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E272: What Do Men Really Think About….? (Part 5) Rough Sex, Vibrators, and What Turns Them Off
00:56:23
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- [00:00]
A
Do men get upset if their partner needs a vibrator to help with an orgasm? Reverse cowgirl. Is the view really that great?
- [00:10]
B
Sure is.
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A
Do men really want to hear their partner give them feedback about their technique? Or do they just say that? Xander. Do men prefer rough. Whoa.
- [00:22]
B
No foreplay.
- [00:30]
A
Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talk podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.
- [00:39]
B
And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.
- [00:46]
A
Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. You guys keep asking for these episodes, so we are going to keep on delivering. We are back with another what do you guys really think about? Fill in the blank. You guys want to know what men are really thinking? So we turn to our resident regular dude, our resident penis owner, Xander, to answer on behalf of all men.
- [01:30]
B
Because I can do that. I have the qualifications.
- [01:33]
A
He does. Absolutely. He has a master's degree in men.
- [01:37]
B
I'm a Master of man.
- [01:38]
A
Yes.
- [01:40]
B
Should we just change this podcast to be called, like, the Master of Man? Master of man, or maybe Inside Xander's Brain?
- [01:48]
A
Sure. The whole. The whole podcast. I mean, we seriously, every time we put this question box up, we get thousands of questions. And every time we release one of these episodes, we get a ton of comments and DMs of people saying, like, yes, please keep the series going. I want ask about xyz. Da da da. So we always have to give the caveat that obviously Xander is just one man. He cannot speak on behalf of every single man out there.
- [02:16]
B
Oh, shit. So I'm not qualified, actually. Damn.
- [02:19]
A
But I think the real value in these episodes is in the way that they naturally open up conversations between partners. So we are always encouraging you to listen to these episodes with your partner and let us do the heavy lift of bringing the topic up and posing the questions. And then it feels so much more natural for you to press pause in the episode and say, hey, what do you really think about this? Do you disagree with Xander? Do you agree with Xander? So it's not that Xander is just 100% answering for every single man out there and is inside your partner's unique brain and knows exactly what he would say, but it's in the way that it allows you to open up the conversation with your partner, because ultimately that's what's most important.
- [03:06]
B
So, Roiz, what One man thinks.
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A
What One man Thinks. That's not as exciting of a podcast title.
- [03:13]
B
It sure isn't. It sure isn't. So we probably won't be going with that title, unfortunately, guys.
- [03:18]
A
So we are going to cover a bunch of really interesting questions. I was just looking over the list and I was like, oh, I'm curious to know how he's going to respond to this one. So we shall see. But before we get into it, we would just love to your support in helping Pillow Talks grow. There was yet another Spotify and Apple podcast update that's like making it so much harder for podcasts to be able to reach new audiences. And we really want to make an impact with this podcast. Like, we hear stories from you guys all the time about how the podcast has positively impacted your life. And we want to be able to help more couples. So we would be so grateful if you just took half a second to hit the follow or the subscribe button. Wherever you're listening. It should just be on that main Pillow Talks page. You just tap it and you're following the podcast.
- [04:07]
B
You can probably see it on your screen right now.
- [04:10]
A
And if you want extra credit, you could leave us a five star rating or a quick little review. It doesn't need to be anything long or profound. It could literally just be like, this podcast is worth listening to.
- [04:22]
B
If you have something profound, absolutely. Let us know.
- [04:24]
A
Oh, I mean, we'd love to hear that, but I, you know, I know everybody's busy. I know even something like this, most people are going to listen to it and not do it anyway. So I'm trying to just make it as easy as possible, but it really, really help us so much. So thank you in advance for your support. Okay, let's just get right into it. Xander. Do men prefer rough fucking? Whoa.
- [04:45]
B
No foreplay. We're just slipping it, right? We're not even slipping it, we're just smacking it right in.
- [04:55]
A
Wow, rough cotton here. This is one of the questions I was like, okay, I'm curious to see what he's going to say about this.
- [05:04]
B
Okay, I don't think that I can give you a categorical answer here.
