← Pillow Talks
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- [00:00]
A
Let's chat about mushy broccoli. The mushy broccoli problem.
- [00:05]
B
Let's talk vegetables. You are not eating enough vegetables.
- [00:08]
A
I mean, that's probably true.
- [00:10]
B
Yeah, true. That's not quite what this podcast is about. That would be funny if we just made a hard pivot. Yeah.
- [00:16]
A
Into, like, nutrition.
- [00:18]
B
Yeah. We actually have a broccoli sponsor. We want to tell you about the Broccoli Lobby. The broccoli lobby is on board with Pillow Talks. We're pushing cruciferous veg.
- [00:34]
A
Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.
- [00:42]
B
Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.
- [00:50]
A
Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So we had the idea recently that it'd be fun to create a best of episode. I think podcasts are always tricky because for new people who are coming in, you're kind of like, I don't really know where to start.
- [01:20]
B
Yeah, where the heck do we start?
- [01:22]
A
Yeah. Do I go all the way back to the beginning? This is our 233rd episode, so it's.
- [01:27]
B
A long way to go back. That's intimidating.
- [01:29]
A
A lot of episodes.
- [01:30]
B
I would be intimidated by that. I'm not sure I would want to go all the way back to the beginning. Honestly. That's like. That would be like years of back catalog to listen to. But we always hear from people that do. I'm impressed by you.
- [01:43]
A
No, we recently got a DM from somebody who was like, I spent the last two months listening to every episode, and now I'm fully caught up.
- [01:50]
B
That's awesome.
- [01:51]
A
That's a lot of us in your ear.
- [01:54]
B
You're really knowledgeable now. You're like this person who's done that. They're dangerous. They're dangerous in bed. In a good way.
- [02:00]
A
Dangerous.
- [02:01]
B
Yeah, dangerous. They know everything. They know everything. Everything that we know.
- [02:05]
A
Not everything.
- [02:06]
B
Oh, we.
- [02:08]
A
We don't put everything.
- [02:08]
B
We might have a couple. A couple tips and tricks that don't make it into the podcast.
- [02:13]
A
Okay. So we wanted to make this, like, best of episode that would be good as a start here for people, but also as a refresher for regular listeners, too. Like, you might not Listen to every episode every week, or you listen to one, you know, years ago, and there was this tip that you really liked at the time and then forgot to actually take any action on it, or.
- [02:32]
B
I mean, probably you don't even know what the best of us is. Let us tell you what all the best things are.
- [02:38]
A
So what we did is we turned to our Instagram community and we said, okay, we want to make this best of episode. So tell us, what is the most powerful, impactful thing that you've learned from us? And I actually wrote. I was like, you know, if a friend of yours. If you were recommending our podcast or our work to a friend of yours, what would you tell them? Like, oh, you have to start with this. Or, like, this tip totally changed my life. This tip is so valuable. So we gathered them all together. We looked for what were the absolute and most popular things, and we are putting them all together into this episode.
- [03:15]
B
You know what? I also want to show up my very best today in this best of episode. And right before we started, I was like, oh, you know what? I forgot to take my Invisalign out and my rubber band. And I was like, I don't think it really impacts my speech.
- [03:27]
A
I was about to tell you. It does.
- [03:29]
B
It does. Yeah. We're.
- [03:32]
A
Do you need to take a quick break for you to take it out?
- [03:33]
B
We're gonna take it out.
- [03:34]
A
Okay.
- [03:34]
B
Yeah. And I'm back.
- [03:36]
A
Jesus. Unencumbered magic.
- [03:38]
B
Unencumbered in my mouth.
- [03:39]
A
You sound way better.
- [03:40]
B
Thanks, babe. Thanks, babe. I feel better.
- [03:42]
A
You're almost done with your Invisalign journey.
- [03:44]
B
I am so close. You're so close. And then I truly will be the best version of myself. Wow.
- [03:50]
A
It's all downhill from here.
- [03:52]
B
No, I mean, I could keep getting better. The best version of myself I've ever been up till now. Okay. Okay. You know, you got to always leave room for improvement or new developments, new technology, new whatever news and.
- [04:04]
A
Or technology. That's right. All right, so these are not in any particular order either. We just picked the most popular ones. Okay, so first we have to talk about the fuck first rule.
- [04:17]
B
This isn't even ours, actually.
- [04:19]
A
I know. It does feel, like, a little bit embarrassing to put something that's not ours into our best of episode, but we've.
- [04:27]
B
We've made it ours in a way.
- [04:28]
A
And we've made it ours in a way, so I always like to give credit where credit is due. The original place where we heard about the fuck first rule was from Dan Savage and the Whole idea behind that. The way that he shared it is have sex before you go out on a date night, go out to dinner, go to a party. Because we all have to be real with ourselves. We get full. We get bloated. If you're drinking, sometimes you get a little too drunk, and then you come home and it's just like. It's not the greatest time for intimacy. You want to put on your PJs and watch Netflix instead, Right?
- [05:03]
B
Yeah. Despite the fact that most of us have this idea in our head. Oh, yeah. The time for sex is after date night. The time for sex is when we get home from the party and it's like, yeah, maybe that's true when you're 18 years old and you're kind of operating at full energy, you know, like 120%, I'm so psyched on life kind of thing. But, like, for most of us, once we get a little bit older, you know, start, like, working jobs and living real life, all of a sudden it's like, oh, man, I'm up past my bedtime and I'm tired. Right. So it's like, we gotta think differently than we used to. And what used to work in the past doesn't always work anymore in the future. And maybe even the stuff that we did in the past, like, it might have been suboptimal. Like if you. If you were in a relationship and sex was important to you, like, yeah. Why wouldn't you prioritize that over doing something that you. Where you know it's going to be. You're gonna be tired. You're gonna have other factors like food and drink working against you.
