E247: Our Recent Foreplay Discoveries (and how to explore more)

Summary

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Pillow Talks – Episode E247: Our Recent Foreplay Discoveries (and how to explore more)

Date: February 12, 2026
Hosts: Vanessa & Xander Marin

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Episode Overview

In this lively and honest episode, Vanessa (sex therapist) and Xander (the “regular dude”) dive deep into the often awkward but essential art of sexual exploration—focusing on foreplay within long-term relationships. Prompted by a listener’s question about keeping foreplay fresh and non-awkward, the Marins candidly share both their framework for ongoing bedroom discovery and practical stories from their own relationship’s recent experiments. Their aim: To make exploration both fun and less intimidating—because awkwardness, they insist, is part of the journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining “Exploration” in the Bedroom

[10:55–14:13]

• Most people think “spicing things up” requires extreme or out-of-comfort-zone activities, but exploration can (and should) be incremental.
• Small changes, revisiting things you used to do, or even modifying techniques all count as exploration.
• Vanessa encourages: “Just bring back something that you used to do but you haven’t done in a while.” (13:56)
• Trying new things together is not about outdoing each other, but about tuning into what truly feels right for the couple.

2. Why Trying New Things Feels Awkward (and Why That’s Okay!)

[00:00–02:23], [26:26–28:23]

• Awkwardness is inevitable and natural. Waiting for the “non-awkward” way to try new things is a trap.
• Xander reframes this: “Awkwardness is sexy.” (02:15, 26:26)
• Vanessa expands: “When you are being awkward with your partner, it’s because you’re being vulnerable—and that’s the whole fucking point of intimacy.” (27:14)

3. How to Introduce Exploration—Step-by-Step Tips

Outside the Bedroom First

[18:11–19:27]

• Never spring new ideas mid-sex. Instead, bring them up in casual, low-pressure moments.
• Sample scripts:
  • “I had a dream about us doing X…”
  • “I found myself thinking about X…”
  • Or even texting the idea if talking face-to-face is hard.

Remove the “Performance Pressure”

[20:30–24:30]

• The point is to try, not to be amazing or produce mind-blowing results instantly.
• Vanessa: “The benefit of exploration lies simply in the exploration itself.” (20:48)
• Reality show analogy: on dating shows, it’s not the success of the activity, but the shared novelty, that fosters connection.

Make Exploration a Recurring, Shared Ritual

[24:30–25:15], [33:25–33:49]

• Try “sexploration dates” at regular intervals (monthly, quarterly), with a shared understanding that it’s for experimentation—not perfection.
• Name it! “Sexploration night,” “curiosity night,” “pancake night”—whatever feels playful.

Normalize Awkwardness

• Xander: “I feel like I’ve associated [awkwardness] with positive things… we are able to approach sexual awkwardness in a fun way and have a good time.” (27:13)
• “First Pancake Rule”: The first go at anything new is likely to be weird or off—but that’s expected, as with the first pancake in a batch.
  • Vanessa: “We kind of just say ‘first pancake’, and it’s allowed to be weird, bad, awkward.” (30:25)
  • Try things at least three times before deciding; improvement tends to come on the third attempt.

Celebrate Small Wins (“Resizing Expectations”)

[31:36–33:25]

• Discoveries may be tiny: “Oh, that was fun,” or “I’m more excited about exploring with you,” etc.—these are worth acknowledging.

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4. Recent Foreplay Experiments in the Marin Bedroom

[34:19–51:46]

Vanessa and Xander share new techniques and frameworks they've explored together—some of which are destined for their “Ultimate Foreplay Guides.”

a) King/Queen Nights (“Special Lady Day”)

• One partner is completely pampered, the other focuses on their pleasure—all about receiving.
• Provides guilt-free space for asking for (or giving) just what feels good, without worrying about “the give and take.”
• Can be extended beyond sex to a whole date night or day (“king picks dinner, queen gets dessert, etc.”).
• Vanessa: “It's just very nice being able to focus on only receiving or only giving.” (37:12)

b) Using “The Pillow” for Oral

• A specially designed pillow (intended for intercourse) is now being used for oral, improving comfort and angle—especially for the giver on a vulva-owning partner.
• Xander: “My neck's like, let's go.” (42:07)
• Vanessa: “It makes a surprisingly big difference for oral as well.” (42:24)

c) Labia Stimulation: Not Just a Warm-up

• Using thumbs to stroke from bottom to top of the outer labia with pressure and lube—discovered this creates unexpected new sensations even during intercourse.
• Clitoral structure is far larger than most realize; indirect stimulation can be very pleasurable.
• Xander: “There are a lot of possibilities I did not know existed until a couple months ago.” (46:43)

d) Slow, Simple, Single-Finger Stimulation

• Rather than complicated “advanced” moves, tried extremely simple thumb strokes over (or beside) the clitoris with lube.
• Result: Helped Vanessa tune into physical sensations more deeply—“almost meditative.”
• Vanessa: “There's a way that when you're so simple, it helps you focus on the sensation more.” (49:01)
• Works especially well on “queen nights” where one partner gets permission to just relax and enjoy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On awkwardness:

  • Xander: “Awkwardness is sexy.” (02:15, 26:26)
  • Vanessa: “If I’m just presenting some perfect version of me... that’s not me. Awkwardness is taking our masks off.” (27:14)

• On small steps:

  • Vanessa: “Trying something new could be, oh, we moved our legs in slightly different positions in missionary, or we had sex at the foot of the bed instead of the head of the bed. It can be small things.” (33:34)

• On celebrating the awkward first try:

  • Vanessa: “We have this little rule that whenever we’re trying something new for the first time, we just say ‘first pancake.'” (30:25)

• On the “tease” of foreplay:

  • Vanessa: “A lot of women will actually say, my favorite part of foreplay is being teased… get me to the point where I’m begging for you to go further.” (43:24)
  • Xander’s mind blown: “It was so mind boggling to me… I could not wrap my head around the idea until you really described what it was like for you.” (44:16)