- [05:09]
A
You have to yes or no. That's all you can respond. No context, no explanations. It's just yes or no.
- [05:15]
B
All right, let me go in on a personal note. I, I in general, do not prefer rough. I think there is a time and a place and it's very vibe and energy dependent and sometimes you get into a more animalistic place. But my goal when we have sex is not like, how rough can we get? But at least for me, it does feel a bit like if the goal is always rough, then you're kind of going to be missing a lot of opportunities for like, for connecting, intimate moments during sex. Not that like, you can't have a connecting and intimate rough fuck if that's what both of you are really looking for in that moment. But I do think that there. Yeah, there's a time and a place for it. But I think if. If I'm looking really critically at our sex life, the. I don't know if we're quantifying the number of minutes where it's generally more rough. Like, that probably would make up like 5 to 10% of what we do us personally. Okay, that being said, that's. That's sort of like the personal thing. Here's a man saying he does not prefer rough sex. He every now and then gets, you know, we got a little, what's it, A wild hair up our nose.
- [06:37]
A
You're turning into me not being able to remember these a. Yeah, what is it? Wild, A hair up your nose?
- [06:44]
B
Something like that. You know, weird.
- [06:47]
A
I'll look it up while you're talking.
- [06:48]
B
Yeah, and it happens. And it's fun because that's kind of the vibe that has emerged from what we're doing. But yeah, for the most part, that is not, you know, we like. Yeah, I don't know, we both of us like to are kind of playful in bed and when it comes to sex. And so for us, you know, sex tends to be a little more like, playful, I guess, which is not necessarily super rough for us. If rough sex is the thing that you love, then I mean, hopefully you found a partner that also loves rough sex as much as you, because, you know, then you can have a lot more of it. But. All right, why do we have this perception of men loving rough sex? I think that's maybe the better question.
- [07:30]
A
You know, I even kind of want to step back and ask, what are we talking about with rough here? Like, I think this.
- [07:36]
B
Yeah, that's a good question.
- [07:37]
A
Do you mean rough in the sense of, like, pounding fast and hard, like really like, jackhammering type of sex? Or do you mean rough more in the sense of like, maybe there's some BDSM or some power play involved where you're like, spanking each other, choking each other? You know, playing with power dynamics could be a Lot of different things.
- [07:57]
B
True. Oh, yeah, very true. I guess I was speaking more towards, like, pounded out type of rough.
- [08:03]
A
It's a wild hair up your ass.
- [08:05]
B
No, it's not. I swear. It's your nose. It is not. Where do you find.
- [08:10]
A
Up your nose is a common, polite substitution people make so they don't have to say the crude version.
- [08:14]
B
Wow, I've literally never heard. I feel like people are so polite with that one that the phrase has just become up your nose. It makes a lot more sense to be up your nose because, like, that would make you sneeze. It kind of make you get a little wild, right? Like, if you get a. I hate to say it, but if you get a hair in your ass, you're not really gonna know. Like, would you feel like. Would you be like, oh, God, this stupid hair in my ass?
- [08:37]
A
No. Haven't you ever had a. You're not a girl, so you don't know this experience? Like, sometimes you get a long hair that's, like, in your butt crack. You can. You can feel it. You can tell. Oh, okay, you got a fish. Just like how I had to have you. I had a hair stuck to my back earlier today, and I was like, yeah, you have to get it off me sometimes.
- [08:54]
B
So we're talking about a wild hair between your cheeks is what you're saying? Yeah, I was thinking, like, in.
- [09:00]
A
Not in my. Like, up in my butthole. No, like, between the cheeks. You know, they fall. They fall down from here, and then they work their way down there, and sometimes they just slip in the crack on the way down, apparently.
- [09:14]
B
All right, if it is. If we're talking more bdsm, then that's more a question of, like. Like, kink. And I. And I think, like, as you know, we've talked when we talk about kink, like, that's something if. If you're talking about bdsm, spanking, I don't know if spanking is necessarily qualifies as kink all the way. Like, you can. But, you know, if we're talking about BDSM power play, then that is definitely something that not all men prefer. You know, kink is really something where it's like, if you happen to enjoy that kink, then that is something that you are into. But what are. Do we have stats on? Do we have stats on, like, what, roughly percentage of people kind of identify as having a kink?