- [06:04]
A
Yeah. So I loved the original rule when I heard it. It was just that perfect little piece of wisdom of, you know, oh, my God. Yeah, we've all been there. We all know, you know, we have these great intentions before date night starts. And then you come back and you're like, I just don't want to.
- [06:18]
B
I mean, actually just think back. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I did what I just wanna say, like, think back to early in our relationship. I feel like we had so many. Not so many, but we had a couple of our first, like, tiffs, especially, like, when a little alcohol was involved. Back in that day, there were. There were a number of arguments that I can remember back in that shithole of a apartment I used to live in in San Francisco that revolved around sex and one or both of our readiness or lack thereof for it. When it was like 2am in the morning.
- [06:54]
A
Yeah.
- [06:55]
B
And it was like those situations where you wake up the next day and you both look at each other and you're like, oh, my God, what the were we arguing about?
- [07:02]
A
That was like, so embarrassing.
- [07:03]
B
It's so embarrassing because it was like, yeah, neither of us, like, neither of us were in any shape to be doing that or wanting to do that. And yet somehow we got into an argument about it because one person thought they wanted it more than the other. The other person was trying to say they're tired. And like, yeah, of course you're tired, you're drunk and it's 2:00am Yeah.
- [07:22]
A
I mean, we've also. If you really want to get into it, let's get into it. We had one pretty bad fight where we tried to when we were not in a place to be and it did not go well.
- [07:37]
B
But yeah, let's say there were a lot of factors involved and I had zero business. I had zero business getting sexy with you because I fell asleep in the middle of it.
- [07:50]
A
In the middle of it. That was not fun.
- [07:52]
B
Yeah. You know, I'm sober now. I can look back on those times and laugh. But I think that that happens for a lot of people. And yeah, I mean, like, I, Yeah, I'm not telling you like how you should live your life in terms of what you eat or drink or whatever, but in terms of how you have sex. Absolutely prioritize it first.
- [08:12]
A
Okay. So, yeah, going back to the original rule, it was just that perfect little. Here's something so small and simple you can do. Have it before. Before you go out on date night. So we loved that. And the more we thought about it, we were like, you know, this shouldn't just apply to date night. This should be really like a life motto. A way that we live our lives is fucking first. Like putting sex first. Because I think so often what happens with sex in long term relationships is we leave it until the very end of the evening. And similar to, most of us have this kind of script in our heads of, oh, date night is like going out to dinner and then you come home and you get sexy. A lot of us have this script in our heads that sex is this thing that we do at the very end of the night. But again, we have to be realistic with ourselves. By the time you are crawling into bed at the end of the night, you are exhausted.
- [09:06]
B
Yep.
- [09:07]
A
You've had a long day. Your partner's had a long day. You wanna go to sleep, you're thinking about how much sleep you can get before you have to wake up to your alarm the next. It's just a very tough time to get excited for sex. And so most couples don't wind up having sex in those moments. And then they feel really guilty and bad, like, oh, my God, we're never having sex. We're in this dry spell. But then they wake up the next day and repeat the whole pattern all over again.
- [09:33]
B
Or one person maybe does try to initiate, or maybe does it in a kind of roundabout way, and the other partner says no. And this just furthers another potential dynamic, which is that one partner is always trying to initiate and the other partner is always trying to say no. Or the other partner's like, oh, like, how come you can't read the room? And the other partner's like, well, I'm not. Like, I don't. I'm not supposed to be a mic. I'm not a mind reader, right? Like, so this. These are such common dynamics that get so exacerbated by waiting until the very end. I'm not gonna say that if you start, you know, if you start fucking first, all of a sudden, that dynamic is gonna go away because that, you know, that's a really deep dynamic that, like, one person always wants it, the other person never wants it, or one person, you know, can't read the room or whatever. But this will definitely improve that situation.
- [10:22]
A
So the way that we adapted fuck first is to try to prioritize sex as early in the evening or even in the day as you possibly can. Now, obviously, everybody's schedules are different, so we're not saying, like, you have to do it at this specific time, but the idea is, let's prioritize it. We all have a million things on our to do list, a million ways that we should be spending our time. But let's try to put sex to higher up on that list rather than treating it as this thing of, like, oh, well, maybe if we get the time, you know, maybe at the very end of the night, we'll get around to it. This is about, like, seeing sex as something that's valuable and worthy and, like, worth making the space in our lives for. So for some people, maybe that's, you know, like, if you don't have kids, maybe it's, hey, as soon as we get home from work, that's a great time for us to be intimate with each other. If you do have kids, maybe it's, hey, literally all that we can prioritize it over is, like, scrolling on our phones at night or zonking out in Front of Netflix. That's great, too. But, like, the idea is you're showing yourself and your partner. Sex is valuable. I want us to prioritize it over some of the other things in life.
- [11:34]
B
You know, we've actually, recently, in the last couple weeks, we've even taken this a step further and created a whole new thing. Do we even want to tell the people what we're doing? We've been experimenting with something.
- [11:47]
A
Okay, you can tell a little bit, but, like, we can't claim this as a. This is not a best of technique yet because we are still testing it.
- [11:53]
B
Well, I mean, what it is, it's us taking fuck first to the next level, to. And to another level. Like, it's. It's a new concept coming out of being birthed by fuck first.
- [12:06]
A
Sounding really weird. Okay, do a quick little recap.
- [12:09]
B
Okay. So, I mean, I think, like, I think that this, for me, what got me thinking about this is that the, you know, the, the. The. The first concept that Vanessa was just talking about, how we've extended it to, you know, beyond just date night and whatever, like, can we look at every day? Like, how could we prioritize it first? And I think that's so important, especially as, you know, we have more and more technology in our lives. If you look back, if you look back, like before tv, like, what do you think? What did couples do, right? Like, you, you work, you. You eat, you're home, you have kids, or you don't have kids, you put the kids to bed, right? And then, like, what do you. What do you have to do? Maybe you could read a book.
