Bonus — 298. Scaling Culture: How to Build Teams That Stick & Systems That Scale; A Collaboration with Be that Lawyer w/ Steve Fretzin

Summary

Personal Injury Mastermind Podcast Summary

Episode: Bonus — 298. Scaling Culture: How to Build Teams That Stick & Systems That Scale; A Collaboration with Be that Lawyer w/ Steve Fretzin
Release Date: December 16, 2024
Host: Chris Dreyer, Rankings.io
Guest: Sonja Palmer, Senior VP of Operations at Rankings.io and Host of the LawHer Podcast
Collaboration: Be that Lawyer with Steve Fretzin

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1. Introduction

[00:00 - 00:41]
Chris Dreyer opens the episode by introducing the collaboration with Steve Fretzin from Be that Lawyer. He highlights the focus on building effective teams and scalable systems within law firms, emphasizing the importance of hiring the right talent and exceptional customer service.

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2. Leadership and Vision: Building a Shared Vision

[01:03 - 04:10]
Steve Fretzin welcomes Sonja Palmer, recognizing her and Chris Dreyer’s contributions as sponsors. He introduces a powerful quote:
“If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.”
[01:19 - 02:05] Sonja elaborates on the significance of this quote, referencing Kim Scott’s Radical Candor. She discusses the anti-micromanagement philosophy they adopt at Rankings.io, focusing on hiring trustworthy individuals and empowering them with a broad vision rather than getting bogged down in day-to-day tasks.
Notable Quote:
“Hire the right people, make sure that you trust them, give them that vision, that goal, that direction, and then send them on their way.” — Sonja Palmer [02:05]

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3. Women in Legal Leadership: Empowerment and Growth

[07:06 - 12:07]
The conversation shifts to the increasing presence of women in legal leadership roles.
Sonja discusses the inception of the LawHer podcast, aimed at highlighting women in the legal industry, especially those starting their own firms.
[07:06] Sonja shares:
“When you do paint that picture and you do have those goals, it's very, very easy to buy into this.”
Steve observes a significant rise in women entering law schools and leading firms, noting a shift from the traditional rainmaker image to more authentic and diverse leadership styles.
Notable Quote:
“The pandemic changed things for a lot of women. Flexibility, autonomy—people are willing to take that chance to start their own business so that they would have that agency and that autonomy over their own schedules.” — Sonja Palmer [08:44]

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4. Hiring and Onboarding: Building a Robust Hiring Process

[18:52 - 24:26]
Sonja emphasizes the importance of proactive hiring:
[18:52] “You have to think about hiring way earlier than you think that you need to.”
She outlines their comprehensive hiring process, including:

• Video Interviews: Applicants answer preset questions on camera, which serves as a preliminary filter for commitment and fit.
  Notable Quote:
  “This is awkward and if they will do it, they really want to work here like they're going to.” — Sonja Palmer [20:22]
• Trial Projects: Candidates undertake pilot projects or freelance tasks, for which they are compensated, allowing evaluation of their actual skills and work ethic.

During onboarding, Sonja discusses the 30, 60, 90-day ramp system, allowing new hires to set and influence their initial goals, fostering ownership and clarity from the start.
Notable Quote:
“Always want to make room for personal things. People go through stuff, right? That happens.” — Sonja Palmer [26:07]

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5. Performance Management: Addressing Underperformance

[24:26 - 27:33]
Sonja addresses the challenges of managing underperforming employees, highlighting the necessity of a formal process:

• Immediate Feedback: Addressing issues as soon as they arise to understand underlying causes.
• Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs): Implemented typically over 30 days to give underperformers a chance to improve.
• Termination: If there’s no improvement, termination is handled promptly to prevent further disruption.
  Notable Quote:
  “If there's a weird comment that happens in Slack or somebody's quality is dipped, I'm pulling them into a conversation. I want them to know I'm seeing it.” — Sonja Palmer [26:49]
  Steve adds:
  “You got to pay attention for the 30 days.” — Steve Fretzin [27:11]

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6. Leveraging Technology and AI in Marketing

[12:44 - 17:16]
The discussion moves to effective marketing strategies for law firms, particularly the utilization of AI tools like ChatGPT:

