← Pillow Talks
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- [00:00]
A
Yeah, you always, you see a bunch of effort being put in at the beginning, but then never afterwards. And so a lot of us have internalized that and believed, like, I locked it down, I put a ring on it. We're married, we're good now. And the idea of, no, you have to actively work on your relationship for the rest of your life.
- [00:21]
B
Yeah, it's a work in progress, can
- [00:23]
A
feel a little bit exhausting, but the reality is that fine is where relationships go to die. Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20
- [00:44]
B
years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.
- [00:53]
A
Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So everybody knows the big stuff that ends relationships, like the explosive fights, the infidelity, like, the big stuff. But the reality is that it's really the small stuff that hurts a relationship, that makes the two of you start feeling like roommates. I think the small stuff is the most important, both in a good and in a bad way. Like, with the good stuff, we often think, oh, I need to make the grand gesture. We need to do the big vacation. We need to, like, do something big to save our relationship. But actually what helps the relationship more is, is small, intentional, everyday things repeated frequently.
- [01:53]
B
I'd also venture a guess that most of those sort of, like, the big things that you think about that end a relationship, say, cheating or, you know, being on totally different pages, money wise or kid wise, those things typically, of course, every now and then they do, but they typically don't come out of nowhere. They typically come out of all of these little things adding up and adding up and creating some distance between the two of you. Right. So we could be focused on, hey, let's just do everything we can to make sure, like, none of this whole. None of these big explosive things happen. But most of us end up missing the forest for the trees. And really, we should be focusing on all these little things because if we can stop all these little things from happening, most people are never going to get to that point where there's that big massive rift.
- [02:47]
A
So we recently did a poll of our community, and we found that 67% of couples, so two out of every three couples report feeling more like roommates than romantic partners.
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B
That's pretty serious.
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A
Wild two and three.
- [03:03]
B
Yeah, let's. Let's not pass over that stat. Wow. Like, that's crazy.
- [03:07]
A
It's absolutely massive. So we wanted to do an episode to talk about, to uncover, like, what are these little things that often go unnoticed that we brush under the rug? Or we don't think of or see, like, see them as a big deal, but they're actually having a much, much bigger impact than we realize. Because the truth is, we don't fall out of love overnight. We tend to drift apart slowly. And that might be a little hint at what's to come. But before we get into it, we wanted to make a quick request. We would be so grateful if you enjoy pillow talks, if we've ever made you laugh, if we've ever given you a tip that was helpful in your relationship. We would be so appreciative if you could take half a second to hit the subscribe button or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast right now. I know it sounds like such a small thing, but the vast majority of people who listen, I don't do that. And it actually makes a really big difference in the podcast being discoverable to new people. So we would really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much for taking literally just a split second. You're on your screen right now. Just tap it. Just tap that little button. Okay. So today's episode is organized around what we called the drift framework. We made a good old anagram, Right? That's what they're called. Anagram, where, like, each letter stands for a different thing.
- [04:34]
B
You know what? I am not positive that sounds right, but, you know, or acrostic.
- [04:41]
A
Is that. No, no, wait. An anagram is a word or phrase formed by rearranging the letters of a different word or a straight.
- [04:47]
B
Yeah, no, it's not an anagram. It's a. Oh, my God. It is on the tip of my tongue.
- [04:51]
A
Oh, yeah. An acrostic. A poem or word composition in which the first letter of each line spells out a specific word message or the Alphabet. When read vertically, it's an acrostic.
- [05:00]
B
Okay. I feel like that was a different.
- [05:01]
A
You're getting a little vocab lesson with the episode today. It's an acrostic. So we wanted to, like, create this framework that was easily memorizable. I will admit we fudged this a little bit. We were. We were trying to make it fit in. So there. There are a couple of them that are maybe a little bit Of a reach. But we always have fun trying to, like, put things in frameworks. I think it makes it more memorable. You're more likely to, like, remember these things. So we came up with. We started with like, what do we are the top five small things that actually have an outsized impact. And then we tried to figure out, okay, from those five, how can we come up with some sort of cutesy name for it. And drift works well because this is also what we're talking about.
- [05:45]
B
Like, we drift, this is what happens
- [05:46]
A
away from each other. It's not this massive rupture, this huge fight. It's a slow, subtle, but just as damaging drift. The good news though, is that once you start spotting these patterns, they are easily shiftable. I mean, that's the thing about look. Looking for the small stuff is that they're small things so you can change them.
- [06:08]
B
Yeah, it's easier to move the needle. I think it's so. We're so often get obsessed with these big, huge goals and big, huge things that we're trying to change. I think we set ourselves up for failure, Especially in. In a relationship where it's not just a matter of individual effort. Like it is a joint thing thing. There's complicated dynamics involved. It's not like you having a specific goal for yourself. And we got so fixated on trying to change this big, huge thing rather than thinking about what are some small things that we actually have a real shot of changing quickly. And I think that you would be surprised if you started setting more kind of reasonable, smaller, more defined little relationship. Goals isn't even the right word. Just little things to do. You might actually make way more progress on the big stuff than if you were to just be like, we gotta get way more connected because we've been so disconnected for so long. Like, that's a big hard. That's a big hard thing.
- [07:11]
A
A big hard what?
