E269: Tie-Breakers: We Referee Your Realest Relationship Standoffs

Summary

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Pillow Talks E269 Summary

Episode Overview

In Episode 269 of Pillow Talks (“Tie-Breakers: We Referee Your Realest Relationship Standoffs”), hosts Vanessa and Xander Marin put on their proverbial referee jerseys to tackle a series of real-life relationship debates sent in by listeners. Diving into both funny and serious ‘couple standoffs,’ this episode’s theme is straightforward: Vanessa and Xander break the tie on everything from chores to sexual boundaries to proper sheet folding—and do it all with their trademark blend of sex-positive wisdom, humor, and refreshing openness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Tiebreakers” Game Setup

• Vanessa explains the structure: “We ask you what is something that you and your partner just cannot agree on... and we will break the tie for you. We are the referees because we are the ultimate authorities on all things in your life.” (01:06)
• The dynamic is playful, with plenty of jokes about donning referee jerseys for the episode.

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1. TV in the Bedroom: Yes or No?

• Consensus: Both say absolutely NO.
• Xander: “We've done it before and it was a mistake and our sex life suffered hard.” (03:54)
• Vanessa shares research: "Couples who do not have a TV in their bedroom have way more sex than couples who do... If you have a TV in your bedroom, you are going to have about half as much sex as a couple who does not have one." (05:07)
• TV also damages sleep quality, leading to poorer sex lives by disrupting circadian rhythms. (07:15)
• Exception is made for parents who use TV as a noise buffer for privacy, but Xander recommends a Bluetooth speaker for sound instead. (08:51)

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2. Which Dishwasher Rack First?

• Consensus: Bottom rack first—objectively correct answer.
• Xander: "It's the bottom rack... if you start unloading the top, often water spills down and gets onto the... already dry dishes." (09:52)
• However, they caution against “weaponized competence” and nitpicking your partner’s methods—if someone is taking care of the task, let them do it—even if it’s not exactly your way. (11:12)
• Vanessa: “Would I rather us be able to get more things done at like 80, 85% or less things done at 95 to 100% and we’re fighting with each other all the time?” (15:24)

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3. Houseplants: Must or Menace?

• Team: Vanessa and Xander are pro-houseplant (“team house plant”).
• Vanessa: "They're just beautiful. They give you something nice to look at. Nature is beautiful." (18:50)
• Compromise: Designate houseplant-free zones if one partner dislikes them, and the plant lover should take on the care. “He definitely should not have to take care of the houseplants if he doesn't like having them around.” (18:45)

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4. Can You Have Platonic Friends of the Opposite Sex?

• Consensus: Yes, platonic friendships are possible, with healthy boundaries.
• Xander: “Are we really saying we have that little control? And also, it somehow implies that... any man and any woman have, like, somehow sexual attraction to each other, which... is not how I experience life.” (21:28)
• Vanessa calls the debate old and tired, and views men with female friends as a “green flag.” (22:28)
• The most important thing is defining and respecting clear boundaries, regardless of gender. (23:20)

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5. Are Audiobooks Reading?

• Technically, No—But in Practice, Yes!
• Vanessa: “Reading is the act of looking at words on a page. So you're not reading when you're listening to an audiobook. But... is listening to an audiobook consuming a book? Yes, absolutely.” (25:36)
• They denounce snobbery about formats, encouraging people to enjoy books however they prefer or are able.

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6. Peeing in the Shower: Acceptable or Not?

• Consensus: No, especially as a subconscious habit. It's an issue for bladder health.
• Vanessa (Pelvic floor PT advice): “Peeing in the shower... trains your bladder to tell your brain it needs to empty itself super frequently, when in reality it didn't actually have to.” (30:11)
• For those who want to save water, do it consciously (e.g., pee before the shower).

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7. Pet Is Sleeping On Me—Partner Must Do Everything?

• Vanessa says yes; Xander resists, joking that Vanessa overuses this excuse.
• Vanessa: “If your dog, your pet, is sleeping on you, you can't get up.” (33:05)
• Ultimately, they agree it’s okay for little chores (e.g., getting water/snacks), but can’t be an excuse for avoiding major household duties. (35:18)

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8. Chores Must Be Done Before Relaxing?

• Both caution against making chores a precondition for connection.
• Vanessa: “We're training our brains that chores matter more than connection, and that's not good. We have to be willing to prioritize connection.” (36:29)
• Xander shares: “If you find yourself consistently doing that, you’re... getting dependent on that tunnel vision.” (37:03)

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9. Who Replaces the Trash Bag After Emptying?

• Consensus: The trash task should be completed from start to finish by one person. Splitting tasks mid-way leads to more arguments and inefficiency.
• Xander: “You’re creating a situation where it is more likely that the other person will fail.” (41:51)

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10. Is Oral Sex 'Foreplay'?

• They reject rigid definitions; oral can be both foreplay and the main event.
• Vanessa: “Oral sex absolutely is sex... [it] can be more intimate and vulnerable than having intercourse.” (43:56)
• Xander: “It could absolutely be the main event.” (44:23)
• Their overall philosophy: Stop thinking of sexual activity as foreplay vs main event—just enjoy the different experiences.

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11. Is Kissing Sexual or Non-Sexual?

• Xander: “Once you get a tongue involved, I think it is sexual now.” (46:07)
• Vanessa: “I think a peck doesn't feel necessarily sexual to me... getting the tongue involved makes it sexual.” (47:25, 48:08)
• They advocate for having sexual moments that don’t necessarily lead to sex to keep the relationship connection “warm.” (49:23, 49:35)

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12. Should You Always Have the Same Side of the Bed?

• Consensus: Stick to your side—switching sides every few months is “absolutely insane.” (54:01)
• Xander: “The day you see me on the right side of the bed, you'll know we have a real problem.” (54:08)

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13. Pubic Hair Preferences—Whose Decision?

• Vanessa: “It comes down to the person whose body it is that gets to decide.” (55:18)
• Tips: Shaving is the worst for ingrowns and irritation; try sugaring or waxing, or just trim. (55:25)
• Xander says he’d happily accommodate Vanessa’s preferences for his own grooming, if it made her happy—but acknowledges it’s more loaded for women due to social pressure. (56:39, 56:55, 57:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Our bed should be used for two things and two things only. Sex and sleeping, not watching TV.” — Vanessa (08:15)
• “If you can't tell him why he has to do it that way, then he's going to have this sort of internal conflict... ‘I can't understand why she's acting like this towards me.’” — Xander on dishwasher logistics (13:12)
• “Platonic friendships are possible—we need to stop acting like everyone is just about to sleep with their friends.” — Vanessa (22:28)
• “Would I rather us be able to get more things done at like 80, 85% or less things done at 95 to 100% and we’re fighting… all the time?” — Vanessa (15:24)
• “You are setting yourself up for the argument... if you split up tasks halfway.” — Xander (41:51)
• “If your pet is sleeping on you, you can't get up.” — Vanessa (33:05)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00-01:36 – Intro & Explanation of Tiebreakers Game
• 03:51 – TV in the Bedroom Debate
• 09:44 – Dishwasher: Top or Bottom Rack First
• 18:21 – Houseplants: Dealbreaker or Decor?
• 20:35 – Platonic Friendships
• 25:28 – Are Audiobooks Reading?
• 28:42 – Peeing in the Shower
• 32:56 – Pet Sleeping Excuse Debate
• 35:35 – Do Chores Need To Be Done Before Relaxing?
• 40:38 – Trash Out, Who Bags?
• 42:22 – Is Oral Sex Foreplay?
• 46:07 – Is Kissing Sexual?
• 52:09 – Side of the Bed Debate
• 54:12 – Who Gets to Decide on Pubic Hair Grooming?