• Content Creation: Encouraging attorneys to leverage their expertise to create blogs, articles, and podcasts.
• AI Assistance: Using AI to generate content ideas and initial drafts, which can then be refined for authenticity and accuracy.
  Notable Quote:
  “You have to do your due diligence... use it to develop the prompt... eventually you can get something that's unique.” — Sonja Palmer [16:09]

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7. Promotional Segment: Supporting Resources and Podcasts

[28:12 - 30:54]
Sonja and Steve promote their respective platforms and resources:

• Personal Injury Mastermind (PIM): Hosted by Chris Dreyer, focusing on personal injury marketing with high-profile guests.
  [28:12] Sonja states:
  “If you can do marketing and PI, you can do anything.”
• Rankings IO: Specializes in search engine marketing for personal injury law firms, committed to generating leads and cases.
• LawHer Podcast: Dedicated to women in the legal industry, covering business, mindset, and work-life balance.
• Rainmakers Roundtable: Steve’s peer advisory group for successful attorneys seeking to collaborate and grow.
  Notable Quote:
  “We are obsessive about it [SEO and legal marketing].” — Sonja Palmer [29:20]

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8. Conclusion: Key Takeaways and Encouragement

[30:12 - 31:57]
Steve and Sonja wrap up the episode by reiterating the importance of building strong teams and scalable systems. They emphasize leveraging available resources, embracing technology, and fostering a supportive and authentic workplace culture.
[31:29] Chris Dreyer adds a final note:
“Keep pushing the boundaries, keep growing. We'll catch you next week.” — Chris Dreyer [31:57]

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Key Insights and Actionable Takeaways

• Vision Over Task Management: Focus on inspiring your team with a compelling vision rather than micromanaging tasks.
• Proactive Hiring: Anticipate hiring needs early and implement thorough hiring processes, including video interviews and trial projects.
• Structured Onboarding: Utilize a 30, 60, 90-day ramp system to set clear expectations and integrate new hires effectively.
• Effective Performance Management: Address underperformance promptly with formal processes to maintain team integrity and productivity.
• Embrace Technology: Leverage AI tools like ChatGPT for content creation and marketing to enhance your firm’s online presence.
• Support Women in Leadership: Encourage and support women in legal leadership roles to foster diversity and enhance client service.
• Utilize Available Resources: Take advantage of podcasts, advisory groups, and expert marketing services to grow and scale your law practice.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “Hire the right people, make sure that you trust them, give them that vision, that goal, that direction, and then send them on their way.” — Sonja Palmer [02:05]
• “The pandemic changed things for a lot of women... they were willing to take that chance to start their own business so that they would have that agency and that autonomy over their own schedules.” — Sonja Palmer [08:44]
• “This is awkward and if they will do it, they really want to work here like they're going to.” — Sonja Palmer [20:22]
• “If there's a weird comment that happens in Slack or somebody's quality is dipped, I'm pulling them into a conversation. I want them to know I'm seeing it.” — Sonja Palmer [26:49]
• “You have to do your due diligence... use it to develop the prompt... eventually you can get something that's unique.” — Sonja Palmer [16:09]
• “We are obsessive about it [SEO and legal marketing].” — Sonja Palmer [29:20]
• “Keep pushing the boundaries, keep growing. We'll catch you next week.” — Chris Dreyer [31:57]

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Resources Mentioned

• Radical Candor by Kim Scott
• LawHer Podcast: [Link in Show Notes]
• Personal Injury Mastermind Podcast: [Link in Show Notes]
• Rankings IO: [Website Link]
• Rainmakers Roundtable: [Steve Fretzin’s Website]

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Conclusion

This episode of Personal Injury Mastermind offers valuable insights into building and scaling a successful law firm through effective leadership, proactive hiring, and leveraging modern marketing strategies. Sonja Palmer’s expertise in operations and Steve Fretzin’s perspectives on legal practice growth provide listeners with actionable strategies to enhance their practices. Emphasizing the importance of authentic leadership and the strategic use of technology, the conversation underscores the significance of a strong, cohesive team in driving business success.

