← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
424. The Hard Math of Hospitality: 155% Growth and 7-Figure Cases with David Vicknair
00:32:29
David Vicknair reveals how "soft" skills like radical client hospitality drove 155% growth and secured 76% of his million-dollar cases through referrals.
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- [00:03]
A
If I tell you the secret to growing a personal injury firm by 155% in a hyper competitive market, it's hospitality. You might roll your eyes. I get it. Building a firm in a competitive market can be a street fight. But what if I told you this soft skill is the exact reason Today's guest lands 76% of his million dollar cases? From word of mouth, marketing, and attorney referrals. You can call it a soft skill all you want, but at the end of the day, that's cold, hard cash. This is Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the elite performance marketing agency for personal injury law firms. Today we're Talking with David McNair. From David McNair, injury lawyers in New Orleans, he's deliberately turned hospitality into a ruthless competitive advantage in his hyper competitive market. We're talking unbranded gifts, warm cookies in the lobby, and dedicating real labor costs to the leads you don't even sign. This isn't just about being nice. It's about building an impenetrable moat around your firm. This conversation was amazing, and I can't wait to share it with you. So let's get into it. So let me just start off, you know, building a firm in New Orleans. It's. It's a street fight, right? It's. It's a very competitive PI market. But before we get in the weeds, you've hit Inc. 5,000, 20. 25, I believe 155 percentage growth. You know, what are the top three things, you know, putting you on the spot. Here's the big softball. What do you think if three things that come to mind that kind of
- [01:25]
B
contributed, that one is mindset so your business can't go anywhere, that your mind won't take it as the owner. That sounds cliche. And I'm sure maybe some lawyers listening to this will be like, how abstract is that? It's not a tactical thing, right? It's not a. Like, hey, if you shift your LSA account, this will happen. But mindset to me is, number one is, what do you want to do with your law firm? What are your goals for your law firm? Are you working on your mind the same way you do curls? To work on your biceps in the gym or you would do sledding if you were an offensive lineman?
- [01:58]
A
Football.
- [01:59]
B
It is a muscle you have to work out to help your organization succeed because it'll only go where your mind takes it. Number two, what is the culture of your organization? Another abstract thing, but A real one. And how much attention are you paying to it? Are you highlighting your team members when they have small wins every single week? Are you highlighting your team members when they get good Google reviews every single week? Are you building the foundations that a culture is in place that allows people to feel safe, protected, to be their most creative self so that you can and the organization can get the best version of each of your team member, allow them to grow and their skills to develop along with the organization as it grows. Number three, hospitality. Not what law firms are used to hearing about, right? I like to say most law firms throw a hundred dollar piece of abstract art from Bed Bath and Beyond on the lobby wall and they all look the same. So what is the experience that your customer, your client is having when they physically come to your, when they interact with you along the client journey? Is it more than what they expected and is it different? And so if I had to distill things down into three columns, those would
- [03:10]
A
be it, my man. You gave me the lead right to this next one. So you built this culturally entirely around hospitality. If you had to pinpoint the smallest thing that you do for the clients that generate the biggest roi, what do you think it is?
- [03:24]
B
I would say the one I'm really feeling strongly about the last year because there's a lot of things in our hospitality program is we call it our random gift program. And that is where every team member has a 6 or $700 budget a year across the firm. They can give a gift for any reason, at any time, of any value within their budget throughout the year. A total budget, about six or seven hundred dollars to a client. A lot of them end up being 30 or $40 gifts. But the most important part is none of them are branded. If somebody loses a family member unrelated to the case, maybe they send them a $30 get well box from Amazon. If somebody mentions to them loving candles, maybe they just like had a good conversation with that client that day and sends them a $25 candle off Amazon. Really huge impact, really low cost, both administratively and dollar figure in allocating money in your marketing and hospitality budget to it. But it just goes so long from a human element with the client.
- [04:23]
A
I think that's fantastic. It's a great idea, you know, so you're, you're taking that, that giftology that Jason Rulin and you've implemented and you, you've seen the, the actual outcome you want to get without expecting anything in return. But it's gotta have made an impact on the systemic referrals and the sentiment to ask for a review. Have you seen like the benefits like come hand in hand right to the organization?