- [12:50]
A
Newspaper, newspaper, Churn some butter.
- [12:53]
B
Churn some butter. Or have sex, right? And so, like, there were fewer decisions to make, and now there are more and more things. Oh, do I, like, talk on the phone? Do I scroll on my phone? Do I look at Instagram? Do I watch tv? I mean, God, even for a long time with tv, it was like, yeah, you always had tv, but, like, maybe there was nothing on for two hours that you cared about on a given day, right? So, like, you weren't that engaged in it. Now it's like, oh, Netflix, Hulu, whatever. Like, we have everything at our finger. There's always something that feels important or exciting or, you know, something that could come before sex, right? In a way that really didn't used to be there in the past. And so Vanessa and I were kind of talking about. We're like, God, you know, if we're really honest with each other, sex feels way more important than Watching the next episode of whatever show we're watching on Netflix.
- [13:49]
A
Although Love is Blind, it's, like, really good this season.
- [13:54]
B
Well, we'll get there. We. We kind of. We figure out a way to make. Put a fun spin on this. But, you know, it's like, honestly, it's way more important. Like, you are more important to me. Our sex life is more important to me than any one of those things. So if it is more important, and I think most people would agree, like, yeah, it is like, that stuff. You know, my relationship, my sex life is more important to me. But for some reason, we are not actually making it as much of a priority as whatever. Because it's so easy to be like, oh, I'm just gonna scroll on my phone for five minutes. Right.
- [14:26]
A
And then half an hour has gone by. Yeah.
- [14:29]
B
Yeah. So we were like, what if we just said no screens before sex? Like, that sounds kind of crazy. It sounded insane when we were first throwing that idea around. But then it's like, well, but why not? Like, I can't think of one good legitimate reason why that shouldn't be the case. The only thing is, like, if you just physically don't want to have sex, so, you know, instead of that, it could be like, you know, no, broaden sex. Yeah.
- [15:02]
A
Sex could be intimacy.
- [15:03]
B
Something connecting, physical. Like, all the stuff that we know, we know deep down, it's way more important. And so we've been doing that for a little bit now, and it has.
- [15:15]
A
Been a very fun experiment. Maybe we'll do a whole podcast episode diving into that. But, yeah.
- [15:20]
B
Yeah, we've been having a ton of sex.
- [15:22]
A
Sure have.
- [15:23]
B
We've been having more sex probably than we've ever had before. And it's really fun, and it's kind of cute because we can be like. We kind of can both initiate it and be like, hey, want to earn our screen time? Like, it's just a fun way. Because then you're like, oh, yeah. Because after you do it, then you're like, yeah, I did earn this. I did earn this. I can. I can relax and know that we are, like, intentionally relaxing, and we're not putting. You know, we're not prioritizing that over the stuff that we know long term is going to keep our relationship alive.
- [15:53]
A
Yeah. Let us know if you want us to do an episode about that, because we've been doing a lot of brainstorming about the ways that tech gets in the way of intimacy and what are other rules, other experiments that we can do to make sure that intimacy is being prioritized above tech. So come on over to our Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander and let us know if you want to see a whole Deep Dive episode on that. So if you've been here for a while, you may have heard me talk about Blissey pillowcases before and how they've been a game changer for my frizzy hair, helping me wake up with skin that feels more refreshed. But the most recent time that we changed out our sheets, I put normal pillowcases on the bed and I thought, you know, yeah, I love these pillowcases, but whatever, it's just a week.
- [16:43]
B
Big mistake.
- [16:44]
A
Big mistake. My hair has been out of control frizzy. It's just been such a good reminder that pillowcases actually make a shockingly big difference. Blissy pillowcases are made from 100% silk, and it helps keep your hair and skin moisturized all night long. They were also voted the best gift of the year for 2024. So if you're looking for some great gifts to give to your loved ones, I highly recommend checking them out. And because you're a listener, Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free, plus an additional 30% off when you shop@bliss.com PillowPod that's B L-I S S-Y.com Pillow Pod and use code Pillow Pod to get an additional 30% off. Your skin and hair will thank you. Gift season is upon us. And if you want to absolutely knock it out of the park with everyone on your list, might I suggest the Cozy Earth bubble cuddle blanket? This such a perfect gift. It can be literally for everyone on your list. It is so soft, so cozy. Especially at this time of year. We have been really enjoying cuddling up on the couch and just draping it over ourselves.
- [18:02]
B
We've been gifting it a lot. It's getting rave reviews.
- [18:06]
A
The dogs are obsessed with it too. Like, everybody loves this blanket. And that's on top of so many incredible products that Cozy Earth has the best bedding, towels, even clothing. And they're having an incredible sale. Black Friday has come early at Cozy Ear Earth. Right now. You can stack our code pillow talks on top of their site wide sale.
- [18:27]
B
Damn.
- [18:27]
A
Giving you up to 40% off savings. These deals won't last. So start your holiday shopping today. Wrap the ones you love in luxury with Cozy Earth. Okay, next, let's get into the bristle reaction. So this actually is just fully ours. Fortunately, the rest of them are all fully. They are. They are all ours. But fuck, first is just. It's just too good. And I, you know, we can both. We both don't have egos about the fact that we didn't originally come up with it.
- [19:00]
B
So, yeah, we also, yeah, we love Dan Savage. I mean, Dan Savage is one of our huge inspirations to do what we do, especially with this podcast. We've listened to countless hours of Dan.