Transcript

[Chris Dreyer]

Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind, the show where ambitious attorneys come to learn, implement, and get results. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings IO, the SEO agency of choice for elite personal injury law firms. Today I'm very excited to share with you a podcast that I enjoy and find value in Be that Lawyer with Steve Fritzen. In this episode, he interviews Sonja Palmer, senior VP of OPS at Rankings IO, the host of our sister podcast, Law Her. You can find links to both podcasts in the show notes. They discuss how to hire the best talent, why customer service can make or break a firm, and what to do if your firm can't afford SEO yet. Let's get on with the show.

[Steve Fretson]

You're listening to Be that Lawyer, Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Pretzen will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretson.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Be that Lawyer with Fretson podcast. We are here for your entertainment pleasure and hopefully to help you be that lawyer. Confident, organized, in a skilled rainmaker, helping you grow your law practice. You know, I've got a very special guest here today, Sonia. How you doing?

[Sonja Palmer]

Good. Thank you for having me.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah, I'm glad you're here. So, you know, you and Chris Dreyer have been amazing sponsors of the show and I don't know that, you know, everyone knows what you guys are doing. Especially I want to talk about the Law her podcast and I want to just have you share all of your experience being in legal for so many years and I want to get into that. Of course, we have to start with our quota of the show because that's kind of our jam. And this is a good one. This is one I haven't seen yet and I absolutely read it. I loved it. I read it twice. Here we go, everybody. If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea. So welcome to the show and then talk about that quote. You had a lot of different options for the quote and you gave me that one. So I want to pick your brain about it.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yes, absolutely. I love this entire book, Radical Candor, Kim Scott. It's a fantastic book, especially if you're new to leadership or new to management. But so much of my role as an operations lead, scaling business, scaling Processes, scaling systems, but beyond that, it's scaling people. And I have tried to adopt a lot of what I saw with Chris and Stephen and how they were leaders for me. And I feel like we have adopted this anti micromanagement philosophy. And when you're a small business, being in the weeds, rolling up your sleeves, doing the work, that's just part of it. Right. But as you grow those checklists, those go collect wood, go chop wood, that starts to feel like red tape or bureaucracy. And these things that were supposed to help you grow and scale are now forwarding you. So I always try to just go back to, like, hire the right people, make sure that you trust them, give them that vision, that goal, that direction, and then send them on their way. So this always reminds me of that, to just paint that big, broad picture as often as possible and try. Try to stay out of their business.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah, it's interesting. Even this morning, someone had mentioned to me this story about, you know, in Rome, there was a, you know, a ton of people that it takes to build a cathedral. And there was, you know, everyone's got their different roles. And there was someone laying brick, and he was asked, you know, is this your job, laying brick? He goes, I'm not laying brick. I'm building a cathedral. So it's like totally bought into the end game of what this was all about and what each individual's role is to accomplish that goal versus you're a nobody, lay brick and you know, see you tomorrow. Which, you know, nobody's going to get behind that like they will. The vision.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yeah. And I think with what we do, I think when you're building a business, building a law firm, the work that we do is important. I think that when you do paint that picture and you do have those goals, it's very, very easy to buy into this.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah, yeah, that's what we're doing. And I think there's a lot of leaders out there that are so in the weeds. It's so difficult to figure out what the message is, what the path is and how to convey that down. And so they end up, you know, that's why, you know, coaches and training programs and all this stuff exists because there's such a lack of knowledge and education in the legal space to teach these kinds of skills. And so there's books you can buy, but there's also a lot of, you know, we've had a lot on the show of these coaches who focus on leadership and vision and helping people delegate, et cetera, et cetera.

[Sonja Palmer]

So a Hundred percent, yeah.

[Steve Fretson]

Sonia Palmer, you're the VP of Operations at Rankings IO. You're the host of the Law her podcast. I'm just thrilled that you're here and give everybody a little background because we're going to get into the weeds on so many different aspects of growing and scaling and developing a law practice and a business. I want to make sure everyone knows where. Who they're hearing from.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yeah, absolutely. I'll try to keep this short.

[Steve Fretson]

You have about an hour, so just lay it out.

