← Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
Personal Injury Mastermind w/ Chris Dreyer
458. The $100K Case That Became $8 Million: Why Every PI Case Should Be Scrubbed for Products w/ John Richmond, Richmond Vona
00:21:14
John Richmond of Richmond Vona reveals how scrubbing cases for hidden product liability turns standard settlements into multi-million dollar verdicts
Loading summary
Transcript45 lines
- [00:01]
A
This is a high performance culture. I mean this is a law firm for litigators. High stakes, big money, serious injuries, one shot at this, right? Like you gotta take that super seriously.
- [00:13]
B
If you want to build an elite personal injury firm. You can't just operate like everyone else. You need to stop competing where you're outgunned and start leaning into what makes you authentic. Today we're breaking down how to treat your firm like a championship sports team. From firing fast and eliminating toxic behavior to a unique strategy that can turn a standard limits case into a massive multi million dollar sett foreign this is Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris dreier, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the elite performance marketing agency for personal injury law firms. My guest today is John Richmond, co founder and CEO of Richmond Vona, a leading personal injury firm in Buffalo, New York. John and his team have been on an absolute tear lately. In 2024, Richmond Vona hit the Inc. 5000 list of fastest growing private companies and the best workplaces list. He also took home the 2023 crisp game changer award for excellence in firm culture. We're getting into exactly how they built the award winning environment and the marketing strategies that drive their massive growth. To kick things off, John shared his thoughts on how a newer firm could possibly compete against legacy brands with massive marketing budgets.
- [01:17]
C
Let's get into it.
- [01:19]
A
I was talking to somebody else about this pretty recently and you know, it's. I wish I would have honestly understood this earlier. So you know, the analogy I used was, you know, especially as a challenger brand, right? You're going up against like legacy brands who the moment have, you know, more marketing dollars than you do. And really one thing that you don't understand as a, as an early on challenger is the importance or the value of brand equity and how long it takes to really build that brand. That is like top of mind awareness when somebody gets injured. So the mistake you make early on is just trying to compete in the same mediums even though you're just getting annihilated when it comes to, you know, marketing dollar spend. So for us again going back to the analogy that I was hinting at is like, hey, we, if I was unfortunately for some crazy reason going to get in a fight with Mike Tyson in a ring, I'm not going to the center of the ring and throwing haymakers. Like I'm trying to run around and be creative and try to just not die another way, right. Even though I'm actually trying to win. So for us, you know, we realized like hey, we need some really high end marketing people internally. We need to be super creative. We need to really find and very carefully vet the appropriate partners, whether that's in, you know, the creative writing department, SEO, paid ads, whatever it is. And we really need to focus on creative and say, hey, what's authentic to us? Like, who are we? Right? Like, we, we shouldn't be saying the same things as everybody else. We shouldn't be doing the same thing as everybody else. Because the reason we started the firm is to change the way people think about personal injury lawyers. Like, people get it. Okay, yeah, you hire us for money and everyone's going to say they're going to fight for you and they're going to treat you like family. Like, let's just be authentic to who we are. We love the community, we love Buffalo, New York, we love western New York. And let's show people who we are. We like to have fun. We're creative, but we're serious people. So let's let it come through in everything that we do and make sure that everything comes back to like we call like our North Star and we don't kind of deviate from that.
- [03:11]
C
That's fantastic. And you know, maybe, maybe you could expound like, because, you know, during the research process, during the pre interview, you shifted away from like pure lead generation,
- [03:21]
B
you know, what do you mean by pure lead generation? Does that mean like your Walker Quintessa,
- [03:25]
C
like that was filling the pipeline and
- [03:27]
B
what did that transition look like when you started to be more authentic?