- [19:10]
A
Savage and he's so good at coming up with rules. Like fun little rules. And great names for them too. Okay, so the Bristle Reaction is the name that I came up with for. For the reaction that you notice when your partner tries to touch you and you feel yourself bristle. Like, you feel your walls come up, you recoil to their touch. And it can feel very confusing when you're experiencing this. It's like, wait, my partner's just trying to touch me. This is the person that I love, that I'm spending my life with. Like, why am I having such a strong reaction?
- [19:43]
B
Yeah, why do I feel disgusted by them?
- [19:45]
A
Yeah, to their touch. So what the Bristle Reaction is really all about is bad initiation. So here's the dynamic that tends to come up in long term relationships. Initiating is really vulnerable. You're putting yourself out there, you're asking for something you want, you're putting yourself in the position to be turned down. And let's be real, getting turned down sucks. So most of us, over time, ironically, like, the longer we're together with our partner, the more vulnerable initiating feels. Because we've been rejected more times, we feel more sensitive. As time goes on, sex has started to feel more complicated. So as a result, a lot of us, and this is especially true of men in male female relationships, men will tend to initiate in these very roundabout ways. They're not being direct about the fact that they want to be intimate. So it'll be like they'll go in for a hug and then the hug lingers for a little bit, or they'll touch your shoulder and then their hand starts to go down your body. And a lot of us women, like, we get so tuned in to that moment, literally that second when the contact changes from truly innocent touch into I'm wanting something more. And that's when our reaction, that reaction happens, our hackles go up. It's like, ugh, I know what you're trying to do here.
- [21:10]
B
And I mean, it can even get so hyper attuned to that. Then it can extend to even just like any kind of touch can start to feel like a suspected initiation. So that even if the you Know, if we were mind readers and we could see what both people were thinking, Even if the. The other partner who is, you know, going in to touch their partner, even if they have zero intention that they are going to initiate sex because this connection has already been formed, the other person, they're not even. They're not even thinking like, oh, sex, I don't want to have sex. It's like this. This dynamic or connection has already been created, and they're just like, oh, no, no, no touch, no touch. Leave me alone.
- [21:50]
A
And what makes the bristle reaction even worse is that most of us don't really touch each other all that much outside of sex. So we start creating this connection that when we're touching each other, it's because we want sex. It's because we're pushing for something more. Like, if you really think about it, think about how much touch you and your partner have in an average day that isn't related to sex. If you're like most couples, and it's not much, it's not much at all. So, of course, that just makes the reaction even more intense. Like, you're like, I know you're not just touching me just for the sake of it. You never do that. You're only touching me because you want something from me. And it can get even worse. There are so many dynamics that can feed into it. A lot of times, if your partner's touching you in ways that you don't really like, we've found this is something most couples have never talked about. What are your favorite ways for me to touch you? So they might be touching you in ways that you don't like. And you may also be touched out. Like, if you're a primary caretaker, if you're being touched all day long, you already have that hypersensitivity to touch. So again, that partner like touching you, making you feel like they want something from you, which is like, I can't. I can't. Leave me alone. Everybody leave me alone. So there are a number of different things that can make it worse. But again, the overall idea is that when we're not more clear with our initiation, it's very easy for this pattern to develop. And I forgot to say, like, one of the main reason why we do this roundabout initiation is to try to give ourselves plausible deniability. So the classic thing that happens is, like, the guy goes in, he gives the lingering hug, she brushes him off, and he's like, what? Like, I wasn't trying anything. I wasn't trying anything. Or sometimes he Makes it into like a joke. Like, oh, he's just joking, just playing around. Just playing around. Which again, just like makes it worse. Cause you're like, yeah, we both know what's going on. But no, you're not actually acknowledging what's going on. So it's. Your bodies are having this conversation that your mouths are not actually having. So originally when we started talking about this, we talked about it in the context of our relationship. We've both experienced it, we've both been on either ends of it, and we wanted to normalize it. We both had that experience of feeling like, what's wrong? That I'm having this reaction to my partner. I feel so guilty. I feel so bad about this. And so we wanted to normalize. This is a normal thing that happens. To date, it has still been like some of our most viral content. We did so many media interviews about this, like podcast interviews. We've had like tens of millions of views on TikToks and Instagram Reels that we've created about it. So it obviously really resonated with people. So we did an entire deep Dive episode into the Bristle reaction. It's episode 212, why you flinch when youn Partner Touches yous and how to Fix it, the Bristle Reaction. But essentially the main fix that we go over in that episode is creating more touch in your relationship. Like we have to break that connection that touch leads to sex or touch is supposed to lead to more. So we do that by bringing more touch into the relationship.
- [25:05]
B
Because surprise, surprise, more non sexual touch is good for your relationship. Whether or not someone's experiencing the bristle reaction like that is one. Non sexual touch is one of the things that disappears very quickly in serious relationships once they kind of become mature relationships. I think it's such a shame because it's. That's one of the huge ways that we differentiate, you know, a very close friendship from a more than a friendship. Obviously sex is a huge differentiator. But beyond that, you know, if you go, oh, sex is the only thing that differentiates that, Then it's like, okay, great. So when you're having sex, I can tell that you are not just friends, but like outside of sex, like, where are the differentiators? Like, we gotta have more of that differentiation to show each other that this is something special.
- [25:53]
A
So more touch. More touch that doesn't lead to anything. More touch just for the sake of touch. More kissing just for the sake of kissing. More of everything. All right, next up, one of my favorite things that we've ever come up with.
- [26:08]
B
Also probably possibly one of the most controversial things that we've ever said, given how many, like, late night comedy shows made fun of this concept.
- [26:19]
A
Well, it's because they misunderstood it.
