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E259: Sex and Intimacy After Kids: What Actually Works (From Parents Who've Figured It Out)
01:03:40
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- [00:00]
A
At some point you have to decide, are you going to keep proving why it can't work or start figuring out how it can? Because one path keeps you stuck exactly where you are, and the other leads to a relationship that actually feels alive again. And you both deserve that. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.
- [00:32]
B
And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.
- [00:39]
A
Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. This episode is for the sleep deprived, the time starved, the diaper changing, homework, helping parents who still want to keep the spark alive. We asked our parenting community about their top tips for other parents. So we're going to be reading these real responses from other moms and dads, pulling out the practical, doable ideas you can try tonight or this weekend, and giving you some honest encouragement for making intimacy a priority again, even with kids in the house. Short, simple, realistic, this episode is full of tiny rituals, surprising hacks, and hard won wisdom that actually works for busy parents. But before we get into it, I think we kind of need to address the elephant in the room.
- [01:42]
B
Or the elephant in the room for some people.
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A
The elephant that. Or maybe it's the elephant that's not in the room. Why do we these two jokers.
- [01:53]
B
What the. What the hell do we think we're doing?
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A
These two jokers who don't have kids. Why do we talk to parents and give them tips and advice for how to keep the spark alive? Like, we don't have kids ourselves. We don't know what it's like. We can't relate. Late. Who the do we think we are? I mean, honestly, we get. We get asked it in that way very often.
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B
I mean, those people probably are not going to like our advice anyway. The. The. Who do you think you are?
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A
You think you are?
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B
Yeah, who do you think you are? Like, you know, we're, you know, we're probably not for you anyway, but.
- [02:26]
A
Well, maybe we can. We'll speak to the people who are like, well, yeah, that's just like a little. It's a little eye raise. Like, really guys? Like, I don't know about this. Yeah, maybe you saw the. The title of this episod had a Little eyebrow raise. Like, really, guys? Okay, so let's talk about it. Okay. First and foremost, the number one reason why we talk to parents and give advice for parents is because our community begged us to. I remember crystal clear having this conversation with our friend Amy Kiefer, of herself and expecting and empowered. I think our. Our audiences overlap a lot, so I'm sure a lot of people listening know her. I remember talking to her and saying, amy, we have been getting so many requests from parents to make content. Like, people will, like, watch one of our reels and say, like, well, how does this work for parents? Or what can parents do? We were also getting a lot of requests to talk about how do I talk to my kid about sex? And Amy was even, like, had. Had sent me some questions about, you know, stuff, like parenting related stuff, too, that had come from her community. We did, like, podcast interviews with them, all kinds of stuff. And I was like, I feel like we can't do this. Like, we don't have kids ourselves. I'm kind of. Honestly, I'm a little nervous to wade into this territory. And I remember her telling me, like, you have to do this. Not, not in a. Like, you have to. You better do this or else. But I just remember her saying, like, vanessa, you have so many tools, so much wisdom, so much empathy and compassion. Like, and nobody else is doing this. Like, we need you. The parents need you. The truth is that they're just. There aren't very sex therapists out there. We are far and few between. There are more of us. Like, you know, we're growing slowly, but there just really aren't that many of us. And, you know, people would reach out to us and say, well, do you have any recommendations for accounts that are just like yours, but their parents? And I literally don't. I don't have any recommendations. I don't know anybody else who's doing what we're doing. But specifically, you know, for parents. And I think both Xander and I, we are both natural helpers. Like, when somebody asks us for help, when somebody, you know, and especially when we feel like there's something that we could do to help, it is like, we want to help. We want to jump in and do what we can. And like, even, you know, I don't want to make this whole episode like, about. About this. But, like, even when we started talking about parenting stuff and we started getting some blowback about it of people saying, like, you don't know what you're talking about, like, you're not parents, there's no way you can ever understand. Like, I remember having another conversation with AM to be like, they're cranky. They're mad. I don't know. I don't know if I want to do this anymore. And she's like, you know, we're like, we parents. All that you're feeling right now is that we parents are just struggling so hard. And it's really easy to take all that overwhelm and frustration and anxiety and just complete, like, up to here. It's so easy to take all of that energy and, like, project it out onto other people. But, like, keep going. Please keep going. So we did keep going. But, I mean, the second reason, which is just as important, is that, you know, I feel comfortable talking about this topic because I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist with a master's degree in counseling. Like, I have literally been trained, it's part of my degree, to work with kids and families. I had to spend thousands of hours.
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B
Yeah, just to get your license.
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A
Just to get my license.
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B
Yeah. I mean, the state of California recognizes you as a marriage and family therapist. You've gone through all the training, all the qualifications, and part of that is thousands and thousands of hours actually working with a whole range of people in the marriage and family, you know, individuals, partners, couples, and children.
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A
Yeah. I mean, and you, like, you're just along for the ride.
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B
I am along for the ride. I. I will gladly admit it, but it is kind of interesting because, I mean, this was the very thing that my blockage to even getting involved in any of our business at the beginning was. It was like, you know, because I've had a front row seat to Vanessa getting to where she is today. You know, I met Vanessa before she went back to grad school, and so I watched her go through grad school. I watched her get through grad school faster than anybody in her program ever had and get her license faster than anybody ever had and blow through those hours. Oh, my God, it was. It was insane, like, what you were doing. I mean, this is just like how passionate Vanessa is, how dead set she was on get on getting into sex therapy. And, you know, part of that was getting her license, which was like, you know, you were. You were like going to, like, you were going to, like, a school totally on the other end of the city every day to basically be like the school therapist, you know, and, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of those thousands of hours were really hard won hours, so to speak. So I watched Vanessa go through all this and study for the Exam, because it's not easy. The licensing exam. It's like a real thing. It's like getting licensed to be a doctor or any of those other things. You have to really understand how to do this. And so when Vanessa wanted me to get involved, I was like, well, who the hell am I to be doing that? Like, I just saw you put your blood, sweat and tears into all of this. And I haven't done that. But on the flip side, I think that it is bring. It is bringing that every day. Non trained. I mean, at this point, I have a lot of unofficial training. Nothing official. No, no, no. State boards recognize me. But other than official. Cool dude. But. But yeah, no, I mean, it's like, you know, parents aren't professionals. Parents are just everyday people figuring out how to be parents. Right. And I'm, I'm, you know, the partner of you. I'm figuring out how to be a good husband. I'm figuring out how to be in a relationship. I'm, you know, I'm figuring out all this stuff. And I think that it's really helpful to also have the perspective of someone that is a bit more of the layman, the everyday person.
