Vanessa Marin (2:51)

Yeah. I mean, I think this just runs the whole gamut. Like, on a certain level, I think we also want to normalize making mistakes and having regrets. Like, I think every relationship is going to have that to some degree. So this is not about saying if, you know, if you have any regrets, that means your marriage is totally over. So we're, you know, that's one end of the spectrum all the way up to. I think sometimes we hear situations from people where they, like, we really want them to see. Like, I think this has passed.

Zander Marin (3:24)

It's gone too far.

Vanessa Marin (3:25)

It's gone too far. And of course, it's so much easier to say that when you're on the outside looking in at somebody else's relationship. But I think a lot of us, I mean, who doesn't have a story of staying in a relationship too long? Right? Like, I definitely do. Probably every relationship.

Zander Marin (3:41)

I've not had very many, but I definitely do. Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (3:46)

So, yeah, I think this is a great episode for us to all learn from each other. I appreciate when people get really vulnerable and share stuff like this. So it's definitely a voyeuristic episode that we can see.

Zander Marin (3:58)

Ooh.

Vanessa Marin (3:59)

What's really going on in other people's marriages. But also a great opportunity for us to learn from each other's mistakes.

Zander Marin (4:05)

Yeah, for sure.

Vanessa Marin (4:06)

And look for some potential areas to avoid. But before we get into that, we have a much lighter note to share with you. This is going to be like a hard emotional 180, but we wanted to tell you that it is not too late to join the new year. New US 21 day relationship refresh. Obviously, everybody is thinking about trying to refresh things in the new year, and we think that your relationship is one of the most central components to your life happiness. There's actually your wellness. Overall, there's great research showing that the healthiness of our relationships is basically the healthiness of our lives.

Zander Marin (4:48)

Yep.

Vanessa Marin (4:48)

Isn't that the right way? Healthiness? Yeah. The status of our relationship, you know, really impacts the status of the rest of our lives. Oh, and there's Chauncey doing little.

Zander Marin (4:58)

Well, he's. He's woofing in his sleep.

Vanessa Marin (5:00)

Oh, I hope you can hear that in the background. It's so cute.

Zander Marin (5:02)

Maybe you can, maybe you can. The mics are pretty tuned into our voice, but maybe we call this.

Vanessa Marin (5:07)

We call this popping. Because it's just like this.

Zander Marin (5:09)

This is more than a pop. This is like he's legit. Little yelps.

Vanessa Marin (5:13)

He is Excited about the new year, new house relationship refresh. And he wants you to join it. Yeah. So we officially started on the 5th.

Zander Marin (5:22)

In January, in case you're listening to this way after. Maybe this will probably be taken out by then, but maybe not.

Vanessa Marin (5:28)

Who know? Okay, so what we wanted to do is make something that felt really manageable. I think one of the biggest mistakes. Speaking of.

Zander Marin (5:39)

Yeah, let's talk about mistakes, guys.

Vanessa Marin (5:41)

That most of us make with New Year's is we try to go ham.

Zander Marin (5:44)

And it's like all in.

Vanessa Marin (5:45)

This is the year. I'm gonna completely change everything about my life. No excuses.

Zander Marin (5:51)

I'm gonna be so ripped in six weeks. And like, sorry, bro, it doesn't work that way.

Vanessa Marin (5:55)

We just. Yeah, we go too hard, we put too much pressure on ourselves. Too many expectations of ourselves. And then when we inev. Fall off the horse.

Zander Marin (6:03)

Yeah, fall the horse off the wagon.

Vanessa Marin (6:05)

Off the horse. Fall off the horse.

Zander Marin (6:07)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (6:07)

Out of the saddle.

Zander Marin (6:08)

Out of the saddle.

Vanessa Marin (6:09)

Okay, whatever.

Zander Marin (6:10)

Any of those.

Vanessa Marin (6:10)

You know, when you. When it's like day four and you don't feel like going to the gym and then you don't go and you're like, oh, well, I fucked this all up now I just, you know, might as well just give up on the whole thing, right? So most of us, I mean, we've been there ourselves, most of us take that kind of approach to New Year's and we're like, let's do something different. We do not want people driving themselves nuts, going too crazy. Like, what is something that feels manageable, doable, simple and fun. And fun so that you actually want.

Zander Marin (6:38)

To do it and when you want to do it and you do little small fun things every day, research tends to show after about three weeks, you start to develop a habit of doing that. So it's no surprise that we made this a three week long challenge.

Vanessa Marin (6:57)

And like I said, very much focused on being doable. So each day it's like five minutes a day.

Zander Marin (7:03)

Yeah, like it's. It's every day. You're gonna get a conversation prompt. You guys can talk about something for a couple of minutes, right? That's easy. We can all do that.

Vanessa Marin (7:12)

Five minutes a day. So we are already on week two. So week one was reflect on the past year together. Week two is a connection refresh. And then week three is a sex refresh.

Zander Marin (7:24)

Oh, yeah, can't wait for that.

Vanessa Marin (7:26)

So one week looking backwards and then two weeks of looking forward. So even though we are in the middle of it already, you can still join now and do it on your own timeline. And honestly, it might feel better for you. Maybe the beginning of the year just felt too hectic. Maybe you saw that we were doing this challenge, but there's too much craziness going on right now. I can't even think about doing something like this. So if that was the case for you, that's totally fine. You can start today, you can start next month, you can start in March if you want to, but we definitely want you to do it. It's very, very worth. So head on over to vmtherapy.com deeper for your chance to participate in New Year, new us, the 21 day relationship refresh. Okay, so let's get into those regrets. Okay, Regret number one, not setting healthy boundaries with my partner's family.

Zander Marin (8:21)

Ooh, this is already a tricky one.