- [07:13]
B
A big hard challenge. Wow. But yeah, no, that's a. That's a big thing that's not clearly defined. And each party is going to have different ideas of what that means. And it's easy to fall back into old patterns. But if instead you look at some of the small things that you actually could impact tonight, you might be surprised at what kind of change you can make.
- [07:32]
A
So here's what drift stands for. The D is for devices steal attention. This is too much time on our phones. The R is for routines replace romance. And that's nice alliteration. Another vocab word there.
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B
Triple R's.
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A
Triple R routines replace Romance.
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B
It should have been Derr Rift.
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A
I stands for indifference. And this is all about thinking that, like, fine is good enough. Spoiler alert. It is not.
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B
Fine is not a good word.
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A
F is forgetting to appreciate. That might have been a little bit of a stretch there, but, you know, it works. So it's like taking each other for granted. And T is touch becomes transactional. A little bit of alliteration there, too. So we're going to go through these one at a time. Let's start off with devices. Steal attention. You guys already fucking know this. Your phone is getting in the way of your relationship. And, like, we all know it. This is not a surprise to literally any person on the planet. Any. And yet none of us are doing anything about it. What tends to happen is it is so easy for us to get really annoyed at our partner's behavior. Oh, he's on his phone again. He's not even looking at me. How much time has he spent on that thing? He's in the bathroom for an hour just scrolling through Instagram. But we are not willing to be honest with ourselves about our own phone behaviors, which are just as bad. The thing about phones is I think that in the vast majority of relationships, both partners are just as bad with their phones, but we do it at slightly different times. And sometimes. Yeah.
- [09:22]
B
Or slightly different ways or whatever. Yeah.
- [09:24]
A
It's like, you know, you'll be on your phone in this moment where I'm trying to talk to you and I'm annoyed at you, and then one minute later, you might be trying to talk to me, and I'm on my phone in that minute, you know, so it's just like. It's this horrible way that we wind up really missing each other, and then
- [09:41]
B
probably each partner is convinced that the other partner is worse than they are. Right.
- [09:46]
A
Yeah.
- [09:46]
B
I think on top of that, too, you can. I think a lot of people, even once they become aware of it and together you have some kind of agreement that you want to make it better. It's so easy to fall into a bit of, like, a diffusion of responsibility where it's like, okay, well, we know it's a problem and we both want to do better. But then it's like you look over at your partner and they're on their phone, and you're like, okay, well, they're on their phone, so it's okay for me, like, okay, well, I'll pull it out. Instead of making a bid for their connection, rightly or wrongly, they were. They were just looking something up for 10 seconds, they put their phone down to come back to you, and they look and they see you on your phone. You know, then all of a sudden, both of you had good intentions. And then 10 minutes later, you're both right back. You're both, you know, giving each other permission essentially, to go back to the bad habit.
- [10:34]
A
Okay, here are some stats that are pretty awful. The average person checks their phone 144 times a day. I honestly think that, like, these stats are bad, but I honestly think they're even worse because these stats came from. From a study. I think it was about three years ago. Like, it's for sure. I'm sure it's worse by now.
- [10:54]
B
Well, and also the crazy thing is 144, let's say that you are awake for 14 hours a day.
- [11:03]
A
16 hours.
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B
16 hours a day.
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A
Well, it's like 10 times an hour.
- [11:07]
B
Yeah. Or less. And that's actually like, at 14, that's about 10 times an hour. At 16 hours a day, that's actually less than 10 per hour. And I'm gonna be honest, unless we're recording a podcast, I'm not checking my phone because our phones are recording our video. But for the most part, in any given day, like checking 10 times an hour, that doesn't seem that crazy.
- [11:31]
A
I know. Okay. The average person spends five hours and 16 minutes a day on their phone and watches three to four hours per day of TV. That is a lot.
- [11:41]
B
Not necessarily on their phone, but just. I'm assuming this is.
- [11:45]
A
This is D devices. So, you know, phones and tv. And we didn't even include gaming time, too. I remember looking at that stat. I think it was another. The average person is like another two to four hours a day gaming.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And, you know, a lot of people don't game. So the people who do game are like, yeah, massively.
- [12:05]
B
Or that's poor. That's considering, like, Candy Crush.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Which. Oh, man, I'm so glad that I cut, like, iPhone games because I've never been. I've never been a gamer. I wasn't allowed to have video games as a kid. And so as a result, I think, like, I just kind of didn't have those developed dopamine pathways. I. I've, like, tried to get into video games. I just get bored. I'm like, man, this game is too complicated. I can't figure it out. I got better things to do.
- [12:31]
A
Honestly, they're an ick for me. If you were super into gaming, I don't think we would be together.
- [12:38]
B
I really just like Mario Kart. I miss playing Mario Kart. We could pull our switch out and play Mario Kart, but the switch makes me not so sick. It's like, it's too good.
- [12:47]
A
No. I don't know. There's just something about watching somebody. They're so glazed over and lost in the game that I'm like, I don't like it.
