← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
427. Double Your Average Case Value: The Intake and Data Fix w/ Michael Ponce
00:26:45
Discover how Michael Ponce overhauled his intake process and used data dashboards to successfully double his firm's average case value.
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- [00:01]
A
Every firm owner thinks they can sign 100% of the cases they want, but when you actually look at the data, the reality is usually a wake up call. Today's guest realized valuable cases were slipping through the cracks, and he completely overhauled his intake process. The result? He more than doubled his average cases. And the good news is that you can do it too. This is Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the elite performance marketing agency for personal injury law firms. Today I'm sitting down with Michael Ponce from Ponce Law in Nashville. We talk about community led marketing generating massive review volume and the data dashboards that run as firm. Let's get into it. So I like to start off with a win. You know, what's something you're excited about in the biz or for your clients? Just anything that comes to mind.
- [00:48]
B
Well, probably our biggest thing that we've had over the last couple of years is we've been able to increase our average case value on all our cases. That's been a big focus of ours and it's, it's really paying off. We've more than doubled our average case value and really focused in on getting the most out of each and every one of our cases.
- [01:07]
A
I gotta follow up on that. Cause the audience wants to know. So you filing more, is it the medcron demands, like, what are some of the components that you did that are really increasing those fees?
- [01:17]
B
Well, we really focused in on making sure that we get the right cases and with the right attorneys. So we try to spend some time on the front end of all our cases, kind of making sure that we're ranking them to determine also the case areas so that we have our best attorneys, our most aggressive attorneys working on our largest cases. And one time, if you can believe it, we just kind of randomly, you know, have a rotation and you got what you got. And, you know, not all the attorneys are as experienced as others, not all attorneys are as aggressive as others. And we want to make sure that our big cases are going with our best attorneys. We also round table all of our cases that we consider in our Pareto point cases, which is the point that 20% of the cases that kind of bring in 80% of revenues make sure that we're meeting on a regular basis on those cases to brainstorm, figure out what we can do to get the best possible recovery on all of those cases. We also set a minimum settlement value on those cases so that the attorneys know what the consensus is as to what that case is. Worth.
- [02:22]
A
Super smart, I think. I had Chad Dudley on the show a while back, and he had a kind of a formula for rating cases, and he talked about the same thing, like, you know, the Pareto principle. And, you know, I'm even seeing that on intake now where there's some tools like Shadow and others where you can kind of barge in. So it hits that criteria that. Oh, that's a commercial policy. Let me bring in a senior intake rep.
- [02:47]
B
Absolutely. And Chad Dudley's been a pioneer in this area. They've come up with so many innovations to run their offices as efficiently as possible. And we've kind of borrowed a lot of those ideas, made them our own, adapted them for our circumstances, and we really appreciate the good work that they do as well.
- [03:08]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about. Everything they want, the audience wants to know about is attracting those cases. So, you know, community involvement, to start, is clearly huge for you. I've heard a rumor that you play the guitar in the public from time to time. You know, is, how does boots in the ground affect your. Your marketing? Like. Like, how do you think about attracting cases and generating business for the firm?
- [03:31]
B
Well, one of the things that we do is we do have in our area here in Nashville, Tennessee, a very competitive market. Our spend per household for television, that's what we can measure. The easiest is one of the higher ones in the country. Not the highest, but it is one of the higher ones in the country. And so we know we're facing a lot of competition. We have national law firms, you know, the names that we're competing against. And so we try to look for the things that could help distinguish us from our competitors. Being right here, living here, There are a lot of things that we can do that they either can or won't. And community involvement, being there for your little league team, your soccer team, playing music, things like that, Fundraisers are all things that we can do. We do a lot with the American Red Cross, I would say, as far as my musical skills, that may be repelling more clients than it attracts, but we enjoy doing it anyway and do raise some good money for causes. And we, in all honesty, we do have some really talented musicians that are a part of our office. And then plus me.