Vanessa Marin (8:23)

Okay, so we're gonna read you stories from each of these and people like really took the time to respond in depth to these and share what was really going on. So I'm read this one. I keep finding myself in the same situation in my marriage. My wife and I have ongoing issues that I believe stem from her strong allegiance to her parents and family, often prioritizing them over me as her husband. We've been married for five years and dated for four. Before that, and throughout our relationship, I felt a consistent lack of support from her when it comes to conflicts with her family. Her family has disrespected me, crossed boundaries, and even publicly embarrassed me. In the past. When I've shared my concerns with her, she's consistently dismissed, deflected, or defended their actions rather than validating my feelings. She was raised to never go against her family, and while I've grown more understanding of that over time, it still leaves me feeling undervalued and disregarded as her husband. It's a lonely place to be. As a result, I've often avoided family gatherings, including today's baptism for my sister in law's daughter. I don't feel comfortable around them, yet my wife continues to entertain and prioritize them, making me feel even more sidelined. I don't know how to handle this anymore. Bringing it up only leads to arguments where neither of us feels heard. I've even missed major events, including my own baby shower, just to avoid these situations. I want my wife to recognize and acknowledge my feelings, to find a way to coexist with her family without resentment, and to feel like I matter in my own marriage, that I don't know how to get there. When every attempt to communicate turns into another Argument. Ooh, this is such a tough one.

Zander Marin (10:10)

That's a heavy one. I mean, I think we can all agree this is a situation we do not want to find ourselves in.

Vanessa Marin (10:16)

Yeah. The point that really sticks out for me was when he said she was raised to never go against her family. Like, that's a very strong. I understand. You know, she was raised that way.

Zander Marin (10:28)

Of course, and that's the way her family operates.

Vanessa Marin (10:30)

Yeah, of course she's going to, you know, internalize that. That's a really strong perspective to take, and that's definitely a perspective that a lot of families do take. I think we've got two sides here. Some people think blood family is blood family no matter what. Like, that is your. You know, that those are your people, and you never go against them. And some people look at marriage as, when we get married, we are forming our own family, and that becomes the primary family, and your, you know, blood relatives need to be secondary to that.

Zander Marin (11:04)

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's. You just described two really different types of values around family and marriage, and I think that this is a type of situation where. Or not even this situation in general. I think this is one of those really important types of values that ideally, we want to try to understand about a potential partner before we get to marriage. Like, as we are sussing out, is this person going to be a good match for me? You know, we evaluate all kinds of values. Like, what are your values around sex? What are your values around work? What are your, like, political or social values? What are your family value? You know, what. How would you want to raise kids? How do you look at your family versus kind of like our family when you think of, you know, us, you, me and our. Our potential kids versus sort of like, broader family. And, I mean, this one is tough because I could imagine getting into this situation and being like, okay, well, okay, she says, you know, my partner is saying that, you know, you never go against family, and you might not see a problem with that until it becomes a problem for you. But, you know, now that we were talking about this, I think that this is definitely, like, if you were dating someone, it would be really important to think about, okay, if somebody says that, and I'm like, whoa, that feels really not aligned with. With me. And I could see how this go really wrong. Like, I think that would be a serious reason to. To not proceed in a relationship where it's like, yeah, that's. I don't. I don't know how I could change your mind about that. And this could go horribly wrong the moment that, you know, there's some conflict or something in the family. Like, yeah, like, at this point for this guy, like, this is not going to get better unless he makes an ultimatum and says, hey, it's your family or me. And he has to be willing to enforce that ultimatum and walk away with it, because I doubt that his partner is going to be like, oh, okay, yeah, sure, now I'll change.

Vanessa Marin (13:05)

Yeah. This definitely is something important to evaluate at the beginning of a relationship. And unfortunately, I don't think many people think that much about it until they're well into the relationship.

Zander Marin (13:17)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (13:17)

But, yeah, when you marry somebody, you marry their family, too. And this is. It's gonna be like a lifelong dynamic that comes up between them. So this one's so hard. I mean, I think that, you know, I'm, of course, always gonna recommend couples therapy in these kinds of situations, but I think, to be realistic, the best that you can hope for is just more understanding of each other's perspectives. But I don't see this couple being able to compromise around it. I don't think she's gonna change, and I don't think he's gonna change his desire to be more supported. So they might be able to develop a little more understanding of each other of like, hey. And it kind of sounds like they already do. Like he says, I understand more that, you know, she was raised to never go against her family. Like, I get it. And yet I'm still feeling this consistent lack of support. And also, what makes me super nervous about this story, too, is that the intensity of it is high. This is not a situation of like, well, I want to do Christmas at my parents house, but she wants to do Christmas at her parents house. This is. Her family is belittling me, embarrassing me, disrespecting me, crossing boundaries. Like, this is pretty intense.

Zander Marin (14:45)

Yeah. I mean, I. The question that keeps coming up for me is like, and we can't solve this problem for this person, to be clear. But I mean, the question comes up to me if I'm putting myself in this guy's shoes. I think. I mean, ultimately what I would keep coming back to is why. Why does my. Why does the person I married, like, why do they want to be with someone that their family doesn't respect, that their family doesn't? Like, yeah, like. Like, why are they even willing? Like, like, what is. And. And then, of course, why am I willing to put up with that? And I mean, I'm guessing that both of you are willing to Put up with that probably because of your own hurt or your own trauma or whatever. And so you're willing to stick it out. But it's like, yeah, you guys are both dealing with a tough thing. Like, imagine how hard it is for your partner to be like, man, my parents just think my. My husband is an idiot, and yet I'm still. I'm cool with that. And then on the other side, it's like, man, my partner's parents, family think I'm an idiot. I can't even be around them. Why am I dealing with that?

Vanessa Marin (15:49)

It's a tough one, man. So much empathy to the couple in this situation. All right, let's move on to regret number two.