- [04:49]
B
It's tough to directly attribute it. Right. And Chris, I am a big proponent in what I call lawyers suffer from attribution disease. We try to attribute everything. I don't really try to micro attribute anything and maybe that makes me a heretic in this world. I don't freaking know. But what I do know is there's some big picture things that we can measure. What do we spend in our marketing budget? How many new cases did we sign up after our wash rate? Industry term meaning how many cases did we have to drop after signing? What was our cost per acquisition and what is Our average fee? 4 very simple numbers that tell you very quickly the health and strength of your business. Right. I didn't want to forget though. It was tough for me to pick the random gift thing over. I would say 1A is our outbound call program. We track it monthly. Every case manager has to make at least one outbound call to the client which is just a check in. How are you doing? You know, the number one complaint in Louisiana with the state bar association for lawyers is not theft of client funds or co mingling client funds from the trust account. That's number two. Number one is communication. And so we feel like if we can get communication right 99% of the time and we can give the client a different experience than what they would ultimately expect from a law firm or expect to get from us, then not only will we get more referrals which sit for us hover around 30% of our new signed cases last year, but we're going to get more quality cases because I think most lawyers know and feel and have experienced that by and large, like yeah, you can get a high value case from a PPC campaign, from your SEO investment, from tv, all those things. But a lot of if you go back and look at as I have over the last three years, those seven figure cases, where did they come from? You know, somewhere between 60 to 70% of them come from word of mouth, referral and other lawyers.
- [06:35]
A
I just had Tim Mackey from Vista Consulting on literally yesterday and we were talking about this and it's like I've always had this, like I'm wanting to get like complete validation. Like you've got the big B2C advertisers and they get the cases but like at what percentage do they get those compared to, you know, the belly to belly advertisers, those that are networking that Building these relationships. I'd have to imagine the bigger case coming at a higher percentage when you have those relationships.
- [07:01]
B
Yes. And I think I'm like a small, my firm is a small case study in it because we haven't been advertising forever. We've really only been advertising for three years. And I can tell you that as a percentage, as our case inventory has grown and our firm has grown, that the large cases become a less percentage of your case inventory as you get bigger and you have more cases. It's just the law of nature. There's only so many of those really big cases. And you know, I did, I did this exercise at the end of last year, Chris. I went through and looked at our seven figure cases the last two to three years that close either at verdict or in settlement. And, and I want to say it was like 76% of them when I did the quick division number were word of mouth referral, former client referral or attorney referral.
- [07:47]
A
That's wild. That's such a high percentage. You know, and you're, you're doing other things too to really this experience from like, you know, the gifting, the you do welcome boxes, do the warm cookies in the lobby, the six month gifts, the advisory dinners, you know, talk to me about like some of those components. I'm really interested in the advisory dinners and what those are. Talk to me about these different elements that you brought in.
- [08:13]
B
Yeah, so a lot of these pieces have been things that I've learned from other law firms around the country just in casual conversation. And so for example, the cookies came from Craig Golden Forbe down in Florida. And the menu idea and, and so we have a menu when people walk in the lobby. We have cookies cooking in the lobby so it smells like cookies. We have a TV which if we have a planned guest, we have their name on the tv. And it's about creating the same way a restaurant, we're in the greatest restaurant city in the world in New Orleans. The same way a restaurant has an intentional way that they do things to make you feel something when you're there. We're trying to do that for the law firm and do the opposite of what people would expect in the law firm experience when they physically come in the client journey gifts like the welcome box, the umbrellas. A lot of that's a mix of things we've learned over the years from Ben Glass and you know, Cassidy Lewis with Cooper Hur up there is great on the umbrellas. At the six months in with the client. Once the client's with you now, at six months in, they get a sky, vigner, jewel or umbrella. We have the random gift mixed in there. We have a specific intentional process for how we handle disbursements. And so we're just finishing this month. I'm really proud of our client center in the law firm which has all of our merchandise. It has a coffee station. It's got Google reviews on the wall. It's got a mural in there. And so a lot of our disbursements and closings and meetings with clients will be done in there. But even our disbursement process, we have a checklist for it. And there's a random pop in from somebody on our executive or leadership team. That's not random at all. It's intentional. There's a Slack message that somebody, whether it's my coo, my office manager, a marketing team member, or me or one of our senior lawyers, even if they're not interacting with the client disbursement, pops in and interrupts. But it's an intentional interruption to thank them for trusting us and for allowing us to represent them. And so all these things, starting from the minute the client trusts you with a welcome box or a gift or however you handle it at the beginning until the very end, is an opportunity, from my perspective, to make them feel a certain way. And you can never be perfect at it. Right. But you can be intentional about it and try to get it right 9.5 or 95% of the time.