- [12:55]
B
Yeah. So anyway. But I know I used to play, like, Candy Crush and random little games. I'm so glad I cut that habit out, because it's just like. Yeah, it just loses time. Now I just listen to audiobooks, and
- [13:10]
A
you spend a lot of time on Instagram looking at reels. I mean, we both do. Like, we. I want to be totally honest and vulnerable here. Like, we both don't have the best phone habits, and I think about this all the time, and I think this is the experience most people. Most people have. I think frequently, Fuck, I'm on my phone so much. Or, like, Xander's trying to talk to me, and I'm, like, looking at my phone instead of looking at him, or, oh, my God, what just happened to the last 20 minutes? I swear I was like, oh, I'm just gonna watch one reel while I, like, walk from one room to the other. And then all of a sudden, 20 minutes are gone. So, like, I have these thoughts frequently, and I will do something about it. And then it's like, a few days later, I'm back to doing the same patterns. I mean, I think it's really important for us to acknowledge our phones are addicting. Social media is addicting. It's. You know, it's not just a pure willpower issue for a lot of people. It's like, it's just so easy to get sucked back in. But both of us. We spend too much time on our phones. We both, like. Yeah, we do miss opportunities for connection because we're on our phones a lot.
- [14:17]
B
True. Are we drifting apart, babe?
- [14:21]
A
I don't think so. We do spend a lot of other quality time together.
- [14:24]
B
Yeah, we sure do.
- [14:25]
A
I think that we. We could both stand to improve our PH habits. I mean, I think. Yeah, it's. It gets challenging when you're, like, you're on a date night, and you feel like you just, like, want to check your phone. You know, you feel that impulse to check.
- [14:39]
B
Yeah. Where it's like, seriously, what are you going to see on there that's better than what you're doing currently?
- [14:43]
A
I know, but you. You feel it. I mean, there was a. I know. There was a study done that Said, even just having your phone out on the table, even if it's face down so you like on silent, you can't even see or hear any notifications. Just having it out in your eye, like eyeline, you're way more likely to want to check it than you are if it's like fully out of the wallet.
- [15:04]
B
Which is a problem because I like, if we go out to dinner, I don't like it being in my pocket. It's like I put on the table. I usually put my wallet on top of it so that it's not really as visible. But yeah, it's like, I don't want to. I don't have a purse, so I can't shove it away in there. I could just leave it in the car, I guess.
- [15:22]
A
So, yeah. I mean, like I was saying earlier, we have this tendency to justify our own behavior. Like, I'm just spending a couple minutes, we're like, oh, we were talking about something and I just got my phone out because I wanted to show him something that's related to it. But I think the experience that we have on the other end of our partner's usage is we wind up feeling like our partner is more invested in their phone than they are in us. Like their phone matters more to them than we do.
- [15:46]
B
Well, interestingly, that's just classic fundamental attribution error from, like, intro psychology, where it's like, when you are doing something or when something, you know, whether if it's, you know, a behavior that someone else might perceive as negative, or when something happens to you that is negative, you are going to write it off due to the situation. There was a situational reason why you needed to do something that wasn't. That wasn't about you and your character. Whereas when someone else does something, like when something bad happens to someone else, or say your partner is on their phone just as much as you are, while you would write your habit off as, oh, well, this, this was practical and that one, this was for work and blah, blah, blah. You're more likely to see your partner do the same thing and go, oh, well, they have a problem with their phone, or oh, that bad thing happened to them because they are, you know, they are a bad driver. Not like, oh, something random happened that got in the way of them, you know, being a good driver and they got in an accident. So it's just. So it's good to be aware of that. That study after study after study finds that that is how almost everyone is always perceiving the world.
- [16:56]
A
We have A stray pug wandering around the podcast right now. I tried to give Maggie a little chew to keep her occupied, but they
- [17:04]
B
never keep her occupied.
- [17:05]
A
She's been a real wanderer lately. She's just like wandering around amongst all the tripods about to knock everything off,
- [17:13]
B
charging cords, charging cables everywhere. It's a real disaster.
- [17:17]
A
If you're watching the video on YouTube,
- [17:19]
B
you might see her at the bottom
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A
of your screen and you might see her sitting on my lap in minutes if we cannot get her to settle down. But anyways, okay, so we wanted to give you guys some quick wins coming out of all of these because, again, we want to keep this small.
- [17:33]
B
Yeah.
- [17:34]
A
I am not trying to say you need to put your phones away and never touch them again and pay complete attention to your partner. Like, that's not realistic. It's just not going to happen. Right. So let's come up with something smaller, more doable that you might actually follow through on. So here is our challenge to you. Come up with some sort of ritualistic time that the two of you can have without your phones. And again, keep it simple. So could it be like 20 minutes of just having a real conversation? And you're gonna do that one time a week? Like, pick a day. Oh, like Tuesdays are both pretty easy for us. So Tuesdays at 7:00, clock, that's our 20 minutes. Maybe it's, we're going to take the dogs on a walk, and when we'd walk them, we leave our phones at home. Maybe it's, we're going to have one date night a week and we leave the phones in the car when it's date night. Like pick something small that you can repeat on a weekly basis and try to commit to that. Okay, she made it up to the lap. All right, let's move on. If you hear a little licking in the background, she's cleaning her paws on my lap.