• On ongoing exploration:

  • Vanessa: “Exploration is not just a one-and-done thing… It should be part of your sex life for the rest of your sex life.” (33:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment Description | |---------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–02:23 | Why awkwardness is essential to explore in long-term relationships | | 10:55–14:13 | What “exploration” really means (and how to avoid overwhelm) | | 18:11–19:27 | Best ways to bring up trying new things outside of bedroom context | | 20:30–24:30 | How novelty (not success) super-charges connection | | 26:26–28:23 | Embracing and normalizing awkwardness as part of sexual vulnerability | | 30:25–31:36 | The “first pancake” rule: permission to be clumsy when trying new stuff | | 34:19–39:15 | “King/Queen Nights”: The pleasure of focus and receiving | | 41:01–42:29 | Using the “the pillow” for oral: practical improvement | | 42:38–47:49 | Outer labia stimulation: moving beyond warm-up to full-on pleasure | | 48:17–50:58 | Stripping back technique: single-finger strokes and mindful touch |

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Takeaways

• Exploration is a series of small, low-stakes experiments—not a “50 Shades” leap.
• Awkwardness, vulnerability, and even a little clumsiness are integral—they are the price of admission to genuine intimacy.
• Setting the stage, labeling the experience (first pancake/king-queen night), and tweaking expectations makes experimentation fun, not stressful.
• Practical techniques like new positions, focused pleasure sessions, and simple touch can reinvigorate foreplay quickly and meaningfully.

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Next episode: New Pillow Talks episodes drop every Thursday!

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Transcript

[Vanessa]

Everyone always asks us, how do we try new things without it feeling awkward? Or even just like, how do we have sex without it feeling awkward? And we're really big believers that awkwardness is just part of the price of admission of having a great sex life.

[Xander Marin]

Awkwardness is sexy.

[Vanessa]

You would go that far?

[Xander Marin]

I think it can be.

[Vanessa]

Say more. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. Here are your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

[Xander Marin]

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

[Vanessa]

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So today's episode was inspired by a recent DM that we got. Somebody messaged us when we were doing our Ask us anything on Instagram and they asked, how do you keep foreplay from getting boring in your relationship? Do you just, like, cycle through your own foreplay techniques? Isn't that awkward? And I think so many people have this question. Like, we've all heard the advice to keep it spider and try new things in the bedroom. But for most of us, like, we feel very awkward with the implementation. And I think so many people also think, like, that intentionality around sex can feel really awkward too. Like, yeah, are you like, planning this? Are you cycling through it? I love talking about this stuff. Like the nitty gritty of how do we actually do these things in the bedroom. So today we're gonna be talking about how to bring that element of exploration into the bedroom in non awkward way. Spoiler alert. There's going to be some.

[Xander Marin]

She put that in quotes if you're not watching on YouTube, because spoiler alert.

[Vanessa]

There is no, there is no non awkward way.

[Xander Marin]

Non awkward as possible. With awkward, maybe minimize, maybe, you know, maybe there being some, like, fun way to sexualize a little bit of awkwardness too.

[Vanessa]

And we're also going to be pulling back the curtains a little bit and talking about some recent exploration that we've been doing in our own relationship. But before we jump into today's episode, we have to give you a quick heads up because we have a very fun celebration happening this week.

[Xander Marin]

It's Double V Day.

[Vanessa]

It's Double V Day. Okay, so Valentine's Day is obviously coming up. We all know that. But what you might not know is that my birthday is the day before Valentine's Day.

[Xander Marin]

Should we call it W W day because it's two V's?

[Vanessa]

No, because it's two days. W days. No.

[Xander Marin]

Double V. Two day. W days.

[Vanessa]

No. Yeah. My. I was supp to be born on Valentine's Day. I probably would have been called Valentina had that happened, but went into some fetal distress and my mom had to have an emergency C section on the night of the 13th.

[Xander Marin]

I'm not sure. Oh, Valentina. Yeah.

[Vanessa]

No, I don't like.

[Xander Marin]

Doesn't work.

[Vanessa]

My dad said he forbid that name because everybody would have called me Val, which is true. Okay, so my birthday.

[Xander Marin]

I'm sorry. To all the Vals out there. We love you too.

[Vanessa]

I'm just not a Val. Okay, so my birthday, the day before Valentine's Day. And if you've been in our universe for about six months or so, you may remember that when Xander turned 40 in July, I just, like, psyched myself out there. I was like, oh, my God, his birthday is July, right?

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Like, keep going.

[Vanessa]

Okay. When Xander's birthday turned 40 in July, we did this really special offer on our most popular, best selling, best reviewed guides, our ultimate Foreplay Guides. And you guys went every absolutely nuts for it. Like, it was just so many people grabbed them. We got so many incredible messages. Couples having a lot of fun and so much more passion, connection, excitement, exploration.

[Xander Marin]

All the things everyone was so inspired by. My birthday and me turning 40, it was just. It was so cool. People were like, I want to get more blowjobs because it's Xander's birthday.

[Vanessa]

Okay.

[Xander Marin]

Just kidding. That's not what people were saying. They were like, damn, you guys are offering way too good of a deal. I'm gonna scoop this up.

[Vanessa]

Okay. So I am a little bit of a birthday diva. A little bit. I wanted to one up Xander. It's like we did something for his birthday. We've never done something for my birthday.

[Xander Marin]

I can't believe we've never done something.

[Vanessa]

Because we always focused on Valentine's Day.

[Xander Marin]

Why have we never focused on your birthday? It's so much better to focus on you than, like, love the love holiday.

[Vanessa]

I don't know about that. Okay, so here's what we decided to do. Same guides. Our ultimate Foreplay guides.

[Xander Marin]

Well, it's what Vanessa decided to do because she wanted to one up me.