- [26:21]
B
They did. They didn't ask. They didn't ask to interview us, which was a huge loss on their part. But yeah, we got a lot of press on this one.
- [26:30]
A
Okay. It is our nightly makeout routine. So we originally started making out every single night as a reaction to the bristle reaction. We realized, like, okay, we're not in our relationship. Like, we weren't touching that much. We certainly were not kissing that much. And especially with kissing, we were really only making out, like directly in the lead up to sex or during sex itself.
- [26:55]
B
And if we compare that to early in our relationship, it made us really.
- [26:59]
A
Sad because we used to make out like crazy at the beginning of our relationship. Like so much making out. Especially the first night that we met each other.
- [27:07]
B
Well, I mean, if you said that as I will, you're making it sound like we were just like non stop kissing. We were the very first night that we met. But like, yeah, we would, we would kiss each other, you know, in the next six months, say, like, yeah, we would kiss each other a lot. And it wasn't like after every kiss with tongue, we're running off to have sex.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, there was just a lot more kissing. And we realized, like, you know, yeah, we've gotten. Now we've been together for so many years and like, we're really just not. Not kissing each other the way that we used to. And we both were missing that. I think there's something, there's something so sweet about kissing. It just, it takes you back to being a teenager when you could make out for hours when it felt like kissing was just the most exciting, electrifying thing. And obviously, like, kissing is something that we just do with our partner, not with, you know, not with anybody else. So we decided, you know what, we wanna break again, break these connections. Like, we don't want to have this pattern that, that we only make out during sex or that when we start making out, one of us is thinking the other is trying to push it for it to go to more. And so we decided, let's start a new routine where we make out. And we're specifically at the beginning of it, we decided we are not going to allow ourselves to have sex after the makeout session. Because that's not the point. It's not to get ourselves turned on and then go have Sex just to enjoy kissing. Yeah, to just kiss. To bring back kissing just for the sake of kissing. So for us, it felt easiest to do this at night. And what we started doing is just like, okay, every night we are gonna have a quick little makeout session. So the rule that we came up with was just that tongues had to touch. That was all. And so we usually would say. The way that we would describe it, it's like, yeah, like, maybe 30 seconds on an average night. Some nights, if we're really tired, you're just not. It could even be 10 seconds. Some nights it'd be a couple minutes, but, like, I'd say on average, it was like 30 seconds. So what got picked up in the media, though? Someone along the way thought that we meant 30 minutes of making out. Yeah. So there were a couple of different places where they're like, this couple makes out for 30 minutes every night. Who has the time for that?
- [29:19]
B
Yeah. Or even if they didn't fixate on the 30 minutes thing, like, they were very fixated on, like, oh, they're telling us that we should be like. Like that I should be, you know, like, I should be kissing my male partner, like, for a long time before bed, and then he's gonna get all horny and he's gonna want sex, and, oh, God, you know. Or, you know, the joke is like, oh, you know, it's gonna happen if. If I do that to him.
- [29:42]
A
Yeah.
- [29:43]
B
But, like, my. My counter to that is, well, sounds like you guys might not be having enough sex if that's really a worry. Like, maybe you should focus on that problem. Like, how can you have. Have more sex that everyone is actually enjoying? How could you prioritize sex sooner in the day so that you're not getting into a situation right before bed where you're like, oh, my God, I don't have time for this, or I'm not ready for this. Right. So, yeah, I mean, like, yes, let's say that you had fucked first earlier in the day, then you had to make out for 30 seconds a minute, even two minutes before bed. Like, I think if you've already had sex earlier in the day, you're probably like, hell, yeah, sure, I'll make out with you. Like, I can enjoy this. Like, I'm not gonna get, like, all sexually frustrated if, you know, if we don't have sex afterwards. Right. So I think that once you kind of start combining all these things, all of a sudden it starts to make a lot more sense. It's kind of interesting how it's like one of these things. It, you know, it feels like kind of whack a mole. You're like. Like, oh, well, I want to do that, but. Oh, but then. But then my partner might be horny, and, oh, God. God forbid that my partner gets horny. And it's like, oh, well, this, you know, trying to solve this problem just creates another problem. But, you know. Yeah, it kind of is whack a mole at first, until you start putting all the pieces together, and then they all start working together.
- [31:05]
A
Yeah. So it's. Yeah. It very quickly became one of our favorite routines with each other, our favorite little rituals. It just felt like this really special thing that we do with each other. And it was just fun to have making out just for the sake of making out. And it also spread throughout the day, too. Now we just make out a whole lot more at other points of the day, too. And it's this great way to infuse more connection all throughout the day. And it just kept this thread of sexual energy going between the two of us, too. So it didn't feel like we are getting into bed at the end of the night feeling like, oh, my God, we're so disconnected from each other. But also we're not getting into bed at the end of the night feeling that. Cause remember, we're prioritizing sex earlier in the day, but yeah, it's become so fun, so special. We really, really like it. And it's just such an easy thing to do to bring more intimacy and connection into our relationship. So we also have an entire episode about this dynamic. It's episode 132, why we started making out every night. So we go over a lot more detail of, like, how we got this set up. Exactly what we do. We A lot of the objections that people have to it, because boy, oh, boy, have you guys had some objections to it. But we have had so many people say, even people who were hesitant at first, they were like, I thought this was crazy. I thought it was really annoying that you guys did this, but, like, then I tried it, and actually, we really like it now, too. So definitely highly recommend checking that episode out and coming up with your own little makeout routine, because it's fun to make out. All right, next up, let's talk about the two different kinds of desire.
- [32:50]
B
So important.