- [18:45]
B
Well, before we move on to the next one, I also want to say I think that trying to have a clear, definable. Here's 20 minutes where we're trying to do this is so much better. You're setting yourself up for more long term success than if you do what most people do, which is they go, they get really frustrated after some, you know, both people are feeling really unseen or not cared for because everyone's on their phone and everyone's really frustrated. You're like, oh, we have such a big problem. We got to take drastic action and all right, we're. We only get two hours of two hours a week on our phones or something like that, right? And I'm like, okay, great, that's a great goal. But how the hell are you going to enforce that? This falls apart so quick and it's not really enforceable or that easily measurable anyway, right? So most people go, oh, God. And then they come away feeling like really incapable as opposed to something really small and definable like this, where you can set yourselves up for a win. We can leave our phones in the car. We can leave the phone at home while we take the dog for a walk for 20 minutes or whatever it is, right? And then you get to have the experience of, oh, this actually feels good, right? Oh, this was nice. We were able to do it. And that allows you, you know, that gives you the ability to actually start setting more goals around the phone because you both see the benefit to it. We want more of that. Okay, let's take action to give us more of a good thing rather than, oh, we got to like, do less of a bad thing.
- [20:20]
A
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- [21:11]
B
Well, the reason for that is because it is frozen fresh off the boat and then it is delivered to you frozen. And so it has not been defrosted. Frozen. Defrosted. Frozen. Like you are getting a frozen fish that came off the boat and was immediately frozen.
- [21:25]
A
It's 100% wild caught, never farmed, no antibiotics, GMOs or additives. Sustainably sourced as well. They also have 100% money back guarantee they'll give you a full refund, no questions asked if you're not completely satisfied. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com pillow for $35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com pillow for $35 off your. Thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode and for all the delicious fish. So let's move on to the R routine replaces romance. We also call this one mistaking logistics for intimacy. And this one can be a little bit sneaky because you might think that you're connecting or having quality time or conversations, but in actuality, you're not.
- [22:27]
B
Yeah, you're like, oh, yeah, we're t. We text each other non stop all day. Yeah, let me, let me, let me see the receipts, let me see the text messages. And I'll tell you if you're really texting each other, like as a married couple or as logistical partners.
- [22:42]
A
Yeah. I mean, if you're just texting or talking about things like, like, who's picking up the kids today? Did you pay the electrical bill? Whose turn is it to take out the trash? What are we going to do this weekend? Like, those are more surface level conversations that are not creating actual intimacy between the two of you. So it's really important for couples to be able to keep dreaming together, to keep having meaningful conversations together, to keep sharing feelings and vulnerabilities. And, you know, let's be real. Like, life is very full. It is very busy. There are a lot of logistics to manage. So. So again, we're not, like, we're not being extreme with this episode here. We're not saying, like, never talk about logistics ever again. You just write love letters to each other all day. But this one is just so sneaky because it really makes you start feeling like you are roommates or business partners rather than romantic partners.
- [23:42]
B
It almost gives you, like, a permission or a desire to then, like, have a break from your partner. Cause you're like, oh, God. Like, I've just been, like, I've been talking to you all day about, like, boring logistical stuff. Like, I need a break. Like, I want some me time. Yeah, you. You don't want to be communicating about stuff all day long that makes you want to have a break from your partner. I think that it's this double whammy of people going like, oh, well, yeah, no, like, we don't need to spend any extra time because, like, we just literally talk to each other for hours. And now I'm bored.
- [24:18]
A
We recently did an episode about having more fun in your relationship, and I can't remember the stats that we had from that one, but it was a pretty awful stat of couples saying, like, they just don't have any fun in their relationship.
- [24:30]
B
Yeah, most couples.
- [24:31]
A
Yeah, the vast majority, and I think this is a big part of that, is that we're just talking about logistics, which are boring. It's one of the. I mean, again, we have to talk about them. It's part of life. But it's one of the worst, most boring parts of life. And I think so many couples feel really bad about themselves and kind of beat themselves up or wonder what's wrong with our relationship that it just feels so bleh. It's not fun, it's not exciting. I missed those early stages of the relationship, and we're failing to realize, like, we're not doing anything fun with each other. We're not creating any real intimacy, real connection. We're just fucking talking about logistics. Of course it doesn't feel special.
- [25:15]
B
Yeah, it's transactional at that point.
- [25:17]
A
There also is another statistic we've talked about before. I think it's something like the average couple has face to face conversations for 35 minutes a week, which is crazy. Yeah, 35 minutes per week. But the vast majority of those 35 minutes are just transactional conversations.
- [25:36]
B
Oh, yeah, that's. That's right. That was. I was about. I was about to say 35 minutes a week. Once you strip out all logistical stuff. No, the logistical stuff is included. It's that most of that logistical stuff also ends up happening over text message. So it's like you're not even face to face having most of those logistical conversations. You know, it happens over the phone, over text message, whatever. Like, you're off doing your own things, trying to do stuff and talking to each other about the stuff that you're doing rather than talking about any of the exciting stuff.