- [09:55]
A
I don't think so. It's a good poll that we should ask people, though.
- [09:58]
B
All right. We should absolutely ask our audience but, yeah, I mean, I can tell you without a doubt that far less than 50% of men have a BDSM kink. But if we're talking about just like, rough, pounded out kind of sex, I think that. I think that men can absolutely get the idea that pounded out, rough sex, basically what you very often see in porn, that that is sort of what you aspire to. So I think that men who watch a lot of porn, their only sexual education was porn. Or maybe men who are younger, haven't had a lot of partners or very serious partners might think that this is sort of something to aspire to. And I can. I can see myself in that category from at a younger age where, you know, I didn't talk. No one really talked to me very much about sex. You know, I definitely saw how sex was portrayed in porn, like, through my teenage years and through my early 20s. And I think most guys, when they start having sex, their main concern is how do I not come in, like, under two minutes? And so I do think that early on I definitely looked at, like, oh, well, if I'm able to have rough sex, then. Then I'm, like, in good control of my body, right? Like, I'm able to, you know, I'm able to go for a while and go at a speed where I'm not just like, immediately coming. And so I think that it's. It can be easy early on to sort of fall into this trap of like, oh, yeah, I must really be doing it right if I can do this. That being said, you know, personally, I didn't have a lot of sex outside of serious relationships. Like, the vast majority of the sex that I've had has been in, you know, serious committed relationships. And I think, you know, for me, I quickly found, like, the. For me, the most enjoyable aspect of sex and committed relationship is it being like a bonding, intimate, like an experience you're having together, not like something I'm doing to her. So I think that, yeah, the vast majority of most men in, you know, long term committed relationships are not looking for super rough sex. I think if they are, a lot of it might have to do more with a kind of, I don't know, inaccurate idea of what sex is supposed to be about.
- [12:16]
A
I also think you may have a good chunk of men who are doing this jackhammering kind of motion because they've desensitized themselves from masturbation.
- [12:27]
B
Yes, that's very possible.
- [12:30]
A
A lot of men use what we call the death grip. A lot of people that's not like Our phrase.
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B
But they develop it over time.
- [12:36]
A
Yeah, they develop it over time where they start using like a tighter and tighter and tighter grip. Usually when they're watching porn while they masturbate, they're disconnected from their bodies because they're paying more attention to the porn. And so they end up, like, training their bodies to require this level of stimulation that a vagina just cannot create.
- [12:55]
B
So speed becomes the only workaround.
- [12:58]
A
Intensity. Yeah, like you're trying to create more sensation. Okay, so let's go to a related question. What do guys feel like they get out of sex other than just an orgasm? Do they feel like they connect in other ways after sex too?
- [13:13]
B
Absolutely. I think this is one of the most misunderstood things about men because we have these stereotypes of men as like, they just want to get off, they just want to get some. They're just in it for the orgasm. Like they, you know, they, they put it in anything. And the reality is, if you are in a relationship, you want to do it with this one person, right? If you wanted to just put it in anything or you wanted to just do it totally on your terms, like you wouldn't want to get into a relationship. I think that what most men are so misunderstood for is sex is one of the main ways, probably the most major way for the vast majority of men that they feel like they are able to connect and be vulnerable in a relationship. It is how they feel like they feel really connected in love with their partner. And, you know, the time that you're able to share in terms of, you know, the sex that you're having, maybe being able to talk a little dirty talk about what it is that you want, what you like, how hot your partner is, all, you know, how beautiful they are, all those things. That is a level of vulnerability that most men don't feel comfortable with outside of sex, you know. You know, unfortunately, we have been socialized in such a way to not feel as comfortable as women in, in letting out our emotions in most contexts. But sex is very often one of the very few ways. Sex and sports are seriously the two ways where men are socialized. It is okay to be emotional, it is okay to be vulnerable. It's okay, you know, it's okay to cry. It's okay to really show how you feel. You know, unless you're constantly watching a lot of high stakes sports games with your partner, the way that you are probably going to get that vulnerability and emotional closeness is via sex. So, yeah, like, I know with us, after we've had sex, I feel like I feel like my love tank is full. I feel like. I feel very close to you. I feel very connected to you. I feel even more in love with you than I already am. And I feel like that connection, that good feeling lasts for a while afterwards. And I will very often, when I find myself feeling a little disconnected, I will find myself thinking about, oh, well, how can I reconnect? Oh, sex. That's a great way to reconnect.