Zander Marin (15:58)

All right, I let rejection, real or imagined, shut me down sexually. Okay, so this is a female partner writing in. I've been with my partner, male partner, for four years. No kids. We haven't had sex for two of those years. I love him so much, but it feels so terrible to not be desired after constant rejection. I just don't have it in me to try anymore. My last effort was this most recent Valentine's Day. I cooked dinner in lingerie, and the only response I got was, you don't have to do all that. I've let myself go over the past year. I used to have a consistent gym routine. Eat clean, get dolled up regularly, and I just quit trying. I've gained 15 to 20 pounds. I can't fit in my clothes anymore. I think so much of it is stemming from feeling so shut down from the rejection from who is supposed to be the love of my life is getting to the point where I just don't see myself as a sexual person anymore.

Vanessa Marin (16:50)

These are just, like, all gonna break my heart.

Zander Marin (16:52)

They're tearjerkers. Tearjerkers. Heartbreakers.

Vanessa Marin (16:55)

Okay, so this is one of the trickiest things to navigate in relationships, like the inevitable rejection. And obviously, this is an extreme example. They haven't had sex for two years.

Zander Marin (17:09)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (17:10)

So, you know, this is getting into some really tough territory. But we also hear a ton of stories from people saying that are, like, much smaller in scale. People saying, you know, my partner rejected me, and I got so embarrassed. Now I'm never gonna initiate again. Or, you know, maybe it's been a couple weeks or a few months where they feel like I was doing the majority of the initiating, and I kept hearing a majority of no' and that made me start to shut down. So this is another one that, you know, there can be a wide gamut of, you know, specific situations that it happens with them. But this one is. Yeah, this one's a really heartbreaking one. But in general, our biggest point that we like to make about rejection is that rejection is always going to be a part of any relationship. It is impossible for there not to be. Like, you're two different people. You have two different sex drives, two different, you know, levels of interest. You're just two. Two different people. And so there are, of course, going to be times when you turn each other down. And one of the hardest skills that we all have to learn is not taking that rejection personally and especially not to the point where we shut ourselves down. You have to separate your own desirability, lovability, attractiveness, sexuality from your partner's response to it. We cannot let our part, the way our partner responds to our initiations, shut down who we are as a sexual.

Zander Marin (18:43)

Being or even in this case, like, beyond just sexuality. It's like we can't allow the, you know what our partner, when our partner says yes or no to sex, to dictate when what we do to show up for ourselves. Like. Like for our own health, for our own wellness, for our own fitness. Like, you know, it can't be like, oh, well, I can't. I just can't go out of the house anymore because of this. I can't do anything nice for myself. Like, we have to be able to maintain some sense of self. But I think that it's easier said than done. What you just said of, hey, we have to be able to separate these things. We have to be able to take.

Vanessa Marin (19:19)

I try to be really clear in saying, like, it's extremely hard to do. Like, I, you know, times that you've turned me down, I've taken it super personally. I've shut down. Like, I get it. It's really painful. It's hard to do, and it's still something that is worth doing.

Zander Marin (19:35)

Yeah, so. So what I'm saying is, you know, because that is so hard to do. I think that the. The key is that if we are finding ourselves in a situation where it does feel like we are getting continuously rejected over and over and over, and you're starting to get to the point where you are having questions. Hey, does my partner actually want sex? Do they actually want me? I'm starting to worry about how I might start reacting to that or the stories I might be telling in my head. That is the time where we need to have a real, honest, vulnerable conversation with our partner or get into couples therapy, have that conversation there. I think the problem is so many couples wait or turn it into a test. Oh, okay, well, I'm just gonna stop trying and see what, see what they say it's on them now, right, but in, and, but that's when the, the whole story in your head just runs rampant, runs wild, right? Because it's like, oh, well, now I'm testing them. Oh, they haven't done anything in a month, two months, three months, six months, like a year later. I haven't, I haven't been to the gym at all. And, and blaming that on my partner somehow not, you know, it has nothing to do with me, but like, it's like, like, yeah, before you get to that point, we gotta have the conversation because that's again, it also gets down to a values thing, kind of like the last one where it's like, hey, we need to, we, we need the brass tacks here on like, does my partner value sex with me? Are we actually maybe on. Are we having similar experiences? Are we on totally different pages? If it's like, if it's like, oh my God, we've somehow just been missing each other, we actually do both want this, but somehow we've, you know, maybe we're on different pages with initiation or frequency or what, whatever. We got to understand that. Or we got to understand which most, most of us would rather bury our heads in the sand, but we've got to understand. Hey, is it just that, like, you know what, at the beginning of a relationship, I, I wanted to show you that I was really sexual, but I just really am not at all. Like, we gotta know that, get that out into the light so that we can make rational decisions about whether that's the right relationship for you.

Vanessa Marin (21:43)

But yeah, going back to the idea of like not taking it personally, I think what something that makes initiation so challenging is that from the initiator's perspective, if you get turned down, your brain is just a one way path into like, I'm not sexy, I'm not attractive, my partner's not interested in me. But when you're the one being initiated to upon, someone is initiating with you, someone's initiating with you. What's usually going through your head is stuff like personal to you. I've had a terrible day, I'm feeling bad about myself. I need a different kind of initiation. It's about you.

Zander Marin (22:20)

It's not like, oh, my stupid partner thinks I'm so attractive. How annoying that is.

Vanessa Marin (22:26)

Yeah, yeah. So that's one of the things that can make initiation feel so challenging. So we have plenty of other Podcast episodes on initiation, if this is something coming up for you. But yeah, I think the main point with this one is recognizing it is okay to feel frustrated, confused, scared if your partner is turning you down. And it definitely warrants the two of you, like having a deeper, more vulnerable conversation. And at the same time, don't let that shut down this essential part of who you are as a human being. Recognize that even if your sex life is not in the place that you want it to be, that you are still desirable, lovable, worthy, all the things. Story time. Last year for Christmas, I bought Xander this sex pillow.