- [04:31]
A
That's a lot of fun. That's awesome. Yeah. And I see, you know, with all the AI changes and the national players coming in, you know, they. They typically will come in and just do the distribution, the digital or. Or the media buys, and that belly to belly, community involvement is what can really solidify and kind of help you own that, that piece of the market. So I think that's super smart.
- [04:55]
B
It's a lot of work, but it's also really rewarding, to be honest with you. I mean, we got into this business to serve clients, to serve our community in the first place. And the people that we want to attract have part of our team want to be involved in the community as well. So not only does it attract clients, but it helps us attract team members, the type of team members that we want on this. I think we all want to be a part of something bigger than whatever it is we do on a day to day basis. And if your job is to answer phones or to call and get medical records, things like that, you kind of want to see the higher purpose, what is being accomplished by this. And those types of things that we do in our community are a constant reminder of the good that they're doing
- [05:39]
A
going hand in hand with the community and the grassroots. We gotta talk about your reviews. So you've got 300 plus reviews in West Nashville. You got 300 plus reviews in downtown Nashville, you got 700 plus reviews in Goodletsville. But the thing that stood out for me is a ton of these include photos. So talk to me about your review process. How are you incentivizing the team, getting them involved in acquiring these important reviews?
- [06:11]
B
What we do is we try to talk with all of our clients at the time that we're dispersing, if not before then, but certainly when we're dispersing, we want all our attorneys to come in and personally meet with the client at that time. Because I always feel like this is the last, best time to make sure that they know that we appreciate referrals, that we want them to come back if they have any sort of legal needs in the future that they can call us. Even if it's outside our practice area, we want them to call us because we'll make sure that we refer them to a law firm that does practice, if it's in that area. If they need a will draft, anything like that, we'll make sure they get in really good hands. And it's also a good opportunity to ask them if they're happy, if they would take the time to give us a good review. And I'll come in for a lot of those as well. A lot of times they like to get pictures with their attorney. Because we've advertised pretty heavily in the Nashville market for, you know, decades. I have some sort of status that people sometimes like to get A photograph with, shake my hands and stuff. And so I'll come down and meet, meet with them and we'll, we'll, we'll chat and they want to photograph with me. I'm happy to, happy to do that as well. And I think that personal touch and just looking people right in the eyes and asking them for the review because, you know, if you wait on some sort of process where you're calling them a week later or something like that, they may intend to do that. But somehow, you know, we all get busy with life and they never get around to it. So just being really proactive and asking, you gotta ask. I love that it sounds simple, but a lot of times people don't do it. And I've even had some team members that, you know, client loves them, loves the work they did, but they somehow were a little bit embarrassed to ask, telling me, you know, if you feel embarrassed to ask, call me, I'll come down and ask right there. I have no qualms about that. If they're happy, let people know.
- [07:55]
A
I think the, I think too, the more they ask, the easier it gets too, you know. Over time, Michael's built an incredible local moat around his firm using grassroots marketing. But he isn't resting on his laurels. Consumer behavior is changing and the old reliable channels are shifting fast. Let's get into how Michael thinks about his marketing mix today and the massive wake up call that he had when he finally looked under the hood of his intake department. So you've been doing broadcast television a lot like how do you think about the marketing mix right now? We got the streaming, we got paid social and TikTok and geo generative engine optimization with these LLMs and searches change. How do you think about the marketing mix today?
- [08:40]
B
It is constantly evolving, but I've been through changes in the past. At one time I was on every back of a yellow page book in the middle Tennessee area. That went away. We switched over and did a lot more television. Now we're in the process of switching over again to more streaming. If you talk with the. I talk with the young people in our office, they do not watch broadcast television ever. They don't have it. They don't have it. Wouldn't be able to do it if they want to. So broadcast television is a still important market for us, but it is ever decreasing. And so we're gradually shifting and changing to streaming and trying to focus in on optimizing our website for SEO. Still need, that's a constant process. We need to do more. There but we're doing everything we can as. As this market evolves. And it's. We're right in the midst of a big sea change.