- [26:07]
A
So you can go in two directions here to get a little quick win. You can try to bring in more, like, questions, more curiosity, more fun with each other. We're actually gonna talk about that in a different tip in the next one, so I'm gonna put that to the side. But, like, that's one way to do it, is like, bring more of the good stuff into your relationship. Another way to do it is to try to dial down on the logistical conversations. Or dial down is not really the right way of saying it, but put more of a container around the logistical conversations. So I have two options for you for how you can do this. I think the best option, and I will admit this one takes more effort than some of the other quick wins we're going to be talking about. But I do think that the best option is to pick one day of the week. That is a logistics day. Because the thing about logistics is it often feels pressing and sometimes there are, there are things that, like somebody has to pick up the kids today. We can't like wait to Thursday to talk about who's picking the kids up on Monday. But a lot of the logistics stuff does not actually, actually need to be talked about in the moment, like figuring out when are we gonna schedule that doctor's appointment or who's gonna take the return back. It's not going to be the end of the world if you wait a couple of days on that. So you could have something like Tuesday is logistics day. So anything that we need to talk about, we talk about on Tuesday. But if something comes up on Monday, write it down in your phone so you make sure you don't forget, have a little logistics list or like a to discuss list. But you only actually talk about it on Tuesday. If your life is just too busy and too complicated and we're like, there's no way that that can happen. Like, we do have to talk about logistics, like multiple times throughout the week. You could flip it around and instead do like, pick one day a week where you cannot talk about logistics. So no logistics that whole day. Maybe it's like a Saturday works best for you. Or, you know, maybe in your schedule of Wednesday works better, but that's like this sacred day where you're just not going to talk about the fucking logistics.
- [28:16]
B
Yeah. Or I mean, you could also kind of split the difference a bit and be like, hey, if it has to be a daily thing, because we can't systematize what's going on, like there, there's no consistency in the schedule. So even if we assigned, like, these days I'm responsible for this, and those days you're responsible for that. Like, that won't work because it's constantly changing. Like, what you could do is say, okay, well, obviously we can't do just one day a week as logistics day, but maybe you could assign a time every day where it's like, hey, from 8 to 9pm Every night we do the check in and we talk about what's on deck for the next day. It's sort of a baby step to forcing people to come up with better systems for stuff. Because I think we fall into this trap of it just being like, oh, yeah. No, it's like we're just, you know, like, it's basically like you're playing pickup with life. How can we get out of that and try to figure out everything for the week? Or everything had A better system so that this stuff doesn't get in the way every day or.
- [29:15]
A
Another idea that just came to me in the moment is maybe you agree that we only talk about logistics over text. So, like, when we're in person, when we're face to face, we really put more of that emphasis on, like, having real conversations, asking better questions. And, like, the logistics are confined to the text messages.
- [29:35]
B
Yeah. And then that way, there's, like, a clear record of it. There's no, like, oh, well, I don't remember you saying this. Or when you said xyz. I interpreted it this way and you interpreted it that way. At least that way. Like, there's. There's. There's a paper trail behind it.
- [29:49]
A
So, yeah, like a spreadsheet or something where you, like, write down everything that's done and assign it to who you know. But, like, yeah, we're. The whole idea here is that you're just creating some sort of container around it so it's not leaching out into every moment of your life. Okay. Number three, we've got our I. Indifference. This is when we start thinking that fine is good enough. And this one is very sneaky. And I think it affects the vast majority of relationships, because when things seem fine, it feels fine. Nobody is complaining. Nobody's fighting. There's not these, like, big blowouts. It's fine. It's fine. Right?
- [30:36]
B
It's okay. Right?
- [30:38]
A
Yeah. We kind of start thinking that that must be good enough. But what is actually happening is you are staying on the surface and you are missing the opportunity to have a genuinely deep, meaningful relationship. And the curiosity that you used to have for each other, that was part of the thing that pulled the two of you together and made you so into each other at the beginning, that curiosity just disappears.
- [31:09]
B
Here's a wild way to think about it. If you magically woke up and were back into your dating era, you weren't with your partner anymore. If you went on a date with somebody new and your friends were like, oh, hey, how'd it go? You're like, it was fine. Like, would your friends be like, oh, yeah, you should definitely go on a second date or, like, a third date or a fourth date. Right. Like, would you be like, yeah, you know, I'm thinking maybe of getting into a relationship with this person. They're. They're fine. Like, your friends would not be like, oh, fine, that's amazing. You should definitely commit your life to this person. Right. And yet we find ourselves doing that. Once we are deep into the relationship
- [31:53]
A
that's a really good point.
- [31:54]
B
Yeah, it's. It's fine. I'm not saying just because it's fine. You need to go divorce this person, but we need to change. Move the bar. Move the bar back up. And that's, That's a challenge for both of us. And it's not your partner's fault that things are fine. Like, it is both of your fault. Like, if you're, if you're the person that's saying things are fine, like, you are very much to blame. I hate to say that, but you are very much to blame because you have basically been slowly and subtly just lowering the bar constantly. And, you know, and it's going to be. It's. It's a challenge to. To raise the bar. The problem most people get into is they immediately go, okay, actually, everything is not fine, and everything has got to change. And your partner's like, whoa, what the hell? Like, you literally trained me that this was okay.
- [32:39]
A
Yeah. I think this comes from a place of overwhelm. A lot of us are very overwhelmed in a lot of different areas of our life. We feel like we're working so, so hard, like, at work, trying to make money, trying to keep the house afloat, trying to raise kids, trying to, like, juggle all these balls. And it's very easy and tempting to just want to have one area in your life that you don't have to work on, and that can just be okay. And our relationship is often the thing that we fall back on. And we'll talk a little bit more about this in the next one, actually forgetting to appreciate. But it's just so easy for us to deprioritize our relationship and just feel like I'm doing so many things in so many other areas. Like, I just. I just want this to be okay. And if it's just fine, if nobody's complaining, there's no fights, like, it's. It's okay. Everything's okay. And so I sympathize with that. And it's also like the socialization that we get, too. We've talked about this before, that all we ever see on tv, in the movies, and it's a whole big thing about, like, getting the girl or, like, overcoming that first big obstacle, and then it's happily ever after. And you never see anything after that.