- [03:31]
A
No, it's a great question. So I mean, look, I think there's a place here and there for lead gen to maybe like fill dockets or you know, kind of supercharge, you know, parts of your firm at times. But I think, look, I mean, there's, there's a, I know people look at this differently because some people are like, okay, well yeah, you get lead gen and then if you have a really good client experience now, you're creating repeat customers and brand ambassadors based off that. And there's truth there, right? But for us it's like, hey, you know, we reduce spending this money, like to fill in the gaps on lead gen. And like, don't get me wrong, like, ROI was always decent. We always, you know, got way more back than what we paid for, but we're not getting any brand equity out of it. I mean, like these lead gen companies, like, if you're even able to see the ads, you know, they don't have your name on them. They have nothing to do with you. Maybe your CAC is good, but like, whatever, like you're not getting any brand equity out of it. So you know, it's, it's really trying to say like, okay, you're always trying to monitor like how much you're spending on leads and on cases but you know, like where could that money go? Or like, you know like just think about how important brand equity is, especially in this day and age with there's so many lead gen companies. You got private equity, you got big national firms and, and small markets that they weren't in before. I mean brand equity is super valuable and it's huge. So you know, really transitioning to saying like, hey, you know, we're going to get cases from a lot of different places. We need to be extremely diversified and we need to monitor things closely. But we need to be spending more and more and more on our brand, on being authentic. I really, you know, kind of cementing ourselves in the community. So when unfortunately something happens, they say, you know what? Those guys seem different. I like those guys, let me give them a call.
- [04:58]
C
I like every bit of that. And you know that that is the brand equity is not there. Look, if you need cases and you need to fill the pipeline and, and you know, get some work for your team, I think there's a place for it even, you know, the CAC there of course, you know, the fall off rate's higher on the Legion and you
- [05:14]
B
got to worry about their messaging and if their affiliates are following the guidelines. And then you get these crazy cases there. You know, one year, I don't know what statute is in New York, but like, you know, it's like two years. The accident happened like two years earlier. It's like, can we shorten that to a year? And like all those things, right. I want to dig in on the
- [05:30]
C
culture, the communication, the standards.
- [05:32]
B
You know, where, where does that start? Is it started in the hiring? Is it personality assessments? It's like where does it begin?
- [05:38]
A
Yeah. So you know, it begins I think with your job posting, right? You have to be very careful about your posting, how it reads, what it looks like. It needs to be thorough, it needs to be exciting, it needs to be clear about what you're looking for. And it can't be like anybody else's, right? It's got to stand out. I think it's such a travesty. You see like these firms like they're basically posting like needed an attorney who's been practicing for five years and has a heartbeat. It's like how, like, how inspiring is that? Like, who wants to work there, right? Like, that sucks. So it starts there, but then having like a really tight hiring funnel that you really stick to. So you know, whether it's like how many interviews you have, who's in those interviews, what kind of questions are asked, testing your core values. We give assessments to every type of person that we hire to see like one, how much do they want it? Can they meet deadlines? And you know, do they produce the type of work that we expect in this role or at least, you know, understand kind of. Or like we're kind of what we're looking for. So it starts with this funnel. But I think you just gotta like, be really, really honest about who you are, who your culture, what your culture is, and do your best to really get that across to people. Because look, we've made a lot of mistakes in hiring because when we talk about culture, you know, culture is such a buzzword. Like, I'm not talking about like some beanbag, you know, high five, like sit around, lazy culture. I mean, like, this is a high performance culture. I mean, we, this is a law firm. We're litigators. High stakes, big money, serious injuries, one shot at this, right? Like, you got to take that super seriously. Like, we're a winning culture, a very collaborative and loyal and caring culture. We take care of our people. But you know, you got to make sure people understand what type of environment they're walking into. Like, this is what it is right now. We think that we can make it better than other, you know, litigation firms in a variety of ways. And, but really, you have no shot unless you get the best people. You need as many A players as possible. You need to pay for them, you need to get them in. An A player will outwork, you know, four C players or something like that. I mean, it's like to get them in, take care of them, surround them with other A players because they don't want to be around, around non A players and just do your best to keep at it. Like, don't get, you can't get discouraged. Like if you lose some people as you continue to grow and it's not right for them. But you do need to like say, hey, how do we make this better? How do we focus on getting the better people? And I would just tell somebody, even like I said early on in the stages of your firm especially, look, I know it can be scary to pay a lot of money for somebody, but trust me, it's better to pay the money for the Right person than to hire a couple of people who aren't going to be right. And have to go through turnover and all that kind of stuff. I mean, just do it right the first time.
- [08:18]
C
You know, it's, there's so much there and I have a ton of follow up questions. It's whenever I post a role and let's say it has a certain comp band, but I get somebody that comes in like double or significantly more.