- [15:43]
A
I think that this is something that women really get wrong about men. And a way that we do a huge distance service to men is that we think of sex as purely this physical act. We depersonalize it. We act like all they want is just to get off. We're just a convenient vessel for them to do that in. And we don't see or we downplay the ways that it actually is connection for them. And this is not to say that you have to force yourself to have sex that you don't want to have, that you always have to say yes to them. Absolutely not. Like, that's a separate, completely separate topic. But we do need to respect that sex is about emotional connection for men and that it's a valid way to experience emotional connection. Like, as a therapist, I want men to be able to experience emotional connection in other ways. And that's part of the work that we do. It's like, yes, it is valid for you to want this as emotional connection. Let's also teach you other ways to experience emotional connection with your partner so that she doesn't feel this pressure of, oh, the only way that he's able to feel close to me is if I do something with my body. So, like, we want you to have multiple options. But again, it starts with acknowledging, validating, and honoring that this is a real way to want to experience emotional closeness with your partner.
- [17:05]
B
And I do think that if you are a partner who wants to encourage more emotion and vulnerability out of their male partner, sex might be one of your easiest and best ways in to try to help them open those doors a little bit more. So here's an example of what I mean. So, like, the moment, you know, the moments right after we finish sex are some of the times where most men are most open to having more emotional or vulnerable types of conversations. Unfortunately, most of us jump up after sex, go off and do our own thing, or, you know, jump up to clean up, and then we don't really come back together to kind of, like, bask in that moment. So think about what, you know, hey, what can. Can I use the Next five to ten minutes after we finish, to try to feel closer to my partner, to try to sort of encourage a little more emotional and connecting conversation. Not to, like, have an emotionally loaded question that you want to spring on him right after you have sex, but just talking a little bit more about, like, how it feels afterwards, how good that connection feels. You're starting to lay the groundwork for, hey, when we do this, it feels good. And, you know, maybe asking some questions, hey, how are you feeling right now? What was that like for you? What's it like, like, seeing me when we're having sex? Questions like that, where you're just slowly starting to encourage him to open up a little bit more. So that way you're creating this connection of, oh, when you share a little bit about an emotional topic, like, we have a, you know, a good. We have a good outcome. Right. Like, it's a positive conversation. So you can start doing that. And then you can also use the topic of sex to create more connecting conversations. Like, hey, the next day, be like, man, I can't stop thinking about last night. That was really fun. Or, man, those moments we shared afterwards were so meaningful to me. And so starting to use the topic of sexual to start to make it feel more safe throughout the day, to have some kinds of emotional touch points or vulnerable touch points and give him positive encouragement when he does. Is sharing being more emotional with you? Is being more vulnerable with you?
- [19:23]
A
Yeah. And also going back to the validation piece of it. So let's imagine whatever it is that feels the most emotionally connecting for you to the women listening. Let's say it's quality time together. Let's having deep conversations. Imagine if your partner put that down and said, ugh, quality time together. Like, come on, that's so dumb.
- [19:48]
B
We live together.
- [19:48]
A
We live together. Obviously, we're spending quality time together. And to be fair, some men do do this, and you already know how shitty that feels. You're like, dude, that's how I feel close to you. Like, don't. Don't put that down. Right. Don't treat it like it's something that's unimportant. You might have a different relationship. You might have a different, like, you know, relationship with what makes you feel connected. But, like, don't put me down for wanting to spend quality time with you, wanting to have date nights with you, wanting you to say nice things to me, you know, whatever it is. Yeah.