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A
But. Yeah, but to be fair, like, if I didn't have this degree, if we were just two, you know, regular dude and regular dudette, like, we would not talk about it.
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B
Yeah. We wouldn't at all gotten into this.
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A
Yeah. So it's really just because of that, you know, that training that I have, it's literally a part of my training. And I think it's really important for people to recognize that it is not a therapist's job to have the exact same life experiences as their clients. We are actually trained as therapists to put aside our personal experiences because that can taint therapy if we think like, oh, I've been through that. I have those same experience. I know what you're going through. I know what you're talking about.
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B
Yeah, it's like my way or the highway.
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A
Yeah. I can get in the way of it. So as therapists, like, we treat tons and tons of clients who have experiences that we don't share. It's very rare, actually that I've had like the same experience as somebody that I'm working with.
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B
And just like most doctors who are, who are not like family practice doctors, but like specialists, most specialist medical professionals have never had the thing that they specialize in. Like most cancer doctors have never had the type of cancer that they treat. You know, most. I don't know, whatever. Like, I'm trying to think of some really specialist doctor. Like, you know, most, like gastroenterologists, like, aren't dealing with ibs, for example. So. Yeah, it's. It's. It's weird how in so many. In. In so many areas, we want someone that has the life experience, but then in other areas, we don't want that.
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A
Yeah, I mean, I think even the even more simple example is, like, there are tons of, like, pediatricians and teachers that don't have kids too.
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B
Oh, yeah. I think a teacher is such a good example because it's, like, directly working with kids. Honestly, being a teacher, it is really the profession of being a teacher. Given the way that hours work and, like, the complete lack of flexibility of that job, it makes it very hard to be a parent, especially a female parent, like a mother. Yeah. So, like, there are a lot of female teachers, especially that don't have kids or don't have kids yet, or have decided not to have kids and still teach kids. You know, I've never heard of someone being like, ooh, I don't want to send my kid to this person's class, because they don't get what it's like to have kids.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Have you ever heard that?
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A
Like, yeah, that's wild.
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B
It's like, well, no. This person chose this profession and deals with kids every single day, year after year after year. They probably know what they're doing.
- [11:40]
A
And I will finally just to, like, wrap this up and, you know, then we'll get into the tips. Like, I do want to say I feel proud of the way that we talk to parents. I. You know, like, we are very clear that we will never, ever understand what it's like. We will never know what it's like to be in your shoes. And we are not even gonna attempt to pretend that we know what it's like. I think we have a really deep respect for and empathy for how hard it is for parents to keep the spark alive when you are being pulled in a million different directions, when you are doing this incredibly overwhelming job, when you are, you know, battling for lack of time, lack of privacy, lack of energy. I think even just seeing my sister become a parent for the first time, you know, these last few months has given us even more respect for, like, holy shit, this is the hardest fucking job in the world. And even if we did have kids of our own, I think that we would still be really careful about not bringing our own personal experience too much into it, like, assuming, oh, well, this works for our kids. This is what works for Our family. This is what works for us as parents. So therefore, it should work for you.
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B
And if it doesn't, something must be wrong with you. Yeah, I actually don't want that kind of advice. That sucks.
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A
Yeah, I see, like, especially online, on social media, like, I see a ton of parent on parent shaming of, like, oh, my God, you do that. Ew. You don't do that. Like, a good parent wouldn't do that. A good parent does do this. You know, like, it's. There's so much judgment that goes on around. Like, you know, this is what works for my family, so you should be doing it, too. So I think in a lot of ways, actually, us not being parents is beneficial because we don't come into it with that judgment.
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B
Yeah. We don't have any baggage around it.
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A
Yeah. So just wanted to, like, share that. Up top. But with this episode, we thought it would be nice for you to hear directly from other parents. So we turned to the parents in our community over on Instagram. If you're not following us, please do. We're at Vanessa and Xander. Xander's with an ex. We do a lot of, like, polls and stuff to like, create these episodes. So we love hearing from you on Instagram. So we asked our community, like, if you're a parent, what tricks, tips, techniques have you learned from us about how to keep your relationship and your sex life flourishing, pushing, or, like, what are the specific ways that you have tweaked our advice to make it work for your unique relationship, your unique family? Do you have a pep talk or maybe some tough love for other parents? Especially the parents who feel like it's just not possible to keep the spark alive as parents.
- [14:14]
B
It's. It's. I love. I love hearing from people in our. In our community about how they have taken a good nugget of advice or the general concept and then adjusted it to meet their specific relationship, their specific family, their situation? Because I really think that there's two types of people in the world. If I can grossly simplify things, there are people especially. And this is just exacerbated on social media, where we have these little tiny soundbite clips of, like, you should do this. There's people that hear a tip and go, well, that won't work for me swipe or that won't work for me comment. That won't work for me. You obviously have never had blah, blah, blah, blah. Or there's people that hear something and go, hmm, that's interesting. I wonder how I could make that Work for me. And we really. I think our community is full of people on that ladder. The how can I make that work for me? Category, I mean, because that shows that you're open minded, you're curious, and you want to find things that work for you. If you're stuck in the I can only hear a tip, and it has to apply one for one to me for me to listen to it. It's like you're going to struggle to find advice. You're going to end up with very narrow, specific pieces of advice from people whose lives look exactly like you, whose experiences look exactly like you. And you're not ever going to kind of see how other people live or operate or think about what else could be possible for you.