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Tone & Takeaways

Vanessa and Xander’s tone is fun, loving, and direct, unafraid to go from light-hearted banter to insightful relationship commentary. Each answer is both a verdict and a teaching moment, encouraging couples to reflect on expectations, communication, and the deeper why behind their habits.

The Pillow Talks Tiebreaker Approach:

• Default to kindness, efficiency & full ownership of chores
• Don’t split hairs (or tasks) unnecessarily—it leads to more frustration
• It’s your body, your choice; communicate preferences without demanding
• Connection trumps chores: intimacy isn’t built on a perfect checklist
• Don’t be a snob about formats (books, music, sex acts)—the experience is what matters

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For More: Connect with Vanessa & Xander at @vanessaandxander on Instagram, and listen weekly for more practical, funny, and heartfelt relationship advice.

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This summary skips advertisements and non-content sections as requested. All notable debate points are preserved, with the podcast’s original humor and candid spirit woven throughout.

Transcript

[Vanessa]

Should you always have one side of the bed or should it switch every couple of months?

[Xander]

I feel like we always get this one.

[Vanessa]

This is a serial question.

[Xander]

This is a wild one.

[Vanessa]

Every couple of months. Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20

[Xander]

years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

[Vanessa]

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. We wanted to have a little bit of fun today, so we thought, let's bring back one of our favorite games that we've played for one or two times on the podcast. I think we do probably more.

[Xander]

Maybe more on Instagram.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, we do it more on Instagram, but it is called Tiebreakers. So here's how the game works. We ask you what is something that you and your partner just cannot agree on? Whether it's a serious thing, a funny thing, a ridiculous thing, like whatever it is that you guys just cannot agree on. And we will break the tie for you. We are the referees because we are the ultimate authorities on all things in your life.

[Xander]

We should have worn ref jerseys.

[Vanessa]

Oh, because we have ref jerseys.

[Xander]

Yeah, of course, because we do. Because, you know, in our role playing. Yeah. In our costume closet,

[Vanessa]

you got a red car.

[Xander]

I know. It is World cup season. We could get some sexy World cup things going. Ooh, a free kick in my penalty box.

[Vanessa]

That sounds awful. Why do you want to bend.

[Xander]

Bend that ball in here.

[Vanessa]

I don't think anybody wants a kick in the penalty box. No. All right, so we got a ton of amazing submissions. I think this is gonna be really fun. And maybe it also ends up being some helpful conversation opening.

[Xander]

Yeah, maybe it's healing for you. Maybe. We finally solved your 10 year old argument.

[Vanessa]

We did. We have had somebody reach out to us who was like, you did solve it for us. We decided to accept your advice. We took it, and now we do not fight about it again.

[Xander]

So to everyone who wrote in, if you re. If you hear your question, read this. Let this be your notification that this is binding arbitration. You. You actually unknowingly signed that clause just by listening to the podcast. And you will now be obliged to comply with our judgment. If we agree.

[Vanessa]

Okay. But before we get into it, we would love to just ask a super quick favor. It would be so, so, so deeply helpful to us if you would take half a second to just hit subscribe wherever you are. Listening to your podcast right now. I know it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but it really makes a huge difference.

[Xander]

Yeah, subscribe or follow. Depends on the platform. It'll say one of those two things. Yeah, smash that button.

[Vanessa]

Having a podcast these days is hard, y'. All. I'm in a podcasting group, and there are just so many people feeling so beaten down by the podcasting world and algorithms and all the weird insider stuff that I won't bore you with. But we would greatly appreciate that support. It honestly does make a big difference. And if you want a gold star, you could leave us a rating or a review. We would be so appreciative of that. Okay, let's hop into these. TV in the bedroom, yes or no? Should we count down and on this one?

[Xander]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Vanessa]

Okay. Three, two, one.

[Xander]

No, absolutely not. We've done it before and it was a mistake and our sex life suffered hard.

[Vanessa]

No, on this one. So, look, I get it. Like, the idea of just being in bed together, watching tv, it is nice and cozy, can be very relaxing.

[Xander]

You can always do that with your laptop or an iPad if you really need to. But like, having the tv, there is a. Brings it to another level.

[Vanessa]

There are two main things that having a TV in the bedroom affects. Your sex life and your sleep. So with your sex life. There was a study found that having a TV in the bathroom. Bathroom. Actually, I'm curious to know.

[Xander]

You know what, you want it in the bedroom. You know you can't. For you just put it in the bathroom. Just every time you go pee, get like 30 seconds of your show.

[Vanessa]

TV isn't. I mean, men would never leave the bathroom if there was a TV in there.

[Xander]

Yeah, that would be a problem. That would be a problem. It's the one time men suddenly want to read. So, yeah, if there was a tv, all bets would be off. It would be great during football season, I'll tell you that.

[Vanessa]

Oh, my God. There was a study that found that couples who do not have a TV in their bedroom have way more sex than couples who do have a TV in their bedroom. So if you have a TV in your bedroom, you are going to have about half as much sex as a couple who does not have one.

[Xander]

That is wild. Yeah. I mean, when you. If you. If you heard just the finding, like the. The headline like that people with TVs in the bedroom have less sex. You'd probably think, oh, it's like, you know, maybe like 20% less, 30% less. But yeah, like 50% less. Literally half that's, that is, that's significant. Think about how often you have sex and think about what twice that much is or half that much is. That's a serious number, no matter how often you do or don't do it.

[Vanessa]

We have to be really honest with ourselves about our TV watching habits because they are really getting in the way of our sex lives. And let's be honest, TV is very alluring. It's addicting. It sucks you in. It feels so nice to just conk out on the sofa and watch something brainless after a long day. We are so heavy into Love island right now. I get it. There is nothing I want more at the end of the day than putting on a new episode of Love Island. But you get started watching and every, you know, every minute that goes by, it just feels harder and harder and harder to imagine getting up off the couch and going to have sex with your partner.

[Xander]

Yeah. And I mean, the difference with the bedroom is there's no natural end to the watching of the tv. You're already in bed. Like you, you know, like if you're watching TV in the living room, at least you have at a certain point you have to say, yeah, hey, let's stop watching TV and go get ready for bed. Like, you have to make a change to, to switch activities. But like, if it's in the bedroom, you don't at all. And most, many people, most people, many people are like, oh, well, I like to fall asleep with the TV on. So it's like you're, you literally have no reason to ever stop.

[Vanessa]

So it hurts your sex life. It also hurts your sleep. And I'm not a sleep expert, but there are just tons of studies showing that when we're watching, you know, watching scre in bed makes it harder to fall asleep. Makes our sleep, like, makes us more likely to wake up in the middle of the night.

[Xander]

Disrupts our sleep.

[Vanessa]

Lower quality sleep. Just having, you know, screens in front of your eyes disrupts your circadian rhythms.