- [33:55]
B
Yeah, there's no part two of the movie.
- [33:57]
A
Yeah. You always. You see a bunch of effort being put in at the beginning, but then never afterwards. And so a lot of us have internalized that and believed, like, I Locked it down. I put a ring on it. We're married. We're good now. And the idea of no, you have to actively work on your relationship for the rest of your life.
- [34:18]
B
Yeah, it's a work in progress.
- [34:19]
A
Can feel a little bit exhausting. But the reality is that fine is where relationships go to die. Fine is fine.
- [34:27]
B
Fine is not good enough.
- [34:29]
A
It also happens in the bedroom, too. You might think, like, my partner's not complaining. They're not saying anything. We haven't gotten any fights. Like, you know, we're doing it like, it's not like we're never having sex. Like, it must be okay. But same sort of dynamic there. And fine is absolutely a killer in the bedroom. Nobody wants to be having fine sex, and nobody wants to have a fine relationship. That's not what we dream of. That's not what we. You know, when you're at the altar saying your I dos to each other, Nobody has that in the back of their mind, like, yes, I promise you to have a fine relationship.
- [35:13]
B
Yeah, we're going to do just. We're going to do just the bare minimum.
- [35:17]
A
Yeah, it's not good enough. So we want you to, like, be really honest with yourself and ask yourself, where in your relationship have you been settling for just fine? And let's talk about what is a quick win to get here, because this
- [35:36]
B
one might not sound like there's a quick win.
- [35:39]
A
I think one of the best starting points to get yourself out of the fine hole is to try to tap back into curiosity. We get to a point of indifference when we assume that we just know everything about our partner and about the relationship, and it's just like, you know, it's just in that cruise control. So one simple thing that you can start doing is trying to ask each other more interesting questions. And this was actually a big part of the reason why we created our Sex Talks card deck. I'm not sure if you can see it in the shot, but we have it on a. No, it's not in the shot here. Bring it down. We have it on the ledge. The sex talks card dec with 90 prompts to deepen connection and spark intimacy.
- [36:24]
B
That's right.
- [36:25]
A
We'll give you the questions because let's be real. Sometimes we're like, okay, I want to have a more meaningful conversation with my partner. And then you're like, but how? What do I ask them? I don't know. So I like card decks for that reason. Like, we did the work for you. We came up with the good questions. They're therapist vetted and approved. So just go through those cards with each other. That could be a really nice way to start finding more curiosity about each other, to start digging yourself out of that hole.
- [36:54]
B
I think another thing to remember, because I think that is very real, that feeling that you know everything about your partner. And I get why you feel that because you've been together for a really long time. And, I mean, I felt that way before, but I think the thing to remind yourself is if you've been in a relationship for a really long time, you are both changing people. And what you thought you knew about somebody doesn't necessarily mean that you still know that about them. And I think there's opportunities, you know, for. Here's a good example. You might be like, oh, yeah, no, when we got together, like, I know their taste in music, right? Like, we went to all these concerts, and I know all the stuff that we used to listen to, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yeah, but, like, you know, especially, you know, your partner drives to work every day, and they're probably listening to different music than they did the day that you first met. And it's like, it's easy to change your tastes and start getting interested in new stuff. And so it's like, there's always an opportunity. Like, hey, like, did you read anything interesting? You listen to anything cool? You know, so just a reminder that our thoughts, our feelings, our opinions, our perspectives, our tastes change over time. And you always have an opportunity to get to know the person that your partner is now or the person that they might be becoming.
- [38:15]
A
All right, number four is our f. Forgetting to appreciate. This one is all about taking your partner for granted. It definitely is tied into. Our last one is just kind of settling into that indifferent place. Yeah, I know you. I know our relationship. It's just. There's nothing new to it. But with this one, you know, when gratitude disappears in a relationship, it is so easy for resentment to start creeping in. And this one can be another very, very subtle one, but it's so damaging. So it's just like, you stop acknowledging the small things that your partner does for you on a daily basis. The things like making you a cup of coffee, taking the dogs out on a walk, handling the kids bedtime routine solo, just doing the dishes without being asked. We start to expect things out of our partner, and when we expect those things, the appreciation just goes out the window. So this happens very easily with chores. You know, we split up chores in a relationship, and we start expecting our partner to Just follow through on those things. And in some senses, that is the right thing to do. Like, we do need to just be adults and get our stuff done. But it very easily can tip into this point of like, yeah, no, that's just your stuff. Why should I ever acknowledge you? Why should I ever thank you? And it's a subtle difference, but I think it actually makes a really big difference. Like, yes, your partner should be an adult. They should do their stuff. You should do your stuff. But that doesn't mean you can't still be appreciative of each other for doing that.