- [15:51]
A
I also think there's something to be said about if you see something and you're like, that is not gonna work for me. Cool, just go to the next one. Not everything. And that's exactly the same for this episode too. We're gonna go over a ton of different tips. If you hear one, like, I would encourage you to go into, like, here, listen to each one and think, is there a way this could work for us? Is there? You know, if I'm. If I'm getting this knee jerk reaction of like, I can't do that. We can't do that. Like, ask yourself, is there a way we could. Is there a way we could tweak it or adjust it? But if you have that curiosity and you're like, no, like, that just is not gonna work for us for this season of life for our kids, that's fine. Like, it. Not everything has to work for you. I think that, like, the way that we approach our content and, you know, this episode is like, here's a fucking buffet of things. And just like in a buffet, like, you walk through and you say, oh, that one looks good to me. Oh, I don't want to try that one. That I'm not sure. Let me put a little bit on my plate and I'll try it.
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B
Ooh.
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A
That I definitely know I'm gonna like, you know, it's like. So we just have to, like, we have to have a level of discernment of going through things. But yeah, if you see something and you're like, I don't even want to try that. Don't. You don't have to.
- [17:03]
B
Yeah. I think the best way to evaluate it is try to delay the could this work for me? Question. And first say, just. First think, is this. Am I curious about this? Does this sound Exciting or interesting, this tip. And then, you know, not only the tip, but, like, what the promise of the tip is. Oh, you should do X, Y, Z. Because then you will get abc, right? If you're like, ooh, yeah, I want that. That sounds good. Or exciting to me. If I follow it at face value, that's going to be a struggle to implement. But how could I make this work for me? So I think a lot of people just go immediately to, oh, here's someone that I trust, and they're giving me a tip. I should do that. That's going to be good for me. Without even thinking, like, do I even want to do this? Does this even sound good to me? So, yeah, I think it's so important to separate those two things. Let's take the practicality out of it entirely, because I think it's so easy to get stuck in that and just go like, oh, God, no, this could never work. But it's like, no, like, let's get excited about. Okay, yeah, I would love to do that. Making out every night sounds awesome. I like the idea of that.
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A
Spoiler alert.
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B
I like the idea of that. But, you know, and then you go, okay. All right, now let's think about implementing.
- [18:23]
A
All right. I am loving Cozy Earth lately because they just won me some major brownie points with my sister. I gifted her one of their new robes and she is so obsessed with it. Literally just yesterday, she was, like, losing her mind. Losing her mind. This is the best robe I've ever had. Thank you so much. Her husband's trying to steal it from her.
- [18:43]
B
Yeah, she won't let him wear it.
- [18:44]
A
Both of my parents were like, can we get one of those robes, too? So Cozy Earth, they're just knocking it out of the park with all of their new products. We have loved Cozy Earth for a long time because their sheets, their towels are incredible. Their clothing. We both have the jogger sets and really love them. They're super comfy. And I mean, literally. It's in the name Cozy Earth. Like, it's very cozy. They also have these clogs that have a great cushioned footbed. They're really soft, like, easy slip ons. We're big slipper people around the house, so, I mean, we haven't tried a product from Cozy Earth that we haven't absolutely loved.
- [19:20]
B
Yeah, that's true.
- [19:22]
A
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- [20:38]
B
bed like it should be more than pretty much anywhere.
- [20:40]
A
It should be a saf place for you to sleep. So we love our Birch mattress. I do know of course mattresses are a personal thing, right? Like you can't know if you're going to like it unless you sleep on it. But Birch makes this really easy. They have 120 night risk free trial. So they ship their mattress straight to you in a really convenient box. Just pops right open. Super easy to set up and you've got 120 nights to check it out. And they are giving us an incredible deal exclusively for Pillow Talks listeners. We want all of our list listeners to enjoy a deep restful night's sleep because also when you have a good night's sleep, you're more likely to have more intimacy. The recent study just came out. 14% more likely and they are having a Memorial Day sale. Go to birchliving.com pillow talks for 27% off site wide. That's birchliving.com pillow talks and get 27% off site wide birchliving.com pillow talk. So let's get to our responses from parents. There was by far and away and number one winner, the most commonly referenced thing.
- [21:54]
B
Surprise, surprise. It's also one of the most hated things I know.
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A
I'm so glad to see this. I'm doing a little dance in my chair right now. If you, if you're not watching the video on YouTube, it was scheduling sex.
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B
Duh.
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A
By far and away number one. Somebody said you guys really changed our minds about it. We are big fans of scheduling sex. I think it gets such a bad rap. People think that it means like, oh, her sex life is dead. Oh, we have to schedule it. But the reality is it's not about scheduling it with the same level of dread that you schedule your dentist appointments. We actually don't use the word scheduled sex. We just talk about being intentional. So the exact same way that you plan a date night, like, hey, it's. It's like this acknowledgment that we are busy. Life is busy. Things don't just happen spontaneously, especially when you have a family that's, like, full and busy and chaotic. With date night, it's this intentionality of time for you and me is important. We want to carve it out. We want to make sure it happens. So let's put it on the calendar. Let's make a plan for it, and then we get excited about it. Like, we look at that as such a good thing. If your partner came to you and said, hey, do you want to have a date night with me? I made a reservation. I'm going to put it on the calendar for Friday night. Does that work for you? You would be so touched. Like, oh, my God, you were thinking of me, and you wanted to spend time with me, and you made an effort. Right. So if we do that with emotional intimacy, why do we treat physical intimacy so different? It's the same thing. It's this recognition that life is busy. It's a recognition that we are important to each other. We want to make sure that time, you know, we continue to have time that we, you know, make space for each other in our busy lives. Like, why? Yeah, why is it any different?