- [32:51]
A
So important. And most people have no clue that this exists. And we've gotten so much feedback from our community saying this one piece of information was life changing, like, completely changed the game and how I think about our sex Life, how I think about my libido, it's really, really crucial. So let's break it down. There are two different ways that we get turned on and ready for sex. So in our heads, that's mental desire. The idea of sex sounds good. And in our bodies, physical arousal. Our bodies are getting ready for sex. So getting wet, getting an erection, nipples getting hard, heart rate increasing, all that kind of stuff. So the two different sex drive types are based on where you feel desire first. So one type of desire is called spontaneous desire. That's when you feel mental desire first, then the physical arousal follows. And if you think about every sex scene that you've seen on TV and the movies, that is always spontaneous desire. It's like you're just going about, you know, the character is just going about their life. All of a sudden the idea of sex sounds good to them. They go find their partner. It's game on from there. So most people think this is how sex drive is supposed to work. I'm just out of the blue, randomly supposed to feel the desire for sex. But there's a second type of desire that most people don't even realize exists, and that is responsive. And it's the exact opposite of spontaneous desire. So you feel physical arousal first, then the mental desire second. So the classic way of knowing that you probably have responsive desire is if you've ever caught yourself in the middle of sex or even at the end, end of sex, thinking, this is fun, why do I never seem to want this? That is responsive desire. So research shows that men tend to have primarily spontaneous desire and women tend to have responsive desires. Like 85% of women have responsive desire. About 75% of men have spontaneous desire. Of course, there are always exceptions to that, but there are so many women who, because we don't talk about responsive desire, because most people don't even realize it exists. There's so many women who think of themselves as being low desire or even no desire, because they're never getting that mental desire out of nowhere. That is just not true though. You don't have low desire or no desire. You just have a different kind of desire. And you have to understand how your desire works and what work with that type of desire instead of against it. So one of the classic ways that this comes up is like with initiation. So most of us initiate, like the vibe around initiation is like, do you want to have sex? And if you ask somebody with responsive desire, do you want to have sex?
- [35:50]
B
Well, because first of all, typically someone with spontaneous desire spontaneously has the idea, oh, sex would be nice. I have an idea. I'll initiate with my partner. I'll say, hey, hey. They won't say this part in their head. They're saying, I'm horny right now. I'm feeling it right now. Hey, do you want to have sex right now?
- [36:08]
A
Yeah. So if you ask somebody with responsive desire, do you want to have sex right now? They're always going to say no, because.
- [36:14]
B
Right now they weren't thinking about it.
- [36:15]
A
Yeah, they weren't thinking about it. They have to feel that physical arousal first before they start thinking that the idea of sex sounds good. So approaching your partner in that way, it's always going to lead to a no. And the person with responsive desire is going to wind up feeling, God, why am I always a no? I never seem to want it. So what we need to recognize is for somebody with responsive desire, they have to have physical stimulation first. Their body has to have something to respond to. Then they're going to start feeling interested in sex. So we break this down in a lot more detail in a podcast, episode 215, mismatched sex drive Types, the number one reason couples struggle with desire. We go into way more detail about the two different types and specifically what to do if you have, like, one partner of each type in a relationship, which is almost certainly the case.
- [37:10]
B
Yeah.
- [37:11]
A
You are almost certainly going to have different sex drive type than your partner does.
- [37:15]
B
Yeah. So, interestingly, yeah, we thought that we had different sex drive types until very recently. I'll tell you why in a minute because the next thing that we're going to talk about starts to kind of clarify that a bit. But one thing I'd also wanted to say about the desire types is that you kind of mentioned it in passing that this is. It's like a primary desire type. It's not that you can only ever have spontaneous desire or you can only ever have responsive desire. And I think that, you know, it's great you learn about this and you're like, oh, my God, I'm starting to understand this so much better. But then I think kind of similar to love languages, when we don't really go very deep on it, we think, oh, well, this is, you know, oh, I'm an acts of service person. Acts of service is the only way that I can feel love. And I think that the same thing can happen with the sex drive types. We can kind of get really locked in. And so, like, you'll hear from someone who's a spontaneous type and be like, oh, well, how could we possibly plan to have sex in the future? Because I, like, I might not be turned on right then it can feel like, oh, well, the only way that I can be sexually satisfied or even turned on is if the idea comes to me spontaneously. And so I think, you know, the key for spontaneously types is you need to put your, you need to start creating experiences for yourself where you can see that you can act responsively too. Okay. Yeah. When I kind of quiet that noise in my head, the fear that, oh my God, the only way I can get horny is like if I, is if, like if I'm already feeling it and realize, oh yeah, no, like my, our bodies are responsive. Like that's how, that's how our bodies are. Like, we're built to be both of these things. And you know, so it's like, okay, can I relax and allow myself to, to maybe receive some touch and see if I get turned on? And then similarly for responsive types, I think, you know, what often happens is we get so down on ourselves of, oh my God, something's wrong with me. I'm never horny. I never think about sex. I must just not be that into it. And you're, you know, with that kind of shame and guilt, you're literally shutting down your ability to be thinking about sex spontaneously. You already have the story that that's just not you. So I think the key for, for, for responsive types is really starting to trust. Oh yeah, once I, once we get started, my desire fires up. I am a sexual person. I do think about sex. And then once you kind of can let go of a lot of that shame and that guilt and that story that you already have for yourself, you might find yourself starting to think spontaneously about sex at times. So it is, what is your, what is your primary type? I do think it's important to realize though that you can and you should be able to feel both of those. The key is identifying where are you? That's a starting point. And then be like, okay, how might I be able to teach myself how to, you know, incorporate some of the other type 2?
- [40:06]
A
Yeah. So definitely check out that episode. If you want to learn more about the sex drive types. It's, it's a really like game changing piece of information. So next, what we want to talk about is a. Another way that we like built upon that the two sex drive types, we added another layer to it which is something that we call the emotional physical conundrum.