- [09:31]
A
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, first of all, the streaming TV. I mean, I'm a YouTube TV guy and I've got all the streaming services. I finally got my parents on YouTube TV. If only I could convince. I'm taking care of my mom's hallmark. If only I could I get her off that. The she. Every time that's, you know, the login's messed up, I get the call.
- [09:51]
B
And we're also in the process of trying to take existing content that we have on our web and putting it in a more digestible form, breaking it up into smaller pieces, putting it more in a FAQ format where it's. People don't have to read a long article. It's just short segments because traditionally I've done a lot of that content where I've just kind of rambling dictate. And it's a long blog, but it's not very searchable, it's not AI friendly. And you know, we're having to put a lot of work into redoing a lot of our content that we have.
- [10:26]
A
Yeah, in the past that, that Gigantor page was the way to go. And now it seems like, you know, chunking up your content into these individual sections and making it more digestible is significantly more valuable. It just costs so much to crawl the page from a. From their perspective. They're. They're going to want to crawl and summarize the page and avoid JavaScript and all those things. So I think that's super smart. Talk to me about intake. So you've got this big attraction machine. How do you think about intake? Or, you know, talk to me about your tech stack, your, like how you think about your team and those components.
- [11:02]
B
Well, I'll talk about our intake team first because that's been a major focus of ours for years. One of the things that I used to believe is that I signed up every single case that we wanted. People would ask that. I'd say my signup percentage was 100%. If we wanted it, we always got it. When we really started to dig deeper, bring in some expertise with our intake department, we realized quickly that that was not the case at all and that we were losing leads. Good cases that were going out the door, they weren't identified properly as a case that we wanted. We assumed that our intake team just had absorbed what was a good case. What was not a good case. We didn't have a formalized process at one time for evaluating cases and a formalized intake criterion flowchart. We've revamped that several years ago. And we run our numbers so we know how many leads each of our intake team members are getting, what their want ratio is. That's the percentage of cases that they want by case category, what their signup percentages is, which, how many cases they're, they're still chasing. And when you have those numbers and it's automated so you've got it in a, in a dashboard and they can see it, your intake manager can see it, it's a lot easier to control and manage when it's right in front of you all, all the time. And so when we have a dip, when we have somebody whose numbers are a little off, we can do some additional coaching. We can listen in through CallRail, the calls, see if they need additional on how to handle cases. And it's a constant process. And I will tell you, even when you think you've got it perfected, if you take your eyes off the ball for very long, you'll start to see it in the numbers and you gotta go back in and redo it. Because we're human, our intake team members are human and we all need coaching. I need coaching. Everybody does.
- [12:55]
A
I couldn't agree more. And a few things you mentioned there, I liked how you said your wanted percentage, but also you said per case category. Right. So many people are. You hear that number thrown around 92% wanted case. Well, what's the traffic source? You know, also, you know, brand versus, you know, pay per click, so to speak. Or your different case types auto, you know, of course, hitting those 90s. But like what about premises, what about these other areas of law?
- [13:22]
B
Right. We do lots of different practice areas and for sure we want to be careful that our want rate's not too high because that may be that we're taking on cases we shouldn't be taking. They don't meet our intake criteria and we're going to get bogged down on a, on a case that we can't help the client with. And so we look at if it's too high or if it's too low. And certainly it's going to vary by case type. Our premises liability want rate is and should be lower than it is for auto. Our work comp is because of work comp reform we've had in Tennessee is lower than either one of those categories. You know, Social Security is a different Number. So you've got to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
- [14:05]
A
That makes complete sense. Talk to me about the data component. How are you collecting the data? Is it going into, you know, a power bi. A domo? Do you have like a data analyst? How are you collecting the data so that you can digest it and make the good decisions?
- [14:20]
B
We had a company come in and build custom dashboards for us with the information that we wanted. It goes through our case management system and automatically collects that information. We use Smart Advocate at our office, but the same, same thing is done with Litify with filevine. I'm not familiar with the Neos product, but I'm sure that does that as well. Or you can use an outside component such as lead docket.