- [10:25]
A
That's fantastic. I couldn't help but, and I'm sure you've read the Unreasonable Hospitality, the Will
- [10:31]
B
Guidera book, sometimes my own devices, of my team's own devices, work on me. Some days I told Miles, Mark, he's sitting right here. Some days I walk in and it smells like cookies. And I'm just immediately in a good mood. And I know it's supposed to do that, but it doesn't. It still works on me. And so I think I'm going to shift back around from what we started with on mindset. All of these things have to do with ownership mindset. Okay. Do you want to be different and make the client feel something different? And how do you view the money that you spend on these things? So the deficient version of my mindset four years ago, I'm like a recovering bad mindset law firm owner. All right? The deficient version of my mindset 4 years ago would have said, am I really going to spend $10,000 this year on these random client gifts? And I would see it as an expense. Same way with the umbrellas, the same way with the welcome box. I would view everything through the prism of an expense, but once you change your mindset perspective and you look at it as an investment in the hospitality program, in the culture and in the long term development and growth and health of your organization, the whole prism shifts. So it really does come back to all the lawyers who listen to your show, who are working with you and your team thinking about this, like, what is your mindset and what is your perspective?
- [11:47]
A
Even up is a specialized proactive AI built for personal injury law firms. Personal injury is in their DNA. Visit evenuplaw.com to learn more. David has been dropping absolute gold. He's proven that making clients feel valued doesn't have to be complicated. But what happens before they sign on the dotted line? How does this hospitality mindset actually impact your intake department? What David is doing here isn't just boosting his conversion rate. It's actively generating five star reviews from people his firm doesn't even represent. You're definitely going to want to listen to this. I think that's probably. It carries through the whole organization, right? Just start to finish and. And it's evident. So, you know, like, we talked a little bit about tracting cases and your advertising and gifting and building these relationships. That's kind of the front end. But a lot of people don't talk about the intake. You know, how do you carry that same experience on intake? Is there anything that you do different, you know, from an intake perspective that kind of embodies this?
- [12:52]
B
Yeah. So a couple things. One, we work really hard and you have to remind them. And your training's important. Regular training with your intake teams. But we really always try to remind them, like, look, if it's not a qualified pnc, that's okay. Like, take all the time you need to help. And my intake consultant's gonna hear this and be like, shut up, David. Like, we're trying to get them off that call as quick as possible. I'm the opposite. I'm like, stay on the phone as long as you need to to help that person. We are attorneys and counselors at law, so sometimes we're going to become their attorney. But I heard somebody say this and it really resonated with me. But sometimes we're not. But we can still be a counselor and guide them and help them. Maybe it's a divorce case that comes in, maybe it's a criminal defense case that comes in. And typically this is going to be their experience with 99% of law firms that they call that don't take that case, that person's gonna be rushing to get off the phone. So will you dedicate real labor costs, which we do, and will you dedicate real team and investment and training into helping Those non qualified PNCs just because it's kind of like the right thing to do. Those people are fertile ground for your listeners to get Google reviews. And we're all fighting for Google reviews, right? Somebody who you help in return for nothing is more likely to give you a Google review than somebody you help and they know you're getting a fee. We've proven it over the last year and a half. Our intake team does a great job at getting Google reviews from non qualified PNCs. The other side of it is those non qualified PNCs, okay, you might not get anything out of them right now except for a Google review, but if you made them feel different than the other six firms they called when you helped them, even though you were going to get nothing out of it, they're probably going to potentially recommend you come back to you or think about getting your name out there in the future case, which may be a huge case against Walmart, a commercial wreck or a big slip and fall case. And so that's a real opportunity I think for a lot of firms in their intake teams that has been successful for us.