- [39:54]
B
Yeah, I think what you're saying is, like, it can be easy to almost slip into entitlement, like, oh, I'm entitled to them just doing this stuff that supports me. And then you've stripped out any chance of being grateful. It's fine to expect that your partner does their chores, but it's also important to appreciate that they do their chores. And it's really a meta thing. It's ultimately, you are appreciating the fact that you have a partner, that you are in a partnership where you are able to split up tasks and responsibilities rather than you're solo and you're doing everything on your own.
- [40:26]
A
And it also can really slip into, like, the rest of the relationship, too. One of the classic things that we hear is, you know, one partner will complain like, my partner never says, I love you. They never give me compliments. They never say what they, you know, like about me or appreciate about me. And if we get a chance to talk to the partner, the partner will be like, well, my partner knows all this. Like, why do I have to keep saying it again? And I do think this tends to happen more with men. Men have this feeling like, my partner already knows that. And sometimes it's not. It's not even that it's coming from a bad place that the partner's being this withholding jerk. It's like, no, like, we've been together 20 years. Like, they know I love them. But we do have to keep repeating these things. Like, you can't say, I love you one time, and your partner knows for the rest of eternity that you love them. And obviously being extreme with the example here, but there's no downside of telling your partner how much you love and appreciate them. I've never. I've never heard somebody say, my partner appreciates me too much. It's getting annoying.
- [41:37]
B
Well, I mean, yeah, there's no downside, because what we also know is that gratitude is the number one Predictor of marital satisfaction. So, yeah, like you. Yeah, you. It's definitely highly correlated with things working out. And so clearly, most problems that people have in relationships come from one or both partners feeling unappreciated.
- [42:00]
A
And ultimately, the feeling that this gives us is a feeling of being invisible. Like, I've chosen to spend my life with this person, but they don't even see me. They don't see me on a daily basis. Like, the things that I do, the person that I am, the ways that I try to connect with them. Like, you feel so lonely and so invisible in a relationship. And again, it. It very often is not coming from a bad place. It's just. We've gotten a little lazy. We've gotten a little complacent. We assume that our partner knows. And the reality is, like, yes, your partner knows. They know that you love them, but they need to hear that.
- [42:41]
B
It feels good to hear it again.
- [42:44]
A
So we're talking. We're kind of talking about two categories here. It's like appreciation for who they are as a person and appreciation. Appreciation for the things that they do, too. So our quick win for you, and this one is literally the quickest one that we have, is just thank your partner for something today. Show them appreciation. It can be so simple. It can be literally a sentence, but something either about who they are as a person or what they do for you, for your family, Ways that they make life easier. Just tell them one thing today, one thing that you appreciate. We just got back from Xander's birthday trip. He went surfing in Mexico. And do you know what he packed with him? His Cure Hydration packs.
- [43:33]
B
Oh, yeah. Non negotiable.
- [43:34]
A
We have tried a lot of different electrolytes, but Xander really loves cure. They're made with coconut water and pink Himalayan salt. No added sugar. It's light and super refreshing. They have really tasty flavors. Peach, mango, berry, pomegranate, watermelon, lemonade, strawberry quiche, a ton of other flavors. We end up getting the variety pack, so we can just try them all. They come in these super convenient packets. You just throw them into a bag, throw them in your purse. They're always available, and they're really important for hydration. Like, we need those electrolytes to help us stay hydrated. Cure Hydration is officially in Target now. So you can stock up in Target or you can get 20% off at cure hydration.com with code pillow talks. That's. That's 20% off at cure hydration dot com with code pillow Talks. All right. And let's bring it on home with our last one, our t. Touch becomes transactional. So this is about the loss of non sexual intimacy. A lot of people in long term relationships start associating touch with. With sex at the beginning of a relationship. It's like we can't keep our hands off of each other. We're always touching, we're always kissing. But as time goes on, we start to associate touching and kissing with sex. And we stop doing those things on a regular, daily basis. We only do them like during sex or in the lead up to sex. And it can even get to a point, this happens very often where it develops, you develop the bristle reaction. This is a term that we coined. And it's when you instinctively flinch or pull away when your partner tries to be affectionate because you think all they're doing is trying to push for more. You've made that connection in your head, like, and it may be that your partner truly only does touch you when they want sex. So the second that their hand starts creeping up, you're like, I know what they want, I know what you're going for. And you flinch, you pull away. So touch starts to feel like an obligation. Touch starts to feel like there's a motive behind it. Like your partner's only touching you because they want something out of you. But physical touch is what helps us feel loved and connected. It is one of the most important things that prevents us from feeling like roommates, like touching each other and kissing each other. Those are things that we only do with our person, not with friends, not with, you know, obviously the, like, there's some touch with friends and family members and stuff. But I'm talking like romantic touch and, you know, intimate touch.
- [46:23]
B
And also, like looking back, that's one of the most exciting things about the early stages of a relationship is having someone that you know, there's this excitement when you touch them. Someone that you can touch all the time or not all the time, but, you know, very frequently. And I think that, yeah, it's sad that we lose that. And not only do we lose that, but we actually, we kind of actually shy away from it because it takes on a totally different meaning. Yeah, you. Most people have a lot more sex right when they are first starting to date, but they're not having sex all the time. They're touching each other far more frequently than they are just having sex. So to anyone that thinks it's not possible, just go back to the beginning of your relationship. You guys were touching each other and you Weren't just. Just constantly having sex every time you touched each other. Right. So it's. It's completely possible you guys just looked at it differently back then.