- [08:29]
B
And like, it's not a fastball. It's like, okay, let's talk this individual. Why do they think that? You know, like, what's the reasoning? Maybe they're worth it. Maybe, you know, a lot of oftentimes they are. And I actually, it's like, oh, let's flag this one because let's take it serious. You know, you mentioned the, the values and having the values is incredibly important, but it's also getting people to, to follow them. So, you know, talk to me about your director of Ops, you know, kind
- [08:54]
C
of implementing these culture initiatives.
- [08:55]
B
Talking to me about any KPIs or things that you do to hold people
- [09:00]
C
to the values and the standards that you set.
- [09:04]
A
Yeah. So, you know, look, it's, it starts at the top, but then, you know, you need to build leaders throughout, throughout the firm. So it spreads out and everyone's holding each other accountable. And you know, our director of operations, dawn, is amazing. And now she brought in a senior HR manager to really help us foster this culture. And it's not just like finding ways to help our team members better, to be better for them. It's about accountability. So it's constantly auditing your KPIs so you know, whether you're a case manager and One of your KPIs is the amount of time you have between when the medical records come in and the demand is drafted for review, or you're an attorney and it's your KPI for percentage of litigation or your marketing and it's another KPI whenever it is. Everyone's got them, everyone has goals and we have to be accountable for them. And you have to hold these people to high standards. And same with, to like, you know, being professionals. Right. Like, this is not. We don't tolerate gossip, we don't tolerate any sort of toxic culture. Like I think we have a reputation, right. For hiring slow and firing very fast. Like we have low tolerance for that because we're here to be professionals. We're here to help each other and collaborate and support one another. But look like we're in a serious Business. We're here to win. We don't have time for that stuff. I mean, you spend most of your time at work. Who wants to be around that crap? We've all done it and we've all been, you know, kind of in places like that. It sucks. Like, you don't want to go to work every day or you're like, keeping your head down to avoid this person. And it's like, we don't want that. Right. So it's constantly finding ways to be more accountable to get better. I mean, trust me, like anybody else, there's times where things slip and you're like, unacceptable. Like, that can't happen because, you know, when there's everything on the line and people, you know, clients have so many options, especially this day and age. Like, we can't slip. Like, we can't be. We're never going to be perfect, but we have to work to be excellent every day.
- [10:48]
C
I'm not a football guy. Who's the Indiana coach? Is it Signati? Signati.
- [10:52]
A
Is he. Is he the current coach?
- [10:54]
B
Yeah, he's the current coach. You're definitely giving those vibes. So I'm not. I'm not a college football guy, but on Tick Tock, I've, like, saved and bookmarked a bunch of his. His statements. So I appreciate everything you're saying about standards excellence. We're here to win, and it pumps me up. Like, it. I love hearing it.
- [11:13]
A
Well, and, you know, what I'll say is, and this is something that we're always trying to figure out and work on, right? So, like, think about. And this isn't. This is even a struggle sometimes with younger lawyers because it's. It's kind of a different mentality this day and age sometimes. But regardless, like, you know, I take a lot from, you know, playing hockey in college. And you're in this locker room with all these guys, and I'm like, the worst guy on the team. I'm the backup goalie. But you're in. You're with all these guys who, like, they made it there for a reason and they had these super high standards for themselves that were ingrained in them forever. So how do you make sure that the people you're bringing in actually understand what it means to be excellent every day? Right? Actually understand, like, hey, you can say all you want, that you want to be the best trial, or you want to handle the biggest cases, you want to make all this money, but do you actually understand what the life of somebody in that role looks like? Are you Actually willing to do what it takes to. To get to that level and continue to grow and like, and. And never get complacent. And that's where you got to be careful, right? Because a lot of people and, like, they're not lying. They mean it. Like, they, in their heads are like, yeah, I want that. Like, I should want to be, you know, the big trial or that everybody knows and shakes their hand when they go to, like, a bar event. But, like, do you know what the life of that person is? Like, do you know how stressful it is? You know how much pressure there is? Like, so think long and hard about that. And as an employer or an executive or hiring. Hiring person in a law firm, like, you got to find ways to figure out, has this person been in a similar environment before, and if they haven't, which managed to not be their fault, will they thrive in that type of environment, this type of environment? This type of environment they've just been waiting to get involved in?