- [40:28]
B
And this actually came out of an ongoing argument that we had.
- [40:31]
A
Yes. So there are Two types of people in the world. Just like there are two different sex drive types. So there are people who want to feel emotionally connected before they have sex, and there are people who want to have sex as a way to feel emotionally connected.
- [40:50]
B
It.
- [40:50]
A
And just like with the sex drive types, typically in relationships, there's one of each type so that we all.
- [40:56]
B
We attract opposites. Yeah.
- [40:58]
A
And the classic argument between couples that you'll hear is, well, we're so disconnected right now. Why would I want to have sex with you? And then the other partner is saying, yeah, we're disconnected. That's why we need to have sex. So it often leads to feeling like couples are at an impasse. And we've been through this in our own relationship too.
- [41:18]
B
Too.
- [41:19]
A
So typically, the gender dynamic that we notice is that men want to have sex as a way to create physical intimacy. Women want to feel. Or, sorry, men want to have sex as a way to create emotional intimacy. Women want to feel emotional intimacy before getting physical.
- [41:33]
B
Yeah. So similar to the desire types, there is a gender stereotypical breakdown. And so as a result, it would be fair to think that, yeah, you. If someone is responsive, they're probably. I want to feel emotionally connected in order to have sex. And if someone is spontaneous, it would be fair to think, oh, yeah, well, they probably want to have sex in order to feel connected. And so that is. That is true in the, like in the statistics, like, who's more likely to be what. But that doesn't. They are not one for one. It can absolutely. You can absolutely be a spontaneous sex drive type and want emotional connection in order to order to be open to sex. In fact, that is me. I mean, you can. You can be.
- [42:19]
A
Because you kind of skipped. You skipped over, like. So we are actually the reverse of the gender typical gender dynamic. I'm somebody who wants to. Who wants to have sex in order to open up or unlock emotional intimacy. And Xander wants to feel emotional intimacy before having sex.
- [42:35]
B
Yeah. And so once we really figured out this dynamic in our relationship, I feel like this really unlocked things for us because this was kind of like the major impasse that we would find ourselves in. If we were in kind of a season of disconnection, or one of us was really stressed or working hard or we had been in an argument or something, we would find ourselves, like, I would not be particularly open to sex, and Vanessa would be wanting to have sex and trying to initiate sex with me, and I would be, you know, I might even be bristling a little or like, think, you know, I would be showing all the signs that I was not open to sex. And originally, originally we started talking about desire types because I think that was, you know, you were aware of the desire types before we kind of created this, this concept of the emotional physical conundrum. And so we assumed, oh well, Xander me, I must be, I must be responsive desire because, because, you know, I would often find in these disconnected situations I wouldn't be open to sex. And so he made that faulty assumption. And then later, once we started, you know, kind of digging into it more and talking about like what our experiences were like in those situations, I was able to describe to Vanessa finally kind of in the tail end of a. We've gotten a big blow up about this. And I was like, look, like, here's the, like, I know that you really want to have sex with me right now and you feel, feel like that is going to, that's going to make us feel better. But the problem is when things feel tense like this between us, it doesn't feel emotionally safe for me to have sex. I feel like I could push myself to have sex, but then I worry I won't feel good about myself afterwards. So it doesn't, it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel safe like the way I want sex to feel in a long term relationship. It feels like I might kind of feel like, you know, how I might feel after like a hookup where I don't feel very good about myself or something. And I think that really opened your eyes to what my experience was. And we were like, oh, this is its own type.
- [44:41]
A
Yeah. So we, we actually are kind of in the middle of, we are combining these two different models and it's something that we will share more of in the future as well. But actually making like a two by two grid of this and, and having there be four different types. So how your sex drive type and your emotional versus physical type type, how you know different combinations of those two.
- [45:03]
B
Yeah. So for now, yeah, I mean if, if you can quickly identify yourself, you probably can from us just describing what these were. And I bet you, you can probably quickly identify your partner or if you want to ask them a question or two, I bet you you can figure it out pretty quickly. Start to think about. Okay. You know, think about the combination of are they responsive, spontaneous, or are they emotional first or, or physical sex first? And, and yeah, think about what that might mean because it starts to get kind of interesting when you think about it. Like you either will kind of fall into that very gender stereotype or you'll fall into one of the two other possibilities which are kind of a mixed, a mixed bag. And, and it gets really interesting. I think that that's, it's a really meaningful way for you to start to understand your partner better and figure out how you can make some adjustments in your sex life so that everyone's happy.
- [45:54]
A
Because ultimately, the thing that's really important to recognize about the emotional, physical conundrum is we all want both things. Like we want to feel emotional closeness, we want to have physical intimacy. But because we lead, we each lead with different things, it's very easy for us to feel like we're at battle with our partner.
- [46:16]
B
We want misunderstood.
- [46:17]
A
Yeah. Feel misunderstood or feel like we want different things. So it's a reminder of like, everybody wants both things. And we can work together as a team to make sure we're getting both things rather than feeling like we're, you know, opponents with each other. One of my favorite brands is doing some big time expansion right now with some very exciting new products. So this is Oneskin. At the core of all of their products is their patented OS1 peptide, the first ingredient proven to target senescent cells, which is the root cause of wrinkles, creepiness, and loss of elasticity. And these results have been validated in five different clinical studies. So for a very long time, I've been using their eye cream and their face cream. They recently came out with a body cream, which I'm just about to try out, and a lip mask, which I'm very, very excited to try out. My skin tends to be on the sensitive side and I've had really great success with their products, making my barrier feel feel so much stronger and healthier. If you want to try out one skin, they just launched their limited edition holiday sets, including the nightly rewind gift set. It's just such a great way to try out the brand. And for a limited time, Try OneSkin for 15% off using code Pillow at Oneskin Co Pillow. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Here's the sad truth. Most of us spend more time picking a Netflix show than we do being actually present in our relationship.