- [14:48]
A
I couldn't agree more. So many of the clients that we work with and I, you know, and I'm trying to, to shift their mindset here too is when they say no, we don't take that call and they'll give them the, the bar number. Right. Like that's just the easy way out and like, you know, that's what opens up the bad reviews. So not even just the good review opportunity. And I think you highlighted there's different opportunities to obtain reviews. It's not just the close out when you're handing them the check. And in fact that might not be even the best because sometimes you hand them that check. Now depending upon how you treat them is one thing, but if they expected to get a $30,000 check and you hand them a 20, you know, I think there's a lot of moments in between that you can cater to get those five star reviews.
- [15:29]
B
Absolutely. Another thing we've done at the intake level besides just the welcome boxes for new clients is Miles designed, who's one of our marketing team members. He designed a really cool Scott Vigner and Jalora is like almost like a bag. It's like a FedEx bag. Think about it like a plastic bag. And we have gotten away from it a little bit. Our intake director and senior intake specialists are working on reinvigorating this more regularly. But we kind of were like, look, we could put like six to eight Scott Vigner items in this bag, maybe some koozies. We're talking like low cost stuff, Chris, like a fridge magnet for a to do list that we have a Scott Vicknair one. It'll be relatively light and we can ship that out at $9, $10 landed. You know, we probably send about 100, 200 or 250 of those out a year to non qualified PNCs. So we tell the intake team like, look, you use your judgment. If you had a good discussion with this non qualified pnc, even though we didn't take the case, send them that Scott vigner bag. That's 10 bucks. Okay. Not only did they not expect to have you help them for 15 minutes even though you can't take their case and can't make money, but they really didn't expect to get a Scott Vignaer branded with some merch in the mail after they had an interaction with you a week later. So to me it's just like impressing something in their brain that our organization is different and cares so that they had such a good experience with us that they're going to remember us if they need us one day. Which by the way, Chris, is no different than the point of SEO, tv, radio, any channel that you talk about as you're trying to make someone remember you and be memorable so that if they do, unfortunately in our business, right. It's an unfortunate reason that they need us. But if they do need you as a lawyer in whatever field you're in down the line that they're going to remember you and the, the memory is going to be a positive one. So potentially get you that client.
- [17:15]
A
And I mean the evidence of all this is true. I mean, you got over 2200 reviews and a 4.9 star rating. You know the crazy part though is the majority of them name specific non attorney staff. So I got to give some shout outs to Monica, Paige, Jill, Mia, Christie. I love seeing that. That makes me happy. You know, and also the likelihood of those reviews getting filtered, it's got to be way lower.
- [17:41]
B
We still fight the fight of having to like get them reinstated and have a great vendor who works with us, a team member who works with the external team member who works with us on fighting to get them reinstated. And we're pretty good at it now. It's been a knife fight over the years to keep them, but it is less. But it's just, you know how Google is. It's just for no reason whatsoever they can disappear. I think I was looking this morning, we're somewhere between our New Orleans GBP has a little bit over 2200. But if you add up all of our Gbps, I think we're just got over 2,700 Google reviews. And once again, every when somebody asks me like, how do you do it? It's like there's no secret. It's make it a cultural thing, make it DNA. Make the Google reviews and the customer experience a piece of your DNA. And as leadership, you have to walk the walk. You have to make it important and a thing that is focused on and communicated every single week. So that just becomes a part of the organization. And you mentioned Paige. She's in our intake department. She's been in our intake department for about almost three years now, coming up in May. And she's like a celebrity because people read our Google reviews and they're like, I want to talk to this page because there's so many people that talk. She had one that came in yesterday. I put it in our SVWin Slack channel and it was just an amazing review from our local reverend, who she didn't know was a local reverend and she was helping this caller for a case that we can't take. And she spent 10 or 15 minutes and displayed empathy, compassion and helped. And we got this amazing Google review which you know, doesn't necessarily put a revenue number in the firm's P and L today or tomorrow for that happening. But what it does do is when Cindy's husband's neighbor's cousin gets in a horrible wreck with a commercial vehicle in six months and they're carefully studying which firm to choose and they look at that review, it'll I think show them how we treat people who we get nothing from and even evidence further how they can trust us to handle their case and treat them right in their journey and litigation.
- [19:42]
A
I love that. Let me take it back like to the very beginning, like in your hiring process is there, you know, we all try to hire for people to share the same values. Is there anything specifically that you look for that you ask to try to identify these types of people that really want to give and that you can just tell that are going to be the perfect fit for your organization?