Zander Marin (23:20)

Best Christmas present ever.

Vanessa Marin (23:22)

We ended up becoming absolutely obsessed with it. And through a series of really funny little coincidences, we actually ended up becoming friends with the couple who owns this company. And we became so obsessed with this pillow that we actually joined as advisors to the company and we are sharing it on our Instagram. It is literally the first time we have ever promoted a product that's not ours on Instagram. We are that obsessed with this pillow. I know you look at this and you think, could a little pillow, like, really make that big of a difference?

Zander Marin (23:56)

Can it really change your sex life?

Vanessa Marin (23:58)

It absolutely can. The way that it changes the angle on some of your favorite positions and makes brand new positions totally doable.

Zander Marin (24:08)

And it's like the exact right angle.

Vanessa Marin (24:10)

It's perfect and it's beautiful. You can leave it out on your bed. Nobody knows what it is. Unlike some of those other pillows that we've all seen.

Zander Marin (24:18)

Let's be real.

Vanessa Marin (24:19)

Exactly.

Zander Marin (24:19)

What? Unlike all those other ones.

Vanessa Marin (24:21)

Yeah. So we absolutely love this. We think every couple should have it and we can hook you up with a sweet little discount. Head to VM therapy.compillow and use code Pillow Talks to get 10% off. That's VM therapy.compillow code Pillow Talks. Are you part of the 30% of Americans who grind their teeth at night?

Zander Marin (24:50)

I am.

Vanessa Marin (24:51)

We both are. And that's why we feel really passionate about sharing the word about Remy. Remy makes custom night guards that are clinically tested and FDA cleared to prevent teeth grinding, reduce jaw tension and facial muscle strain, and improve sleep quality. But night guards from remy cost you 80% less and are so much more convenient than having to go into the dentist's office. So here's how it works. Get to. It's super simple. You get your impression kit delivered straight to your door. They have very simple step by step instructions. You send it back to them. They craft and ship you your custom fit night guard and you can start protecting Your teeth right away. I know teeth grinding maybe doesn't sound like the most serious thing, but it actually can have really bad impacts. Anders dealt with a lot of them.

Zander Marin (25:38)

Oh, yeah. No, actually, as we record this tomorrow, I am getting a gum grafting procedure at a periodontist, which is a direct result of me not listening to the dentists. When I was in my 20s, I did not believe that I was grinding my teeth until the. The gum recession was really apparent. And then I started and. But, you know, you can't get that back. I'm literally getting a procedure tomorrow to fix the damage that I did by not listening to Dennis. So all the more reason to get on this as soon as you can.

Vanessa Marin (26:08)

Start the new year. Right? And use code pillow to get 50 off your purchase of a new night guard. That's 50 at shop r e m I.com pillow with code pillow. Thank you, Remy for sponsoring this episode. Okay, regret number three, not investing in my own individual life and needs. Tldr I feel like I've lost my identity in the marriage. There's no me, just we. I feel compelled to help my wife even when not necessary. And I go to great lengths to hide my true feelings and interests around those close to me. I've been married for several years. I feel like I've lost myself in the relationship and not really sure who I am anymore. This started as soon as we were dating. We spent all of our time together. Friends went by the wayside. My identity became enmeshed with hers. We did everything together. Now I feel lost. Everything I do. I feel like I'm doing through the lens of my wife. What would my wife think of this? Would my wife approve of this? It's a really weird living life through the lens expectations of someone else. I feel like I don't have opinions on things. We have opinions. I catch myself in many conversations where someone asks what I think about something and I'll start it with we think. It's like my opinions and thoughts are non existent. Or if they are, they must align with or be approved of by my wife. My wife also needs a decent amount of help because she has a medical condition that makes mobility difficult some days. Of course I want to help her, but I feel so compelled to help that it's intuitive for me to just do things or offer to do things for her that she can do herself. On good days, for example, she'll say, oh man, I left my phone downstairs. My first thought and response is, do you need me to get it for you? Even when when she's not having any medical symptoms and I feel guilty or like I'm not doing enough, if I don't offer to do these things, any needs she expresses, I feel I have to fulfill them. I think this constant feeling of needing to help may be leading to some resentment. The biggest concern here is the loss of identity and not feeling like I can be myself. I put up walls for my thoughts, feelings and emotions when I'm with people I'm close to. Anything that might even indicate how I'm feeling is difficult for me to do around my wife or others. For example, I won't listen to music out loud, play any instruments, TV shows, be creative, et cetera. Anything that may indicate how I'm feeling or that I'm interested in something, I suppress and won't do it. Unless I'm alone.

Zander Marin (28:33)

And I'm imagining you're not alone very much.

Vanessa Marin (28:37)

God.

Zander Marin (28:39)

Yeah. I mean, bottom line, I think it is so important to maintain a sense of self. I mean, we kind of were touching on that in the last one as well. Like, we need to be able to.

Vanessa Marin (28:53)

To.

Zander Marin (28:53)

We need to be able to have a relationship with ourselves and do things that are good for us, for us, not contingent on somebody else's validation and similar, you know, and in this situation, it's like, you know, yeah, we. We need to have our own life. My partner needs to have their life, and then we need to have our life together. And. Yeah, it's so tough. I, you know, I've seen this firsthand, you know, watching people get into relationships where, you know, it does turn into just a we, everything. And it's. Yeah, it's hard and it's sad, and it's like, yeah, how do you. It's hard to talk to somebody about that.

Vanessa Marin (29:34)

I mean, again, you know, with all of these regrets we're obviously talking about, these can happen in varying intensities. And of course, the stories that we're getting from people are like the more intense stories. Right. But this is a. You know, this is a very common dynamic that comes up in most relationships, too, because.

Zander Marin (29:50)

Not to this extent. Extreme, of course.