- [20:15]
B
Because that feels really invalidating, right?
- [20:17]
A
Yeah, exactly. So, like, imagine how it might feel.
- [20:20]
B
Imagine how invalidating it might feel to your male partner when he hears you downplay sex or talk about, oh, God, you want that? Like, seriously read the room. Like, even if he should be reading the room, like, it's being able to acknowledge, hey, I see that you're making a real legitimate bid for connection right now. And rather than trying to shut him down, you can still say no. But you can say no in a kind way that recognizes that he gave you a valid bid for connection and that connection is important to you.
- [21:02]
A
If you are watching the podcast on YouTube, you might be able to see that I am on my curly hair journey, letting my natural texture come out.
- [21:09]
B
Having a good hair day today.
- [21:10]
A
Thank you. Something that is really helping is my Blissy silk pillowcase. I had no idea that cotton pillowcases cause frizz and actually sleep creases on your face until I switched to Blissey actually at a friend's recommendation. You will see healthier skin in weeks. It reduces fine lines, wrinkles, and those sleep creases better hair in days because it reduces frizz breakage and preserves styles and color. Like, when you sleep on it, my curls don't just go flat and disappear. Like, it really helps keep the life in them. The Blissey pillowcases come in over a hundred colors. They're super easy to take care of, fully machine washable, over 3 million sold. They've won 13 different awards. They're a really great gift. I got them from my mom for Christmas last year and she absolutely loved them. Because you're a listener, Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free, plus an additional 30% off when you shop at Blissey.com PillowPod that's B L-I-S-S-Y.com Pillow Pod and use code Pillow Pod to get an additional 30% off. Your skin and hair will thank you. Okay, next question. Do men really want to hear their partner give them feedback about their technique or do they just say that, oh,
- [22:34]
B
this is a tough one? Because I do think that there are a lot of men who unfortunately tend to react somewhat poorly to feedback, even if they are saying, yeah, I want feedback.
- [22:48]
A
It's like you're saying, I want feedback, but the only feedback I want to hear is, I made you come so hard. You did such a good job, babe. You're the king. I've never had better.
- [22:57]
B
So, yes, that is. That is tough. I do think though, you can give feedback that is more rooted in negativity. You can give feedback that is more rooted in positivity. And I think that sometimes when we're here. Our partner going, oh, yeah, no, I want you to give me feedback. I want you give me feedback. People go, okay, all right, fine. Well, all right, I'll tell you all the things that I dislike. And it's like, okay, yep, that is an approach that you could take. But if you take that approach, then the person receiving the feedback is feeling like, oh, God, I'm really not doing a very good job. And I think that it's so much easier to come in with more of a positively rooted feedback. So trying to share what are the things that you do really enjoy that they do, and how can we get more of that? Oh, it's so hot when you do that. When, you know, when you do that thing. And, you know, I've noticed, like, often we'll kind of rush through that activity. And I realized I actually really like that. What if it would be super hot if maybe we spent, like, five minutes just on that? Like, that would get me. And then this is the key part. This is where you then tie the positive outcome of them doing that to something that's going to be good for them. Because I think if your partner is asking for feedback, what they are ultimately asking for is, I enjoy seeing you have a good experience. Right. I want to do what I can to try to make you have as good of an experience, of a good experience faster, a better experience sooner, you know, like, something like that. So just trying to focus on what is it that you want more of. That's.
- [24:37]
A
That.
- [24:37]
B
That's kind of our first trick with feedback. I think the second trick is like. Like, if your partner doesn't do very much that you really enjoy, and you're like, God, I'm like, trying to think of, like, how to sugarcoat this. You know, find this one thing that I do really like, but they don't really do very much of it, then I think that the next best thing is, rather than being like, I really dislike everything that you do is more like, you know, I've kind of been like, I had a dream. We set aside, like, half an hour, and we just. Instead of, you know, like, touching for, like, 20 seconds, and then, you know, using our mouths for, like, 20 seconds and then going straight into it, we spread that out. We spent, you know, like, five minutes just touching each other, and then, like, 10, you know, five minutes just doing oral on each other, going back and forth, and it was so hot. I'm really curious about trying that. And you're not saying that's how I want to do it. Every time you're saying, hey, it would be. I. It was really hot in that dream, I can't stop thinking about it. It would be fun to try that out and see what we think. I'm not saying I dislike what we've been doing. So I think that, yeah, it's just trying to be careful that the message that you're sending is not like. Like everything that you've been doing is wrong. And in fact, I actually want something totally different.
