Philosophy for Our Times: "Perversity and the Limits of Rational | Psychologist Paul Bloom"

Host: IAI (Charlie Barnett)
Guest: Paul Bloom
Date: December 30, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, psychologist Paul Bloom explores the paradoxical value of perversity—actions that seem deliberately irrational or contrary to reason—alongside the enduring importance of rationality in human life. Through a nuanced conversation with host Charlie Barnett, Bloom discusses why perverse behavior exists, when (if ever) it can be beneficial, and how we might find balance between rational and irrational impulses in a world that prizes logic and order. The conversation ranges from philosophy and psychology to practical life situations, with references to historical figures, current thinkers, and cultural anecdotes.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Perversity

• Perversity is characterized as acting “for the sake of being bad or silly or unreasonable,” not for any instrumental or immediate benefit. (03:51)
• Classic example: St. Augustine stealing pears not out of need, but just "to be wrong."
• Some perverse acts are purely cruel, but there can be social or personal value in small, unpredictable actions.

Paul Bloom (03:08):
"A perverse act is something that's seemingly done for the sake of being bad or silly or unreasonable... but sometimes it could have an advantage... at its best is a way of expressing our autonomy, our freedom."

2. Instrumental Uses of Irrationality

• In certain scenarios, acting unpredictably or irrationally can confer strategic advantages:
  • Madman theory in diplomacy: unpredictability can force concessions.
  • Example: Donald Trump using unpredictable behavior to unsettle opponents. (04:18)
• However, Bloom cautions that too much irrationality reduces trust and desirability as an interaction partner.

Paul Bloom (03:13):
"Sometimes if you act crazy, people are forced to acquiesce to you because they can't do reasonable countermeasures."

3. Perversity and Personal Development

• The desire for unpredictability can relate to autonomy and distinguishing oneself from a machine or algorithm.
• For some, a bit more unpredictability might make life more interesting or support mental health, especially if feeling “too rational” or “too moral.” (07:13)
• Bloom distinguishes his perspective from thinkers like Jung or Jordan Peterson; he does not see perversity as integrating one’s shadow but more as a space for expressing freedom and individuality.

Paul Bloom (07:13):
"Some of us might feel we're a little bit too predictable. I think some of us might feel we're a little bit too rational, too dull, even too moral. And it might be good for our mental health..."

4. The Balance Between Rationality and Perversity

• Bloom is fundamentally a champion of rationality.
• Rationality is essential for progress, coherence, and moral conduct.
• Yet, rigid dichotomies—rational good, irrational bad—are "untenable." Some irrational acts serve legitimate, even rational longer-term purposes, or add value by making life interesting. (09:27)

Paul Bloom (09:27):
"The space has to be more complicated than rational good, irrational bad. You have to have a sort of in between things of things that are irrational but serve some benefit."

5. Societal and Cultural Critiques

• Debate between push for more rationality (e.g., Steven Pinker) vs. calls for embracing the creative, "right-brain" side (Iain McGilchrist).
• Bloom agrees with Pinker: rationality underlies much of human progress, but enjoying art, music, love, or even playfulness is not necessarily irrational—they are other, valuable aspects of life. (11:26)
• Does not endorse replacing rationality with unpredictability or bias in areas like politics or policy.

6. Examples and Practical Advice

• Playful perversity—such as stealing a friend’s French fry—can add fun and unpredictability in close relationships. (07:13)
• In life ruts (jobs or relationships), sometimes what seems like an irrational or perverse leap (e.g., quitting a job or ending a relationship) can be necessary for growth, even if it's uncomfortable in the short term. (16:06)

7. The Problem of Rationality as a Justification

• Rationality can be misused to justify indefensible positions (e.g., oppression), but this is a distortion, not a flaw of rationality itself. (19:56)
• The test of true rationality comes through critical engagement—a community that challenges your reasoning (science, public debate).

8. Is There a Universal Rationality?

• Bloom maintains there are universal principles—logic, probability, scientific method—that guide rational thought. (20:54)
• Rationality only speaks to means, not ends; terrible ends can be pursued rationally.
• The best insurance for rationality is critical discourse and diverse challenges to our beliefs.

Paul Bloom (22:26):
"...the best way to know [you are being rational] is you're in a community of people who don't put up with your bullshit... we have to duke it out in front of a skeptical audience."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If you always do the right thing to do. You always do a rational thing to do. At some point it might occur to you, what use are you? You could be replaced by an algorithm." (03:08, Paul Bloom)
• "Sometimes, craziness can be an advantage." (03:13, Paul Bloom)
• "There's a clash between an interesting person, an interesting world, and a good person in a good world. And perversity is a little bit of a push for the interesting." (04:49, Paul Bloom)
• "Don't listen to your heart, which is listen to your head. Don't listen to your gut. Your gut will lead you astray." (13:44, Paul Bloom)
• "You have to have a sort of in between things of things that are irrational but serve some benefit." (09:27, Paul Bloom)
• "A little bit more racism and sexism, that's just the ticket. I think that's insane. Of course we want people to be rational." (11:26, Paul Bloom, satirizing the idea of 'less rationality' in politics)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:08 – What is perversity? Augustine’s pears and human autonomy
• 03:13 – Madman theory, unpredictability as strategy
• 04:49 – The balance between being interesting vs. being moral
• 07:13 – Why study perversity? Should we encourage it at all?
• 09:27 – Nature, necessity, and limits of rationality
• 11:26 – Pinker vs. McGilchrist: Rationality and culture
• 13:44 – Practical advice: Where to allow for perversity (relationships, play, ruts)
• 16:06 – Examples: Quitting jobs, leaving relationships as ‘perverse’ leaps
• 17:54 – Taleb, black swans, and the unpredictability of progress
• 19:56 – Rationality as a shield for bad actions—how to distinguish correct use
• 20:54 – Is there universal rationality? The role of critical communities
• 22:26 – Community critique as rationality’s safeguard

Summary

Paul Bloom offers a nuanced investigation into why humans sometimes act perversely and the role this plays in asserting autonomy and breaking out of ruts, while reiterating his position as a staunch defender of rationality for societal progress and moral improvement. He advocates for a small but important space for playful or liberating acts of perversity in personal life, especially as a means to avoid becoming “replaceable by an algorithm.” Overall, he advises that we should generally favor rationality but not be afraid, on occasion, to shake things up in small, creative, or unpredictable ways—especially where it brings joy or new possibilities. Critical communities and debate are essential to distinguishing genuine rationality from self-serving rationalization.