[Sonja Palmer]

Excellent. I had a photography business that I started, and trying to market it and trying to get new clients, I ended up doing more marketing for small businesses. People weren't coming to me for photography. They were coming to me, like, who did your website, who did your logo? You know? And so I ended up working with a lot of small businesses. I put my entire town's main street online, and I really had a passion for that. I have a soft spot for small businesses. My dad owned a small business, and that is something that I just became very passionate about. Got very good at it. In those early days of Google and search, it was just fun. You could so easily get that organic search up. But through that, I worked for a couple of agencies and then happenstance, I needed a job, applied for it, and Chris found me, and I started as an SEO specialist. And I. Chris was one of the first people that like, hey, you're pretty good at your job. What else can you do? You know? And just kept giving me more to do, and I loved that. So eventually became an ops lead. Processes, systems, checklists, quality control. How can we serve our clients the best? And have been with him now for almost nine years.

[Steve Fretson]

Wow.

[Sonja Palmer]

Growing the business and. And, yeah. And he had started pim. He's such an expert in the marketing, personal injury marketing, that he had started this podcast and it was thriving. We were just, we're getting really cool guests and we just kind of noticed that nobody was really telling the unique story that women have in this industry, particularly women who were trying to start their own firms. There's a giant gap. And so we started LawHer to just highlight those women in the industry who are killing it, basically. It's been fantastic. It's been wonderful.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah, it's a phenomenal show. I've enjoyed it and have recommended and referred it to a number of the women that I work with. And, you know, it's interesting, when I started coaching Lawyers back in 2008, 9, I was really working with women because they were sort of handed to me by the firm. And it was typically 20% of the group I would get. And then when I started working only with individual lawyers, it somehow still stayed around 20%. 10 to 20% of my clients were women. Now it's probably close to 40. And I'm just seeing, you know, a massive amount of women flooding into law school and flooding into firms and running their own shows and getting more marketing and rain making chops than the men. And I'm just seeing this sort of conversion happen and I couldn't be happier. And the mindset of women of, oh, well, I'm in the friend zone and I don't feel comfortable talking to people. No, they're figuring out methods to get through and build their own stuff. Really cool.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yeah. When we started law her, the percentage was, I think 18% of women were partners in law firms. And just in the two, three years that we've been recording that is now 22. So we're definitely on the right track.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah. And then going out on their own. Right. And starting their own firms, it's like a record number of women going out and saying, look, I don't need to, you know, work with these men or I don't need to, you know, be a part of this firm and take orders. I can run my own show. It's not rocket science.

[Sonja Palmer]

Absolutely. I really encourage it too. I encourage as many people to own small businesses as possible. But I do think that the pandemic changed things for a lot of women. Changed things for people in general, obviously.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah.

[Sonja Palmer]

But I think going digital, the tools, AI, all of that has made it easier. And flexibility, the autonomy. I don't think people are afraid of hard work. They just that Monday through Friday, 9 to 5 is really hard to commit to when you have kids, when you have a family, when you're trying to take care of older pet parents, whatever sort of is happening in your life. And they were willing to sort of take that chance, start their own business so that they would have that agency and that autonomy over their own schedules. So yeah, that's really, really amazing.

[Steve Fretson]

And why is it so important for women to step up into leadership roles, whether that's on their own or that's within a mid market big firm?

[Sonja Palmer]

Really great question. I think. I don't think that it's like it's a nice thing to do or it's the politically correct thing to do. I think it's what's best for the business, especially within law firms. Because law firms serve all different types of people and clients, different backgrounds, different perspectives Ways of life, different cultures. And when you can mirror that on your own staff and on your own leadership team so that those same perspectives are being considered and thought about just helps you take better care of your clients, which I think is the foundation of any successful business is how well you can serve your clients and how well you can produce results for them or results. So I do think that again, I don't even think that it's, oh, it's the right thing to do because it is. But I think it's what helps grow the business are those different, diverse perspectives.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah. And I mean, outside of Pandemic, what I'm feeling is a desire from women to explore leadership roles, to step up and realize, you know, it's not a man's world and there's opportunities for everybody. They're feeling either more on level playing field than maybe in the past where like it was the glad handing old white guy that the golf club that was buying drinks and that was like what was sort of the rainmaker image. And now I think women are realizing that's sort of done or kind of done. And like you can network in a more traditional sense, you can market in a more traditional sense and get everything in more than what, you know, other men are doing in the industry.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yes, a hundred percent. I. Vivi Fell was on Law her and there's a. You'll hear women say this all the time. I used to say, fake it till you make it. You know, I'll pretend I'll go on the golf course and da, da, da, da, da, da. And Vivi said, no, be yourself, be authentic. And I think that resonated so much. And I do think more women are taking that advice because in, by being themselves and by being authentic, they have, there's a value there. They don't have to pretend to be like the men. They have their own unique value, just like men do. And I think that's definitely. And I do think again, the Pandemic is what was once local is now global. And you have so many more options for the people that you want to work with. That sort of, those stereotypes are less prominent or less powerful than they used to be. And people want options. You know, if I'm a mom who's been injured, I might want to talk to a mom, you know, And I think that's. The Pandemic really opened up all those channels. We went online. We realized there's a world way beyond our local communities.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah, absolutely. And there are a lot of lawyers listening to the show. Many of Whom are solo, small firm and there's some big firm, you know, folks, individuals, everybody's motivated to grow that they wouldn't be listening to the show if they weren't. But I know that there's some confusion between business development, marketing, branding, and where to spend the money. Because SEO isn't for everybody. Pay per clicks in everybody. Social media is, should be for most people, but maybe isn't. So where should lawyers that want to build their law practice or their firm, where should they start thinking about where to invest time and energy and money into marketing?