- [14:46]
A
Yeah, I heard the former founder of Twitter, Dorsey was talking about, he was interviewed and asked like, what was his biggest failure at PayPal. And he said that they just, they didn't set up an administrative dashboard to look at the data closely enough. And they were too many, I think, conversations. And that's how they were making decisions. And now it's the first thing that they set up.
- [15:06]
B
Yeah, there's nothing worse than making important decisions without the data because otherwise you're just guessing and hunches. And so many of our what we think is accurate and true isn't when you really drill down.
- [15:22]
A
Even up is a specialized proactive AI built for personal injury law firms. Personal injury is in their DNA. Visit evenuplaw.com to learn more. You can't manage what you don't measure. Building a custom dashboard forces you to face the reality of your operation operations. It removes the emotion and the guesswork. But once your marketing is humming and your intake is dialed in to capture every lead, the pressure moves downstream to your delivery. And as your firm scales, the biggest bottleneck isn't usually the market. It might be you just trying to change too fast and too much. In the opening, you talked about kind of moving over to the operations and kind of delivery. You talked about, hey, we. You identify these key cases and like, talk to me about your structure because yeah, you're doing workers comp, you're doing a variety of cases and that lends itself to complexity. Right? It's not just the assembly line of auto. Just, just push it down the line. So talk to me about how delivery's evolved and how you think about working up cases.
- [16:27]
B
Well, it's going to depend on the course, the case types. I mean, the Social Security is totally different. That's a different department. The People that work on Social Security cases do not work on any other case type. The people that work on work comp are only working on work comp cases. We don't try to have a jack of all trades for any of those case types. And certainly our trucking team, which is something we've focused in on, they're working on trucking cases. They're all different. And those, like the trucking cases, are going to be cases where they're going to be very labor intensive. Those pods are not going to have a high volume of cases. They need to be able to concentrate on those. And so it's going to be a lower volume of cases. They're expected to really stay on top of those, to have communications with the client on a very regular basis. Early stages of those we're calling every single week.
- [17:18]
A
Yeah, that makes complete sense. I mean, and you can allocate more resources to those pods because they're just worth more as opposed to maybe a lean case. That's minimum policy or whatever your minimum threshold is. Talk to me about just the evolution of, you know, you're getting more values and like, like, talk to me about maybe a big constraint or bottleneck that you guys have kind of overcome. I know that as the wearing the CEO hat, the owner hat, there's, there's the. You do that one and then there's the next bottleneck. But like what was maybe a big constraint, something important that changed and made a big impact.
- [17:54]
B
The biggest constraints you have are rate of change. As an owner, I'm wanting to do everything all at once immediately. And what I've discovered over time is I'm putting too much pressure on our team members. And what we need to do is know exactly what we want to do, but break it down into steps and realize that, you know, we're going to go with the lowest hanging fruit first. Accomplish that and we won't make that other change, even though it needs to be made. We want to make it until after we've completed, you know, one job at a time. And so just accepting that a little bit more patience, give your team time to adjust is necessary. So some, sometimes the owner, sometimes the CEO can be the impediment because we're pushing so hard for change and it just overwhelms our team.
- [18:37]
A
I think me and you are speaking the same language. I think that personnel, that disc assessment, that high d. I heard Bezos was interviewed and this engineer he was working with, and I'm going to get this quote wrong or this conversation wrong, but he said, the engineer said, jeff, you have enough ideas to kill the company. Because, like, there's certain points where you can only allow so much change. And I also heard her Mosey say something about when you make a big change, it's always 20% worse at the beginning until it gets significantly better. So now I'm. I'm trying to consciously do the same thing as you. I'm trying to, like, okay, even my frustrations, like on Eos, you got these 90 day rocks. And I'm like, it's like. It's like, it makes me anxious. Like, 90 days, like, they're supposed to be the most important thing that you want to do at the firm, you know, for the company. Like, let's do them in 30 days.
- [19:29]
B
I'm that same way. Just highly impatient. Let's have it all.
- [19:32]
A
All immediate.