[Xander]

And surprise, surprise, people who get less sleep, what do you think they have more or less sex than people who get good sleep? I guarantee you it is a hell of a lot less. So it's like a double whammy it all. I mean, that's probably the reason ultimately why, but it's like, yeah, you have this, you know, you have this clear quantifiable factor of lower quality sleep. Then you have a less quantifiable factor of, like, well, you know, you're kind of in bed, it's harder to stop watching tv, or TV watching just kind of slides through the time where maybe you might have had a chance to have sex. So, yeah, it's just this total double whammy.

[Vanessa]

Your bed should be used for two things and two things only. Sex and sleeping, not watching tv. The only exception that I will make for this one, though, is if you are a parent and you have concerns about sound privacy and you use the TV just for, like, privacy. So a lot of parents will tell us, hey, we put a show on so our kids just think we're watching tv rather than, you know, them being able to hear us have sex. So if having the TV on only when you're having sex, and it's only for the purposes of having a little bit of sound privacy, I'll give it to you in that case.

[Xander]

But honestly, if that's what your goal is, I can think of a better solution for the same cost of a TV or possibly less, which would be to get, like, a good Bluetooth speaker type of sound system for your bedroom, which you could, like, connect your iPad to so you still have that plausible deniability. Oh, we're putting a show on. But an actual, like, sound system is better than the crappy little speakers that are built into a tv. And so you will get more sound privacy. You'll get way better bang for your buck. Then it's like, then you have the deniability of, oh, yeah, no, we have speakers in a room. We listen to music. Oh, it's speakers in a room. We watch TV shows like that. Don't waste your money on the TV in the bedroom that you aren't going to use, except to pretend that you're watching it so that your kids don't know you're having sex. Just spend that money on some better speakers. They will be louder and they will actually block the sound out better.

[Vanessa]

All right, fine. Which rack of the dishwasher should be unloaded first? There is an objective right answer to this question.

[Xander]

It's the bottom rack.

[Vanessa]

Yes.

[Xander]

And that is because sometimes there is water that gets stuck in, you know, bowls or on top of cups or whatever. And so if you start unloading the top, you pull the top rack out, or, you know, ours has a silverware rack a at the very top. Like, if you start pulling the upper racks out, often water spills down and Gets onto the. What were already dry dishes. So, yeah, if you start from the bottom, you guarantee that you don't wet the dishes above.

[Vanessa]

Thank God you knew that.

[Xander]

So I knew that. And when I. Yep. When I empty the dishwasher solo, I always do it that way. The only exception is if I'm in a pinch, like in a rush, and I'm like, oh, there's no knives. I need to grab a knife really quick and the dishwasher's clean, I'll just, you know, reach in there and grab one.

[Vanessa]

Okay. Let's say though that I'm sure the context that this comes up in is it's probably like a mental load or, you know, household responsibilities conversation, where I'm going to guess, because this is the, the dynamic that we hear about most often. Male, female relationship. The man is unloading that dishwasher willy nilly. And she's like, no, you have to unload the bottom first. And he's like, just let me do it how I do it.

[Xander]

Yeah, let him fucking do it.

[Vanessa]

Okay, say more.

[Xander]

I mean, if he is unloading the dishwasher and that is his job, or it's your job, but he's doing it for you, then you telling him that he's doing it wrong is all you're doing is hurting yourself. Because then he is. Well, if he, if he's, if he's literally taking something off of your plate, you are decreasing the likelihood that he will. That he is going to do it, that he is going to continue to do that for you because he's going to be like, hey, how does this bother you? I'm taking care of it.

[Vanessa]

No, I think the way more likely scenario is like this. It's his job.

[Xander]

Okay, well. And yeah, so. And then in that scenario, it's his job. So who the fudge cares? He's the one that suffers possibly from wet dishes. The only exception I can think of here.

[Vanessa]

Going to get some people mad with that.

[Xander]

Yeah, who cares? So the only exception.

[Vanessa]

Who cares if you get people mad?

[Xander]

Well, let me, let me, let me explain my exception. My God. Let me just say what the exception is. Okay.

[Vanessa]

Damn. Tiebreakers has got Xander. He did on the second question.

[Xander]

The exception is if you do something right after the dishwasher gets emptied where then having wet dishes adversely impacts you. Or like, you know, consistently wet dishes are getting put away in cupboards and they're not drying because it's closed up. Or, you know, you're having an issue of like, the wood in your cabinets is starting to get warped because like there's all this wet stuff in it. Because really wetness is the only adverse impact to unloading it wrong. Like, you know, top down instead of bottom up. But if you're just saying you're doing it wrong and it doesn't adversely impact you at all, I think the question is, who cares? Because all you're doing is creating a dynamic where you are the authority on things and he is not the authority. And that, that creates the situation where then he goes, oh, well, I, I must not know how to do stuff. So then I'm going to always ask you questions because you clearly have a, you clearly have a stronger perspective than I do. And I think other. That's the flip side of mental load that I think people don't like to acknowledge the question asking, the weaponized incompetence. Sometimes it's real, sometimes it is learned. And I think that we have to be able to take responsibility for that, that element of it. Am I making it harder for him to just do things that he's gonna do on his own? And, and also I think men, we like to understand why, you know, if this impacts you, then absolutely, that makes sense. And he's gonna be like, yeah, that makes logical sense that this is advers. But if you can't tell him why he has to do it that way, then he's gonna have this, like, he's gonna have this sort of internal conflict when he hears that and go, I can't understand why she's doing, why she's acting like this towards me.

[Vanessa]

I'll say a few things. This is why it's so important when you're having a mental load and responsibilities conversation to talk about what does done look like for each task. And I will be honest, this is a hard conversation. It's. It takes so long, it can feel really grueling. But you guys have to agree on what does done look like. And I think you are right that we do have to think through the question, does it really matter? I've used this example a ton of times before. Like I have a fixation on folding the towels in a certain way. It's just like my brain, I want the towels to look that way. And I have to ask myself, does it actually matter? Has anybody ever come over and opened our linen closet and been like, oh my God, that's the way you fold our towels. Would it matter for our towel usage if we just crumpled the towels up and threw them all in the closet?

[Xander]

Well, that would matter because it would Be hard to find the right towels. They need to be organized.

[Vanessa]

All right, fine.

[Xander]

Right. The last thing I want to do when I'm like, oh, shoot, there's not a hand towel in this bathroom is run to the little linen closet and then not be able to find my towel. And I know exactly where to go. Right. So that makes sense. But yeah, I mean, it's like.

[Vanessa]

But I think the point I'm trying to make is life is full. We all have so many things on our plate. It is worth us asking ourselves, would I rather us be able to get more things done at like 80, 85% or less things done at 95 to 100% and we're fighting with each other all the time.

[Xander]

But I think the thing you have to call out, though, is 85% of my standard.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Xander]

I think that the conversation often turns into this thing where we somehow think that the person that has the higher standards is somehow objectively right and we have to do away with that idea.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. They are not always right. Like I've talked about with the towels, I've had to examine, like, where does that come from? Why does that feel so important to me? And I don't think I am objectively right about that. I think it's just a weird quirk my brain has, which kind of leads me into the next thing that when Xander and I have divided up our chores and responsibilities, we did try to think about. And this isn't the case for every single thing, but we tried to think about what are the things that matter more to each of us. So I do the laundry because I do like having the things folded in a certain way. I do like making sure that certain stuff is dried on delicate and some things are air dried and all of that. So I chose, hey, I'm going to do laundry. So having that be a part of the conversation can also be really helpful.

