizing long term market share over short term leads, treating our clients to the Ritz Carlton experience, and relentlessly tracking the tenders to ensure every single person who signs on the dotted line, its maximum value excellence really is the standard over at her firm. If you want to surround yourself with top tier operators like abandoned and get the exact strategies they are using to scale, you'll need to be in the room at PIMCON 2026. It's October 4 through 6 in Scottsdale, Arizona. Commit to growth and get your tickets@pemcon.org I'm Chris Dreyer. I'll see you in Scottsdale.