- [23:46]
B
Yeah, I think that there's this. This fallacy or this mistaken idea that, oh, when things are better between us, when things are easier between us, then we'll just start having more sex. But it's actually the opposite. And I feel like this really deserves this entire own podcast episode. We were just starting to read a really interesting study yesterday. I haven't read the entire thing, so I'm just gonna go over just, like, the super high level. But basically, it was. Some researchers followed couples. I believe it was over four years, and they found something really, really interesting. And it was that there was a directional relationship. The more sex that you have, the happier, the more satisfied you are with your relationship. It's not the other way around. So there's like, you can find a correlation between two things where it's like, oh, when one increases, the other increases, but also when the other increases, the other increases. So it's like, we don't know what the direction is. That's what a lot of initial research gets at Is like, oh, two things are related to each other, but we don't know the direction of the relationship. In this, they tested that like, oh, does one cause the other or does the other cause the one? And they found that, yes, the more sex that you have, the happier you are with your relationship. It's not the other way around. I think a lot of people thought, oh, well, people who are generally more satisfied with their relationships or happier with their relationship are going to have more sex. So as the relationship improves, the sex life improves. But they did not find that. They found the exact opposite. I think a lot of people go, oh, well, it doesn't like, it does. I don't want to work on my sex life right now because things are bad between us. And ironically, it's. Things will are much more likely to get good between you if you work on your sex life first. And scheduling sex literally plugs that hole. It solves that problem. And so it's not surprising to me that that is the most common response. It is a hated idea. People don't like the idea of it, but once they start doing it, it's undeniable what the result is.
- [26:03]
A
Yeah. And so with scheduling sex, the key really is how you schedule it. It makes all the difference in the world. So we actually have an entire podcast episode breaking down, like, exactly how to schedule sex the right way. I think this is probably what this person was referring to with, like, you really changed our minds about it. So definitely scroll back. It was just within the last couple of months, so it's a relatively recent episode. So go check that one out. Okay. Next, we had some tips about communication. One parent said, we try not to watch your content alone. We share it with each other, watch it together, and then talk about it. Which I was also so glad to see because that's really the, the whole intent behind how we approach our content. Like, we try to create content that opens up conversations between partners, especially over on Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander again. You know, I think it's. It's so much easier to send your partner a funny reel and like have that open up a conversation. Then to have to go up to your partner and be like, we have to talk and we need to talk about our sex life. Right?
- [27:11]
B
Yeah. And I think taking that a step further. And I see, I see here somebody else mentioned this, which is awesome. So I'm just going to say it, taking that a step further, I think that when you start watching any kind of self development stuff, and you know what, we Do I think it's considered self development? Relationship development, Any kind of thing where it's, like, requires us to work on something about ourselves or together. It's easy to start watching that alone and be like, oh, God, I want that, but I can't have that because my partner isn't working on it. Or like, oh, they're not gonna want to. And it's just like, the more that you watch on your own is you're gonna actually start building resentment towards your partner because you're either creating a story in your head, oh, they won't do this or not. They're never gonna do this. They're not open to this idea. Or like, you know, I. So it's sort of like resentment without your partner even being aware. Or maybe your partner is aware you are trying to show them stuff. They're not into it. So then you're like, oh, I'm just gonna keep watching on my own. And, you know, I'm not trying to tell you to not watch our stuff alone, but I do think that if you are kind of like binging certain content because you want it really bad and your partner's not on board, it's. You're actually driving a wet drop in between you two, which can be a problem. So, yeah, someone else wrote like, yeah, we don't let our resentment build. And I think that that is washing our stuff together is really helpful for that. But also, you know, I think that can be applied to any element of. Of your relationship is understanding that resentment is actually, if I'm feeling resentment, that's a me problem. It's not a Vanessa problem. Resentment is me playing something over and over and over without checking in with my partner about it. And that's where the. The emotion of resentment comes from, is me being upset or holding something in or not being happy with something and not communicating it. And so being in agreement and understanding of what resentment actually is. Because I think so many people get this wrong. They're like, oh, I'm resentful of you because you did xyz. And no, you can be upset with someone for them doing xyz. You're. If you're resentful about something, it means that you have not been sharing something with your partner. You've not been open, you've not been honest, you've not been transparent with them about something. And so I think that once we understand that, we go, oh, so it's actually us against resentment together. Us as a couple. So, like, if I'm feeling something, I need to communicate with my partner about that.
- [29:43]
A
Okay. Another parent said, we learned from you guys to talk about sex a lot. Just acknowledging where we are, even if we're not happy with the reality. Yeah. I think this is one of the most practical and doable tips that we give to parents is just. And really any couple who's in a dry spell, regardless of if you're parents or not, is just acknowledging what is going on. Because so often what happens is people feel embarrassed that they're in a dry spell, that they're feeling disconnected and they just want to bury their heads in the sand. They don't want to have to acknowledge what's going on because it makes it feel like, even more painful to have to acknowled. But when you don't acknowledge, just leaves your partner spinning out wondering what's going on.
- [30:31]
B
Like, do they care? Have they noticed?
- [30:33]
A
Yeah. Do they care at all? Like, they do. They realize how long it's been. And we can all, like, create pretty crazy stories in our head of what's going on. So even if, like, let's say you're in a really challenging season of life and even if, you know, like, like, nothing can change right now. I am at 150%. I don't have the capacity for anything else. Like, we've got XYZ on our plates. Like, this is not gonna change in the next month or two month or whatever it is. Just acknowledging to your partner makes all the difference in the world. So it can be something like, hey, I just wanna acknowledge. I know it's been a while and I'm really bummed about that because I miss you and I miss us. And I also know, like, we're just in a really toug and there's just not the space for us to connect the way I know we both want to. But I just want you to know, like, I'm excited for us to get out of this season. Or even if it's something like, I'm, you know, I'm doing X, Y and Z to try to get out of this tough place so that we can connect more. You know, just something like that, like, it truly makes such a big difference. Okay, next up, we had some tips in the emotional intimacy realm. So one parent said, we offer acknowledgement to each other just like, compliments, and it goes a long way. Your partner wants to feel seen.
- [31:59]
B
Yup.