[Xander]

Woo.

[Vanessa]

Who knew we would go so deep on just on.

[Xander]

If we go deep on the next one, we're gonna be in trouble.

[Vanessa]

Is there anything better after a long day than getting into bed? And especially when you have sheets that you absolutely love, it is such a priority to us to have a really cozy, luxur, comfortable bed. And we love Cozy Earth for making incredible sheets. They are made from viscose from bamboo, so they're super breathable, soft. They sleep really cool. So if you're a hot sleeper, you definitely have to check out this sheet set. It's built for the summertime. And Cozy Earth makes a ton of other incredible products. We Both have a lot of their clothing. Again, super soft and cozy, but very breathable. We have pajama sets. You've got a bunch of their T shirts. They make bags, bath towels. They make robes. Really cozy blankets, too. Like, we have a ton of Cozy Earth stuff. We've gifted a ton of cozy earth stuff. It's just such a hit. And now you can head to cozyearth.com and use our code PILLOW for an exclusive 20% off. That's code PILLOW for an exclusive twenty percent off. And if you see a post purchase survey, please mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here.

[Xander]

Okay, well, next up, I think that we can do cover this one quickly. Houseplants. I love them. He doesn't.

[Vanessa]

We're team house plants over here. I mean, we literally have them right behind us. Okay. Houseplants are great because they add decor. They also clean your air.

[Xander]

They do. They are the nature's air purifiers.

[Vanessa]

They're very healthy for you to have in your home.

[Xander]

I feel like they're specific. Specific. Like, there are specific plants that do better at filtering air than others, too, if that's important to you.

[Vanessa]

And they're just beautiful. They give you something nice to look at. Nature is beautiful. It's cool to, like, bring a little bit of that indoors. I will say, though, like, okay, if he really doesn't like houseplants, maybe you guys designate certain rooms that the plants are in free zone and certain. Maybe he gets to have a little houseplant free zone. He definitely should not have to take care of the house plants if he doesn't like having them around.

[Xander]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Vanessa]

Maybe there's like. Okay, you know how some people go a little bit nutty with the plants and it's.

[Xander]

Yeah. How?

[Vanessa]

I mean, how many, you know, room full of. If you can't navigate around your house without having to walk around house plants, then, yeah, maybe a bit fewer houseplants.

[Xander]

Yeah. I mean, we don't have enough detail, but just so don't take this as permission to be like, okay, yeah, I'm a houseplant hoarder, and I'm good with it. Like, now we got to do this,

[Vanessa]

but you can have two houseplants per room. How about that?

[Xander]

Okay. Interesting. In the bathroom, too. Tiny little bathroom.

[Vanessa]

Sure.

[Xander]

But yeah. No, yeah. I mean, my question is just, yeah. Why? Why not? Like, I could understand that. You're like, I don't want to take care of them. I don't want to have to go pick them out of the nursery. I get that. But if the other person is like, well, I'll take care of that. I think that if it's someone where it's like, they're like, I don't really want these plants, and the partner's like, well, I do. And then you got to water them and take care of them and blah, blah, blah.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Xander]

I've never had plants before we got together. I mean, I lived in a dorm room and I lived in a shit little, like, flat share in San Francisco with some college friends, so there was no opportunity for them. But, like, plants are not something that I would naturally think of. That being said, having a lot of plants in our house is definitely increased my quality of life.

[Vanessa]

There you go.

[Xander]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

Okay, so team house plant over here. Okay, here's the next one. And it made me laugh because it has a really cute typo pluton. I don't know.

[Xander]

She can't even get through.

[Vanessa]

These bring me so much delight. I love typos. Okay. Plutonic. Plutonic relationship with the opposite sex. I say not possible. My wife disagrees. You mean platonic?

[Xander]

Platonic. What would plutonic like?

[Vanessa]

Pluto?

[Xander]

Yeah, yeah. But, like, what is. What is like, Pluto in, like, I don't know, in, like, Greek Roman mythology? Like, what is the God of? Yeah, what is Pluto the God of? Because. Oh, is it, like, wealth?

[Vanessa]

I think.

[Xander]

I think it's wealthy.

[Vanessa]

No, no, the dead.

[Xander]

The dead in the underworld. So, yeah, what would plutonic mean? Like, of death or something? Interesting.

[Vanessa]

Okay.

[Xander]

Yeah, I. I think that it is not possible to have a relationship with someone who's dead. But no, for real. Plat. Yeah, I mean, I think bottom line, for terms of platonic relationship with the opposite sex, I say it is absolutely possible. I think that. Yeah, I mean, it's just a matter of what are the actual boundaries in that friendship and how well are both people actually upholding those boundaries. I think it's when people are like, you know, oh, there's no way that, like, a man and a woman can be friends without any kind of, like, sexual inevitability. Are we really saying that we have that little control? And also, it somehow implies that, like, any man and any woman have, like, somehow sexual attraction to each other, which that is not how I experience life, I can tell you that.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, I think this is just a really old, tired debate. Like, people can be friends and have it not be sexualized. Also, people are different sexual orientations, too. So, like, you could have a woman and a man be friends, and there's no way they would Even gonna think about having sex with each other. So, yeah, I just think this is, this is old and tired and silly and I think it's really important for us to encourage opposite sex friendships. I think men who have a lot of female friends, that is often very much a green flag where they are learning to have more complex, nuanced friendships, where they are learning more emotional intelligence, where they are learning, you know, for straight men, like, what women are looking for and what they want and need. I think there are a lot of benefits to having female friendships.

[Xander]

Yeah, I think that this is a, this is just an overly black and white way of looking at it. What someone who is saying this is really saying is, I don't want to do the work to have to think of, like, what are actual realistic boundaries for, you know, for me or for my partner in this type of relationship. And, and then, and then we actually have to enforce them. I mean, you can set the gender aside, but for this case, we can say an opposite sex friendship. You know, it is completely inappropriate if, like, you are like, calling them at all hours of the day. You know, you're with your partner, like, on date night, and it's like, oh my God, like so and so is calling me, I gotta pick up the phone. Or like, you're texting them the whole thing. You know, it's like your relationship is literally taking away from your ability to have a romantic relationship with someone. Or, you know, like, you keep making like, sexual jokes or, you know, you're sharing more about your own internal experience with your friend than you are with your partner. Like, those are all red flags or, or at least potential boundary violations if, you know, if that's important to you. And so I think it's. Yeah, it's not a black and white thing, but we have to think about at what point do I draw the line on, like, you know, the bounds of my romantic relationship versus the bounds of my friendship? Because I mean, similarly, the same thing could be said of a same sex relationship if it's like all those things I described. Oh, like you can't stop texting them when we're supposed to be on date night. Or like, you keep making like, like sexualized jokes with each other. Or like girth check, love island reference, you know. Yeah. Or, or you are, yeah, like sharing more of your internal experience with someone else than you are with your partner. Like, those are all reasons where you might be like, hey, this doesn't feel very good. Like, where, like, I thought that that's what this relationship was Meant to be. And it's not that you can't do any of those things with somebody else, but that's to think about how it feel. If you're like, oh, they are getting all of their needs met in this area by this other person. I feel like I'm not really there for them. And it's like, why? Why? What are we doing here?