- [25:56]
A
Yeah. I think also it's important to give the context that the reason that men tend to be really sensitive about feedback in the bedroom is that they grow up being socialized to believe that you are in control of a sexual experience. And it is.
- [26:13]
B
The man is.
- [26:13]
A
Yeah, the man is. It's his responsibility. He's supposed to just be automatically incredible at it, know what he's doing, read his partner's mind, be able to deliver the best possible experience. And that kind of socialization, like, that gets in really deep. And even if you've been crystal clear with your partner saying, like, hey, this is a team, like a team event. You know, we're in this together, which the vast majority of couples have never had that conversation. But, like, even if you do say something like that, he's still going to be feeling that pressure of, like. Like, no, like, it really is on me. I'm the one who's supposed to deliver here. So when you feel that amount of pressure on your shoulders, I think it makes a lot of sense to also feel very sensitive to thinking you're not doing a good job, because it's like, it's an attack on your masculinity. Like, if I'm not doing a good job, I'm not a good man. Right. And so, you know, I think we make a lot of jokes about, like, the frail male ego, the fragile male ego. But I do think that that understanding that context is important for us being able to tap into sympathy. I think the vast majority of men, they're not trying to be jerks about it. They're not trying to be rude about it. It's like, really coming from a place of sensitivity.
- [27:35]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it. Yeah, the. The fragile male ego is. Is a problem. And I think it's also something that we all have to take some responsibility for perpetrating. Whether you do this now or you did this at some point in, you know, earlier on in your. In your sexual experience, like, anytime that you say something or have an exp. You know, have. Have sex where you're Kind of like, okay, man, like, it's your job to, you know, your job to. To figure me out. Or, like, all right, like, you run the show. I'm gonna kind of lie back and, like, let you do your thing. You are perpetrating the idea that it's his job to. To run the show, to figure out what it is that you like. That it's not a. That it's not a team sport, that it's something that he's doing. Yeah. That's not something that he's doing to you. And also getting something out of himself. Also, anytime, you know, whenever you've been in a. If you've been in a relationship where you're like, oh, well, it's the man's job to initiate. Like, you are reinforcing the idea that sex is for him. It is not for you. It's something that you give him when he's been a good boy or. Or whatever. And I think that, you know, we all engage in that, or we, you know, we. We make jokes or we say things that reinforce this idea that he's supposed to know your body better than you do, which. How the hell would that ever even work? How would that even work? We know the way that, you know, the female body is. What is. We generally know the way the female body is wired for pleasure, but every person experiences that differently. Literally, different strokes for different folks. Right? So there's no way that he can know what you want without either you telling him because you know yourself, or two, without you two exploring together, creating a container where it's both of you figuring out what works for the two of you rather than just him. It can be a little triggering. Maybe isn't the right word, but it can be this sort of double whammy. You were a minute ago, you were describing, like, how it can feel like, well, God, I'm supposed to be in charge of this, and now you're telling me what I'm doing isn't good. On top of that, if you're, like, suggesting something, hey, I'd love it if you actually did this to me. If he doesn't feel confident in his technique on the other thing that you're suggesting, that's also going to feel scary to him. He's like, God, I'm supposed to be in charge, and now you want me to do something that I don't even. I'm not even very good at. Like, that is, you know, the sort of, like a double attack on his. On his masculinity. So I think that if you are suggesting something new or different, trying to find a way where it's like, hey, this is an exciting opportunity. Not for you to do something to
- [30:21]
A
me sounds like you're about to sell me a timeshare, but that's an exciting
- [30:24]
B
opportunity to get your own place in Mexico for a very low price, and you can only use it two days a year. But no, it's like, hey, did I actually say an exciting opportunity?