- [31:59]
A
Oh, my God. This is one of those things. I was just listening to another podcast episode and I can't remember who it was, but somebody was like, life is lived in the details. I think so many of us, we think about the bigger picture things, the grand gestures, like the big moment. But life is truly actually, maybe I'll put my own spin on it. Like life is lived in the simple moments or intimacy is created in those small, simple moments. Like that's really what intimacy is all about, is like these little things that we can do on a daily basis. And something like giving your partner a compliment. How easy is that? A compliment is free. It takes you like three seconds to say it, but you feel good. Like it feels good for you to say it. It feels super good for your partner to hear it. Like, who, who has not had the experience of like you're so overwhelmed, you're exhausted, you're just like, feel like a tiny little husk of a human being and your partner like, or somebody, like somebody gives you a compliment and you're like, I needed that, I needed that so badly. Like just a few little words can just make your day, totally change your energy, make you feel completely different and like, like it's so easy, right?
- [33:19]
B
Yeah. I think that we fall, so many of us fall into the trap in relationships of getting into it almost feeling transactional. Like we've split up.
- [33:32]
A
Oh, like you feel like business partners.
- [33:34]
B
Yeah. Like we split up running the household and the kids and all this stuff. And you do this, I do that. That's my area. That's your area. And like it's just gotta get done and we don't acknowledge or compliment the other person for doing that. And it's. And I think it's, it's so easy to fall into that trap in relationships. But when you make this parallel into like, like a workplace or like a, like a company, I feel like it's. You start to kind of see how crazy this is. It's like imagine working for a company where the company culture is such that you get zero acknowledgment or compliment from co workers or your manager for doing your responsibilities. And it's like the only time you ever get possibly the possibility of a compliment is at your year end review. If you have like far exceeded expectations and done something that's like so above and beyond your job responsibilities. Like if your manager goes, all right, so welcome to like our kick ass company. So like when, like it's your coworker's job to do stuff for you and do not thank them, do not acknowledge them doing anything. That's their job. How dare you say thank you to them. How dare you, like, you know, how Dare you appreciate them that that's their job. We save appreciation only for like the end of the year. Like, you would not be very excited about working there, right? Who's going to be like, oh, I love this. I.
- [35:09]
A
What you're. I hate your creepy voice.
- [35:12]
B
He was just like, oh, my God,
- [35:13]
A
this too over the top.
- [35:15]
B
This lights me up. This level of high expectations. Maybe there's a couple people that would be like, oh, yeah, no, don't. Don't compliment me unless I really deserve it. But like, no, most people be like, that's crazy. I'm not allowed to express any kind of appreciation for my co workers, like, supporting me doing my job. Like, yeah, why would you do it? But like, so many of us are doing that in our relationships and I,
- [35:41]
A
you know, we, we say all the time, there's nothing lonelier than choosing to spend your life with somebody but winding up feeling invisible to them. And I think that's what compliments help counteract. Counteract. That's the word. That's what compliments counteract. It's like this feeling of like, I see you. I see. And especially when you're overwhelmed and overloaded, it's like I see how hard you're working. I see what you're doing. I see the ways you're taking care of, of our family and our kids and me. Like, I see you. And I just think that that's the most essential human need and desire. So don't underestimate the compliment.
- [36:17]
B
And I mean, even, it's fine to even set yourself up for compliments sometime. The other day, yesterday, you were. I had, I had. Well, no, I mean, like Vanessa, I'd been sick for a while and then Vanessa was sick for a while and like, like, you know, I would have not noticed this because like, I had been doing a bunch, you know, I'd been doing a bunch of cleaning, like while you were sick and on the couch and stuff. But I went, I went surfing yesterday morning and Vanessa wasn't sure how well she was going to be feeling in the morning. And I got back and she had like, you know, she had ended up walking the dogs. I was, I was going to do that later. I, earlier, I committed to. I would do. Do it so that she wouldn't have to. But then she was feeling better, so she did it and I thanked her for that. And then she was like, also, just so you know, I cleaned up the kitchen as well. So she set herself up and I was. And so I heard that and went, oh, my God, you did like, thank you so much. And you know, because it's like we don't always notice every little thing, especially around the house, you know, because like, you know, for us it's like, I'll clean up around the kitchen, Vanessa will clean up around the kitchen. We don't really have a set. Like, like it's some one person's responsibility to do that one. And so yeah, it's totally fine to, if you worked hard on something, make sure your partner knows. You don't have to be like, you'd better thank me for it. But like, you know, point it out because it's sometimes it's easy for us to not notice those things.
- [37:45]
A
Okay, next up, another parent said making a date night happen weekly. Even if the date night is a walk to get the mail without the kids, it doesn't have to be big, it just has to be something special. Yeah, I think date nights are so important. Again, it's, it's just all about that intentionality. It's like, I want us to have quality time together. And this is a big reason why we put together the Spark, which is our monthly membership for couples. It is the biggest, no brainer of anything we've ever offered. It is $9 per month. Like, what else can you get for $9 a month these days? But every month we send you one emotional intimacy like date night idea and one physical int Date night idea.
- [38:29]
B
Plus a whole bunch of conversation starters.
- [38:30]
A
Yeah, conversation starters. We have a sex position of the month. We've got some other fun stuff in there. But I think like those two date nights are really valuable. We design a lot of them to be like, so many of them can be of the emotional intimacy. Date nights can be done at home. Like, you know, it's not a big fancy, elaborate like go on a week long getaway, you know, anything like that. They're like simple things. But we take that the mental load off of your plate of having to figure out like, oh my God, I don't know what to do for date night. We, we deliver straight to your inbox so you can go straight to VM therapy.com spark if you want to check that out. And we will also put the link for you in the show notes. Okay. Another parent said all your conversations about mental load have been extremely helpful chore play for the win.
- [39:16]
B
If you're gonna do chores, you might as well make it sexy.