[Sonja Palmer]

Wherever they feel comfortable.

[Steve Fretson]

Okay.

[Sonja Palmer]

I think the brand will develop. I think a lot of attorneys when they're starting, get really focused on their logo and their brand and what's it say. And I think you gotta start somewhere. But content is king. It always has been, it always will be. It's just changing. So I think if you're an attorney, you really like to write, write blogs, write articles, write news, write whatever you can. If you're comfortable in front of a camera, hire a videographer, follow you around. Okay? Just create that kind of content. A podcast is a great way to create, contest, either start your own or get. Find someone that can get you on those podcasts. Generate that content any way that you can. You can put that on your website, you can put that on your social, and it compounds. You have that content forever. Yeah, it might need updated. There might be some evergreen stuff that you have to pluck out, but that it only multiplies. And I think that if people go, I don't want to go on TikTok, I don't want to be on camera. That's fine. You don't have to. It's effective. But you can write really great articles that Google will pick up. You can go and talk on Reddit, offer your expertise. So whatever you really feel like your strength is, start there and then hire people to fill those gaps in. Right? To do the stuff that's sort of trending or popular, producing the highest roi.

[Steve Fretson]

Right. And there's a lot of do it yourself stuff, you know, especially with ChatGPT. I mean, I was talking to a client yesterday, he's in the divorce space, and we're like, where do we get started? I'm like, take what are the top 10 issues that you see every day? What are the top 10 questions that you get as a family law attorney? Put them into ChatGPT. It's going to give you 10 answers. Right? Make sure they're right. And then each of those points could be made into A post. So you got 10, you know, 10 posts, 10 weeks with doing what that took five minutes. Right. And is that going to be the same as writing original content or putting yourself on camera? No, it's not the same but it's. We just, sometimes we just need to get started and get the car rolling and then you can start speeding up.

[Sonja Palmer]

Absolutely. I think for as much talk as AI and chat GPT gets, I actually think it's being underutilized.

[Steve Fretson]

Well yeah, for sure it's being underutilized and it's a. There's a lot of fear around new and there's a lot of fear around is it going to take what I'm saying and like, you know, expose me or is it, you know, going to be picked up? Like are. Is Google picking up articles that are being generated by AI and not giving them the same attention or traction? It's like if my teenager decides to use ChatGPT to write his paper, you know, he's going to get found out at school and he's going to get in trouble. So I think people are nervous about using new technology like this.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yeah, absolutely. And I do think there are dangers within AI. Don't get me wrong, I worry more about privacy protection than anything else versus it taking jobs of creators or artists or something like that. You have to do your due diligence, especially within the legal field to make sure that what it is saying is accurate. But if you talk to ChatGPT the way you might a coach or something and you use it to develop the prompt, hey, I had a case. This is what happened. This is what the client was kind of telling me. This is what I want the goal to be. Things like that can spark inspiration and just take what it gives you and put it back in. Yeah, I think eventually you can get something that's unique.