- [19:33]
B
But I think a little patience is that I've gotten as. I've, as I've done this longer, gotten a little older, has definitely helped. You know, sometimes too, you know, as a firm evolves, not everybody's ready to make that change. And sometimes your team has to evolve as well. And that's always tough.
- [19:51]
A
Yeah, that's definitely the tough part. And it's clear that you care about the team and the culture and all the things that you're doing. I saw that, you know, you were, I think, the first personal injury law firm to receive the Better Business Bureau's Torch Award for Ethical Commerce, which is extremely unique. It's the first time that I've heard of a PI firm obtain that, you know, award. So talk to me about that.
- [20:13]
B
Yeah, that's. That's one that we were really, really proud of. It's not one that we expected, but to receive that award and being the only personal injury firm for many years that had ever received that, I think there's one other firm up in Kentucky that's now received that is just an indication of the service level that we provide to our clients. We really care about them. We care about our team members. And we have the type of people on our firm that just bleed and, you know, die for these clients, and they really appreciate it. And if we have a client that's unhappy for some reason, we'll do everything we can to make them happy. And if that means whatever change is necessary, we'll do it.
- [20:54]
A
That's the epitome of the golden rule, right? To treat people how you would like to be treated. And hear that from everything we've said throughout this conversation that you've said, that's
- [21:04]
B
what we're called to do.
- [21:06]
A
That's incredible. Talk to me about the future, your vision. We're seeing a massive shift with AI and automation. How are you approaching trying some of the new AI tech or this? Just how are you looking at the change in the space?
- [21:22]
B
I think for us so far, it's changed the way we do our medcrons. It's our medical summaries. Same thing with depositions. We're using it more and more to help us be efficient and find things that we might have otherwise missed. And so it's been a big blessing for us. And there's more work that we need to do and I just can't imagine what it's going to be like in a few years. As advanced as it is right now. One of the things that I've started doing is just as I come up with ideas, just have a dialogue with it. To brainstorm has been very useful from a management perspective.
- [21:58]
A
So talk to me about your locations. Right, you're throughout Tennessee, multiple locations. Your expansion. Talk to me about the evolution of your expansion and how you think about your market.
- [22:09]
B
Well, we've expanded just because space in our main office has kind of got limited. We outgrew that. Also, we wanted to be convenient for our clients. And a lot of the growth is not where it's where I live, but also more so in some other areas south of Nashville. So we wanted to have offices that would be more convenient for our clients. And it's also been beneficial for Google purposes as well, so that when people are searching, no, you're going to be favored and you know more than I do on, on this. If you've got close proximity.
- [22:40]
A
Yeah, absolutely. The, you know, LSA and Google Maps and you know, even the LLMs from a proximity perspective because it will synthesize the information to determine, like who you may know locally, which is kind of unique. It's something that's not talked about. Michael, this has been amazing for our audience that has a case in Tennessee or wants to connect with you, has questions about the podcast. You know, what's the best way to get in touch.
- [23:04]
B
I'll give you my phone number. It is 615-244-4321. The law office is Ponce Law and it's www.ponce law.com. so real simple. And I'm, I'm always happy to talk with other attorneys. I don't really have all that many new ideas. I constantly am consulting with other attorneys and try to synthesize the best ideas that I can from a lot of different law firms. And that's I would say that going out and interacting with attorneys in other areas of the country has help than anything else.
- [23:35]
A
Yeah, that's fantastic. Fantastic. Michael, thank you so much for coming on the show.
- [23:39]
B
Thanks, Chris. Enjoyed it.
- [23:44]
A
Big thanks to Michael Ponce for coming on the show and sharing his insights. We started this episode talking about the trap of thinking you signed 100% of the cases you want. Michael showed us by confronting the truth with real data and a dashboard, overhauling your intake to plug those leaks and letting the Pareto principle will dictate where the best attorneys spend their time, you can truly double your cases. When you're ready to scale your law firm, you're going to need more leads coming in at Rankings, we are the elite performance marketing agency for personal injury law firms. We help you dominate your market, drive serious volume and sign more high value cases. Check us out@ Rankings IO. I'm Chris Dreyer. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. We'll see you next time.