- [39:19]
A
You might as well. Yeah. We have done a couple of different podcast episodes about mental load. I feel like we should redo one because we have One that's like. It's episode four. It was one of the very first ones. I'm sure the. The audio quality has been improved since then, but. Yeah. Research shows that couples who share chores in a way that feels equitable and fair to their unique relationship, those couples have way more sex, so.
- [39:45]
B
And the couples that have way more sex are happier with their relationship.
- [39:49]
A
So I would definitely recommend checking out those mental load episodes. Okay, I'm put. I have a couple of tips here that I've categorized under the little things. Yeah. Because I said that earlier, like intimacy. I gotta. I've gotta come up with my little. My own little catchphrase. Intimacy is in the little details. Intimacy is in the little things. Life is. Life has lived in the little things. I don't know. We'll work on it. That one person. Oh, this is what you spoiled earlier. I love your nightly makeout ritual. So we also have a podcast episode about this.
- [40:19]
B
We do.
- [40:20]
A
And some of our most viral social content ever has been about this. So Xander and I make out every night before bed for at least 10 seconds. The rule is the tongues have to touch.
- [40:33]
B
Yeah. Except when one of us is sick.
- [40:34]
A
Yeah. We have not been doing that lately. But we started doing that because we realized we were really only making out like during sex itself or like immediately in the lead up to sex. And I was like, I miss making out. Like, why do we never do this anymore? So it's just this little tiny thing again. Some nights if we're exhausted and tired, it takes 10 second seconds. Like, tell me you don't have 10 seconds in your day for your partner. But it's just that little thing that like, keeps the spark alive between the two of us. And this next tip goes hand in hand with that one. Engage in more non sexual touch. We learned from you guys that it keeps the intimacy alive and keeps the bristle reaction away. So, yeah, same thing. Like, the bristle reaction is our name for when, like, your partner tries to touch you and you feel your whole body tense up. And it's typically the result of, of like you're. You guys only touching each other when you want sex. So you start to get really on guard. We also have a podcast episode about this. You start to get really on guard because it feels like touch has a motive. Like your partner's just trying to get something from you rather than trying to genuinely connect with you. Okay, some next tips under timing, which obviously is a huge challenge when you're a parent. One parent said, we established a parent bedtime once Our kids were old enough, we started to train them that after 9pm they need to text or knock on the door.
- [42:01]
B
I love this one because this is some of the most pushback we get is, oh, well, we just cannot ever have sex because we have kids in the house or because we have teens in the house or whatever. You know, they're up at all hours. Yeah, we weirdly, I feel like, get even more pushback from parents of teenagers about sex where it's just like, I think we just can never have sex unless we are on a solo vacation or once our kids get out of the house, like go to college. And it's like, that's just not a workable solution unless both of you are like, yeah, great, I don't really like sex and I don't want to have it for five more, six more years or however long it's going to be. Right. Like, it doesn't make any sense. But I, so many people, I, we just cannot. They're always up, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yeah, I get that, I get that, that gut reaction. It just can't work. But here's a great example of finding a way to make something work. You know, I'm not saying, I don't think these parents are necessarily saying, oh yeah, no, we are just like fucking every, every single night once the clock hits 9pm but it's creating a system that gives you some freedom to make some choices around what you're doing rather than like, oh yeah, well, my kids just bust in all the time. Or oh, well, they assume that if the door is locked, then they're assuming that we're having sex immediately, even if that's not what's happening. So we can never lock the door. You know, I, I like that. It makes sense. I mean.
- [43:29]
A
Yeah. And another parent said early bedtime for the kids so that we have alone time.
- [43:33]
B
Yeah, I think a lot of parents kind of underestimate, especially when the kids are younger is like, yeah, this, you can kind of set the schedule that you want to rather than like, oh, well, oh, you know, most, most kids are going to bed at nine now, so we have to do nine o'. Clock. Like, I've heard from a lot of parents and I've definitely, you know, I've had some like, parent, sorry, co workers in the past who have been parents who are like, oh yeah, no, we put our kids to bed at seven and it seems crazy in the summer when it's five o', clock, when it's, when it's still light, but like it's a game changer for us. And like, you know, like kids are just, they're creatures of habit and pattern. And once you get it might be hard to get into that habit or onto that pattern, but once you do, it's just. That is what it is.
- [44:21]
A
Okay. Another parent said your transition ritual idea, giving each other some alone time to decompress helped us feel more relaxed around each other and more open to sex. So this whole idea is that like most people are trying to make the transition from being in like mom mode or dad mode, like go mode all day long and you think you're supposed to transition straight into a sexy time partner mode. You are never going to do that. That is too rough of a 180. That's too hard of a transition to. So we think there needs to be like a transition in between. That's the power of the transition ritual is something that you do in between where you come home to yourself first before you are able to connect with your partner. And I do think that this tends to be more important for moms than it does for dads. I think as like, as women, we just really need that moment to come back to ourselves. And we are all about making this practical. Like I'm not saying take an hour long bubble bath, you know, that's not going to be realistic on most nights. But even if it's like your parent or your parent, your partner handles bedtime with the kids or your partner takes the kids outside so you have like 60 seconds to sit in your closet, right? Like whatever it is that feels realistic in your life. But just having a little tiny bit of time to yourself first can be really valuable.
- [45:42]
B
I think that this one, this is a really interesting area I have hate we don't talk about this a lot because it's like there are plenty of people out there that are like, oh, all technology are bad. It used to always, you know, it was so much better back in the past. But I do think that this is one area where this was far less of a problem before smartphones and before remote work. And so for the most part you had to have a transition whether you were riding public transit it or driving in your car, maybe you're just listening to music or you know, something like that. Like that is a transition in and of itself. Like you have this kind of built in thing and then, you know, now that we are in this, you know, always on technology, smartphone era, many people don't have that as much anymore. You might be riding the train back home and still working on your phone or dealing with messages or emails or. Or whatever. Or you go home, you might have a little transition issue, but you're getting home at 5pm and pulling your computer out and doing more work. So you're kind of like, it's so much for that transition that you just had because now you're back into work mode. And so, yeah, I think that this is one where we need to take some notes from how that used to be done of like, oh, yeah, so what would my life actually look like? Like 10 years ago? God, is it. Or even is it more now, like more than 10 years ago, before we had smartphones? God, like 15, 20 years ago, what would this have looked like? Like, if I were doing generally what I'm doing. Oh, yeah, I would be working out of the house. I would have been driving home. So think about, how can I. You don't have to. You don't have to. To mirror that one for one. But it's like, oh, yeah, how can I bring some of that transition back that I used to have have? And I think you'll be a lot happier.