Vanessa Marin (29:52)

Yeah. Like, you know, when you're becoming. Like when you're becoming a partnership, there is an amount of fusing that's happening. Like, we're joining our lives, and especially with marriage, you know, we're joining our lives together. We are, you know, sharing space. We might even be sharing names now. And so much of us falling in love with each other is like, finding those commonalities. Like, those are. Those are Those early months, you're like, oh, my God, me too. Oh, my God. We're like the same person. Right. So there is. Is this fusion that happens, and some element of that is healthy. Yeah. We want to be a partnership now, but of course, we have to balance that with maintaining our individuality, too. And I think most of us have the tendency to go too far into the enmesh stage, and then we have to. Course.

Zander Marin (30:39)

Correct.

Vanessa Marin (30:40)

Like, I even think about when you and I started dating.

Zander Marin (30:43)

Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Marin (30:45)

I let a lot of my friendships. Not like, it didn't ruin my friendships, but I spent a lot less time with my friends. Cause I just wanted to spend all my time with you. Right. And, like, I had a friend.

Zander Marin (30:57)

I mean, I did, too.

Vanessa Marin (30:58)

Yeah, we both did. I had a friend call me out and say, like, hey, I know you're really excited about this guy, and I am, too. I'm very happy for you, and I miss you, and I want to spend more time with you. And that was like this, you know, kind of snapped me out of. Oh, yeah. I need to make sure I'm still maintaining my own life, too. So I think most of us have that tendency to. To go a little too far and have to. Course. Correct. And then, of course, this seems like a much more extreme example where the medical issues definitely complicate it. I'm guessing that this guy is more predisposed to enmeshed relationships. Maybe then, you know, maybe they saw.

Zander Marin (31:34)

That model growing up.

Vanessa Marin (31:37)

Yeah, but this is. Yeah, this is a case of somebody who's, like, really lost themselves in the relationship.

Zander Marin (31:44)

I mean. Yeah, if you got this far, I mean, I think you got to get into some individual therapy to be able to talk about this, because it's going to be so validating for you to have a therapist that can listen to you, and I guarantee you validate you in terms of. Yeah, that. That is really tough. And. Yeah, your personal needs, desires, thoughts, hobbies, feelings, emotions, they matter. And, you know, not only do they matter, but. But it is essential that you find a way to express those in some way. Because, yeah, I mean, this person hit the nail on the head. Like, yes, they are starting to feel some resentment. And I totally understand why. Of course you would. But I think the important thing to recognize is, I mean, resent. I always say this over and over, like, resentment. If I'm feeling resentment as much as somebody might be doing something messed up up, to me, the resentment, that's a me problem. Resentment comes from when something is happening and we are not acknowledging it not talking about it, not allowing it to. You know, not. Not. Not allowing ourselves to say something or do something about something. It happens over and over and over. At first we're like, it's cool. It's cool. It's cool. And then it's like, it's kind of not cool. It's kind of not cool. Oh, it's really not cool. I'm resentful. Yeah. Yeah. With. With that sound effect.

Vanessa Marin (33:07)

With that voice.

Zander Marin (33:08)

Yeah, with. With that voice. Exactly. But, yeah, so it's like, yes, that. That is a. That is a me problem. Because the re. The reality is, by the time I get resentful, if I try to bring that up with Vanessa, for example, then it's like I'm hitting her with a 10 out of 10 problem, and she's like, whoa, wait, like, isn't this, like, a 2 out of 10? Like, what's going on? Like, you haven't said anything about this up until now. And I'm like, all, you know, jacked up about it because I've been playing this over and over in my head when in reality, you know, I could have talked to her about it when it was a 2 out of 10 rather than a 10 out of 10. That's on me. And so I think we got to take responsibility for ourselves when we were getting ourselves into situations like this. Of like, okay, yeah, I gotta find a way to get some help, some support for me, and then I gotta find a way to try to wind this back. Or you gotta find a way to get out, because all you're gonna do is hurt yourself and hurt your partner.

Vanessa Marin (34:02)

Partner.

Zander Marin (34:03)

So that's tough.

Vanessa Marin (34:05)

All right, go on to number four.

Zander Marin (34:08)

All right, number four. Letting work logistics or kids take priority over the relationship. So my husband and I have been together for 19 years, married for 12. We have two young children. I'm terrified that our marriage is over. We've had the same struggle our entire relationship. He doesn't prioritize me or our family. Work comes first, always has. But for our entire relationship, he's always told me that he does love me and care about me and value me, but the actions just don't match. We've been through some very rough times. Times. And through those times, I accepted being a secondary priority because I just assumed it was the circumstances. Eventually, I assumed his actions and his words would line up, but I think I just need to accept that his words aren't true. He's been lying to himself and to me our entire relationship. He doesn't know how to Prioritize people. It doesn't matter how long I wait or how I ask or plead or negotiate or threaten. He won't ever prioritize me or our children. Even now, as I tell him very bluntly that I'm giving up on the relationship unless he changes how he spends his time and energy. He says it will take him a year. A year after 12 years of waiting already, And I don't believe him. I think he's just stringing me along, hoping I'll let it go or stop bringing it up. The part that hurts the most is that I do believe that he loves me. But he's so disconnected from his emotions and so deeply enmeshed with his work that he will throw away his marriage without even realizing what he's doing. And then I worry if the problem is all me. Are my expectations too high? Is there something wrong with me that I can't be grateful? He's not a bad man. He's a very good man when he's around, but he's just never around and is. And he's indifferent to the emotional pain that this causes me. I'm so scared I'll hurt our children. Is his emotional neglect so bad that I can justify breaking up their family? But if I stay and continue to feel unseen, unappreciated, and unheard, that's not good for my kids either. I just want him to wake up. How do I get him to wake up? Or is it already too late?