- [12:48]
C
Man, that pumps me up. It's like. Like in the interview process, those sickos. The sickos that went the extra mile to win. Oh, yeah, you can tell I love it.
- [12:56]
B
I was sports, you know, in sports, you. You know, college sports.
- [12:59]
C
And our coaches, the good coaches we had just spoke to us differently, had different expectations, and it just carries through to everything we do.
- [13:16]
B
Building a high performance culture isn't just about locker room speeches and core values. It has to translate to the actual operations of the firm. And one of the first places that an elite standard gets tested, intake. John's team handles serious catastrophic injuries. But their approach to intake might just surprise you. So it's kind of shifting to intake. You know, you're focusing serious injuries. Like, you got the lit pair of legals, you got. You got a bunch of attorneys that. And you are through and through. You. You say this in your videos like, hey, we're trial attorneys. We're not, like, we're gonna fight. So because of that, what's that look like on intake? Do you, you know, hey, that's a soft tissue. Maybe you have a partner or is it, hey, we take the soft tissue case manager. Like, I don't know. I don't know. What does that look like for you?
- [14:03]
A
Yeah, so, I mean, it's a great question, right? Like, like, yeah, we want to be known as litigators, right? Because we are, and we love trying cases, and we know the insurance companies know who will try them and who won't as firms. But for us, it's like, I think you Got to be a little careful with intake. So for us, we take intake very, very seriously. You know, we study it, we're constantly tweaking it. We have somebody who runs it, we have amazing intake specialists. But for us, we keep our qualifying criteria pretty loose, right? Like our, our, our criteria is loose. We sign on the spot. Like, I think like 98% of the time is first call on the phone, docusigned, it's signed before they get off the phone. And the reason we do that is we're very clear with our, with the new, new cases or new clients, you then go into onboarding and investigation and we very quickly get things ramped up and we take a look at things and we've learned that, look, if we ultimately learn quickly that we can't handle a case, maybe it doesn't meet certain criteria or the liability's off or whatever it is, you know, we will sit down and have an honest conversation with that client, explain why we can't help, sometimes even offer to make a referral to one of our trusted partners. And they're just thankful, you know, because you know what's happening. And this blows my mind. Chris. It's crazy. Like, we're getting calls from people who are speaking to, on their face, really respected old school legacy firms who are telling these people, hey, go get the police report or go to the doctor first and then call me back. And you're like, whoa. And then they're calling us, we're signing them. And yeah, some of the people you end up finding out, you can't help that. I could give you a laundry list of cases all day, every day, high six, maybe even seven figure cases where. Because everyone knows with car accidents, you don't. A lot of times people have no clue how injured they are right after. So it's crazy to me. I mean, you got to take this stuff seriously, keep it loose. But just, you have to then have the system internally to vet those cases, to grade those cases. And if you're going to keep them, get them with the right attorneys so they can be handled the right way.
- [15:56]
C
Yeah, I think we had David Haskins on. He's got the speed, AI and I. And you know, I know there's, it's like these given people too much homework, like on the intake, it's like, are you kidding me? Like the police report and stuff.
- [16:10]
B
Like, like that's not their job. Like that's why they came to you. Like, that's wild to hear that.
- [16:16]
A
Yeah, it's crazy. It happens every day. It's like, it really just blows your mind. You can't believe it.
- [16:21]
B
John actually cut his teeth in complex mesothelioma and asbestos litigation. That background gave him a unique superpower, the ability to look at a standard, everyday PI Case through a product's liability lens. I've had guests on the show mention that if a case hits a certain value, you should always scrub it for products. I asked John to elaborate on what that means and why it could be such a massive advantage.