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Xander]

Okay. Vanessa, are audiobooks considered reading?

[Vanessa]

Technically, no, but I think that this is a stupid question. Yes. You are not reading. Reading is the act of looking at words on a page. So you're not reading when you're listening to an audiobook. But if the question is, is an audiobook. Like, is listening to an audiobook consuming a book? Yes, absolutely. And I don't think we should make sense.

[Xander]

We need a better word for.

[Vanessa]

I'm a literary snob. I'm a book snob. I don't really listen to audiobooks. I don't get it. I love having a book in my hand.

[Xander]

Yeah, she's kind of anti Kindle.

[Vanessa]

I'm not a Kindle person.

[Xander]

But you should buy our book on Kindle or audiobook. You absolutely should, because we. Well, on audiobook, we read our book, which is pretty awesome.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, No, I love it. But all that being said, I still think it's dumb to create this hierarchy around different types of reading. Like, you're not a better person if you read the hard copy of a book versus if you listen to the book. And for lots of people, audiobooks are the only way that they have the time to consume. Consume a book.

[Xander]

Yeah. That just sounds awful. Yeah, I've consumed that one.

[Vanessa]

I've.

[Xander]

I've experienced it.

[Vanessa]

They listened to it. It's the only way, you know, if that. If that's the only way for you to be able to have a book or that's your most enjoyable way to do it. You, like, you're just more of an auditory person. You like getting lost in the, like, soundscape. You like listening to the different narrators and all of that kind of stuff. So I think it's silly to make this a hierarchy. But technically, I would say audiobooks are not reading.

[Xander]

This. This argument, it kind of reminds me of, like, I feel like this is less of a thing anymore. But that was an. You know, in the era when we were younger, I think that was. There was a vibe around, like, real music versus, like, electronic music or, like, sampled music, where it's like, is it really music if you didn't play an instrument? Or it's. Or you Know, then it turned into a point where. Of, like, okay, well, like, electric. Like, everything is. There's some digital or electronic element. But, like, was it an analog synthesizer versus a digital thing? Did you make it on a laptop Versus, did you have a bunch of, like, studio equipment?

[Vanessa]

Music. Music.

[Xander]

I mean, if it sounds like music, I think it's music. But, like. But yeah, we finally gotten to a point where this has gone on for so long. Almost every single, like, produced track has some kind of digital element in it that it's like, people aren't making this argument anymore. But it honestly, it's like that. It's like the ultimate experience is the same. Like, you can listen to the thing and enjoy it. With the book. You could read the book and I could listen to the book. We could have the same kind of conversation afterwards about the book that we could have if we had both read it, if we had both listened to it, if we both. If. If the tables had been turned. Like, what we can do with that knowledge and experience is the same.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, doesn't matter. Don't be a snob about it.

[Xander]

Don't be a snob.

[Vanessa]

Okay. Is peeing in the shower an acceptable practice?

[Xander]

No, it is not. However, it is highly enjoyable. Um, I used. I was team pee in the shower for a long time, but it does. I'll let you describe what it does because I was starting to experience this and have. Once I stopped, I also. Yeah, I also stopped peeing in my wetsuit. Surfing the surfer question. So fun. Yeah, I'm not seeing most surfers do pee in their wetsuit, but I stopped because I started buying nicer wetsuits, and they said, if you don't pee in

[Vanessa]

this thing, it's gonna.

[Xander]

You're gonna ruin the scenes. Your pee is acidic. And I was like, oh, I want my wetsuit to last longer. So I stopped. But, yeah, not doing that actually had some positive benefits, which Vanessa will explain.

[Vanessa]

Okay, so here's what I have learned from my pelvic floor physical therapist friends. Peeing in the shower unintentionally is not a good thing to do. So a lot of people get into the shower and they just start peeing, and they're not even really conscious of it. They're not even really thinking about it. I got into this very bad habit myself many years ago where I was getting into the shower, and I would just realize, like, oh, my God, I think I'm peeing. I didn't even realize that I was doing that. And it coincided with a lot of other Bladder issues that I developed that we ended up doing a podcast episode about this, didn't we? Like my bladder journey?

[Xander]

Yeah, bladder journey.

[Vanessa]

I ended up having frequency issues where it felt like I had to go like every 30 to 60 minutes and it was starting to drive me nuts. And so I eventually learned that peeing in the shower, doing just because pee, like, oh, well, I'm about to leave the house, so I might as well go pee now. Or I have to. But going into a meeting, that's 30 minutes. Like, might as well pee now. Doing all of those things was training my bladder to tell my brain that it needed to empty itself super frequently, when in reality it didn't actually have to. So I stopped peeing in the shower and changed a couple of other habits and now my bladder is totally fine. So, yeah, it's like doing it without thinking about it.

[Xander]

But good luck. Good luck trying to pee in the shower intentionally. That was my experience. You know, Vanessa told me all of that and I am like, oh, yeah. Well, no, I mean, I choose when I pee in the shower. And yeah, it was never that. It was like, just starting to happen. If I'm being honest, the moment I get into the shower, I start thinking, oh, I need to pee. And I would usually wait, I would, like, do a couple of things in the shower. I wouldn't just, like, walk in and piss. But then I was like, well, huh, like, like the moment I get in, I want to. I was like, so how? Yeah, okay. So I'm holding it a bit to, like, try to prove to myself that I. I am in control of this thing. But then it's like, so what? Like, am I supposed to hold it the whole time? It. I can, I can absolutely hold it the whole time in the shower. But that makes the shower really unpleasant.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Xander]

So I just started. If I need to pee, then I'll pee in the toilet, then I'll get in the shower. And it is a pleasant shower experience. I don't think about peeing.

[Vanessa]

But you still, if you're turning the shower on, you're still making the association of the sound of running water. Because a lot of people run into this issue with, like, using the sinks. They're, you know, they start hearing the running water and it's like on their hand and like, oh, my God, I gotta go pee. So that could be an issue too. But yeah, I do think a lot of people I know, you know, you want to pee in the shower because it, like, saves a toilet flush. And I get that too. So you could do one of two things.

[Xander]

Well, the amount of time go into

[Vanessa]

the shower and just. Just pee and then turn the shower on. Or if you can genuinely wait until the end of the shower and then you're making this conscious decision of, like, I am choosing to go right now. But if you ever start. If you ever get into the shower and you just feel like what Xander was describing. Feel that? Like, oh, my God, I'm feeling the water. I'm hearing the water. I gotta go. Then I would say, don't pee in the shower. Okay, this one cracked me up. If your pet is sleeping on you, you are not allowed to do anything and your partner has to do all of the things. Do you agree or disagree?

[Xander]

I disagree with this because.

[Vanessa]

How dare you?

[Xander]

Because you use this on me all the time and I don't use it on you.

[Vanessa]

This is clearly a rule. If your pet is sleeping on you, you cannot disturb them. Look, we have a prime example here. Right now, I can't do anything to disturb little Maggie sleeping on my lap.