Vanessa Marin (35:58)

Yeah, we. We heard a lot of variations of this regret. Work and kids were the two main things that came up over and over again. And with the kids dynamic, that's another really important values ones. Like there are some people who think relationship takes priority over kids, and there's a different group of people who think kids take priority over the relationship. And I think you're gonna have a really hard time having a relationship with somebody in each camp. Personally, we tend to come down in the camp of relationship has to take priority over kids because your relationship is the foundation of your family, and your kids are picking up on everything. No matter how young they are. Kids pick up on everything that is going on. And so if you and your partner are not in a good place, your child knows, whether subconsciously or consciously, they know. And they are learning things about relationships. What relationships are really like, what they should expect, what little they can hope for, you know, in their future relationship.

Zander Marin (37:09)

Yeah. What they might settle for in their relationship.

Vanessa Marin (37:11)

It's really damaging versus when a relationship is in a good place. You're able to be. I mean, I think people, you know, you have experience with that when your relationship is in a good place, you have so much more energy freed up to be a good parent parent. It's like you have that foundation, that stable base versus if things are in a bad place, you're spending so much energy on the relationship that you can't show up for your kids in the way that you want to.

Zander Marin (37:37)

I mean, even when you said, you know, relationship first then kids or kids first, then relationship, even if your gut reaction, like as you're listening to this is, oh, yeah, no, kids first, I would still say, if that's your perspective, there's still an argument for, okay, yeah, yeah, put the kids first. What do I want my kids to know about relationships? And if you, if you have that perspective, there's still the argument for, hey, it, it is going to be really hard for my kids for us to divorce to, you know, for them to have to split time between parents. And I still want my kids to have a chance of being able to see more me with a good partner in the future with, you know, a partner that does show up for them. Because that is in your power. You start getting out there, dating again is in your power to start, you know, figuring out what somebody's values are and picking a new partner that really will put family first in the way that you want it to be. And so, yeah, I mean, I. Even if you do want the kids first now it's the other question. If you feel like you, you know, is it more important to stay together for the kids regardless of what's happening in your relationship or not? Because there are definitely people that think, yeah, end of the day, divorce is bad and we have to stay together for the kids. But I do think my challenge to that is, how many times do you meet someone or if you've had this experience? Like, I, I can say I don't ever remember hearing any stories from friends like, oh, yeah, my parents seemed like everything was great. And then as soon as we moved out of the house, they got divorced. And I had no idea that there was ever a problem. You always hear people be like, yeah, we knew that your relationship was fucked for a long time. And then you. But you. But like, why did you wait so long?

Vanessa Marin (39:30)

Or you never hear somebody say, like, I knew my parents relationship was terrible, but I sure am glad that they stayed together for me until I left the house and went to college.

Zander Marin (39:39)

Yeah, I know that had such a.

Vanessa Marin (39:40)

Positive impact on me to have two parents who didn't like each other and didn't have a good relationship, like staying together. For me, yeah.

Zander Marin (39:49)

I mean, if anything, a lot of pressure. If anything, I do think that a lot of. I think this does happen where, you know, the, the only kid, the last kid, whatever, goes to college and then the parents get a divorce. And I feel like there's often anger that comes from the kids of, why did you, like, why did you wait this long? Like you guys are miserable. Like, why did you let it get to this point? You know, like, like you're, you're tearing the family apart. Because the longer that we wait, the more resentment builds up and the worse the divorce and the breakup and the split is. Which ends up being worse for the kids, whether they're under 18 or over 18. So I don't know that that's my. Clearly we have, have, you know, we don't have kids, but we have, we still have our own value about how we would see that if we were in that situation. So, yeah, you know, take, take it or leave it. But yeah, that's how, that's how I would look at this. Okay.

Vanessa Marin (40:45)

Regret number five, not growing in the relationship. My husband and I got married in our mid-20s and did everything we were supposed to do. We talked about kids, careers, where we wanted to live. And then we assumed the plan was to set 10 years later. We're totally different people. Our sex life didn't disappear, but it felt like we were repeating the same moves over and over again and it wasn't exciting anymore. Anytime one of us brought up wanting something different, it felt threatening. Almost like we were asking to change the rules or that we were saying we weren't happy in our marriage, which wasn't true. We weren't miserable, but we weren't really emotionally connected either. We finally went to therapy and it helped us realize that your relationship should grow and evolve as much as you do as individuals over time. This is such a good one. And I think so many people fall in this trap of thinking, yeah, the relationship that we have now or at the beginning of the relationship should be the relationship that we continue having. And that is just not true. Especially if you want to spend your lifetime with someone. I mean, one of my favorite quotes about relationships is like, if you do a relationship right, like a long term marriage, right. You're going to have a like six or seven different marriages in it.

Zander Marin (42:01)

We've absolutely had a couple.

Vanessa Marin (42:03)

Yeah, because you are like growing and changing so much. Like our marriage has to be able to flex and adapt and grow with us. You're not going to have the same marriage you did at the beginning of your marriage, 10, 20, 30, 40 years into it.

Zander Marin (42:19)

Yeah. I mean, this one is great because this is our first one that doesn't feel like a super, super extreme, like. Yeah, pessimistic situation. Like, I'm. I'm really glad that these people got into therapy and are taking positive steps around this because. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people get into much worse situations than this, but this is definitely one that is absolutely. Come back from a bowl. I mean, I think, like, I've been there in. In certain respects in our relationship. Yeah. I mean, there was a time where. Where I saw you making a lot of changes in terms of how you were thinking and how you were operating and how you were taking care of yourself. And I wasn't quite there yet. And it felt really threatening to me. Even though you were not threatening me of you. You gotta change to be like me or anything. But, yeah, I totally understand that feeling of, like, oh, my God, like. Like she's. She's changing and that this isn't what we agreed to. And I mean, that's just really your own resist, like your own. Your own fear. And I'm really glad that I was able to, you know, to understand what was going on and get myself through that and realize, oh, this doesn't have to be a threat. Like, this is an opportunity to get to know somebody, a new partner that is emerging and. Oh, and that gives me permission to also to change and to grow and not be like, oh, I have to. My life has to always look the way I thought it was going to look like when we got together.