[Steve Fretson]

You just have to refine it. That's the thing people don't realize. You put in a prompt, it's going to give you something good. Then you say hey, do this again but and then add what you want. You know, my voice or you want it done for small firms, not mid market or whatever it might be that you want to temper it and it just keeps pumping better and better and better information that you can then copy and paste and utilize how you see fit. But it's kind of a no brainer. But again, what's nice about social media from a marketing perspective, it's really leveled the playing field where it used to just be the big firm and the big money people could do something and you couldn't. And now I think if you can get into it and whether you delegate or do it yourself like you're going to, you can get a lot more traction without a big budget.

[Sonja Palmer]

Sarah Williams called it the great equalizer. Yeah, I think that was a perfect definition for it.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah. And I said recently I wrote an article for above the Law, and it's like you're either in the game or you're sitting on the sidelines. You know, you make either way. You know, you make a choice of what you want to do, and it's not complicated to learn. You know, find me, find a friend. Someone can help you get in half an hour. Get comfortable enough to use it on a regular basis.

[Sonja Palmer]

Absolutely. Ignore the bells and whistles for now. Just start somewhere.

[Steve Fretson]

Just something with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings IE prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings IO when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can't deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings IO today. Hey, everybody. Steve Fretzen here. Man. I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what's the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you're a managing partner who's looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America's top rainmakers, please go to my website, Brettson.com and apply for membership today. So I've got an angle. I want to take this conversation. It's a little different than where we've been. It's around people. You're dealing with a lot of people. You're delegating your scale. You know, we're talking about scaling, you know, from one person bringing in their first, you know, associate to the amount of work that's being pumped at lawyers right now in the US and their inability to get it done because work isn't being pushed down, it's actually being pushed up in some instances because they can't find talent. So what are some things that you have seen in your time working in legal to develop talent and help scale talent, scale people. However we want to look at that.

[Sonja Palmer]

You have to think about hiring way earlier than you think that you need to.

[Steve Fretson]

Okay.

[Sonja Palmer]

Once you feel the need to have people. It's too late. I think the first thing any firm agency business is what is your hiring process? Who's going to own that? Who's going to do that? Most of the time in the early days it's going to be the owner. I think that's great. Having that process of how you're going to find talent, hire them, retain them and then termination process as well. So often I think attorneys and leaders in the early stages of business, as they hold onto people way too long and just having those processes in place will take the feeling, will take the emotion out of it and that will significantly help scale. And then I think with leaders having that vision, what are your actual core values? Not the pre things you want to post on the website, but what do you live by? Establish that stuff. You can change it, right? Like it's going to evolve, but establish that. Hire the people who are going to live by that the same way that you are. Right. Use those to find those people and then, yeah, let people do their jobs. Get people that you trust, paint that picture for them and then send them on their way.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah, yeah. But do you have an example of either a hiring or an onboarding, a process or element of a process that you do that you recommend?

[Sonja Palmer]

Yeah, we do one way video interviews. So someone applies. We immediately send them three to five questions that they answer on camera. It's like this. It's just them. The questions are hard. They're pretty generic to be honest. Hey, what do you like, walk us through your resume. But I have found it's a very powerful check because this is awkward and if they will do it, they really want to work here like they're going to. All right, I'm going to put myself out, remove myself from my comfort zone and talk to this camera for 10 minutes.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sonja Palmer]

And just that sort of like gumption is enough for me probably then to interview them, you know, if they don't make a fool of themselves in that one way. Just that they did it that they want to work at rankings and we've been doing it for years and it has helped too. It's nice as like a recruiting tool too because I can send it to Chris, he can provide feedback and you don't have people in interviews and meetings all the time. And then we go back, oh hey, we need to hire for this position and we're thinking, oh, remember that person? And we can pull their video interview up and show it to the new parties, the new hiring managers. It's, it's Something that we've kept for a long time. It's worked really, really well for us.

[Steve Fretson]

Okay, and then before you actually make a hire, do you have them do any kind of like, let's say, their interview? You know, some people interview well. Right. And some people interview well. And it's kind of, you know, they're just good at that piece, but they're not necessarily great at their job. Do you give them a project to do or anything to kind of test the waters before you pull the trigger?

[Sonja Palmer]

Yeah, and we typically pay them for it too.

[Steve Fretson]

Okay.