- [16:43]
A
I think products cases are really scary for most. Like, we'll call it like traditional personal injury lawyers. Like, lawyers who are focusing more on car accidents, premises cases. You know, I'll give you an example. So there could be, like, certain cases. Maybe it's a premises case, maybe it's a car accident case or whatever it is. And you look at it and you're just thinking and looking at it through the lens of, say, like a premises liability case. And you may just be totally missing the idea that, like, yeah, this happened on a premises, and yes, the owner had a responsibility to keep that premises safe, but there actually was a product in that kind of like, we'll call it like chain of command that led to this injury that may have been defective, right? Or it may have been. There may have been a bad warning or an inadequate warning. It may have been designed or manufactured in a defective manner. And now you have the super dangerous product. It's put into the. Into commerce. It's out there. And there's a continuing duty to warn here in New York. So there could be like these layered in cases. So I always tell people, be very careful. I mean, even with car accident cases, right? Especially if you got big injuries, you gotta be really careful and look really hard at, like, the car and really talk to people. Because even if your firm isn't equipped, and most firms are, I mean, my firm, we don't even go after auto dealers yet. Like, we have a firm we work with in California that will refer those cases out to. Just because of the knowledge base there and how expensive those. That type of litigation is against, like, you know, the Fords and the Toyotas of the world. But there could be stuff hidden in there. And that could be the difference between, okay, yeah, your quick hundred thousand dollars policy tender, you know, the 5, 6, 7, $8 million that your client actually deserves. So you got to be super careful. And I just think it's like, look like with anything in life, there's nothing wrong with admitting you don't know something. There's nothing wrong with Getting other people to come in and help you. Like, you shouldn't be ashamed. Like, if you don't understand products cases, if you don't understand TBI cases, like, get people in to help you. And then if you get one and you feel like your team's not prepared to do it, bring those people in and work with them on it. Like that. You just got to do what's best for the client, and you got to put your, you know, kind of check your ego at the door.
- [18:45]
C
I think that's great advice. And I think that, you know, and if you truly do the co counsel the way it's supposed to be done,
- [18:51]
B
you know, I know a lot of firms don't.
- [18:53]
C
Then. Then you get to learn, right? It's like, then you get that opportunity. So then.
- [18:56]
B
Then you can you refer it the first time, maybe the second time, or the third time you want to take it in?
- [19:01]
A
Yeah. You know what? I'll tell you this just real quick, too. If you're a young lawyer listening to this and you work at another law firm, I mean, I'm telling you, at least from my perspective as a law firm owner, I am, like, I would be so pumped to, like, to have a young lawyer come to me. And I have one right now. He's about to become a lawyer, where it's like, I want to be your products guy, or, hey, I want to be your TBI gal. Like, whatever it is, I'm like, dude, yes. Like, I'll give you all the resources. I'll train you. I'll bring people in, we'll co counsel on the first few cases. You learn from these people till you're ready. I mean, like, talk about carving out a niche for yourself, like in these types of cases that most people are terrified of. And once you know, you know, your boss gets to trust you and understands that, like, you're passionate about it, you're going to put your heart and soul into it. They'll start, you know, hopefully allocating resources to get you those cases.
- [19:44]
C
It's like, where you put energy and attention. It's like, then it naturally comes back. So. I couldn't agree more.
- [19:50]
B
This has been amazing, John, you know, for our audience listening that wants to connect with you, has a case, Buffalo, New York case, they want to send to you. What's the best way to get in touch?
- [19:59]
A
Yeah, we'd be honored to help you. We pride ourselves in our communication with co counsel. But if you want to send a case, we're at richmondvona.com or at 7 1-65-005678 or you can always reach me on LinkedIn. John Richmond Easy to find, Always happy to talk to other professionals no matter where you are in your career. I like helping people because I wouldn't be where I am if others didn't help me and if others aren't continuing to help me. So I appreciate the time. Chris has been awesome and hopefully looking forward to connecting to other people as well.
- [20:25]
C
Absolutely. Thanks John.
- [20:26]
A
Thanks man.
- [20:29]
B
If you want to outpace the legacy brands, you have to build real brand equity and hold your entire team to the relentless standards of a championship sports team. But it doesn't stop at culture. John has grown his business by locking in clients immediately at intake and looking beyond the obvious policy limits to find those massive hidden product liability angles. If you're looking for that kind of thoughtful, deliberate approach to your firm's marketing, head on over to Rankings IO. We help elite personal injury law firms scale by delivering actual, proven results rather than empty promises. Find out how we can help get you the leads you want want at Rankings IO, I'm Chris Schreier. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'll catch you next time.