Vanessa Marin (43:55)

Yeah. And this is such a big one that comes up in the bedroom, too. A lot of us, we call this the blood oath. Like, a lot of us are so hesitant to ask our partner to do something different in the bedroom because we worry it'll come off as, you're bad. I don't like what you're doing. I. I've never liked.

Zander Marin (44:16)

It's all been a lie.

Vanessa Marin (44:17)

Yeah, it's all been a lie. So it's like we get into relationships, we have sex with somebody for a few times, and we're secretly signing this blood oath of, like, I will always like the things that I said I liked. I will always want you to continue doing the things that you've done. Like, we just don't give ourselves any permission for things to change. And the reality is your body changes over your lifetime. You are going to like different things, want different things, be curious about different things. Even physical sensations. Sensations are gonna feel different at different points in your life. So we have to give ourselves permission for things to change. It does not mean that you didn't like what your partner was doing. You never liked it. It was a lie the whole time. It just means you're a human being who's growing and changing. And also, that's actually a good thing. Like, truly, imagine if sex looked exactly the same as it did when we were 22 and 23 and meeting.

Zander Marin (45:14)

I'm glad it doesn't. I'm glad that makes it sound. It was really bad. That is not what I mean. But, like, I'm glad that I. I don't want anything to do. That also sounds bad, but I also like, at this. I don't really want to have anything to do with the person that I was when I was 23. Not to say that I was a bad person, but, no, I wouldn't put it that extremely. My own insecurities and fears and all of that.

Vanessa Marin (45:37)

Like, I just think it would be boring to have the exact same sex for your entire life.

Zander Marin (45:44)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (45:44)

Nothing to ever change.

Zander Marin (45:46)

Yeah, well, I mean, I've already been that person. I've already had that time for, you know, it's time for what we have now. All right, moving on to number six, not taking sexual incompatibility seriously. We actually have two stories here. Story one. My boyfriend of 13 years took until this year to tell me that he never enjoyed sex with me. I didn't do enough. I didn't do it right. We have a good relationship otherwise. But how can I ever come back to our sex life when there's been a decade of him pretending it was fine and it wasn't? I feel an athlete, inadequate and embarrassed. This is that. That's like, the exact opposite of what we were. Of what we were just saying, where it's like. It's like we have this fear that saying we want to do something different means that we've never liked it. And then this is, like, actually that situation. So it's like, one extreme and then the other.

Vanessa Marin (46:34)

Don't do this. Do not ever. This is so cruel to do. Even if, like, first of all, this boyfriend needs to take responsibility for the fact that he never spoke up. This is his fault. It's completely his fault. It's not this person's fault whatsoever. So he needs to take ownership over the fact that he did this. But this is so cruel to do. Like, there are ways to Talk to your partner. Like to request doing something different in the bedroom without saying, yeah, I've never liked having sex with you for our entire relationship.

Zander Marin (47:08)

Yeah, I mean, this feels like one of those. Yes, this is true, but I don't know if that needs needed to be said unless he's using this to manipulate, manipulatively, get something out of that. Like that. That's my concern is that you do. You say that because it's like the thing that you're actually asking for, you don't think your partner is going to give you. And so it's like, oh, you'll actually. I've hated everything, so the only way you could ever make me happy is by doing xyz.

Vanessa Marin (47:37)

Yeah. And the other thing I want to say about this is, like, when it comes to sexual incompatibility, people really struggle to give incompatibility enough weight. Yeah, like, we need to recognize that sexual compatibility is an important part of.

Zander Marin (47:53)

A relationship, a key part of a relationship.

Vanessa Marin (47:56)

It. It is important enough to end a relationship over. If you're dating somebody and it's just not working. You're trying, you're communicating, you're making space for, you know, changes, and it's just not working. You shouldn't be with that person. Like, it is important enough to end a relationship over. And at the same time, some people take it too seriously to the point where, like, the very first time they have sex with someone, if it wasn't lights out, they're breaking up with that person. So I just see so many people struggle to find, like, what's that middle ground of not cutting it off immediately but also being willing to say, yeah, you know what, we're just not lining up in this way. And just like, I might end a relationship if we weren't lining up. Lining up from a values perspective or a lifestyle perspective, you know, I'm willing to end the relationship over this, but yeah, let's get into the second story.

Zander Marin (48:48)

All right, so number two is not being open with my husband about my sexual wants and desires. I'm extremely kinky. Love, bdsm, sexting, playing around during the day, using sex toys, etc, and I always felt like my partner would judge me negatively about it. So my husband and I went seven years having mediocre vanilla sex sex. After having our daughter in 2023, my sex drive got even higher for some reason, and I slowly started adding things here and there, but it was still so very small. I don't remember exactly what sparked the conversation where I finally told him what I like, but I remember spending almost a year working up the courage to tell him what. And what actually helped me start was buying your initiation guide. That's bringing back memories. Now, your initiation guide is why I started doing things more here and there, because I realized that I wasn't doing that and it didn't dinged that my husband isn't a mind reader, lol. So from there, my courage kind of built gradually. And one day during a lunch date, I got buzzed enough to just spill it all out. We went home and had nasty sex and haven't stopped since then. But I still feel very timid around my husband because I'm scared it'll be too much. So I guess I'm trying to navigate my sex drive and find a balance to what satisfies me and my partner. So I guess my biggest regret was waiting seven years to tell my husband how I really wanted him to fucking.

Vanessa Marin (50:03)

Well, I'm glad that our initiation guide helped you start opening things up. And yeah, this one, I think this one's really interesting too. It's so sad that we feel like we can't tell the person closest to us, the person we are the most intimate with, like, what we really want. And what I want to encourage people, especially women, to recognize is that men want to know what we like and what we want. Like, they are.