[Xander]

I don't know.

[Vanessa]

She's peaceful. She's happy.

[Xander]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

She shouldn't have to get disturbed.

[Xander]

And she'll stay there all day if she can.

[Vanessa]

I think if your dog, your pet, is sleeping on you, you can't get up.

[Xander]

You're wrong.

[Vanessa]

Wow. Well, I guess we'll have to turn this one over. Well, okay, other than you don't like that I use it on you, what's your argument for why this should not?

[Xander]

Well, because if you follow that argument, then chores don't matter. You know, responsibilities don't matter anymore because it's like, oh, I can't do the laundry today. Maggie's on me.

[Vanessa]

That's a dumb argument. This happens so infrequently. It's like you're. You're watching TV on the couch, and so. And all that it ever is is like, can you get me a glass of water? Can you bring me a snack?

[Xander]

Well, and I do. I do. Often.

[Vanessa]

Okay, so tell me, what's your. What's your argument against this then?

[Xander]

Well.

[Vanessa]

Well, if you want me to.

[Xander]

Both dogs are on. One dog's on you, and one dog's on me.

[Vanessa]

Then you have to Rochambeau. That's fair.

[Xander]

All right, sure.

[Vanessa]

So I've convinced you.

[Xander]

I don't know. I'm gonna start trying to get Chauncey or Maggie on me and utilize the shit out of this one.

[Vanessa]

That's fine. But you're talking about something different. You're talking about just being salty that you have to do it versus an actual disagreement with the concept.

[Xander]

Well, I think that it's. Yeah. Okay. For, like, little things, like, go get a glass of water. Sure. I think sometimes you send me on, like, go find whatever. I'm like, I don't know where that is. And you don't know where that is. Because Vanessa has a way of putting things or leaving things in unusual places, inconsistent places. So it. I'm like, if it's a simple like. Like grab this from the. From the cupboard or whatever, I don't have a problem with it. But sometimes it turns into, like, go on a wild goose chase for something after, and it usually comes right after I've just gotten comfortable.

[Vanessa]

All right, I'm gonna call it. We agree with you on this one.

[Xander]

If you have 10, you. The. The person is allowed, like, 10 minutes to, like, be comfortable. And then after 10 minutes, then game on.

[Vanessa]

No, we're gonna. We're gonna agree. Let's move on.

[Xander]

Okay. I need chores to be done to relax. Husband disagrees. We fight about this all the time. Well, if you wanna never have sex, then you're right.

[Vanessa]

But I did. I'm gonna disagree. I'm on your husband's side with this one. I get it. My brain often works that way. And I think your brain works that way too, sometimes where it's like, yeah, once it triggers.

[Xander]

Once it gets triggered.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. You're like, I just want to finish this thing, or I just want to clear my to do list out a little bit and just have that peace of mind. And sometimes even like, the visual, you know, being able to see a clean and tidy kitchen. You just go, ugh.

[Xander]

Okay. Thank God.

[Vanessa]

So I get it. I really empathize with it. I've experienced this myself, and at the same time, I think it's an unhealthy habit for us to get ourselves into

[Xander]

because it's like a dopamine addiction type of.

[Vanessa]

Maybe. But, yeah, I mean, what we're doing is we're training our brains that chores matter more than connection, and that's not good. We have to be willing to prioritize connection with each other over the chores. And often what you will find is when you do prioritize connection with your partner, you feel better. You feel more like a team, and then you guys can tackle those chores so much faster and so much more effectively.

[Xander]

Yeah, definitely. I. I mean, I. I have a similar experience of sometimes it'll be a chore, sometimes it'll be a work task or a personal task, something like that, where it's like I'm in the middle of it. It's reaching a point in time where normally I would have stopped. Or like, Vanessa's sitting on the couch and wondering if I'm going to come over so we can watch our show or whatever the case is. And that feeling just comes over me. Oh, I just really want to get this done. I'm going to be so much happier if I can just have this thing done almost every single time. If I can get myself to really think, hey, does this. This absolutely have to be done right now? If this gets. If this doesn't get done right now, like, is something bad gonna happen? Is someone not gonna have something that they need, whatever. But beyond that, no one, nothing else is gonna suffer. If I can then walk away from it. I found that it. The walking away is the part that hurts. And then once it's out of sight, it's out of mind. Like, it. It. That feeling dissipates so quickly once you separate yourself from it. That's what I have found. And then I'm like, oh, thank God. I'm not spending another half an hour doing this. I can totally do it another time. In that moment, you're just. You have the tunnel vision. And. But the only way. Yeah, all. If you find yourself consistently doing that you are just habituating yourself to. You are getting dependent on that tunnel vision. Oh, no, I got the tunnel vision. It's gotta be done. And think about what that feels like for your partner. Like, hey, where is the person that I love? Like, I want to hang out with them.

[Vanessa]

So Xander is going to spend a chunk of his summer having a great periodontist appointment that could have been avoided had we known about Remy sooner. Remy makes custom night guards that protect your teeth. They are the only FDA cleared and clinically tested at home impression kit night guards on the market. They prevent teeth damage from grinding, can help reduce jaw tension and facial muscle strain, and even improve your sleep quality. Yeah.

[Xander]

I did not listen to my dentists in my early 20s who were clearly calling out to me that I had the signs that I was clenching and grinding and I needed a mouth guard. And I didn't listen. And I finally did once I started seeing some of those signs. But now that I'm in my early 40s, I'm having to do the restorative gum work to keep my gums healthy, that they would have been absolutely healthy had I just listened at the very beginning.

[Vanessa]

Remy will help you get the same professional quality and comfort as a night guard from the dentist but for 80% less of the cost. And you get the convenience of taking your own impressions at home. So your impression kit comes straight to your door. You just follow their instructions. We did it. And it was super easy. And then they ship your custom fit night guard straight to your door. It is so easy. Easy. Protect your teeth with Remy by using code pillow to get 55 off your new night guard from now until the end of August with Remy Club. Subscribe and save. That's 55% off at shop r e m I.com pillow with code pillow. Thank you Remy for sponsoring this episode. Okay, whoever takes the trash out, the other person has to put the bag in. Agree or disagree?

[Xander]

Disagree. Unless that is the actual arrangement that you have. How you've split up the task. I do think that is not a smart way to split out that task though.

[Vanessa]

I agree.

[Xander]

Unless you are somehow agreeing because the way for that to work is. Okay, so we both have to be at home at the time when we do that. Because a trash bag does need to go in right afterwards. Otherwise you can't put trash in the. In the trash can. Right? So it's like so we have to be there together. We have to communicate. Okay, it's happening right now. So if you want to be like, okay, yeah, at 3:32pm on every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we do the trash. Like, sure. But that is a really inefficient use of time and resources.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, no, I disagree that the person has to put the bag in. I agree with you that that's a dumb way to split up the chore. And I think in general it is best to split up chores where you have like the full chore from start to beginning, from ideation to reviewing at the end. Like that should be one person's sole job. It's so much easier, so much cleaner done that way. It'll lead to so many fewer arguments between the two of you as well.