[Vanessa]

You were on board with it? Okay, so our ultimate Foreplay guides are normally $69. Yes, that's on purpose. But they're also worth every single penny. They're a steal at 69. But for a limited time, just through February 16, you can get them for 40 bucks. 40 bucks? Tell me it is not worth 40 bucks to give your partner and to receive from your partner the best sexual experience you have ever had. And I'm also just gonna say, if you get this offer, there might also be some surprises, too. Yeah, well, I'm not gonna say. I'm just. Maybe.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, well. Cause that's the one upping part, right, Vanessa? Because on my birthday, we also offered them for $40. However, if you take it at $40, you might see a couple other things for other amazing deals that we cannot publicize because they're too good.

[Vanessa]

Yep.

[Xander Marin]

And the only way for you to know is to grab them is to.

[Vanessa]

Try for 40 bucks.

[Xander Marin]

That's it. Are we whispering now?

[Vanessa]

We're whispering.

[Xander Marin]

That's fun.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, just get it. Subliminal marketing. So the foreplay guides, like, it's my favorite of all the things that we offer because I just think they're so fun. Everybody wants to be good in bed, but we never learn how. Like, we never learn any actual technique. I mean, I read a million Cosmo magazines growing up. I got a bunch of dumb ideas, but I never learned any actual technique. Like, how am I supposed to do this thing?

[Xander Marin]

So the guides, you learned, like, shticks, basically.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. The guides teach you step by step, exactly what to do, and it covers everything from. You know, we have people who have bought them who are like, I've never given my partner a blow job, or I've just given a couple, or, you know, I've done it a few times, but I really don't feel confident in my technique all the way up to people who. Like, we've had people say, I thought I was really good at this. I've never had any complaints, tons of compliments. But, like, I learned new tricks and techniques. There are over 100 different techniques in there. So there's really, like, something for everybody.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, well, because I think so many people think, like, they figure out, oh, yeah, here's how you do. You know, they land on a technique of, here's how you do it, and that's what you always do. But the reality is, it's like Vanessa said, there are so, so, so, so, so many different techniques. And the thing is, is that each person, each partner receiving, whether that's, you know, like a blow job that a guy's receiving or oral sex that a woman is receiving, each person is going to prefer different techniques. So what you think is amazing from, like, someone that you gave blow jobs to in the past. Like, that might not be that. That might be perfectly fine to your current partner, but it might not be, like, next level amazing. And you won't know until you get to try out all these different techniques and figure out what are the right combination of things for this person. That's the real key is I think we talk about technique a lot, and we think that there's one way. There's like 20, 30, 40 different ways, and it's about finding which specific way is working for your person right now.

[Vanessa]

Your person, your. So, yeah, they're very direct. You will not see. Like, just play around. Just try it out. It's very clear. Do exactly this, then do exactly that. So we have step by step instructions. They're also tastefully illustrated. We got custom illustrations and GIFs made for them. So you can see exactly what's happening.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Cause sometimes it's hard to translate. You read something, you're like, wait, where am I supposed to put my mouth? How am I supposed to move my hands?

[Vanessa]

Yeah, everything's very tastefully illustrated. And there are even audio versions. So you can just. We know everybody's really busy, and we've been getting so much feedback from you guys that you love. Like, let me just pop in a little earbud. I'll listen, you know, while I'm driving.

[Xander Marin]

To be clear, it's audio versions of us telling you what to do is.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. Not audio versions of us.

[Xander Marin]

Just want to be clear. Just want to be clear. You know, what this is and what it isn't.

[Vanessa]

It's like this podcast. It's like a podcast version of us going through the foreplay guides. So you can listen to.

[Xander Marin]

Sorry, I just got like a bad image in my head of someone being like, I was expecting something really different.

[Vanessa]

I mean, we do. Do you get a lot of people telling us, like, when are you gonna make your only fans. Not happening. This is the closest you'll get.

[Xander Marin]

Okay, but it's not that close.

[Vanessa]

We walk you through it. It's also super sexy. Like, you could put in one earbud and your partner could put one in. Or you could listen in the car on a road trip. Like, it's very fun.

[Xander Marin]

Or each listen while you're at work or whatever, and then circle back later in the day and be like, hey, these are the ones that sounded interesting to me. Oh, those are the ones that sounded interesting to you.

[Vanessa]

Exactly. So 40 bucks, plus some little stuff that you'll see on the back end. Plus there's also gonna be. We'll tell you more in a little bit when we get to the explorations that we've been trying out. But there's also probably some other stuff too. If you wanna check those out, you can go straight to vmtherapy.com foreplay and we will also put the link directly in the show notes for you. Okay, let's get into today's episode. So let's first talk about bringing more exploration into the bedroom. And I think we should start with defining what we even mean by exploration.

[Xander Marin]

Because most people get this wrong.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, most people, you know, they hear the advice, spice things up, keep it spicy, and most people's brains go to something that feels to them very extreme or very far out of their comfort zone. Like, we feel like we have to dive into the deep end of doing something, and we take a totally different approach to exploration. So if there's something way out of your comfort zone that you're curious about trying, that's awesome. We want you to eventually get there. And we are in no way, like, whatever people want to. Whatever consenting, excited adults want to do in their own bedroom, we are good with that. But I think that it helps to think of exploration in a different way, of just trying something slightly different than usual.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, it's not going out of your comfort zone. It's not like. Like needing to kind of, like, ratchet things up, like. Because I feel like this is what happened to me early, you know, maybe with one of my first girlfriend or two where I was having regular sex, where it's like, you know, they're sort of the. The standard stereotypical things, I think, that you start to suggest of, like, trying something. Oh, like, okay, like, let's blindfold each other. Okay, let's tie each up. Let's. And then it's like each. It's like each one is kind of like, ratcheting up the intensity. And then it's like, okay, well, so what do you want to try next? And I feel like I got it in my head that, oh, to be exploratory in the bedroom means I have to pick something crazier or more intense than what she just suggested or brand new. And I very like. And. And that caused me to polarize. Like, I went, oh, well. Like, it's kind of. It's been. It's been fun doing this. But, like, I don't. I don't feel comfortable with anything beyond this. I'm putting beyond in quotes. But something that feels more extreme where I'm like, oh, wait, I have to suggest something to like, seem like, cooler or sexier than her almost as, like, like a competition almost. And so then it was like, oh, well, I don't like the. The idea of trying new things is scary. Yeah, is scary. It makes me feel bad about myself. And it's like, if I had had this idea from the beginning where it's like, oh, oh, yeah, we. There's so many things that we could try of just like, oh, different positions or slightly different techniques or. Or whatever versus, versus, like, oh, it has to be this, like, bondage or like, you know, something that seems more in the, you know, kink direction where it's like, I'm not. I don't feel up for that. I don't feel ready for that right now. That would have changed things so much for me. And, you know, it took me a long time in our relationship even to, like, rewire my brain of like, oh, this is totally different than what I thought.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. And I want to, like, really hone in on the new aspect of it too, because, like, trying being exploratory in the bedroom does not need to mean trying something new you can bring back. And this is honestly what I recommend for people who haven't done much exploration or feel very shy or nervous about it. Just bring back something that you used to do but you haven't done in.

[Xander Marin]

A while or maybe even something that, like, you just kind of happen to do one time in passing.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. Because then you have that confidence of knowing, like, I've already done this. It's not a brand new thing. I've already done it. But you still get the benefits of, you know, switching things up a little bit in the bedroom.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, I think also one thing that we have found is that, you know, we've been together a long time. We've obviously been having sex for a very long time. We are much more comfortable having sex with each other now than we were 10 years ago, 15, 18 years ago, which is wild to say. And so what I have found is that when we bring back something that we have done a very long time ago that maybe didn't go swimmingly or was kind of weird or like, we didn't really talk about it afterwards, it's like, it goes so much better now because we're so much more comfortable with each other. We are so much better equipped to deal with things going a little wonky or us being able to laugh and it not feeling like the stakes are so high. So I think that's another reason to bring things to, like, not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, oh, yeah, we did that once or twice 10 years ago, and it was a little weird. Yeah, well, give it a try. Now. You guys have been having sex for the last 10 years. Like, you're way more comfortable with stuff. It's probably gonna go a lot better. So I gotta tell you guys a quick story. I just had a gum grafting procedure. I'm gonna have to have another one in a couple of months to fix the damage that I caused to my gums. In my 20s, when I was clenching and grinding my teeth and not believing my dentist when they were trying to warn me that I needed to be wearing a night guard, it was really painful. I'm gonna have to do it again. I'm not looking forward to it, and I don't want this to happen to anybody else. Which brings us to our next sponsor, Remy.

[Vanessa]

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[Xander Marin]

Rather than you're in the middle and you're like. You're like, all right, now get on your back and do the blah, blah, blah.

[Vanessa]

Well, I think a lot of times what people do is they feel too nervous bringing something up, so they throw it onto their partner and they're like, want to try something new? What do you want to do? Then your partner's like, I don't ever.

[Xander Marin]

Want to try anything new. Never ask me that question again.

[Vanessa]

Well, it's a really stressful question to get asked in the moment. You're like, oh, my God, it feels like a pop quiz. You don't know. Like, I don't even know the options. My brain goes blank. I can't think of anything.

[Xander Marin]

Or you're really, like, you're really anxious about bringing it up. And so you think, I have an idea. Once we get started and I'm feeling real, you know, once I have, like, the hormones raging, the, like, horny hormones raging in me, all of a sudden I'm going to feel confident to be like, oh, let's do whatever. But then, you know, you're like, bringing it up right in the moment and you're putting your partner on the spot. I think that so many people do that because I'm like, yeah, in the moment, I'm like, oh, fuck yeah, let's do whatever.

[Vanessa]

But it's not.

[Xander Marin]

It's not a great time to bring something up because it feels like the stakes are high. You're in the middle of it. Your partner doesn't want to, like, mess things up. But also, like, who. You don't want to have a curveball thrown at you, like, right in the middle of things.

[Vanessa]

So my favorite ways of bringing it up are to say, I had a dream about it. Cause that's just like a really. It's a very low pressure way of, like, man, I had this dream that we were doing, you know, xyz.

[Xander Marin]

I found myself thinking about this.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, you could say something like that. I found myself thinking about xyz. Or, hey, how about next time we try abc. And again, these can be really small things. It could be. You know what I just realized? We haven't done doggie in forever. Can we do that next time? So it doesn't have to be this big, long speech or anything like that, but I think just bringing it up outside of the bedroom first can feel way less intimidating. You can also text it to your partner if you're feeling really shy and nervous about saying it face to face. Like, hey, you know what? I was just thinking about us doing doggy style. Why you gotta say it like that?

[Xander Marin]

Just send Snoop Dogg doggy style the song to them. Be like, question mark. No, don't do that.

[Vanessa]

Okay, Next tip is to remove the pressure to perform. So the purpose of exploration is simply to explore.

[Xander Marin]

It's not to knock it out of the park.

[Vanessa]

It's not to knock it out of the park.

[Xander Marin]

Not to be a porn star.

[Vanessa]

Not to be a porn star. It's not to best orgasm of your entire life. The benefit of exploration lies simply in the exploration itself. Like, research shows that when we do new things with our partner, regardless of how that new thing goes, our brains light up. We love that sense of novelty. It's what keeps us feeling the spark, keeps us feeling excited. And it's really. Even that element of mystery and unknown of, like, how is this gonna go? Remember, like, that's what the spark was at the beginning of relationship. This, like, oh, my God, are we. Are we going to be in a relationship? Are we not? Are we falling in love? Are we not? Does he feel the same way that I do? You know, so we. We want to bring back, like, some of that uncertainty.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And if you have any doubts about that or you don't believe me, believe us that trying new things together, like, supercharges connection. All you have to do is look at reality shows. Dating reality shows. Like the Bachelor is a great example. Do you ever wonder how is it that people seem to form these really intense connections with each other so quickly? They're together for, like, a couple of hours at most, and they're, like, falling in love with each other. The. The reason why that happens so quickly is it is formulaic. Every single date is putting someone into a new situation. If you ever notice, I was always like, the person that's scared of skydiving that they make go on the skydiving date, or scared to be in a helicopter, and all of a sudden they're in the helicopter. Like, the producers of those shows, they know the actual science of how to forge almost like forge Artificial connection. And they play that up. They literally. That's why you don't see the same date happen twice, like on the season. They're literally putting the same person into different new situations. And it's always things that they've almost never done before because they know it has to be a new thing. A new thing you two do together. And all of a sudden, you have so much more connection than if you just sat together at dinner for two hours.

[Vanessa]

Exactly. Okay. So, yeah, what you want to do is, like, when you're trying new things together, you're not expecting that it's going to be wildly better. It's going to be the best ever experience. Your goal is simply to try.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

Think of it in the same way as, like, trying new food. You're gonna go out to a new restaurant or try a new cuisine that you've never tried. Like, you don't have this expectation that, like, this is gonna be better than anything I've ever eaten. Like, you might walk away thinking, you know, I don't think I wanna try Ethiopian again. It wasn't really my jam. So, yeah. The expectation is not for this to be a best ever experience.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Even on the Bachelor, for example, like, a lot of these dates, they don't go that well, objectively. Like, the activity is a bust. It's weird, somebody hates it. But that is not correlated with how well the date goes overall. Right. Like, it's often those ones, like, they always have those, like a couple really, like, wacky, crunchy type of dates where it's like, you know, they're doing, like, doing some weird, like, staring into each other's eyes or, like, I don't know, some weird ceremony type thing. And it's like. Like neither of them are having fun, but then they have something to laugh about afterwards. They, you know, they make the most of it. And it's that vulnerability and that. That try experiencing something new that creates the connection. So just another. I think that's another great reminder that it's like, yeah, if that show was like, oh, well, the winner is about, like, the date's going perfect. I'm like, that never happens.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. And honestly, some of the most bonding, connecting, intimate experiences that we have had with each other in the bedroom have been when we've been trying something and it didn't go well. Like, for our. We did that, you know, the whole series here of, like, smash or pass of trying different sex tips. And, like, we've never laughed harder, never felt closer to each other. Like, when things go wrong, so again, you're really trying to lower the bar, lower expectations. And one of the specific ways to do that is one of our next tips, which is to really, like, create this container around exploration. So one thing that you can do is have specific sexploration dates with each other. And you can even set a certain cadence that you want to do these with, like, hey, once a month, or, you know, twice a year or whatever it is. Like, we're going to do these little sessions. And we've done this in our own relationship too, where the expectation is set from the very beginning of, we are just trying some new things here. We have no idea how this is gonna go, so we're bringing the pressure down. We have no expectations. The goal is just to try new things. So you can even come up with your own little name for it. I've always used sexploration for years and years. Cause obviously it combines nicely. But you could call it a curiosity night. Or maybe it's like you're taking turns, one person being the leader and one person being the receiver of trying out the new thing. So just. Just kind of setting that intention right from the beginning can be really powerful. Our next tip is to normalize awkwardness. And this is my little spoiler alert that I tried to give you earlier. Everyone always asks us, how do we try new things without it feeling awkward? Or even just like, how do we have sex without it feeling awkward? And we're really big believers that awkwardness is just part of the price of admission of having a great sex life.

[Xander Marin]

Awkwardness is sexy.

[Vanessa]

You would go that far?

[Xander Marin]

I think it can be.

[Vanessa]

Say more. I don't know if I would say it's sexy, but I would say it can feel very intimate.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think that it's sexy because if. If we are doing something and it gets a little awkward, like, that's we're trying. Like, it means, like, we're trying something new. It means we're, like, pushing our comfort zone. It means we're having sex. Like, I don't know. I associate all those with positive things. And I know time after time that we are able to approach sexual awkwardness in a fun way and, like, you know, and have a good time. So it's like, I. I feel like I've associated those two things together.

[Vanessa]

Interesting. I like.

[Xander Marin]

I like that take like, I've sexualized awkwardness.

[Vanessa]

Not like, all awkwardness, but Banner has an awkwardness kink. Actually, you really don't. Awkwardness in real life, you get, like, very uncomfortable. You Feel it too.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, but, yeah, but you know, sexualize awkwardness in bed. Should we put that on church? Like bumper stickers?

[Vanessa]

It's a little too mouthy, I think. Yeah, but I like that take. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't think I've ever thought of awkwardness necessarily as sexy before, but I have thought of it as being very intimate. Because when you are being awkward with your partner, it's because you're being vulnerable. And like, that's the whole fucking point of intimacy. Like, is to be our full selves in front of each other and to show all the different elements of our personality and who we are to each other. If I'm just presenting some perfect version of me that's always sexy and put together and confident, that's not me. And I'm acting in front of like the one person in my life that I shouldn't be acting around, like, awkwardness is taking our, our masks off.

[Xander Marin]

Yes. So I just thought of something as you're saying that when we hear from people saying, how do I make sex less awkward? It's 99% of the time. It is not ever men saying that. It is women saying that. And so many men write in or say, you know, hey, like, it doesn't, like it doesn't seem like my partner really wants to have sex with me or I can't. Doesn't really seem like they really like it or I like it. It's like something that they let me do, but I can't really tell what type of connection they have with it. And I think this is so tied together with like, with we're like wearing the mask having sex, so to speak of, like, oh, it needs to be this certain way. And I kind of do this whole performance. And I think the thing is, I don't think most men unfortunately are quite able to see that like, oh, their partner, like, my partner's having performative sex with me. But what they do see is it seems like this is more for my sake than for my partner's sake. And I think that sort of a huge deep fear of men of that long term, that this thing that they got into a relationship to share with their partner is not actually something that is for sharing, that it's really just something that they, that they need or they want and their partner gives them scraps of. And I think that this being, allowing yourself to be awkward or be real is actually will show your male partner who is fearful, that like, that this, this isn't really something for you that actually, it is. I think that could be a great. That could be a really great first step to, like, healing a lot of. A lot of the misunderstandings that we have around sex. Because. Yeah. I mean, how many men have you heard from that are like, I'm so scared of being awkward with sex. I can't think of any.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, that's a good point. Another way that we make space for the awkwardness in our own relationship is we came up with what we call the first pancake rule, which is based on, like, you know, when you're making pancakes, the first one just, like, it always turns out a little weird no matter what, and then once you get the second one going, it's fine. So we brought that same idea into our sex life. And we. So we have this little rule that whenever we're trying something new for the first time, we kind of just say first pancake. And, like, it's allowed to be weird, bad, awkward. We're allowed to fumble around and, like, not know what we're doing because that's the first pancake. We're, like, expecting it to be that way.

[Xander Marin]

Hey, I mean, you could. From the last tip, like, you could even call your exploration night pancake night.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

If it's, you know, something sort of like, oh, we're gonna give it a. The first time a pancake shot. And, you know, it's probably not gonna. It reminds you it's not necessarily gonna go swimmingly. Oh, maybe it's actually worth trying something twice because the second pancake often turns out good and no one's like, oh, pancakes suck because the first one sucks.

[Vanessa]

We also, for what it's worth, like, we do recommend. When you're trying something new, we usually recommend the. The third time's the charm rule.

[Xander Marin]

Oh.

[Vanessa]

So unless, okay, let's say you try something and it feels painful, unsafe, triggering, just straight up bad. Like, if you really don't ever wanna do that thing again, don't ever do it again. But if it was just awkward, I think it's worth giving it a few tries. Because of the first pancake rule, it very rarely is gonna go great the first time. So, like, at least try it a second time. But I've often found that three is the magic number of, like, you're like, oh, now this clicks. Now I get it. Now I'm having fun. Okay, our next tip is to celebrate the small discoveries. So again, this is all about, like, resizing our expectations for exploration, that it doesn't have to be some seismic huge shift. It doesn't have to be that this has completely changed the way you're gonna have sex forever. Going forward, it could just be that you got some new information. So maybe it's like, oh, that was fun. Maybe it's eh, I didn't really like that thing, but now I feel more excited about exploring more stuff with you. Or oh yeah, like we let ourselves be a little awkward and have the first pancake rule with each other. So like just having those. That acknowledgement of the small wins can be really beneficial. And it's also a great way to keep the conversation going about sex. I keep talking about sex openly when you're celebrating these little small wins. And then our final tip here is to treat exploration as an ongoing thing, not as a one time fix. So exploration is not just a one and done thing. It's something that should be a part of your sex life for the rest of your sex life. And again, it doesn't need to be every single time. I think a nice cadence for it could be like once a month you try something slightly different.

[Xander Marin]

Or every other month.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, sure. I mean you don't have to be like super rigid about it, but just to give like a rough ball. Ballpark.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, ballpark, ballpark.

[Vanessa]

And by the way, again, like trying something new could be, oh, we like moved our legs in slightly different positions in missionary or we had sex at the foot of the bed instead of the head of the bed. You know, it can be small things.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, different room.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, different room. Something different time of day to be simple. But yeah, if you get into the idea and this will take pressure off of exploration if it's like this is an ongoing thing, not a make it or break it one time event. Okay, so now that we've gone over some tips about how to bring more exploration into your sex life, let's tell you a little bit about some explorations that we have been trying out in our sex life.

[Xander Marin]

Some pancakes we've been making.

[Vanessa]

We've been making some pancakes. Okay. And so here's another part of that goes into the surprise that we talked to you about earlier in this episode. So with all of our guides, especially with our foreplay guides and our ultimate foreplay guides and ultimate sex guides, we are constantly trying to try out new things. We use ourselves as the guinea pigs try out new things.

[Xander Marin]

Someone's gotta do it.

[Vanessa]

It's such a hard job. Try new things out because we want these guides to be the best, the most comprehensive guides ever. So we're always trying to explore and experiment with each Other and so we.

[Xander Marin]

Can add to them.

[Vanessa]

We add to the guides. So we are always adding to these guides, new techniques, new features, like they're always being refreshed. So we have been on a little refreshing kick lately, trying some things out. And we are going to be adding some stuff to the foreplay guide soon. So we decided for our pillow talks family, we're always trying to make sure that these episodes feel really valuable. So even if you never buy the foreplay guides from us, we want you to feel like you're still getting good tips. So we're gonna share some stuff with you that might eventually end up only will eventually in the paid guide. Okay. So one thing that we have been experimenting with is having king and queen knights. And this is something that we've done before, but for some reason just like hasn't really like fully made it into the guides before.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, no, we've just really gotten into like medieval cosplay.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. We have Duke and Duchess or knight, King and Queen. Okay. So the whole idea behind this is that we have been taking turns with having one partner get to be totally spoiled and pampered in one given sexual interaction.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. One person is the boss and you.

[Vanessa]

Don'T have like, yeah, King and Queen. Some people don't like using that language. So it could be, you know, the center of attention or the Special Lady Night. What was that show? Wasn't there a show that was like elegant? Elegant Lady Day.

[Xander Marin]

Special Lady Day. It's from the league.

[Vanessa]

The league, yeah. Special Lady Days.

[Xander Marin]

Special Lady Day or Wonderful Lady Day or something.

[Vanessa]

What was it?

[Xander Marin]

I can't remember.

[Vanessa]

I feel like it was elegant or something.

[Xander Marin]

I don't think it was elegant.

[Vanessa]

Something like that anyways. So you can use different name for it if you'd like. But this has been really fun for trying like different techniques with each other and just being able to like really focus on each other. There's just, just something very nice about being able to focus on only receiving or only giving.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Cause I, I think that often there might be something that we would love to experience or love to have our partner do for us. But then in the when, when you're thinking about it in the context of like a normal kind of give and take or two sided sexual experience, you're like, oh, well, maybe like that's going to take up a little too much time or I'm asking too much or you know, oh, well, we do like, you know, she focuses on me for a minute and I focus on her for a minute. Or like we're doing it to each other at the same time so that we get ready for intercourse. And it's like, it doesn't. It just feels like a little too much to ask for something that's like a hard right turn from what you usually do. I mean, I think I would love to convince you that very little is as hard of a right turn as you think it is. But. But I think that this helps you kind of break that down of like, oh, okay, well, if it's just about me and I'm not concerned with, like, oh, are they going to get bored with this? Or, like, they're going to. Or they're going to want some attention focused on them. And, like, how can I do that while I'm getting. How can I give a. When I'm getting y. Or whatever.

[Vanessa]

And so you can make this as elaborate or as not elaborate as you want it to be. I mean, sometimes we've done it where it's just like, okay, we're just going to focus on Xander tonight. I'm going to try, you know, some stuff out on him. Him, it can be for exploration or not. You can just do, like, the things that, you know. I already know what he likes, so I'm just gonna give him all his favorite things in one night.

[Xander Marin]

You could also extend it to be, like, an entire date night, too. Like, it can be sex only, or it could be like, oh, like, you know, the. The king for the night chooses what's gonna be for dinner, and the partner makes that meal for them. And then, you know, and then there's the whole sexy time, too. And then, you know, the next month or whatever, next week, you swap roles. So, yeah, you can extend it as much if it feels fun. Like, you can make an entire day out of it if you really want to. It's just like, what feels fun. Do you want it to be limited to the bedroom? Do you want it to be like a date night? Do you want it to be like, a whole day?

[Vanessa]

And, yeah, I think. Did I forget to mention, these are all foreplay specific experiments that we've been trying. Like, I think the king and queen night works especially well for foreplay because.

[Xander Marin]

Often what you are wanting is like, yeah, I like. I just, like, want to just get a blow job where I just get to lay back and relax or whatever. And that's what I was kind of getting at when I was like, you know, I think a lot of us are worried that, like, what I might ask for doesn't seem to fit in with the normal give and take that we have.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. I think one of the big issues in male female relationships is, like, I mean, literally, look at the wording. We have the word foreplay, which we, by the way, in the foreplay guide say, like on the first page, why we hate that word, but we use it because that's the word everybody uses. But the word is foreplay. The things that you do before you get to the main event. So in male female relationships, foreplay tends to be like 60 seconds of kind of groping at each other, and then you move along. So it's very rare for male, female couples to bring each other to orgasm from just. Just foreplay. I'm putting that in little air quotes. So a king and queen knight is a really great way to say, like, yeah, we're not having intercourse. I am just gonna, you know, give you a blowjob, or you're just gonna go down on me or use your hands on me or a toy on me, whatever it is. So that's been a fun one. Okay, next exploration that we have been trying is using our favorite pillow, the pillow. The pillow. We'll have to put a link to the pillow in the show notes, but this is a pillow that was actually made specifically for intercourse, and we love it for that reason. But we've also been experimenting with using it for oral.

[Xander Marin]

Yes.

[Vanessa]

In our ultimate foreplay guides, we have different positions that are, like, the most comfortable positions for giving oral. Because unfortunately, most people tend to default to the giver being on their stomach, like lying on their stomach on the bed. And that is the worst position if.

[Xander Marin]

You'Re going down on a Volta, specifically.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, like, you're just gonna get. Your neck's gonna hurt.

[Xander Marin]

You're.

[Vanessa]

You know, you're at such a weird angle. It's just really exhausting. So it's not a good position, but we thought, oh, what if we brought in the pillow? Because the pillow changes the angle, lifts.

[Xander Marin]

You up a little and angles you up.

[Vanessa]

It's subtle, but it makes all the difference in the world.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, yeah, yeah, It's. It's. It's the right angle, and it also gives you the full view that you may be having to kind of crane your neck for if you're just lying down on the bed with your partner's butt on the bed as well. So, yeah, it's really brings. Takes things up a notch. It increases my enjoyment.

[Vanessa]

How was your neck?

[Xander Marin]

Oh, my neck, love. My neck's like, let's go.

[Vanessa]

So, yeah, that pillow is worth. Worth every penny. It definitely you'll get more usage out of it for intercourse positions. But it was nice to know that it also works and makes a surprisingly big difference for.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, really, really increases the. The enjoyment of the experience.

[Vanessa]

Okay. The next thing that we have been playing around with is more stimulation of the outer labia.

[Xander Marin]

And I think we actually discovered this. I do think, think thanks to the pillow and some of the positions that it allows you to get into and the way that it kind of like raised your pelvis relative to me where it kind of like gave me the ability to do more with my hands while I was doing, you know, more with everything.

[Vanessa]

So. Yeah, like in the ultimate foreplay guides, we talk about playing with the outer labia more as like a warm up up. You know, one of the big mistakes that men make when it comes to doing foreplay on a woman is men have the tendency to go way too.

[Xander Marin]

Fast or just go straight for the vagina. Like with the fingers or the clitoris.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, yeah. Like you guys get excited. And I think men tend to prefer more direct, like, get right to it. I'm excited. Let's go. Whereas women will tell us. A lot of women will actually say, my favorite part of foreplay is being teased. Like, I want you to get me to the point where I'm begging for you to go further and the number.

[Xander Marin]

That makes things move faster once you actually get to more. More of the main event.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. So like, women love the tease. We love it to be drawn out. We love the slow, sensual touching. Obviously everybody's different and like, you need to talk to your unique partner. But in general, many, many women, the vast majority of women, like, want men to slow down and pay more attention. So we do spend a lot of the foreplay guides talking about like different ways to get her to that point where she's like begging you to go further.

[Xander Marin]

That was my. That was mind boggling. Just a quick aside. That's. It was so mind boggling to me the first time we had a real honest conversation about what each of our individual experiences with teasing felt like. And I could not wrap my head around the idea until you really described what it was like for you.

[Vanessa]

You.