Zander Marin (50:30)

We like clarity. We like knowledge.

Vanessa Marin (50:32)

Obviously, everybody, you know, has their own boundaries and interests and whatever, but men, like, we don't give them enough credit for this. Like, they truly just want to know. And once they know, they're usually very happy to oblige.

Zander Marin (50:44)

Yeah, sometimes it takes a little while to think or to process. So give. Give a little time. I think that we often are like, okay, cool, I'll tell. I'll tell him that. And expect him to, like, immediately be like, oh, awesome. In this case, it sounds like, great. They immediately went home and had nasty sex. Hell yeah. I do want to warn you, though, that also because men are not, as you know, we're not socialized to have as much emotional intelligence that it might take a little time sometimes to process or to think about things. So if he doesn't immediately respond in the way that you want him to, just give him a little time. Let him marinate for a little bit. I promise, like, he will. He will come back to you when he's. When he's had some time to internalize that. But I think the other thing I want to call. Call it that the important thing for anyone listening who's like, oh, well, Isn't this kind of the same as the other one? Like, she's been holding this in. Isn't that on her? I think the difference is it sounds like she had a positive conversation with him. Say, hey, there's some things that I would really love to do it. I've been. I've been scared to tell you about this for a really long time, but I finally want to lay the cards on the table and I would love if we could do blah, blah, blah.

Vanessa Marin (51:56)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (51:56)

And it worked out. Versus is being like, babe, for the last seven years, I have just been hating our sex life. It's been horrible. And the only way that you can make me happy is to do this nasty thing to me. Right.

Vanessa Marin (52:11)

But you don't even have to say, I've been thinking about this for years. If you don't want to. You can just say, hey, I have something that I'm starting to feel a little bit curious about that we've never done before, but it sounds really fun to do it with you. So I definitely don't recommend waiting seven years again. This is where we need to prioritize and value the importance of sexual compatibility. But, yeah, even if you have waited longer than you know you should have, like, you can it, you can still have that conversation. And you don't have to say, I've been hating sex for all this time.

Zander Marin (52:44)

Yeah. Now, I think the other side of this is this person is still concerned that I think that she thinks she potentially has a much higher sex drive or much higher desire level than the partner and is saying, I'm still kind of holding back. Like, I'm scared that I will be too much if I like, really, really be my authentic self. I mean, so I think you've taken some right steps in the right direction. It feels like there's probably still some more. I mean, I guess what you have to ask yourself is like, yeah, what is enough? Like, are you a. Like, do you. What do you really need to be baseline satisfied sexually long term? If you have that now, now, then I guess then that's okay. But I'm concerned that what you are writing is that you want some more, that you're scared to ask for still or you want to be more and you're scared to show him. So, yeah, I think you got to ask yourself, I think we're so hesitant to ask ourselves, hey, can I be happy with the situation that I'm in now long term term? Because we're scared if the answer is no, like, oh, does that mean that I Have to walk away. But I do think that if you are like, yeah, I'm really suppressing who I am as a person. You know, it is important to be able to be who you are sexually. I mean, that, that's, after all, that's why we get into relationships. You know, like you were saying the first story. Like, you know, sexual values are important, but I mean, but yeah, it's like sex is one of the main primary reasons that we get into relationships, or in monogamous relationships at least, is to have a specific person that we have sex with on an ongoing basis. Um, so, yeah, I just, I think it's. I want to, I want to encourage you to try to keep making some progress in being able to be your authentic self and at the very least know knowing. Yeah. Will this be too much for your partner or not? Give them a chance.

Vanessa Marin (54:52)

All right. And let's wrap things up with regret. Number seven, forgetting to have fun in the relationship. I got married last year to my wife, 29 year old female. And I'm feeling really bored now. She's very reserved and mostly keeps to herself. There aren't any fun conversations, romantic gestures or excitement between us. It feels like we're living more like roommates than partners. Partners. Apart from that, there's nothing much happening. Things feel mundane and repetitive. Yeah. People really underestimate the importance of having fun together. It's so easy for life to take over, for us to just get caught up in the day to day, the logistics, the business aspect of life and marriage and forget that you should have fun with your partner. We're choosing to spend our lives with somebody.

Zander Marin (55:41)

Yeah, I wanted a best friend to get into trouble with.

Vanessa Marin (55:44)

Lifetime is a long time. If we're not having fun, it's gonna feel a whole lot longer. So that was part of the reason why we created the New Year New Us Challenge. We have so many couples tell us we don't have very much fun in our relationship anymore. But I think it can feel really embarrassing to try to figure out on your own how to have more fun.

Zander Marin (56:09)

Or be like, hey, it doesn't feel like we have fun anymore, so let's have fun. I know, let's have fun.

Vanessa Marin (56:14)

Downer of a conversation. And I think a lot of times, like a lot of stuff feels cheesy. You're like, what are we supposed to do? Like, what is fun? Like crossword puzzles or like going to, you know, it just, I don't know, it can feel very embarrassing in a lot of ways. Trying to figure out like how to have more fun as an adult. So that was part of why we wanted to design the challenge, to give you, you specific ways to have more fun with each other, to enjoy each other's company more, to keep that romantic connection alive between the two of you, not just slipping into feeling like business partners. So, again, if you want to check out that challenge, you can go over to vmtherapy.com deeper. It's not too late to join us. All right, well, I hope that this was interesting and evocative. I know we've gotten to some really tough stories, Stories, some pretty, like, extreme things that are happening. But yeah, I just appreciate the bravery and the vulnerability of these people to share their stories and to be so reflective about what's really going on in their relationships. You know, in so many of these situations, I think it's. It's not too late for us to. Course correct. All right, well, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday. Thursday.