[Sonja Palmer]

So we'll enter into some sort of pilot or freelance something to. To test them. Writers is probably where this is the most applicable. You know, when you're gonna write. At rankings, we're looking for very qualified individuals. And so we put them through a pretty rigorous, we need three to five samples, but we pay them for it.

[Steve Fretson]

So I love that. But then you can test them out. So it comes back and it's absolute trash, you know, wow, we just saved ourselves from. And I think for lawyers too, that, you know, giving a lawyer something to do to work on a brief, to take something and demonstrate that they can execute, it comes back and it's loaded with grammatical errors or it's just, it's just not what you had asked for that's going to save you from a hire that could have been an absolute disaster. So I think there's so many things to kind of protect yourself to make a good hire because you have to do it quickly. Right. It's like quick to hire, slow to fire, low to hire, quick to fire. Sorry, rewind. And so having a good process for the hiring, then how about onboarding and helping to train? Because I think what happens in other instances, you do a great job on the hire and then you go, there's your desk, there's your phone. We'll start throwing work your way. And they're like, head explode, you know, visual.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yep. 30, 60, 90. Every person that comes onto the team has a 30, 60, 90 day ramp. We usually allow them to influence it. So we will have a standard for whatever the position is. A specialist manager, director. What does their first 30 days look like? 60, 90. But we allow like, what do you think your 30, 60, 90 should be? And that will tell us a lot about the individual that we're working with. And I think everyone sort. I don't know that we state this, maybe we need two more. But if you get to the end of that 90 days and it's not, we're gonna part ways. Right. There's no use in sort of dragging it out. I don't know that's ever happened. Usually everybody exceeds expectations. But yes. Have some type of ramp. Even if it's just like a generic. Understand our communication software.

[Steve Fretson]

Right.

[Sonja Palmer]

Know where just a very simple basic thing that you can add. Super important. Those personality days. KPIs too. Having those establish an idea of what they're gonna look like for different roles within a firm. Also extremely important. You can measure that as you grow and you don't talk to so and so every day you can go and look and see they're on the right track.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah. And so I know I had asked you and in sort of the off interview about some challenges you had and the first time you fired someone sounds like it didn't go so great. But I mean, I'd love to hear what that experience was. And then also what your. How your company does it now and what you could teach lawyers about removing someone that isn't really a fit.

[Sonja Palmer]

Terrible.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah, it was hard, but it easy and fun.

[Sonja Palmer]

It's not any easy now. I've never relished it, you know.

[Steve Fretson]

No.

[Sonja Palmer]

I used to believe that like everyone could be rehabilitated, you know. And not long into being a manager and being a leader, I realized that that was not true. I think for me, an underperforming employee is a liability in a lot of different ways, especially to small burns. And it's not just that they are underperforming. You know, they're stealing from the company, they're stealing from you. They are robbing the good employees around them because they're the ones that are picking up the slack. Right. It's the people that are now given 110, 120, 150% because someone's not showing up. And that made it much easier on their behalf. This person's gotta go.

[Steve Fretson]

But what's the exit on that? Like, what's the. I mean the brief conversation. How is that set up so that. It's. Because it's. It's hurting people around them. It's hurting the business. Lawyers to your point, are dragging this out way too long because that person is doing some work and they don't want that work to fall on them. They don't have anybody lined up.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yeah. I always want to make room for personal things. People go through stuff, right? That happens. Good performers are going to go through things. So I try to foster an environment where those good employees that are currently struggling can come to me and be like, hey, I'm Struggling or I need to take the day, I need to take the week. And we're going to figure that out. You cool? We'll cover it. Two weeks pto, you're gone. It's cool. It's great to really try to work with good employees who are going through something like. That's different. But then I am going to go back to Kim Scott's book. I see it. I'm saying something. If there's a weird comment that happens in Slack or somebody's quality is dipped, I'm pulling them into a conversation. Hey, what's going on?

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah.

[Sonja Palmer]

I want to acknowledge it immediately. Both. So that we can address it, flush it out and figure it out, but that they know I'm seeing it.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah.

[Sonja Palmer]

And then we do have a formal process. It's a verbal warning. Then there's a pip. Performance improvement plan.

[Steve Fretson]

Yep.