- [20:03]
B
And with humility, I will say none of us can ever tell that they're going to be 100% right. So in hiring, we're figuring out how do we put a hiring protocol and things in place for us to give ourselves the best opportunity to write, find the right team member in the hiring process. And we all fail at that, us included. But some of them are. One, we do a test called. It's a preview test. P R E V U E I think is the way it's spelled. So everybody gets tested. That's a pretty good test. Then it's not that expensive. I want to say you have unlimited tests for like three grand a year. So that's one thing. That test gives our hiring team a look behind the veil with their character, the different attributes of them, that type of stuff. Number two, we really, really, really love hospitality experience on their resume. And I would say more in the last year or two, we are doing much better by hiring people without any legal experience. So we honestly prefer if we, you know, if we can get somebody from Chick Fil A or the Ritz or Disney, that's like the Mecca. Okay. In my perspective, you can teach them everything else if they have the skills and the attitude of always wanting to get better and be in hospitality. Those are some things we really look for. And there's just a lot of, like, checks and balancings in our hiring process where they have to go through an initial phone screening. We have a question of that. And so we have an assistant, an administrative assistant, our administrative team, Mandy, who does the initial screen, and she passes through the people she has a really good feel for. Our office administrator is kind of next, and she may interview with a particular department member, depending upon what the position is. And then if we really like them in two or three rings, then we'll do the test and potentially bring in my COO and or me, if it's a legal type role as a managing attorney, to make a decision. And so I think there's like, a lot of pieces of the process. We don't rush to hire anymore. We try to hire earlier and give more time to trains. We're probably over labor capacity. I know it's like I was the opposite four years ago, but now I'm starting to see the benefit of doing it that way. Even though it is a higher cost to the firm and me upfront, I do see the benefit of it and have been convinced by our coaches to take that approach. And so I think all those things have kind of contributed to us having more success in hiring. We obviously put our core Values on all of our posts and what we've seen, which I don't think is accidental, is over the last two or three years, this investment in our culture has by word of mouth spread to people at other law firms because they all talk. And so, you know, both from our on campus interviews with law clerks, which we just completed here in New Orleans and we had like 49 people apply when we started doing on campus interviews three or four years ago. Four or five years ago is maybe like 10, maybe eight or 10. And the non attorney team member roles across the firm, they all talk and they're friends with those types of people who may be the right fit. Whether it's like people who were, they know through their family, who are now a barista or work at Chick Fil A or somebody they know at another law firm, they all talk about the way this place is and the culture and it makes people, it attracts the right type of people, in my humble opinion.
- [23:17]
A
The hospitality experience, like I see that too with our account managers, those that have been involved in that or done, you know, weighted tables. The served humans right and, and dealt with a lot of humans and, and not everything goes perfect. So they know how to handle adversity. They, it's, it's not an easy job either. So a lot of times when you get these individuals, it's like, okay, now you're going to work from home and you're going to sit behind a computer. It's like they're like, hey, no problem.
- [23:44]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. I think back to a team member we lost. She went to a different industry, but she's somebody I'd take back in a heartbeat. And it was like, what did she do before she came here? Within two months, she was probably one of the better case managers we had in the entire firm in two months. But before that she had been for eight or nine years at the same facility as a drug and addiction counselor. And so what that told me is like, man, if she can be really good as a drug and addiction counselor at the same place for eight or nine years, what a difficult and challenging job. This place is going to be an effing cakewalk. Right? I just think we have to think outside the box a bit. When I started my own practice and years ago we were talking about my deficient mindset, it was like, I need someone with this much legal experience now. I think we have to take a fresh perspective at somebody's experiences and understand that all of this can be taught. I mean, Miles is sitting in the Room with me. He was two years at a local TV station, and his only experience before he became my marketing coordinator, he's coming up on two years, was he was on the local news, so I kind of backed as backwards into that one. Luckily that, you know, we had somebody who we hired who was very talented in photo and video, which allows us now to be very successful in producing a lot of great content. Because he's got a real talent in that, all the marketing stuff. He's learned so much in nearly two years of being here. He's very capable. He's a hard worker. He's a great team member. He fits the culture. So, like, he didn't have any marketing experience, but so what? All that can be learned. And so I think it is all perspective in looking holistically at what their professional and life experiences are and figuring out are they the kind of person who can learn and execute the types of things that we do within our law firms.