- [47:18]
A
The other piece of this is people will often tell us, and it tends to be the woman saying, like, well, I don't want to do that, because then he'll get turned on or he'll get excited, and then I'm not going to want to follow through on it. So he's just going to be disappointed. And this is something that we need to reframe. Being excited and turned on and not getting satisfaction, like, not winding up having sex was actually really exciting and sexy. In the beginning stages of a relationship. It felt like a tease. Like, oh, I get. I'm, like, so excited. I'm so, like, zinged up. Xander's zing. And I'm like, and we don't get to be together. That was exciting. Exciting.
- [48:05]
B
Yeah.
- [48:05]
A
But somewhere along the way, we've started thinking of it as this horrible thing like, oh, I couldn't possibly get him turned on and not follow through on it.
- [48:16]
B
Yeah, it's like, you think your partner needs immediate gratification. Like, there. There's very little immediate gratification in life.
- [48:23]
A
I think we really need to reframe that. I want couples to have more of a tease with each other. I want you guys to get. Get worked up and not be able to follow through on it. I want you to be able to, like, feel that sexual energy with each other again. So it's not a bad thing to get your partner excited and then not follow through on that. It's a good thing.
- [48:45]
B
It's a totally different story if you're like, yeah, well, I say that, but really, I just never want to have sex with my partner. Or I. You know, I. I want to do it so infrequently that, you know, nine times out of 10, I would basically just be turning them down. That's a different story. That is absolutely something that you should look at in your relationship and work on, and we talk about that in tons of other episodes. But, yeah, I think this idea. So we throw the baby out with the bathwater. I cannot allow there to be one situation where my partner feels a little turned on and they can't get some immediately.
- [49:21]
A
You could also present it to your partner as an option. Say, hey, I was listening to this podcast episode. I'm not sure I agree with these guys. They had something kind of weird to say, but what would you rather have? Would you rather have a relationship where we only touch each other during sex or immediately in the lead up to sex.
- [49:39]
B
So that, for me, would mean that I would only touch you only when I know with 100% certainty that I'm into it. Which is probably rare given the dynamic that you're currently in.
- [49:50]
A
Yeah. So you will never be disappointed, but you also will barely ever be touched. Will barely ever be touched. Or would you rather have a relationship where we touch and kiss each other frequently, and there are times where you get excited and you want more and you're not able to get more? Like, I know what your partner's gonna pick already, but if you wanna ask it to them, like, present it to them as an option, you absolutely can. So the big picture solution here is that we have to break this association that all touching and all kissing has to lead to sexual. So if you want to have a super quick win here, you could literally just try to have a quick little makeout session with your partner. You can tell them ahead of time, like, I just want to have a quick little make out with you. Nothing more. Just a makeout for the sake of a makeout. Or you could even do a hug. If you want to do a hug. Like, oh, you know what? I just realized? We haven't hugged in so long. Like, come here. Let's give each other, like, a nice
- [50:45]
B
big hug or a little cuddle on the couch.
- [50:47]
A
Yeah, I mean, you could do that in 30 seconds. It's not a big deal at all. If you want a win that's, like, a little bit more involved, then you can make a ritual out of it. So Xander and I actually have had a ritual for years now where we make out every single night in bed. And most nights, it's very quick, just a little tongue action. But it's our way of repeatedly showing ourselves, like, it's okay, it's safe to kiss each other and not have it lead to more. So if you want to steal that routine, we absolutely love it. It helps us feel really connected. Okay, so to wrap up, those are the five ways that couples drift apart. The D is for devices steal attention. The R is for routine replaces romance. The I is for indifference. The F is for forgetting to appreciate. And the T is for touch becomes transactional. Okay, Xander, moment of vulnerability. Which one do you think we are we struggle with the most right now?
- [51:53]
B
Let's see here. Probably devices deal attention or routine replaces romance. I think that we definitely have a routine. You know, we do, like, date night sometimes. But the devices also. I mean, I think you and I. It's really easy for us to. It's really easy for us to have a connecting thing that doesn't have to be like a big date night, but our phones get in the way. So I might go devices first.
- [52:23]
A
Yeah.
- [52:24]
B
That might actually solve the other one.
- [52:25]
A
Yeah, I think the devices for sure. So we gotta work on it.
- [52:31]
B
Yeah. We gotta watch Love island with no devices.
- [52:35]
A
We do. I know. That's like. That's another easy fix. It's like one device at a time. Oh, my God. Being watching TV and being on your phones at the same time, it's. It's crazy making. Yeah.
- [52:46]
B
Device double fisting.
- [52:48]
A
So, yeah. Take a moment to check in with your partner. Ask them, which one do you want to work on first? You know, these are. Again, these are small things, but they really do make a big difference over time. So we really encourage you to pick one. Pick one quick win. Pick one little ritual or routine that you can develop and see what happens to your relationship when you start putting a little active effort into it. And let us know, too, which one you think is having the biggest impact on your relationship. If you're listening on Spotify, there's a comments feature, so you can just pop down in the comments section and let us know which. Which letter of the Drift framework are you working with now? All right, well, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We've released new episodes every Thursday.