[Xander]

So yeah, you're setting your up for the argument for the. You're. You're creating a situation where it is more likely that the other person will fail. If that's the experience you want to have, then go ahead and split up tasks halfway. But it just seems like, yeah, and there's usually enough tasks to run a household where you can split up. Full ass tasks, not split up. You can give. Each person gets assigned full ass tasks

[Vanessa]

where there doesn't full ass task.

[Xander]

Full ass tasks where you don't need to do this type of thing. All right. Is oral a part of foreplay? He thinks, yes, but I think foreplay is more like kissing and touching. This is a good. This is a good question. This is. I feel like it's. It depends.

[Vanessa]

Honestly, I think it doesn't matter.

[Xander]

Yes.

[Vanessa]

So we. Okay. We have a guide called our ultimate foreplay guides that teaches you how to give your partner the most incredible, best ever. So good. I can't even speak for 10 minutes afterwards. Sexual experience.

[Xander]

It is our best selling guide and our most hated title.

[Vanessa]

Well, we say by us.

[Xander]

By us.

[Vanessa]

By us. Yeah. No, it's our most popular guide, best reviewed guide by far. But we say on the first page of the guide, we actually hate the word foreplay. We use it because that's the word that everybody uses, but we hate that word because it implies that these are the things you do before intercourse, meaning that they are lesser than. Foreplay is like the main event, the big thing, the home run, the whole enchilada, that kind of thing. But foreplay is just. It's just the things that you do on the way there. And most of us don't, in male, female relationships, don't spend very much time on foreplay. We treat it as something that we just have to breeze through. So. So we have oral sex in our ultimate foreplay guides. We have categorized oral sex as foreplay, but it does, but it's also sex.

[Xander]

Oral sex.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. It does fall under that umbrella of like why we hate the word foreplay. Oral sex absolutely is sex. It can be. You know, when I was dating, I would rather have intercourse with somebody than oral sex. Oral sex felt so much more intimate and vulnerable than having intercourse. But yeah, I think that it's. It's still. It counts as sex. Absolutely.

[Xander]

I mean, especially because it is something that could absolutely be the main event. It could absolutely be the thing, you know, okay, we spent a couple minutes kissing each other, we spent a couple minutes touching each other, and then we spent 10 minutes on oral sex. Whether you had intercourse or not afterwards, like, that was the main event, the oral sex that you had. So yeah, it's easier to just consider it's all sex. I think that oral sex and manual hand jobs, fingering, these can fall into either category of like, is it a. Is it a. We're warming up to spend more time on something else. Or they could take the form of this is the main event where we, you know, we want to spend 10 minutes like fingering each other or, you know, 10 minutes going down on each other, giving blowjobs, etc. So yeah, who cares? Who cares? Because it can be either.

[Vanessa]

It also reminds me our social media employee brought. Brought something to our attention. There's this tweet that somebody wrote about our content. She didn't name us in it, sadly, but this tweet blew up. It has like got like 12 million views or something like that where she was talking about how she said there's this sex therapist and her husband and she made a reel about how. How they make out every night before bed. And I need men to understand that kissing is non sexual. Or I think I need men to understand the importance of non sexual touch. And in the comments, where there were like thousands of comments, it turned into this debate of is kissing sexual or non sexual? And so what do you think about that? Do we think kissing is sexual or non sexual?

[Xander]

I think once you get a tongue involved, I think it is sexual now, but. But here's what I would say about our nighttime makeout routine. Yes, I do think it is sexual. I like it. It gives me a bit of a sexual zing.

[Vanessa]

Gives you the zing?

[Xander]

It gives me a zing.

[Vanessa]

The Xander zing.

[Xander]

It gives me a zing. But it reminds me of the sexual nature of our relationship, which I think is a huge positive thing. It reminds me that we have a sexual relationship whether we are actively having sex in that moment or not. For me, it created this positive feedback loop of like, oh, I can enjoy a sexual moment at any time during the day and it's supportive of me having an active sex drive rather than it feeling like I need to be completely turned off until this one moment where I'm allowed to be turned on.

[Vanessa]

That's a really good point. Yeah, I've been thinking about that question because. Yeah, I didn't get a clear answer. Come to, like, I didn't have a clear answer immediately come to mind as soon as I saw that. But I think I like your categorization there. I think a peck doesn't feel necessarily sexual to me.

[Xander]

Well, yeah, because also many, many cultures peck each other. Like. Yeah, like platonically. Like platonically. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, like, like if you go to France, you're gonna get two kisses on the cheek.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think a peck is not necessarily sexual. Could a pec.

[Xander]

I mean, apparently. I mean. Well, no. What if you're like, like, like, like a parent. A parent kisses their child on the lips? There's.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Xander]

And there's clearly nothing sexual about that.

[Vanessa]

Well, it's definitely. It's context dependent and person dependent too. But yeah. Yeah.

[Xander]

But there Is no context where a. Where a tongue kiss is not sexual.

[Vanessa]

Oh, that's how I kiss all my friends, especially the male ones, the plutonic ones. I do think, yeah, that getting the tongue involved makes it sexual.

[Xander]

Sorry, I meant platonic. There's no case where, like. Where, like, playing tongue. Tongue hockey is totally platonic.

[Vanessa]

Tongue hockey. Tonsil hockey.

[Xander]

Tongue hockey.

[Vanessa]

Tonsil hockey. Tongue hockey is not a thing.

[Xander]

Yeah, it is.

[Vanessa]

It's. Oh, my God, you are turning into a. Vanessa, you're getting it wrong.

[Xander]

We're wrong. Look it up.

[Vanessa]

It's not tongue hockey. It's tonsil tongue hockey. Okay.

[Xander]

Yeah. What's a tonsil thing?

[Vanessa]

It says both tonsil hockey and tongue hockey are slang idioms used to describe intense French kissing. But it says tongue hockey. This is less of an established idiom, but a highly literal alternative way.

[Xander]

Okay, well, where I grew up, people said tongue hockey.

[Vanessa]

Really? I've never heard that in my life. Let me just Google tongue hockey. Tongue hockey.

[Xander]

What do you think you're gonna find?

[Vanessa]

Okay, it can refer to kissing passionately with tongues or to the classic ice hockey debate about whether to wear skates. Wear skate. Wait, Whether to wear skate sockets with tongues tucked inside or tucked outside of your shin guard.

[Xander]

Right, okay.

[Vanessa]

Tongue hockey. Okay, let us. We need to, like, put polls up on some of these. Tell us, like, where did you grow up hearing tongue hockey or tongue.

[Xander]

Like, let me bring up.

[Vanessa]

I want to go back to what you were saying, that I think it's really important for us to have sexual moments with each other that aren't leading to sex.

[Xander]

Yes.

[Vanessa]

I think that's actually one of the secrets of having a great sex life and maintaining that thread of. Of an intimate connection between the two of you.

[Xander]

Yeah. Because I think I would go further and say if you are trying to insist that kissing. And again, you know, with that whole argument in that. In that tweet or that X thread or whatever, I don't know, like, you

[Vanessa]

know, I don't know what to call them.