[Sonja Palmer]

Usually 30 days, they don't succeed through that. We terminate.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah. And all expectations have been laid out. So it's not a surprise to anybody. And you're keeping an eye on them over the 30 to see, you know, are they actually trying to achieve or are they just looking for a job at that point? Because they know the writing is on the wall. Right. So you got to pay attention for the 30 days.

[Sonja Palmer]

You don't want people to feel like a coconut can fall on their heads. Right. They want. You want them to see it come in miles and miles and miles away.

[Steve Fretson]

Well, and also, I mean, maybe for law firms, it's a little different in the sense that if they're managing clients and there's things that, you know, you may have to get taken back to you, because letting them go when they still have all these relationships or things going on could be sticky, too. So think about it in your own situation and take what you can from it. But everything you've shared, Sonia, has been amazing. So thank you so much. Let's roll on to now. This is going to be. We're calling this segment Shameless Promotion, but it's for a good cause, everybody. Because between Rankings IO and the Law, her podcast, there's a lot of value for you or for people you know. So let's talk about the PIM podcast first, and then we can move on to the other.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yeah, absolutely. So PIM is Chris Dreyer's podcast, and he focuses on personal injury marketing. I think marketing and PI is probably the most competitive. I think I've heard that car insurance is the only other term that's the most competitive. So if you can do marketing and PI, you can do anything.

[Steve Fretson]

Your flow from progressive. Right.

[Sonja Palmer]

There's only one thing, and Chris is the best at it. He just has this amazing knack and understands the landscape and the industry so well. And he interviews a guest every week. We've had some really, really incredible guests, some really, really powerhouse attorneys. It's a. If you are wanting to grow your own business or be a part of a thriving firm, it is a must listen. So, yeah, Chris is spawned, too. He's a great host.

[Steve Fretson]

Yes, he is. I've been on the show. It's been. It's always a hoot. And I've had him on mine. It's. We always have a good time together. And then let's talk a little bit about Rankings. I owe it. And then the Law her podcast.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yeah, absolutely. So Rankings is the company that I. It's my day job. I only moonlight as a podcaster.

[Steve Fretson]

Right, Right.

[Sonja Palmer]

But yeah, we are committed to growing personal injury law firms. We specialize in search engine marketing in the legal industry, trying to create cases and leads for lawyers. We are obsessive about it. And then, yeah, Law her is the podcast that I host, is dedicated to women in the legal industry. Not just PI, but all aspects, all places. It is a unique journey that there's definitely a camaraderie within. And we feature women who are trying to grow, trying to manage, maintain life. It's. We get to talk a lot more about business, about mindset, about families. Had some really, really, really good guests. And season three is coming out in February.

[Steve Fretson]

Nice. Awesome. And I just also want to just give a quick plug to the Rainmakers Roundtable, the peer advisory groups that I'm running. Again, if you're a managing partner, law firm leader, equity partner, doing a million plus, want to be surrounded by other successful attorneys to talk shop on a regular basis, you're going to want to check out my website, fretson.com and learn more about that. Happy to have you audit or talk to me directly. Thank you so much, Sonia. This has been a blast. I knew it was like, you're just such a consummate professional between your podcast and the work you do at Rankings. I knew this was going to be great. And again, hopefully everybody got some great takeaways and things that are going to help them in their pursuit of excellence and growing a law practice. So thank you so much.

[Sonja Palmer]

Yes, thank you.

[Steve Fretson]

Yeah, really, my pleasure. And thank you, everybody, for spending time with Sonia and I today on the Be that Lawyer with Fretson podcast. You guys have every opportunity in the world to you know, grow and scale and live the best lawyer's life that you can. You just have to consider that you don't have to do it all yourself, right? There's people out there that can support you. There's books and other things that you can utilize to learn the skills that are going to get you to the next level. So be that Lawyer everybody. Confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, be safe, be well. Talk again soon.

Thanks for listening. To Be that Lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal, business development and market marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out Today's Show Notes.

[Chris Dreyer]

So many insights in Steve and Sonia's conversation today. If you got value from this episode, especially around hiring other customer service, I'd really appreciate you sharing it with another foam owner who could benefit. You can find all the resources and tools mentioned in our Show Notes. If you need more actionable insights, pick up a copy of my new book, Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing from Good to Go. You can find it on Amazon. All right, everybody, thanks for investing time with us today. Keep pushing the boundaries, keep growing. We'll catch you next week.