- [25:25]
A
Everything he's saying is it's like so intoxicating. It like, it makes sense. It's like, it's like what you want to hear when you're talking about somebody's business and how they treat people and how. And like the relation. I mean, a lot of us spend more time with our employees, like, I hate to say it, than maybe my wife I know or family members. I mean, I'm checking in every single day. It's just wild. So I think that's incredible and finding these individuals that are capable.
- [25:53]
B
I try to lead now most things with the organization and with the people here from a place of love, not fear, and from a place of empathy, not ruling with an iron fist. And some lawyers may think when you're dealing with your teams like that, that that is a place of weakness and they'll come from a place of fear. Oh, but if I do, I mean, I've heard all the crap, Chris. Like, if I do that, then this. If I do that, then they'll leave. Okay, like, if they'll leave, they'll leave. But how about you make a place that's so wonderful they won't want to leave that you like. I spend more time on our Slack channel highlighting things every week that people do exceptionally than I ever thought imaginable in the last year and a half. A deficient mindset, which I used to have, would say, if I make this person like Miles sitting back there think know how wonderful he is and how special he is, that maybe he'll leave. Okay, well, maybe he'll leave anyway. So Maybe I'll just treat him the way I would want to be treated and praise him when he does good things and when he does something that's a mistake, make him and everybody else in the organization know that this isn't a mistake. It's a lesson for how we grow. And now it's given us a training opportunity. And so the biggest book that I could say that I would recommend people to read on this front is Leaders Eat Last, which Simon Sinek really dives down into our basis human instincts and why if you want to build a good team, you have to make them feel safe and you have to make them feel protected and you have to elevate them. And if. If you do those things, you will attract good people, in my humble opinion, and you will build a meaningful organization and do something more than just make a law firm bigger or make a little bit more money. You will impact other people's lives. I think the biggest thing that we have to think about as law firm owners and leaders, and Simon Sinek talks about this, is there is no greater opportunity for us than to serve others who serve. So our people serve our clients. As a leader, as my leader, I tell my leadership team all the time, this is our ethos. We serve our people like they. We work for them, they work with us, and we work for them. And so if we can elevate them and train them and give them lessons when they fall to become better, then it will only benefit our clients and our organization as whole and we'll actually do something impactful and meaningful with our freaking lives.
- [28:09]
A
David, this has been an absolute masterclass on culture hospitality. I'm eating up everything you're saying about this. You know, where can people go to connect with you if they have questions about the pod, they want to refer a case to you and also let them know about your podcast as well. Give them all the call to actions.
- [28:29]
B
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Chris. So we're an episode, I don't know why is it episode 96 of the podcast, the overall podcast by Scott Vic Nair, Law Firm Firm. And so you can find our podcast on YouTube, on all the channels, whether it be Spotify, Apple, Music. The law firm is scottvigner.com we're on every social media outlet. We're pretty hard to find. And I'm actually also writing twice a week with a friend of mine, Tony Albrecht with Contender. So we write now two articles a week on LinkedIn, which I'm just having a great time doing and really writing things that are on my mind. I've been writing. Last year I wrote everything myself and it was a bit, it was a big commitment and got somebody in to help me to kind of systematize that the way we systematize everything in the firm. So you can find me on LinkedIn and all those articles are what I'm really every month me and Tony go through like, what am I passionate about? What am I, what do I want to talk about this month? And you pretty much find us anywhere. And I really just wanted to say, Chris, thanks so much for having us on the show. It was a great discussion.
- [29:25]
A
David, thanks so much for coming on the show. David proved today that treating people like gold isn't just a soft skill. It's how you turn your reputation into your biggest revenue driver. From sending unbranded gifts and baking fresh cookies in the lobby to treating your leads you can't even sign like absolute VIPs. The ROI on genuine hospitality is undeniable. But before you give those clients a five star experience, you need to get them to call you first. That's what we do at Rankings IO. We drive elite high intent personal injury leads to your firm so you can focus on rolling out the of the rest. Carbon. Go to Rankings IE to dominate your market today. I'm Chris Dreyer. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind.