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- [00:00]
A
If you stop having touch in your relationship, non sexual touch. If the only time you guys touch each other is immediately in the lead up to sex or during sex itself, that is going to make you get so on guard to his touch. Because every time he touches you, you're going to think he has a motive. He's trying to go for something. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20
- [00:38]
B
years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.
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A
Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. In today's episode, we are going to be deep diving into a DM that we got recently. Yes, this woman took the time to write out really long description of the situation that she was going through. And as we were reading it, we just couldn't help but thinking, I bet there are so many people who can relate to so many different pieces of this message, if not the whole thing. So it just felt like the perfect one to do a longer deep dive into. You know, we get so many questions on Instagram and we try our best to answer as many as we can, but of course we can't get to every single one.
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B
And so, and this one deserves, you know, we. You can't respond to this just via text. Can't really respond to this in a story. This is a. There's a long form answer is not even the right word. There's just the long form response.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Is the only thing that, that does, you know, the service of this message.
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A
So we are going to be reading through it. We'll pause at different points to kind of get into some of our thoughts, feedback, ideas, all that kind of stuff. I think this is also a great episode to listen to with your partner. We really try to design so many of our episodes to open up conversations within relationships. Like listen to it together. You guys can do the same thing. Like pause, talk about, hey, what do you think? Do you relate to this? What would you tell this couple to do? It can just be a nice way to get a conversation going. I think oftentimes it can be easier to talk about other people's relationships rather than our own. So this can be a nice way to get communicating about some Important topics without that vulnerability of, hey, babe, I need to talk to you about something. Okay, so let's get started. Hey. I just wanted to reach out and see what you would recommend for me. Honestly, I feel like going to sex therapy would be beneficial, but we can't afford to do that at this point in our life. I just want to pause there and say this is one of the main reasons why we're so passionate about the work that we do and about making guides that are easily accessible and available online, our business. I don't see people one on one anymore. I made this transition to making online guides and courses because I wanted these tools and resources to be available to people. I mean, the reality is there just aren't that many sex therapists out there. So good luck finding one that's in your town that has openings, that takes your insurance, that's affordable. And it can just be a challenge, like taking that time to go to a session in person, talk about everything that's been going on. And sex therapy, it's also a specialized field, and because there aren't that many people in it, and because it is the specialty, it's often a lot more expensive than traditional therapy too. So just a little aside, I know that wasn't what she was asking about at all, but I just wanted to toss that in there too. Okay. She says, my husband and I have been married for eight years. We have four kids, six years to five months old. So four littles.
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B
Yeah, they're in it.
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A
They are in it, absolutely. I feel like sex has always been a struggle for me since we got married, especially after our first baby. Reaching orgasm has always been super hard for me. It was to the point that I don't want to put the effort into it. I'll just take care of him and then I just don't because it's too much work. Okay.
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B
I think so. She means I just don't then put any effort into myself to getting it over. Whether it's giving myself an orgasm or advocating for him contributing to her orgasm.
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A
This is absolutely mistake number one and it might even be the main mistake that she's making here. We read this DM a while ago and I wanted to kind of forget it so we could respond freshly to it. So I haven't read it in quite a while now. So maybe there were some other issues issues coming up too. But this is such a common thing that women do. We self sacrifice during sex.
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B
And it seems really harmless in the beginning. I think that the first time it's Just, oh, I just don't. I don't have energy today, so I'm not going to today. No big deal. Right?
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A
I don't know. I don't know if it even seems harmless to a lot of us. I think we know in the back of our minds that this isn't a good thing to be doing, but it just. It feels easier. I'll say that. I wouldn't say harmless, but I would say easier. So if you are denying yourself the experience of pleasure and orgasm during sex, very quickly that is going to come around and start biting you in the ass.
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B
Well, it's going to start feeling like it switches from, oh, I'm in control. I'm choosing to forego this thing, and very quickly it turns into, I don't deserve this thing. I think that happens in all kinds of stuff when we deny ourselves all. All kinds of things.
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A
Oh, I thought you were gonna go in a different direction with that. But, yeah, continue.
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B
Well, good. I mean, I think it's the same, you know, it's like if you are like, oh, you know, I. I'm not allowed to eat X, Y, and Z. I'm not allowed to do whatever activity until. Blah. Like, I think that we kind of make these almost like judgments on ourselves, oh, I can't do this anymore. I can't do that. I can't eat that. Can't. Blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, after you. If you keep sort of punishing yourself, like, she's not ever. I don't think she was ever thinking about, oh, I'm gonna punish myself by not having an orgasm. But effectively, what we are subconsciously doing is punishing ourselves. We're saying, oh, you're not allowed to do something enjoyable. You're not allowed to have something enjoyable. And I think that at a certain point, it makes this subconscious switch into, I don't deserve this. I can't have it. I don't deserve it.
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A
I was gonna say it makes a switch from, I'm making a conscious choice to say, ah, don't worry about me into it eventually starts turning into a feeling of resentment towards your partner.
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B
Oh, absolutely.
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A
That you. It starts feeling. And I speak to this from personal experience because I did a lot of this in my pre Xander sex life days. You start feeling like your partner doesn't care that they're not making an effort, that they're not even trying. Like, and you forget that you've trained your partner to do that because you kept saying over and over again, don't worry about me. It's fine. Go ahead.
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B
Yeah. It's like you trained yourself and your partner to not do something or to forego something or to ignore something. But yeah, it. Eventually it turns, you know. Yeah. Like you're saying, oh, yeah. No, it's just easier right now if I skip this tonight or if I skip this for right now. And then it slowly becomes, you know, oh, this thing that I can't have or this thing that I don't deserve. And then when the resentment starts building, it's almost like, oh, well, I can't have this because my partner isn't allowing. It's like, then, you know, it's hard to be forever, like, you know, down on ourselves. And we'll often switch the blame to someone else. And so, yeah, I could. I could totally imagine that. Then it starts to feel like her husband is doing it to her in the. Unless we'll be clear, we'll talk more about the rest of this. It's not like the husband plays no part in this. We will talk about that. Do not worry.
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A
But we're just going through piece by piece.
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B
But it is interesting when you kind of untangle all the pieces where it's like, you know, it. It is. It's so tough because there is a lot of personal responsibility for the actions that we take that start kind of the train down the tracks.
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A
Yeah. So the main problem that happens is if you deny yourself the experience of pleasure and orgasm during sex, you very quickly are going to stop having the desire for sex. It does not make sense for us to desire something that is not enjoyable. We always hear people say, like, by far and away, the number one complaint that we hear is, I have no libido. I have low libido. And we always ask people who tell us this, tell us about the sex that you are having. And oftentimes, almost every time, what they'll describe is sex that is boring, predictable routine. There's nothing in it for me. It's all about my partner. I say, don't worry about me. Just go ahead. And we just don't seem to make that connection that if you're not enjoying something, why on earth would you crave it? You don't have a desire problem. You have an enjoyment problem. So I love comparing this. I always make food comparisons. Cause I love food, but it's like mushy broccoli. Do you ever wake up just absolutely craving a bowl of overly steamed mushy broccoli? No, of course not. Do you think there's anything wrong with you for not wanting mushy broccoli. Of course not. And you can replace.
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B
You probably never thought about that.
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You can replace mushy broccoli with any food that you don't particularly enjoy. Like, you don't beat yourself up for, why don't I love broccoli? Why don't I love oysters? Why don't I love mushrooms? You know, we just know, like, yeah, I don't like that thing, so why would I crave having it?
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B
That was a weird. Almost like two truths in a life. Because you threw in stuff that you don't like. Mushy broccoli, oysters. And then you said mushrooms.
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A
Well, because a lot of people don't like mushrooms. I love mushrooms. Any and all mushrooms. But a lot of people don't like them because you're crazy. Because they're great. But anyways, if you're not enjoying something, why would you crave it? It's true of food and it's absolutely true of sex. So I get that a lot of times it just feels easier. It just feels simpler. It's okay. I'm fine. But what you're doing is not only ensuring that you don't have a good experience in that moment, you're also destroying your libido.
- [10:53]
B
Though one thing I do wonder is she's saying, I feel like sex has been a struggle since we got married. I'm curious, was it not a struggle before she got married? I mean, and I don't know if that's like, if she means it wasn't a struggle with her current husband before they got married or if with other partners it wasn't a struggle. I would be really curious if we were seeing this person two on one. I would definitely want to ask some questions about. Tell me about what your sex life used to look like with your husband. Tell me what your sex life used to look like and feel like with prior partners. Because I think that there would be some interesting work to try to understand. Okay, so what was happening differently back then? Did you have a different mindset? Were you having different experiences? Were you doing different activities? Were there different relationship dynamics? Like, I would really love to. To learn more about that. So for, you know, I know we're not actually here with this person, but that would be a great thing for you to think back on. Is. Yeah. Is it truly that something like a switch flip when you got married that might imply to me or some. Some kind of dynamic or something like, what else changed that caused sex to feel more difficult after that? So that's just one piece. That's not going to be the answer to the problem, but that is definitely going to give you hints as to parts of the solution and then going
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A
back to the orgasm aspect of it. I also want to mention, she says, reaching orgasm has always been super hard for me. That is the case for a lot of women. But I want to assure you that there are techniques and strategies that you can learn to make orgasm faster and easier.
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B
Way less hard.
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A
Yeah, and way less hard. If you don't have a ton of experience with your orgasm, on average, it's gonna take 20 minutes. But we hear from women all the time where it's like 40 minutes, 60 minutes even. But with the right techniques and some practice, most women can learn. The vast majority of women can learn how to orgasm in under 10 minutes, even under five minutes.
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B
Yeah, that's exactly. I mean, that's the experience that most of the women who go through finishing your orgasm course have is that. Yeah. At the beginning, you start starting to have consistent orgasms. Can actually feel like a lot of work. Oh, it's taking a lot of time. It is taking a lot of work. But it's. What is. It's first, it's having the experience of, oh, yes, I can have them every time. I am having them every time. Then it's about dialing in the technique. But of course, nobody ever teaches you this technique in school, right? So, like, where would you learn it? So it's unfortunate that most people get to this point where they're like, oh, yeah, it's always been really difficult, and now it's just wreaking havoc on my relationship, on my marriage, before they realize, oh, this is actually something I gotta work on. Because honestly, it probably really just gets back to the differences in the way that men and women are socialized. Women are not socialized. That it is okay to masturbate and to experiment with their own bodies, you know, in their, you know, kind of like not prepubescent, but they're pubescent years, Right. Like when they are starting to, you know, have a bit of a sexual awakening. Whereas boys, young men, like, absolutely. They're not encouraged per se, but it's like, oh, you know, boys will be boys. Boys masturbate, Right. Like, it's just something that happens. And I know for me, I. I trained myself relatively quickly because I was doing it all the time. How to come really quickly. Honestly, most men swing too far the other way. Right? Like, it's. It's this thing that's. Oh, you know, it's it's accepted that you do it, but it's, you know, you don't want someone walking in on you, right? So it's like you're just thinking, oh God, let me do this fast, let me do this quick. I don't want to get caught. Right. And we train ourselves to come so quick. So once we start having partnered sex, very often we have to learn how to take longer. So it's just, it's just interesting how, how that works.
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A
But yeah, okay, let's get back to it. So she said after my second baby, a midwife recommended trying a vibr. And that made a significant difference for me. And it still does.
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B
Good finding.
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A
Yeah, that is a good finding.
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B
Great data point. You are not broken. Clearly your body, like, your body can have an easier time. But I'm not saying that you should just use a vibrator all the time.
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A
But I also want to say that's not the one and only like, technique for learning how to get there fast.
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B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because on the flip side, we hear from so many women who say, yeah, I have a vibrator, I do it a very specific way, you know, a very specific setting, and I come really, really fast, but I can't come in any other way. And it feels like I've, you know, ruined my body's ability to do anything other than respond to the vibrator in this very specific way. And yeah, that is true. If you only, if you only orgasm in the exact same way every single time, then yeah, you're, you're basically training your brain. Just like I was saying, men train themselves to come really fast. You can train your brain to be like, only responding to this very specific type of thing. Just like men can train themselves to respond to the death grip, which is really, really tight grip, meaning that like nothing but that tight grip can allow them to orgasm. So yeah, that is definitely something to watch out for. But yeah, vibrator can be a great assessment tool of like, oh, okay, is it that? Is it that I'm totally broken and I just take forever? Well, no, that's never the answer. But the vibrator can be the proof that, oh yeah, I can respond to this.
- [16:27]
A
Xander has been on a surf trip for the last two weeks and one of the things that he made sure to pack was his cure Hydration packs and energy mix because you get dehydrated when you are surfing. So cure makes these incredible hydration packs. They're plant based hydrating electrolyte drink mix with no added sugar. But really delicious flavors. They have watermelon berry pomegranate lemonade. I know that's Xander's personal favorite, but I think he packed all three of them and they come in these really convenient little packets so he could just throw them in his bag really easily, take them out whenever he's going surfing. Cure also makes Energy Mix. It's a plant based energy drink mix made with clean ingredients, natural caffeine and electrolytes to keep you energized and hydrated without the crash. No added sugar, no artificial junk, but it has its own unique tasty flavors like peach tea and acai berry. I know Xander's been enjoying those in particular. Really great for like a pre workout or that afternoon slump. Staying hydrated isn't just about water. You also need electrolytes. That's why we love Cure. It's clean and it tastes great. You can grab Cure on Amazon or find a store near you@curehydration.com pillow. Real ingredients, real hydration. Okay. She says my libido is almost non existent. Exactly what I was talking about before. That's the huge connection between our enjoyment and our desire. A couple of years ago, I had my hormones checked and my testosterone was almost non existent. I started using a cream for that and it seemed to help with my libido a little bit, but when I'm nursing my baby, I can't use it.
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B
Okay, this is also very interesting data point.
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A
So people always ask about hormones when it comes to low libido. And I get it, because hormones seem like, oh, if it's just hormones, they can just fix it, right? Just like take some hormones and then I'm good. The reality is that for, let's say there are a hundred people that have low libido or no libido, maybe maybe like five of them. It's gonna be a purely hormonal issue where, yes, getting their hormones balanced will resolve the libido issue. But for the vast majority of people, it's other issues at play or combination with this. So like she says, you know, the cream helped a little bit, but it didn't help that much. And this is even with somebody who had almost no testosterone, which is the main hormone that plays a role in our sex drive. So I think this is a good illustration that hormones are not always the solution to libido.
- [19:10]
B
They very rarely are, though, in this person's case. I mean, she is saying that it did help a little bit. But also I'm assuming that she's had to kind of go on and off of it because she can't use it when she's nursing on. I am not a doctor, but I do want to call out that there are a variety of methods for delivering testosterone. Cream is only one of them. And so, you know, I think a lot of us, you know, it's, it feels embarrassing talking about hormones as it is because it again, it feels like something where it's like, oh, well, I should just be naturally the perfect balance, right? And it can feel weird talking to a doctor about it. And so it can be very easy to be like, oh, the doctor's the authority, they just give me this thing and this is the option. But in this case, I mean, I would encourage this person to talk to your doctor, potentially seek out some other hormone doctors to ask about alternate methods for delivering the hormones because cream is not the only way. And yes, cream can be challenging because of transfer and because you can't use it it in certain situations. But there absolutely could be some other options for you just to get a better balance. Now like Vanessa said, that is not going to totally solve the problem. As we are about to see. There are a number of other issues at play. But at least that can, you know, that can give you better initial conditions. I think like, so the hormones can help. But in this case, hormones are not going to be the magic bullet because we're about to get into some of
- [20:45]
A
the other stuff going on since having this baby. And even before the biggest thing we argue about is sex. My husband really needs it and wants it all the time. But I could care less if we kiss or anything. I don't enjoy him touching my body. I don't care to touch him at all, even in a non sexual way. Because if I do, then it encourages the idea that maybe I do want something. And 99% of the time I don't. Okay, here's another classic, classic mist mistake that so many women make. Pulling back on the non sexual touch. And I get it because so many of us have this exact thought. I don't want to lead my partner on. I don't want him to think that I'm open to something. And then he continues for more.
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B
Don't want to give. I mean, I think this one is so socializing. You don't want to give a man the wrong idea. I mean that's like teenage girls. Oh, you don't want, don't give him the wrong idea. Right. That is so baked in to women's heads that I think it just, it, it's this just this Immediate thing. Oh, don't. I don't want to give him the wrong idea. I can't. I shouldn't touch him.
- [21:52]
A
But here is the problem. If you stop having touch in your relationship, non sexual touch, if the only time you guys touch each other is immediately in the lead up to sex or during sex itself, that is going to make you get so on guard to his touch. Because. Because every time he touches you, you're gonna think he has a motive, he's trying to go for something, and it's gonna lead to what we call the bristle reaction, where you can actually feel your body like recoil when your partner touches you. You bristle at their touch and your partner can feel that. And that feels absolutely awful to your partner too, because sometimes they are genuinely just trying to reach out and hold your hand or touch your shoulder or caress your back and they can feel you having this reaction to them. The solution to this is to actually have more non sexual touch. You have to break this connection that you've made. That touch is only for sex, that you only are open to touch. If you're open to it going further, you have to bring more non sexual touch into the relationship. And making this even more ironic is the sex drive types. We have a whole episode that's a much deeper dive on this a couple episodes back, if you want to scroll back. But a lot of women, about 70 to 80, 75 to 85% have what's responsive desire. Where we don't feel mentally interested in sex until we are already being physically stimulated. Like you're in the middle of sex or even at the end of the of sex and you catch yourself thinking, this is fun. Why do I never seem to want this? That's responsive desire. And so you need touch for your desire to even come online in the first place. So again, if you're cutting yourself off from having any sort of touch with your partner, you are cutting yourself off from the possibility of ever getting turned on. So this coupled with the not allowing herself to have orgasms, it's just an absolute recipe for zero libido whatsoever.
- [23:55]
B
Yeah, I think this might sound a little tough. Vanessa gave a lot of really good advice on how to start to unwind the bristle reaction if you're struggling with that. I think you also have to start asking yourself some really tough questions once you find yourself in this situation. Because she's saying here, I could care less if we kiss. I don't enjoy him touching my body. I don't want him to touch my body. And like, you gotta kind of play this out into the future if this is how you feel and if this is how you are going to continue to feel. What kind of marriage do you have? What are the chances for this marriage to be successful in the long term? Do you truly never want to have sex again? Is that what you actually want or is that what you feel like has to be the, the answer right now, but you're hoping that maybe something will change. And I think that a lot of us are too scared to play this out. And yeah. So I'm not saying, oh well, you just have to start having sex, you have to just start wanting sex or else your marriage is going to end. But I do think that you have to, you have to accept this is not a tenable long term approach for a successful marriage. This is not the type of marriage that I got into, a non sexual one. Some people do get into non sexual marriages and if you, that's what you got into, that's the arrangement that you have, then absolutely, that is great. But I assume this is not the type of marriage that you got into. And so I think you have to ask yourself, how much do I want to make a change? How. And, and, and I, I know that you say you can't afford therapy, but also can you afford a divorce? Like what is it going to look like if your marriage ends because you're not, because, because your sex life, you know, between you and your partner is broken. So I think that as hard as it is, we got to get our head out of the sand a little bit and ask ourselves, what else am I willing to sacrifice in my life financially in order to get the help that we really need in order to stay together long term? Do we even want to be together long term? I think a lot of people get into this situation but don't really, like, don't just don't really have a strong opinion on, okay, like, do I actually want this to last? Or just like, okay, this is where I am right now and it's really hard, but I'm just gonna kind of deal with it day by day. But I would encourage you to try to find the motivation for what you truly want, to play this out in the future and figure out how much, how much kind of sacrifice are you willing to make to make a real change?
- [26:47]
A
To add another little tricky thing in here, my husband has had issues with pornography for his whole life since we have been married. It goes in spurts. He tries really hard not to look at it and does really good Most of the time, but every now and again, he really struggles. Struggles. Okay, I just want to pause here and name that. I think the husband should probably get some support for his relationship with porn. It's really hard for me to know based on this description if this is, like, I don't know if this is just a couple who says, we don't want porn in our lives at all and he's, you know, every now and then watching it, or if this is an issue where he might potentially be addicted to porn. And even the idea of porn addiction is really controversial in the sex therapy space. So I just really don't know what's going on on here, but I would recommend some additional support if this is something where it's feeling like a really unhealthy relationship with it. Okay, let me get back into it. I think part of our issue is his expectations for sex. He wants me to want him, and I feel like he wants me to want sex like the girls in porn want sex. And I just don't on any level. But I.
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B
Spoiler alert. The girls in porn don't actually want sex the way you think they do,
- [27:58]
A
but I feel like there is some expectation there. Okay, so here I want to call out that it's really reasonable and understandable for your husband to want to feel wanted. I think so often, especially with men, we have this way of downplaying their desire for sex. You know, we think of it as, oh, he's just trying to get off. He just wants some. I'm just like a warm body for him. It's not anything about me. And, you know, we talk so much much here and on our Instagram about the fact that sex is so much more than just a physical act. It's not just putting body parts and other body parts. It's not just having an orgasm. It is connection. It's intimacy. It's one of the most vulnerable things we do with each other. It asks us to show up as our full, authentic selves with each other. It's this special thing that we do only with our partner. It's what differentiates our relationship from just a friendship or from roommates or business partners in life. It's a way we play as adults. It's so much more than just that. So I've kind of seen this. This vibe interwoven throughout this question where her husband's desire for sex just feels like an annoyance to her. And I want to be empathetic because I get that she's really struggling with, you know, some of her own challenges and really feeling disconnected from her own sexuality. But I think it would be really useful for her to recognize that. That what her husband is really wanting is to feel connected to her, to feel intimacy with her, and especially to feel wanted. We all want to feel wanted. Men are not immune from that. Men are not immune from that vulnerability, from that emotion. Like, I think he's probably wondering, like, are you still attracted to me? Do you still want to be with me?
- [29:53]
B
Yeah, I think that that's really one of men's base fears in relationships, in marriage, especially long term, as the years go by. Because I just hear from so many men where it's like, at the beginning of the relationship, seemed like she really wanted me. It seemed like she really loved sex. It seemed like we loved our sex life. And then as the years went by, it seemed like I still love it just the same, if not more. And I can't tell if she does. Like, was that all. Was that all real? What we experienced at the beginning, was that a dream? Was that fake? Was that a lie? And it's like, you know that. That you can kind of spin out and create something, you know, that. That can be its own. Resentment isn't really the right word, but almost like we. A line of questioning that won't go away for you.
- [30:45]
A
Okay, getting back to her question, she said, most of the time he will be frustrated about me not wanting it, so we will just do it anyway. And so I think I've started to res. Sex. Okay, you can not do this anymore. Like, I wish, I wish that I could just speak directly to her. I really hope that she's listening. Do not force yourself to have sex like this. You are absolutely destroying your libido, you are destroying your spirit, and you're destroying your marriage. Like, forcing yourself in this situation. And I'm not saying that he's perfect or not at fault at all. We will get into this a little bit more. But pushing yourself to have. Just giving up, giving in and saying, fine, just do sex to me. I will just lie here. This is soul crushing. It is not okay for you to do this. You deserve so much more. And the irony is he doesn't want this either. I can guarantee you, without even talking to your husband, he's not enjoying sex. When you say, ugh, fine, just do it, whatever. Like, that's not the kind of sex he wants either. That's not the kind of sex that makes him feel wanted, that makes him feel desired, that makes him feel close to you, intimate with you. Like, this is terrible for both of you.
- [31:59]
B
I mean, you're literally like winding the clock on the ticking time bomb that is your relationship. It's your marriage. I hate to say it, but it's true. Do you wish you had more fun in your relationship?
- [32:16]
A
If you're like most couples, you do, but you also struggle with what exactly to do to have more fun and feel more connected.
- [32:24]
B
And that is exactly why we created the Spark.
- [32:27]
A
It's a monthly digital drop where you get one sweet date night, one spicy date night, a new sex position to try and therapist created connection questions delivered straight to your inbox. It is designed to keep things fresh, flirty and easy, even in the busiest seasons of life.
- [32:46]
B
Yeah. No planning, no awkward. What should we dos?
- [32:49]
A
We lay out everything for you. All you have to do is follow the instructions. And the best part part is that it is nine bucks per month. That's like the cost of a latte these days.
- [33:01]
B
Yeah. So if you're ready for more laughter, more curiosity and more fun, head on over to vmtherapy.com spark to join.
- [33:10]
A
That's vmtherapy.com spark because a little spark goes a long way. We have been sleeping on our Birch mattress for a while now and and I am obsessed with this mattress. We have tried a bunch of different mattresses. I think Xander and I are both sleeping princesses. We just really want to have a good mattress. And I was very excited about Birch because they use only the finest quality materials like organic fair trade cotton, organic wool and natural latex. I was really hoping that this would work out because I've been on a quest to find an organic mattress and oh my God, this mattress is incredible. I seriously highly recommend it. But I know mattresses because you have to try it out and see if it feels right for you. Right. That's why Birch makes it really easy. They offer 120 night risk free trial to see how your body adjusts. The mattress is shipped directly to your door for free. It comes rolled up in a box. It's super easy to set up and I really think that you are going to love sleeping and doing other things on this mattress. We want all of our listeners to enjoy a deep, restful night's sleep with a new mattress from burbank. Go to birchliving.com pillow talks for a great deal. Go to birchliving.Com pillow talks for 20% off. That's birchliving.com pillowtalks and get 20% off. Birchliving.com pillowtalks. Okay. She Says, I don't know if that's a thing or not, but anytime it's brought up, I just get angry inside and I huff and puff about it all.
- [34:53]
B
That's resentment. That is the thing. That is literally resentment. And it's getting to a pretty serious state. Like, this is a. This isn't. You know, resentment starts as just something in your head of, you can't. I. Oh, God, I can't believe that they're still doing this. I can't believe. Ugh. Like, why aren't they. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, right? Then you start to more feel it in your body. Like, oh, it's like this real visceral reaction. And then it turns into an actual outward thing. Like you are saying you are huffing and puffing, like, you are having, like, visible signs of it. And like, that is a very, very serious end state. Like, it sounds to me like you are very close to snapping.
- [35:33]
A
Yeah. And you, you deserve more. Like, I know we're being, you know, we're giving you some tough love here because it's. Because we believe that you deserve so much more. Like, nobody deserves to have a sex life like this. Nobody wants. Nobody thinks about getting married and spending their life with the rest of, you know, the rest of their life with somebody to have this kind of sex. It's just. It's so demoralizing. And truly, like, everyone deserves more than this. Okay. She continues. I've tried telling him I need emotional attention first, and he does try, but I don't feel like he understands fully what I need. But that's also my fault because I don't really know what I need either. So that just makes us both more frustrated.
- [36:16]
B
I. I'm curious why you are asking, why you are saying that you need more emotional attention if you're also not sure what kind of emotional attention you need.
- [36:30]
A
Oh, I disagree. No, yeah, I think. I think she sound. Okay, well, first of all, let's kind of back up and say this is also something that we talked about in that sex drive type episode. So if you haven't listened to that. Absolutely. Go back, rewind, listen to it. Because we talk about how some people want to feel emotionally connected before having sex, and some people want to have sex as a way to open up emotional connection. And typically a relationship is comprised of one of each type, so you feel like you're completely on opposite pages with each other. Stereotypically, women are the ones who want emotional attunement first, where men are the ones who want physical intimacy first.
- [37:11]
B
Not always.
- [37:12]
A
Not Always.
- [37:12]
B
I'm an exception to that rule.
- [37:14]
A
We are both an exception to that rule. We're the. The opposite of that. But I also think so much of that boils down to socialization. Like, women are taught that we are emotional. We're allowed to have emotions, but we're not supposed to be too sexual. Whereas men are taught, you're not supposed to have emotions, you're not supposed to express emotions, but it's okay for you to be sexual. So it's like, yeah, we grow up knowing what we're allowed to ask for. Okay. But to your point where you're like, I don't get why she's saying I need emotional attunement, but, like, nothing feels right. My hunch is that she's just in a place of life where she is so overwhelmed and overloaded that she feels inconsolable. It's like she knows she needs something, but nothing feels like it fits. And I've been in that kind of place before. I think you've been in that kind of place before, too. And it's so sad, and it's really hard. You're just like, I know I need something, but nothing feels like it's landing. Nothing feels like it's working. I think there's a real grief. There's. I think that she has to feel some grief in order to unlock, like, what is it that I do need? Because it's kind of existential in a way. Like, a lot of us just. We have this deep longing, this deep need inside of ourselves that feels like sometimes it feels like it can't ever be filled. So I think there's some grief there. But, you know, there could also be
- [38:41]
B
some grief, too, for all the pleasure and the connection that you have denied yourself over the years by not asking for what you want in bed, not allowing yourself to have pleasure when you're allowing your partner to. I think there's also some potential for some grief there. I know it's a hard. It's a really tough one to turn it back around, turn the spotlight back on us and identify what part we play in an obviously very complex situation. It's not all about you. It's. It's both of you together. But being able to take responsibility for our side of the street and see how our own actions, by our own actions, we have played a part in whatever situation we are in and. And being able to grieve for what we've lost in that.
- [39:28]
A
Yeah. So I think, you know, when it comes to being practical, because I get I get that, like just you have to feel the grief of this existential grief. That doesn't feel super helpful. Right. But that is definitely a piece of it. I think going back to trying to make something practical here, I would encourage her to prioritize reconnecting emotionally with her partner first. Even if the sole message had been, we have four kids under six. I think just from that alone we could have said, hey, you and your partner probably need to spend a little bit of time and energy trying to reconnect with each other because that is such a season of survival that you're in. But what I would encourage, encourage her to do is to experiment with different things. So we always say, like, you have to be specific with your partner. You have to teach your partner how you want to be loved. Because your partner's a different person, they want to be loved in different ways. They're going to try to love you in the ways that would feel good for them. So we have to be specific. You cannot tell your partner, I want more emotional intimacy. What does that mean? That doesn't mean anything. That's not setting your partner up for success. So we have to, to get specific. And if she's feeling like, I don't really know, that's okay. But experiment with a few things. So what does it feel like to try to prioritize the two of you having quality time together where you're truly putting your phones away, not turning on the TV and like having a real conversation about how you're feeling? What might it feel like to ask him to give you more compliments or say more like kind things throughout the day? What about asking him to express gratitude for you more often? What about bringing back in more non sexual touch, like holding hands, hugging each other, giving each other kisses, that kind of stuff. So like experiment with different things and see at this season in life, what is it that's helping you feel closer and more connected with him? Cause it sounds like he's really trying. She said, like he does try. He doesn't understand fully. Cause she doesn't understand something.
- [41:31]
B
Yeah, how could he?
- [41:32]
A
But he's trying to you.
- [41:33]
B
Which actually brings me to a slightly different take, possibly a hot take. Oh, on this one. This is again so hard. If we were in session with this person, we would be digging into this. Absolutely. But to me, there is a world here where, sure, more emotional connection is always good. Sure. That might create better initial conditions, just like getting the hormone hormones, better balance might create better initial conditions for desire. But like we said, yeah, sure, she can have all the testosterone in the world, but if she's denying herself pleasure and, you know, bristling at his touch and all this stuff, like all the testosterone in the world isn't going to solve that, that problem. That's an emotional problem, a relational problem. It's not a physical, hormone based problem. What I, I've read, there's a lot of. There's a lot of challenges in this couple's marriage. But what I haven't seen in here is we're just so disconnected. We're ships passing in the night. It feels like he doesn't know me anymore. He doesn't care about me. In fact, they're saying, she's saying, I've told him I need more emotional attention. And he does try. It's not like, oh, he's too busy. He says he's too busy or he can, or we can't afford to go out on date night. I, like, I haven't seen any of those things in here. And I think it's telling what we write. She wrote a long message and, you know, we focus on the things that feel most pertinent. And of the stuff that she's focused on, I would say more emotional attention. Yeah, sure, that's always nice if we, if we can, especially if we're feeling disconnected. But that might not be the main thing here. I mean, I think that to me, me, the main thing here is denying yourself pleasure, making yourself feel like you don't deserve it. I'm creating this dynamic now where the way that sex looks in your relationship, it's something that's for him and it's not for you. So you feel resentful of him. You bristle at his touch because you don't want to show him that. And, you know, any kind of touch coming from you might lead to something more that you don't feel ready for. And why would you feel ready for it? Because you resent the hell out of him, him for wanting it. And, you know, and even, you know, all the stuff tied up in, in the, you know, the idea at least that he just wants you to want porn, want you to want sex, like, like one of the porn stars do. You know, it feels like to me, it's more of all this stuff wrapped up than the emotional connection. Of course, if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, yeah, no, we're super disconnected. I'm just not open. I'm, I'm not. Even if I wanted it, I wouldn't be open to connecting Sexually, because of that, then, yes. Invest in emotional connection. But I think there's also a world in which he may be doing a pretty good job in this area. And it's just these other things that are getting in the way.
- [44:29]
A
Interesting. I wish we knew. I wish we knew. Okay, let me continue. I don't know what to do because we can't afford therapy and our insurance does not cover it. But I know we have some issues. He's done some things that I've recently found out about that really bother me, but he does not understand that completely. He feels like it's in the past past. So why does it still matter? When I asked for space, he said, yeah, but then didn't give me the space. I feel like I'm not totally heard and understood.
- [44:55]
B
Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are we. What are we talking about here?
- [44:57]
A
Like, this is the worst part of this, is not knowing. Like, what are these things here?
- [45:02]
B
Oh, yeah. Hard. A hard right hand turn. Okay. I mean. Okay, wait. One found out about stuff in the past. God, I don't know what that is, but it sounds.
- [45:13]
A
He's done something that I've recently found out about.
- [45:15]
B
Possibly serious. Um, yeah. So, man, it's. So this is something that it really feels like you gotta find a way to be able to process in therapy. That's really the only way that you can do this. I know that you can't afford it. And also, here's the thing. How can you.
- [45:35]
A
How can you not.
- [45:35]
B
How can you not. How can't.
- [45:36]
A
Yeah.
- [45:37]
B
How can this. How can this marriage continue?
- [45:40]
A
I did ask some clarifying questions, and that was part of why we haven't read this in a while, because I was waiting to see if she would respond, but we didn't hear anything back from her. But I will say hot tip for people who can't afford therapy is look for graduate school counseling centers in your area. When I was a grad student, you know, we have to get a certain number of hours to get our license. So we work in these community counseling centers. And because we are student therapists, we're not full therapists yet. The sessions are heavily discounted. I did the vast majority of my sessions for $20 per session. And for some people, you know, we had a sliding scale based on people's financial need. For some people, I did sessions for $5. I wasn't making that money because, like, the counseling center was a lot of. A lot of unpaid hours as a therapist intern. But that is a hot tip to look for.
- [46:32]
B
It's possible if if you seek it out, it's, you know, it may not look the way it looks. Looks for most people where it's like, oh, I just look up therapist in my area and I call them. But yeah, they're, they're, yeah, they're somehow, some way.
- [46:45]
A
I will say, though, that the whole. It's in the past, so why does it still matter? That's not how life works. Like, if you fully. The only time that works is, like, if something happened, you fully went to therapy about it, you fully processed it, you got to a place where you both feel good about it, and then somebody, like, they keep rehashing it over and over and over again or, like, using it as a weapon. Well, you did this. Well, you did this. That is the only time. But it does not sound like that's.
- [47:13]
B
Yeah. Especially when you find out about something. So it's like something happened without my knowledge, and now I'm finding out about it. The other big question is asking for space. What, what, what are we talking about? Are you saying you're just asking for a little bit of space from having sex for a while? Are you talking about, like, a separation? Like, what, what are we talking about here? But again, the bottom line on this one.
- [47:35]
A
Well, let me just read the last little bit from his perspective. I get that it's frustrating to need sex and your wife does not want to do it. I know that it must be really hurtful and aggravating, but I really just am not sure how to go about it. So, again, I think this last little point here that I want to call out is like, she keeps saying, he needs sex.
- [47:54]
B
Yeah, we gotta get rid of that idea.
- [47:56]
A
Replace sex with feeling close to me.
- [47:59]
B
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing.
- [48:00]
A
What if he needs to feel close?
- [48:02]
B
What if he was saying, I, I don't want to feel close to you? Like, I know that I got into this marriage with you because we were close, but I'm actually finding that I have no use for emotional connection. I just want, I just want to have kids with you. I want to live in the same place with you. We share bills and whatnot. But, like, no, I don't, I don't want to go on a date with you anymore. I don't want to talk to you anymore. I, I, I don't know why you need emotional connection so much.
- [48:33]
A
All right, well, we're gonna have to wrap this one up here, but I hope this was useful to listen to. I always think it's interesting to just hear what's going on with other couples. It's that kind of voyeuristic look at what's really going on behind closed bedroom doors. And like I said at the beginning, I think so many people can really resonate with a lot of the dynamics that have come up with this one. So I hope that you've learned something useful within this, found something to talk about with your partner.
- [49:02]
B
I hope you're able to find a grad student therapy center and able to get some help.
- [49:08]
A
Yeah. And, yeah, I just want to send all the love and compassion to this woman. It takes a lot of vulnerability to reach out and send a message like this, to ask for help, to acknowledge the truth of what's really going on. So I know we gave her some tough love throughout this. Again, just truly coming from a place of love, of just believing she deserves so much more.
- [49:27]
B
Yeah, we want you to get the help that you need, which is why we want to be able to talk about it.
- [49:32]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So I would also recommend that this couple listen to our dry spell episode, too. We have a great one about how to get out of a dry spell, which, you know, she didn't even use that word specifically, but it has some really specific, concrete, step by step tips for how to reconnect with your partner. And I think that would be really useful. So we are sending this original person all the love in the world. Please reach back out to us because we want to know some of the other things, too. But I hope you've gotten some tips that will help. And if you are interested in sharing your story and having us break it down like this, please always feel free to reach out to us on Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Zander. Zander is with an X. We'd love to hear it. All right, well, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thanks so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release you new episodes every Thursday.