- [47:59]
B
And yet research actually shows that your relationship is a bigger predictor of your happiness more than your career or money. But there's never been a clear roadmap to deeper connection and lasting intimacy until now.
- [48:13]
A
That's why we built deeper our membership for couples who want to feel closer, more connected and more Passionate it. If your relationship is in a good place, you'll love the quick wins, like brand new date night ideas every month, fun conversation prompts, and even Vanessa AI, your on demand coach that you can ask anything anytime.
- [48:32]
B
And if you hit a tougher season, which is totally normal, then Deeper has you covered with our full library of courses and guides so that you can deep dive into exactly what you need most right now. Think communication, connection, desire, pleasure, or exploration. We've got you. It's like having a relationship wellness plan that actually fits into your real life.
- [48:54]
A
It's the membership that we always wished existed for ourselves. Something in between expensive therapy and trying to just figure it all out on your own. So whether you just want fresh ideas to keep things exciting or you need more structured tools to get back on track, Deeper meets you where you are. Because your relationship deserves at least as much care as your Netflix cue.
- [49:15]
B
Curious what your deeper journey might look like? Start with the intimacy quiz. Your key to love that lasts. This quick quiz helps you uncover what your relationship needs most right now. And you might be surprised because most couples get this one wrong. You'll walk away with a personalized roadmap, straight to the point, actionable and designed to help you reconnect with your partner ASAP app. So head on over to vmtherapy.com five keys. That's the number five. And then the word keys again. It's vmtherapy.com five keys. And don't worry, we'll also link it in the show notes for you.
- [49:57]
A
All right, and let's wrap this up with mushy broccoli. The mushy broccoli problem.
- [50:03]
B
Let's talk vegetables. You are not eating enough vegetables.
- [50:06]
A
I mean, that's probably true.
- [50:08]
B
Yeah, true. That's not quite what this podcast is about. That would be funny if we just made a hard pivot. Yeah.
- [50:14]
A
Into like, nutrition.
- [50:16]
B
Yeah. We. We actually have a broccoli sponsor we want to tell you about. The broccoli lobby. The broccoli lobby is on board with pillow talks. We're pushing cruciferous veg.
- [50:26]
A
Oh, my God. Okay. This is probably my favorite name for something that I've got.
- [50:32]
B
You're not good at.
- [50:33]
A
I'm not good at naming things.
- [50:36]
B
You're verging on bad at naming things. And this is. This and finishing school, I think, are your two. Your two coup de grace.
- [50:44]
A
I mean, it's not even really that good, but it does make people laugh. So it's fine. Okay.
- [50:50]
B
So it's fine. Wow. You're Underselling yourself. You just were like, I did such a good job on this. And you're like, no, it's fine.
- [50:56]
A
I mean, objectively, I don't think think it's that great, but I think it's entertaining.
- [51:01]
B
Well, I remember that there used to be another name for this before it became mushy broccoli. And mushy broccoli is way better. He used to call it the white toast problem. Problem. The problem is a lot of people like white toast.
- [51:12]
A
Not like. No, not enough. You're talking like wonder bread white toast. Not like a. I. I think there's.
- [51:19]
B
A lot of Americans that eat a lot of wonder bread. Probably like, okay, well, I'm gluten free. I can't eat wonder bread, so I am not shitting on wonder bread, guys.
- [51:29]
A
Okay, so essentially what the mushy broccoli problem came out of was that probably the number one complaint that we hear from people is, I feel like my libido is low. I never want sex.
- [51:41]
B
You feel like your libido is mushy?
- [51:43]
A
Probably. So some of this goes back into understanding the two sex drive types, right? That can play a big factor in this. But also what we learned is that as soon as somebody tells us, us, I have low sex drive, the first question that we ask them is, tell us about the sex that you do have. And more often than not, the sex that people will describe is boring. It's predictable, it's routine, it's not particularly pleasurable. And especially from women, we hear a lot of, like, you know, women in relationships with men, we hear a lot of. Of it's, you know, it feels like it's all about him. There's very little that I get out of it. You know, when he's done, we're done. I very rarely have orgasms or I'm faking orgasms. And so we started realizing there's a very important connection between our enjoyment of sex and our desire for sex. So that's where the mushy broccoli comes into play.
- [52:46]
B
I still can't see it.
- [52:48]
A
If you are not enjoying the sex that you are having, it doesn't make any sense for you to crave it. So think about a bowl of overly steamed, mushy, unseasoned broccoli. Do you ever find yourself craving broccoli that's cooked in that way? No, of course not. And do you think anything is wrong with you for not craving mushy broccoli? Obviously not. But the same thing has to be true when it comes to sex. If you are having sex that is the equivalent of some mushy broccoli, it makes perfect sense for you not to crave it. And nothing is wrong with you for not craving it. Your body is having a normal, understandable reaction to the situation. So the issue is not but libido. The issue is the enjoyment of sex. We don't need to fix your libido. You're not broken in any way. We need to make sure you are having the kind of sex that is worth craving. All right, well, those are our greatest hits. Greatest Hits, Greatest Tips, Greatest hits, Greatest Tips. Let us know what you thought of these. If you're somebody brand new, you can leave a little comment on Spotify. Let us know which one's your favorite. If you're an og, you've been here for a while and we left out one of your favorites, let us know there, too. We can always do a Greatest Hits Part 2 if we left out a whole bunch of favorites.
- [54:19]
B
Or let us know which one of these, which ones of these are you implementing or are you already successful using in your relationship?
- [54:26]
A
All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.
- [54:36]
B
Sam.