[Xander]

I know saying X sounds so dumb. Everyone here knows it as tweet, but, like, whatever. I don't know if people are arguing, you know, are we talking about, like, a pack versus a tongue kiss? I'm guessing that people are meaning more making out, which most people assume includes tongue. I think that if you're insisting that that is non sexual, like, you are actually actively or kind of subtly disconnecting yourself from your own sexuality and your own sex drive because you're saying, oh, like, no, like, I want to have these Specific moments that are completely non sexual. And it's like, no, like we are in sexual relationships with our, you know, long term partner with a spouse. Like that's what it is. And if we are denying something, you know, denying our sexuality for majority of the day, majority of the time, like that makes it harder to switch to being sexual. Like, no, like we are sexual beings. We have a sexual beings. We are sexual beings.

[Vanessa]

I have a sexual.

[Xander]

You do have a sexual bean.

[Vanessa]

You do.

[Xander]

I don't. I mean, actually I'd have a, you know, my, my prostate maybe internally an internal being. But no, we are sexual beings and I think that we do ourselves a disservice when we deny that, especially in our relationship. I think that can be, that can be a disorienting thing. So I think that it's easy to get confused with non sexual touch because touch can definitely. There can be plenty of touch that is highly sexual and then there can be other touch that is not explicitly sexual. Like I hold your hand or I put my arm around you, we're snuggled up on the couch. That's not explicitly sexual. That doesn't mean that it can't ever be sexual. But I think that if we are like, oh, I. We need to have this explicitly non sexual kissing with tongues, which is an activity that in other moments can be very highly sexual. Like, that creates a weird distinction that I think actually hurts us.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, I totally agree. I think it's a really good point. Point. Should you always have one side of the bed or should it switch every couple of months?

[Xander]

I feel like we always get this one.

[Vanessa]

This is a serial question.

[Xander]

This is a wild one.

[Vanessa]

Every couple months actually.

[Xander]

You know, you want to, you want to hear something crazy? My. I've been having some, like, I've been having some, some back pain for the last couple of months, which I think has been like, I keep exacerbating in my sleep. I think I'm finally over it. Fingers crossed. So I went to go, I'm not switching sides. I didn't know. I went to go see my physiotherapist for a couple of sessions to give me some PT exercises. And I, I love this guy. He's great. He is amazing. We were talking about, like, which way I was sleeping and stuff. And he was like, oh, well, like, maybe you should switch sides with Vanessa for like a couple months so that you can. Because he was like trying to encourage me to sleep on my, my left side sometimes, which I never do because I like to be on the right towards the edge of the bed. Like, I don't know why. That's just what I like. But he was like, oh, yeah, no, you should just switch. If that's so you like to be facing that way, then switch sides. And I was like, you're crazy. I'm not doing that.

[Vanessa]

We have switched sides, though, before, I think.

[Xander]

Was it once?

[Vanessa]

Once, yeah.

[Xander]

And it was. It was for safety reasons. Right. You wanted. You wanted to be. Or wait, no, I thought it wasn't. Was it you wanted to be further from the door or, like, further from the window or.

[Vanessa]

I generally like to be further from the door. Apartment here.

[Xander]

I'm closer to the door, but yeah. It was in San Francisco, though, and I slept on the side that was furthest from the door and furthest from the bathroom. But what. Did I initially sleep on the right side of that bed?

[Vanessa]

I think so.

[Xander]

God, I can't even. Yeah, I feel like as long as I can remember, I've been sleeping on the. The left.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. When you're looking at the bed.

[Xander]

Yeah, when you're looking at the bed.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. I mean, but that was early days.

[Xander]

It was early days. We didn't know what we liked. And then we were like, this is wrong. We're switching.

[Vanessa]

Do whatever you want to do in your own home. But the idea of switching every couple of months is absolutely insane.

[Xander]

The day you see me on the right side of the bed, you'll know we have a real problem.

[Vanessa]

Okay, let's tackle this last one really quickly. My husband wants me to shave down there. I get razor burn and ingrowns. Who gets to decide?

[Xander]

Well, for shaving, I would say your razor burn and ingrowns are making that decision for you.

[Vanessa]

This is an interesting one because I think it comes up. Well, we don't really know what are the husband's exact reasons for it. We hear people of all genders will sometimes bring this up with, like, it makes giving oral sex easier to have the hair like. Like trimmed or not there. It might be also a, like, aesthetic preference. I like the way, you know, I like being able to see the whole thing. I like the way it looks without any hair there. I think everybody's allowed to have their own preferences, but ultimately it comes down to the person whose body it is that gets to decide what they want to do. So if you don't want to remove your pubic hair, then you get to make that decision. That being said, though, I have an in between suggestion for you. Shaving is the worst thing to do, actually, to bring it back To Love Island.

[Xander]

This is very teenage. This is, like, a teenage thing. It was, like, the only. I feel like it was the only option that, you know, like, teenagers know about. So, yeah, I'm just shaving it.

[Vanessa]

No, even all these. I mean, they're barely older than teenagers. But on Love Island, Melanie, when they had that, the whole Casa Amore night, she's like, we shaved our cold cooters just for this. And, like, we don't even get to play the heart rate challenge with the boys. So anyway, I just, like, cringed when I heard that phrase. So shaving is the absolute worst thing to do. It's super irritating. You are just gonna get razor burns and ingrowns. I've met one woman in my life who was like, oh, no, it's super easy on me. It's the easiest thing to do. You, my friend, should look into sugaring. That's my personal favorite. Or waxing. They're just so much. They're painful, and they can be expensive, but they are just so much better on your skin. You're not gonna get razor burn. So much less likely to get ingrown. So I recommend that or maybe just a little trim. If it's purely about a. Like, hey, it's just easier for me to give you oral sex when it's a little bit trimmed. Maybe consider that. But again, it's your body. I think it's your body, and you get to decide.

[Xander]

You request that I trim every now and then. And if you were to request, like, a different thing, like, if you wanted me to be. Be totally bare, like, I would absolutely do that for you.

[Vanessa]

Would you?

[Xander]

Yeah, for sure. If I was like, if she's gonna think it's super sexy for me to look a certain way, absolutely. I'd.

[Vanessa]

But what if you had to, like, get it sugared and it was super painful?

[Xander]

I would give it. I'd at least give it a try.

[Vanessa]

Well, thank you.

[Xander]

Yeah, I absolutely would.

[Vanessa]

I mean, I do your preference.

[Xander]

I would. I mean, it feels exciting to me to be like, if. If you were like, that's gonna be super hot, I would be like, well, well, yeah, I want to experience, like, showing that off to you.

[Vanessa]

It is, like, I think it is a little bit more complicated for women because there's a whole lot of, like, weird socialization and stuff around, like, yeah, all that. That comes up around pubic hair. Pubic hair is surprisingly political. But I. I do think that's a good point that you bring up that we. You know, maybe there are certain ways that we can be excited about doing things and our partner finds sexy.

[Xander]

To be fair, part of it is nobody has ever, ever asked or, like, insisted that I do something that I didn't want to do. So I've not ever had that experience. That being said, that if, like, if I saw, like that that was going to be something that really lit you up sexually, like, that would. That sounds exciting to me.

[Vanessa]

I feel like we're gonna get off this and you're like, would that I don't need you to remove all your pupic hair. I don't. I don't want to see you totally bald down there. All right, well, that is it for tiebreakers. We would love to hear if you agree with us, disagree with us. You can leave a comment on Spotify or you can come over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander and let us know what you think. But join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.