Creativity doesn’t come out of thin air–it evolves in relation to the communities around us and the tools available to us. Some of the most common forms of everyday creative works–memes, podcasts, vertical videos–barely existed a couple of decades ago. And obviously, we can’t ignore the changing economics of creative industries, which wield an outsized influence over what kind of work gets made.

Today host Mack Hagood talks to legendary podcast executive Julie Shapiro’s about what it means to be creative in the year 2026, particularly from an audio perspective. Given their shared history in 20th century indie music scenes, they also talk about the ways that indie music and fan culture shaped them–and how practices like zine making shaped the internet as we know it.

But does the current shape of the internet promote good creative work and a fulfilling life? In this frank conversation, Mack and Julie discuss the challenges of making a living as a creative and doing fulfilling work when the digital system does its best to prevent those things.

In our members-only version of the podcast, Mack and Julie discuss the turn to video podcasting and in the What's Good segment, Julie suggests some incredible podcasts to listen to, as well as things to do and to read.

Cited Media:

Nancy Baym - Playing to the Crowd: Musicians, Audiences, and the Intimate Work of Connection (2018)

Nigel Poor & Earlonne Woods - Ear Hustle (Radiotopia/PRX)

Nathan Heller - The Battle for Attention: How do we hold on to what matters in a distracted age? (2024)
Tumi Magnússon - Voyage There and Back (2015)

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction

03:27 Mardi Gras and Mobile Sound

13:47 Indie Music Origins

26:15 DIY Ethics and Community

30:32 Being Broke vs Career Pressure

44:37 How DIY Became the Internet

57:47 Returning to Creative Roots

01:05:12 The Podcast Industry Crisis

01:22:32 Information vs Experience

01:31:21 Making Work in This Moment

Click here to read the full transcript

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The Internet Promised Creative Freedom. What Happened?