- [47:35]
A
Okay. Another parent said, Fuck first has been a total game changer for us. So this is. This is probably the content that we've gotten the most pushback from parents about. If you haven't heard about this, Fuck first, we did not come up with this. This is Dan Savage's idea, but the whole idea of it that his original idea was that to have sex before you go out to date night or an event. Because the reality is, like, when we go out or, you know, we get full. If you drink, you're tipsy or drun. Like you're tired, you get home and like, that is the worst time to try to have sex. And we've sort of taken that and expanded it to say, like, prioritize intimacy as early in the day as you
- [48:15]
B
can, whether it's a date night or not. Because if you're thinking about doing it later, might I interest you in doing it sooner?
- [48:24]
A
Because, yeah, crawling into bed at the end of the night, that is the worst time to get yourself, like, super excited and jazzed about it. Like, it's just too difficult.
- [48:32]
B
And ultimately it's just increases the chances that you actually do do it. So. Or, you know, it's either it's moving you into a higher likelihood of having sex or guaranteeing that you have sex. And like we said, couples who have more sex do end up feeling happier and better about their relationship, having more Satisfaction. So, yeah, like, why do you want to gamble with that? If you're going. If you think you're going to do it later, do it, do it now.
- [49:02]
A
So for, like, specifically for first, if you want to try this out as a lot of parents, like, how am I supposed to do that with. With kids in the house? This is totally unrealistic. And then it's funny because there will be, like, anytime we post this on Instagram, then there will be parents hopping in. Be like, I have 17 kids and I do this.
- [49:19]
B
Like, 17, wow.
- [49:21]
A
It's always apparent with a lot of kids, these, like, fights going back and forth.
- [49:25]
B
I wonder why they have a lot of kids. They probably have a lot of. Of sex.
- [49:28]
A
True. Okay, so some tips to make it work if you're a parent is, obviously, this is going to depend on your kids ages and, you know, what your resources are and all of that. But have the babysitter come over and take the kids to the park so you can have. Tell them, like, you know, we don't want them to get upset while we leave. Or just tell your babysitter, like, we want some private time in our house to, like, get ready before the date. We. We've heard from, like, babysitters and nannies who are. Are like, trust us, like, it's. This is fine. Just ask us to take the kids out of the house. It's okay.
- [50:01]
B
So many people are like, oh, my God. But then the babysitter is gonna know. Then babysitters write in and they're like, we don't. Yeah. Like, we're all human. We all have sex. Like, I get it. It's not like.
- [50:12]
A
Or, like, take the kids, you know, if they can go to grandma's house or the neighbor's house or something. Like, take the kids over there first and then come back and get ready for date night.
- [50:20]
B
Because it also makes sense to be like, we just want a little time to get ready.
- [50:24]
A
Yeah.
- [50:24]
B
Because it's hard to get ready for the date when your kids are like, mommy, daddy, you know, know, like, obviously
- [50:30]
A
you can use screen time as well if that's, you know, something that you're open to your kids having. Or use that more general idea of, you know, making time for intimacy earlier in the day. Maybe you have sex the morning of your date night if that works better, you know, with your unique family. Or if you want to try the general idea of, like, trying to prioritize intimacy earlier in the day. Like, yes, as parents, you've got a ton of stuff on your plate. In the evening, there's like, it's. It's like your. That's your second shift of all the stuff that you have to do. But if you could even prioritize intimacy over watching tv, scrolling your phone on Instagram, even, like, folding that last load of laundry, like, even if there's just one thing that you could prioritize intimacy over, you will benefit from it.
- [51:13]
B
Move it up one slot in the to do list. One slot at a time.
- [51:17]
A
Okay, couple quick tips about privacy. We keep a monitor outside the kids room so we hear them coming before they get to our door.
- [51:25]
B
Oh, yeah. Do they have, like. Is this, like, you know, like, the little, like, the, like, laser thing along the floor so, like, flips a switch,
- [51:32]
A
like, special ops stuff, and locks on the door? I don't understand why every parent doesn't have them. Then let's wrap this up with some, like, kind of more mindset tips. These fell more into the, like, pep talk slash tough love responses that we got. So one parent wrote, maintenance sex sounds terrible, but it has to happen sometimes, and it keeps us out of dry spells. I really think that maintenance sex has a. In every relationship. I think, like, scheduled sex, it gets a bad rap. And then, to be clear, I am not saying, like, do not force yourself to have sex that you don't want to have. Like, that is just going to create resentment, ruin your sex drive. But I think there is something to be said about. You know what? I'm not, like, wildly excited right now, but I know that this is important, and I know. I feel so good afterwards. I know we feel really connected afterwards. It's like, I'm gonna go for it.
- [52:26]
B
Yeah. I mean, maybe don't call it. I might recommend calling it something else, like Tuesday night sex versus maintenance sex. Like, come up with a name. Because maintenance sex has some negative connotations for a lot of people. So I think maybe rename it also number two, I'm only on board with this if this is something that is communicated between both partners. Where maintenance sex becomes a problem is when one partner in only inside their own head goes, okay, yeah, I'll give my partner some maintenance sex. They don't say that to the partner. And so then the partner's experience is they're just getting a subpar experience, a less engaged experience, a partner that doesn't seem to really care that they're doing. They're. They're letting them do it to them, but they're, like, not really in it. That's when things become a problem. I think A lot of people do that. And they go, okay, I'll just let them do it to me. And in their head they're like, yeah, it's, you know, it's maintenance sex is good for us. I think that it is. It is totally cool if you're like, hey, yeah, you know, like, let's just kind of, you know, like, do a quickie. You know, we don't have a lot of time, but, like, I'm open to doing it like that. Come up with another name other than maintenance sex. Don't say, oh, I'm open to maintenance sex with you right now, but, like, have a conversation about it and talk about how, you know what that means to you in terms of generally how long we spend. Or, like, okay, it probably means we're just going to do this one position where, you know, you know, we know that we can both have a orgasm relatively quick.