[Xander Marin]

That it could be like enjoyable in and of itself.

[Vanessa]

And I could not understand how you could not sing that way.

[Xander Marin]

It's only enjoyable once the tease ends. Like, the tease. It's like, it's not. The tease is not unenjoyable, but it is literally a tease. And it's like. And it's like, I'm not feeling like Relief until you actually move on to touching me directly or intercourse or whatever. And it was like. Like, oh, wait, like you actually enjoy this. Like, this is something that's worth doing just for doing it.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

Mind boggling. Mind boggling. That's a conversation that is worth having with your partner, especially if you are a woman and he is a man. Because I almost guarantee you the vast majority of men do not have the same relationship with what teasing is like for them as it is for you.

[Vanessa]

Yes. So have that conversation. But yeah, so like we. Like I was saying with the foreplay guides, we talk about, you know, stroking the labia and different, like, techniques of stimulating them to, like, warm her up and get her excited for you to touch her clitoris or go internal, you know, in the vagina. But it wasn't really something that we've experimented with that much, like, outside of a warmup.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, well, most of that, I think, is because when we are having intercourse, like, there's not. I can't really easily reach the labia very well. Like, it's like if I'm on top of you.

[Vanessa]

I love you trying to act with that.

[Xander Marin]

I have to, like, I have to get scoop my hand in. I don't even know how. There's not a lot of space between your legs and my legs.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

And then if you are on top of me again, I can access the clit with my thumb, but I can't, like. But yeah, again, you're on me. There's nothing. Not. There's not the level of access. However, with the pillow, in certain positions with kind of like legs more up in the air, there are a lot of possibilities I did not know existed until a couple months ago.

[Vanessa]

So, yeah, that was a fun discovery for us to make during intercourse. And then we realized, like, why don't we bring more of that into foreplay as well? So I'll share, like, the most effective technique. This is for my unique body. It can be different for other people's bodies. But on me, what's been most effective is using your thumb, one thumb on each, and doing this motion from the bottom up to the top.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, with some lubrication.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, with lube. And with a pretty decent amount of pressure, too. And I found that, yeah, it feels like we talk a lot about how the clitoris. Most people think of it as just like that little nub of skin that you can typically see with your eye, but the clitoris actually extends up into the body. It splits off into two legs. It's a much bigger structure than Most people realize. And so when you're stimulating the labia, you're indirectly can be stimulating the clitoris, too. And I've felt a lot more sensation than I thought I would from that.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And so, yeah, you can do that on its own. You can do that. That during intercourse. You could do that while you're, you know, you are using your. Your fingers, your thumbs on the labia. That takes up both of your hands. Your partner could be. Could be touching their own clit while you're doing that. They could be using a toy internally on themselves. Like, there's a whole lot of options for ratcheting up the stimulation on top of just the. The labia stimulation.

[Vanessa]

Okay. And then the last thing that we have been playing around with is using a single finger stroke on me. So one thing that we talk about in the foreplay guides is that a lot of people have this tendency to get overly complicated with their technique. We, like, wanted. We want to be doing something that, like, feels really fancy and, like, advanced and crazy. And then we, like, also are trying to mix it up constantly and, like, doing, you know, let me do this. This technique for a little bit, and then I'm gonna switch to this technique, and then I'm gonna switch to this one. Is this.

[Xander Marin]

Men trying to compete with vibrators who are like, it goes so, fuck, I gotta. I gotta be able to do like, 10 different things real fucking fast.

[Vanessa]

Definitely men are more guilty of this than women are. But, yeah, there is this tendency to get overly complicated and to change things up too much. And so we've been experimenting with what if we really, like, like, strip things back and try to do the most basic, simple kind of stimulation. And I found this to be really interesting. Like, there's a way that when you're so simple, there is an interesting way that it helps you, like, focus on the sensation more where it kind of. It almost starts to feel a little bit meditative and, like, kind of gets you in the zone a little bit, and you pay attention to the subtleties of it so much more. So I found this to be really interesting to experiment with. Like, it's not, you know, it's not something that I would necessarily do, like, start to finish, or probably not something that I would do, like, every single time, but just to kind of try something a little bit different, especially in those times where I was wanting to just, like, slow down and be more present in the moment where it was not a lot, like, hey, we got 10 minutes. Do you want to get this done? Kind of Vibe for the night. This felt really interesting. So, yeah, just a really simple. I think what tends to be easiest is, like, using your thumb so you kind of place your fingers on top of, like, on top of the vulva, and then just use your thumb to stroke from. Now I'm acting it out to stroke from the bottom of the clitoris up to the top. If you're somebody who likes direct clitoral stimulation, you can stroke straight over the clitoris itself. If you don't like direct stimulation, you can go to the side of the clitoris. And if you do that, I recommend alternating going from side to side, so you're really making more of, like, a U around it. You also definitely want to use lube for this one, but it's really interesting. Yeah, it just helps you, like, be a lot more present in the moment and tuned into those sensations.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I mean, that's a great suggestion for, like, say, a queen night where you're like, yeah, I just, you know, I want you to. You know, I want both of us to just get comfortable and really, you know, and I want to just be able to lock in to this and, like, relax and feel into it, because I think most of us don't think of that or don't suggest that during partnered sex because we're like, oh, like, what, my partner's gonna get bored? Or they're not gonna be stimulated at all. Like, you know, oh, like, they're just gonna be sitting there for 10 minutes, and it's like, yeah, give yourself the permission to do that by having one of these, you know, one of these nights where it is just all about you, and then, yeah, like, really enjoy it yet.

[Vanessa]

All right, well, those are just some of the things that we have been experimenting with. They will find their way into the ultimate foreplay guides eventually.

[Xander Marin]

But you have them now.

[Vanessa]

You got them now.

[Xander Marin]

And you can get the foreplay guides now, too.

[Vanessa]

You can? For 40 bucks. Come on. 40 bucks. If you want to check those out, you can go straight to vmtherapy.com fourplay and we will also put the link directly in the show notes for you. And that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.