- [30:35]
A
Yes, you did.
- [30:36]
B
And now I'm, like, struggling to even get back into what I was saying. No, but it's like, hey, I think this could be a really fun opportunity for us to explore something new together. Hey, this isn't something that I've done very much either. I think it'll be real. Like, let's look at this as a practice thing. Like, we both are gonna get to try new things and both get to suggest new things. Cause that is gonna take a lot of the pressure off where it's like, look, I don't expect you to. To, like, be incredible at this. We've never done this together before. Like, let's. Let's learn this together. I think that would be really hot. That'll be really hot for us to both get to kind of, like, learn or experiment with this together, regardless of our experience with it outside of the relationship. So I think that's where a lot of men get tripped up. They're like, wait, I'm supposed to be an expert at this, but I'm not. And so then they go, well, then they try to find excuses for why they don't want to do it, or they feel like, oh, this person is asking me to do this because she's gotten. She's had someone else do this in the past, and, like, really good. And then they're, like, thinking about that, and it's like, let's not talk about it that way. Let's talk about. This is an opportunity for us to try something new together. We're both responsible for it. It's going to be a fun, connecting, vulnerable, and intimate experience together. Rather than, like, I need you to do this thing that my last boyfriend did.
- [31:58]
A
Oh, God, don't ever say that.
- [32:00]
B
Yeah, don't say that.
- [32:01]
A
Yes. And so this is a perfect example of a conversation that we really recommend all couples having. Like, if you have a male partner, ask him, hey, do you feel like you're supposed to be. Like, you're the one responsible for how good or bad sex goes? What do you. What are the expectations you have of yourself? Or the pressure that you put on your own shoulders around, like, what you're supposed to deliver, the kind of of experience that you're supposed to create. I think you'll be really surprised to hear what he has to say. Also, I just want to say this whole conversation about feedback is one of the reasons why we created our ultimate foreplay guides, is we know it can feel vulnerable to give your partner feedback. So we wanted to create technique based guides that give you specific techniques to use and a specific framework for talking about those techniques with your partner. Because when you go through this guide, you get to blame the guide for everything rather than feeling like you and your partner are being vulnerable and putting yourselves out there. And then the other person saying, like, oh, I didn't like that. So, like, we give you, we walk you through in those guides exactly how to experiment with different techniques and exactly how to give each other feedback so that you're giving feedback to the techniques, to the guides, not to each other. So there's this way that you're able to say, like, oh, interesting that they like, included that one. It doesn't really do that much for me. Or like, this one was my favorite. Or here my top three. Like, it's just so much easier. That is one of the most consistent pieces of feedback that we get from people who go through those guides. As I say, it just made it so much easier to talk about our preferences, to explore new things without either of us feeling vulnerable or feeling like we were potentially being criticized. So we will put the link to check that out in the show notes. You can also just go straight to vmtherapy.com foreplay if you want to check it out.
- [33:56]
B
Out.
- [33:57]
A
All right. Xander. Reverse cowgirl. Is the view really that great?
- [34:02]
B
Sure is. Sure is. I mean, God.
- [34:05]
A
Okay, tell, tell the folks what reverse cowgirl is for anybody who doesn't know.
- [34:10]
B
Okay. Reverse cowgirl is when, like, I would be lying on my back on the bed and then Vanessa would get on me with her back to my face, basically. So facing we were so that she would basically sit down on my penis in, you know, where we are both facing the same direction so I can see her back. And then she would, she would basically get on on her knees. Like she would put her knees on either side of me.
- [34:42]
A
I'm really very complex description. Okay.