- [53:54]
A
We've called it, like, Saturday night sex versus Tuesday night sex. Like, you know, it's on the or. Or you can come up with, like, your own funny, like, inside joke for it, too. Like we've talked about, I think we had like, like steak dinner or like, five course tasting menu versus, like, Taco Tuesday. I don't know why it's always Tuesday, but that feels like the perfect Mickey D. Ye know, we're just like, yeah, it's. It's just straightened to the point and, you know, we're getting to it. Okay. Another parent said, we really use your reframe of am I open to sex right now versus always Just feeling like we need to be a hundred percent ready to go. I think this actually really goes along with the maintenance. Oh, yeah. I would say that of all the times that Xander initiates sex, I am probably turned on and excited maybe 15 to 20% of the time. And that's not because I have a low sex drive or because we have mismatched sex drive guys. It's just because we are two different people. And it would be really weird if magically, every single time Xander was in the mood, oh, my God, I was wildly in the mood too. Or vice versa. Like, we're just two different people and we are interested and excited about it at different times. So I don't put the bar as, oh, Xander's initiating sex. Am I. Did I magically happen to be wildly horny in this exact moment? That's the only way I can say yes. Instead, we think about it in terms of. Terms of openness. Not am I already horny? But am I open to being Intimate. And am I open to the possibility of getting turned on? It brings the bar down. It's so much more realistic, and it means that we wind up having way more sex.
- [55:34]
B
Plus, if you were wildly horny right when your partner initiated, you would probably already have been initiating, like, 30 seconds before that. Right?
- [55:43]
A
Like, oh, my God, I was about to initiate with you. How crazy. Okay, next tip was, your sex life is going to change. Stop thinking it should be the same or be as easy as it was before. Once you accept that, you can start finding different things to love about sex and intimacy. That's a good one.
- [56:01]
B
Next, we had. You have to be intentional about your relationship. It's not just gonna happen. If you don't put in the effort to improve your relationship or your sex life, then you aren't ever going to see improvements.
- [56:12]
A
Stop taking sex so seriously. Bring some fun energy back into it, and it will feel lot more doable. I like. That's one of our guiding principles. Like, I think the more fun that we have with sex, the more fun we have with sex.
- [56:27]
B
And then, speaking of guiding principles, keeping your relationship alive is the best example for your kids to see. Mic drop. That is. That is one that I think so many parents struggle to see until they start prioritizing, and then they. They're like, oh, yeah, it's all about modeling the relationship that I want my kids to be able to have. I think so many of us have seen the opposite of that, of our parents, modeled a relationship that we didn't want to have. Right. And that's a lot of work for us. You get older and you start realizing, oh, yeah, maybe this wasn't as good as I thought it was. Oh, maybe this is kind of messed up. Oh, yeah, I really don't want to want that, but what do I want? Oh, now I have to figure out what I actually do want. And so many of us go through so many trials and tribulations in relationships because we know what we don't want, but we don't know what we do want. It's a hell of a lot easier if you can actually model something that is really aspirational to your kids. They don't have to go through all that work of figuring out exactly what it is they want. Like, they've seen it, they've lived, lived it. And, you know, I think ultimately that's what we all want. We want our kids to grow up happy and healthy and be able to get into a happy and healthy relationship. So why aren't we doing the same
- [57:51]
A
all right, and let's wrap this up with a longer DM that we got from a parent. I just thought this was so good and, like, really encapsulates so much of what we talk about and the perspective that we try to take in our work. Okay, this person, right, writes, I'm a classic overworked, overloaded, overwhelmed parent. There are days when I don't even feel like a human. A sexual being. Absolutely not. So when I hear other parents say to you guys, you just don't understand, I actually do have empathy for that. It is true. But I also want to give some of the parents out there some tough love. A lot of us parents are using the challenges of parenting as an excuse to avoid the things we need to be paying attention to, like our marriage. Marriages. A lot of parents get and stay stuck in the loop of, we're too tired, the kids are too needy, Life is too busy, they turn into the proverbial roommates. But there's also another subset of parents, the group I choose to be in. We're just as tired. Our kids are just as chaotic, Our calendars are just as packed. But we decided that our relationship isn't something we'll get back to someday. It's something we prioritize, protect, and pour into now. Now. Not because it's easy, but because it's important. My husband and I take your advice, and we tweak it to fit our circumstances. Yes, we have sometimes felt resistance, and we have had seasons where this was a lot harder than others. But thanks to you guys, we now understand that prioritizing our sex life is essential. It's what reminds us that you're not just business partners running a household. It's what keeps us connected, playful, affectionate, and actually liking each other. You've mentioned before that when you're connected sexually, you feel like a team and you tackle the challenges of life so much better. We have absolutely found that to be true in our relationship. So to the people who get cranky over your advice and leave comments like, yeah, but my situation is different. Okay, sure, everyone's is. But that doesn't mean you're off the hook. It just means you have to get a little more creative, a little more intentional, and a little more honest with yourself. At some point, you have to decide, are you going to keep proving why it can't work or start figuring out how it can? Because one path keeps you stuck exactly where you are, and the other leads to a relationship that actually feels alive again. And you both deserve that.
- [60:09]
B
Wow. I. I know I said mic drop earlier, but that. That is the mic drop right there. I've rescinded my previous mic drop moment.
- [60:17]
A
You can have multiple mic drops. All right, well, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.