- [34:44]
B
It's like cowgirl, but she's turned the other direction. You said describe what, what it's like. So I was like, okay, well, I guess I can't use other sex positions as a refecting. You to be like, it's just cowgirl turned 180 degrees. Um, him turned 180 or you turned 180. You both will end up in the same place. Yes, the view is excellent in general. I gotta say, man, women, vulva owners really do get the short end of the stick on the. The view. The visual aspect of sex. I. I can't really think of any position where you would have a better view than I would. Yeah, yeah. And we comment on this a lot during sex where I'm like. I'm like, oh, man, that is so good. That is so hot. I'm like. I'm like, shit. You can't really see that, can you?
- [35:34]
A
I'm like, nope, I sure cannot.
- [35:36]
B
No. Like, we need a little hand mirror. Seriously, we gotta do that one of these days. Just so that you can get a sense of what it is that I get to experience. Um, yeah. Okay, so. But no, anyway.
- [35:48]
A
Distracted.
- [35:49]
B
Yes, the view. Yes, the view is great because you. Well, you just get to see that ass, obviously, bouncing up and down. But really what you get to see is you basically get to see the, like, the. The. The vaginal lips essentially kind of like going up and down on your penis in a way that you don't really get to see in any other position. And it's. It's a view, let me tell you.
- [36:19]
A
Okay, let's talk about the butthole, because women get really nervous about this, I think. In doggy style, even more.
- [36:26]
B
Yes, I'll say. Reverse cowgirl is not a forward position, but doggy is absolutely, like, there. I don't. I don't. I don't think so. Unless you were to really, like, spread.
- [36:39]
A
Yeah, sometimes I get down, like, spread. Reaching behind.
- [36:43]
B
If I were to spread it. No, don't spread it.
- [36:48]
A
Like, why am I on top reaching behind myself to spread my chin?
- [36:51]
B
Don't. Don't do that. Don't do that. That is unnecessary. It also might throw you off balance.
- [36:57]
A
No, no, I meant, like, if I come down to my elbows, maybe.
- [37:01]
B
If you do that or.
- [37:02]
A
No, I don't usually come down all the way to the elbows, but I kind of, like, lean forward more. Like bending my elbows.
- [37:07]
B
Yeah, no, it is not really. It's not like a cheek spread apart as much as doggy.
- [37:13]
A
Okay.
- [37:13]
B
So I think that's probably conscious. Yes, I'm pretty sure that reverse cowgirl is safer. I mean, I can't guarantee you a complete safety. Safety. Complete.
- [37:26]
A
But whole safety. But whole privacy.
- [37:29]
B
Yeah. But even still, I can. I can very close to guarantee you that he is going to enjoy the view butthole or not. But butthole.
- [37:41]
A
But you do like the butthole view too?
- [37:42]
B
Yeah, it's hot.
- [37:45]
A
Yeah, I know we've discussed this in other episodes before.
- [37:48]
B
There is very little if we're in the middle of sex. There's like very little that I can think of that I'm gonna be actively turned off by when it comes to a body.
- [37:58]
A
That's definitely one of the most interesting conversations that you and I have ever had before. Like that. Yeah, that your brain. Just because I think women's brain, sex
- [38:06]
B
is on the brain.
- [38:07]
A
We're so hardwired to be critical of our bodies at all times and especially during sex. I mean, I will never forget being in line at the grocery store as like a 16 year old and seeing, you know, the women's magazine saying, like sex positions that don't show belly bulge or like the worst positions that you have to avoid because your body will look so gross in this. And learning that you like there's just no space in your brain for thinking negative thoughts about the body during sex is mind boggling for me.
- [38:39]
B
Sex, naked bodies. Fuck yeah. Sex, body parts, bodily fluids. Fuck yeah. Let's go. Like, seriously, that's like on a loop in my head.
- [38:50]
A
But what if they look fat? What if they're cellulite? What if there's rolls of skin?
- [38:56]
B
They look like exactly what I would expect it to look like when we're having sex sex.
- [39:00]
A
And also I just have to throw in a super quick plug. For our ultimate sex positions, we go over a reverse cowgirl and dozens of other positions in tons of detail. Exactly how to get into the position, how to move in it, how to transition between other positions, what each position is good for. We give you positions that I promise you have not tried before. There are so many fun positions in there. It's another really fun thing to to explore. And just like I was mentioning, with the ultimate foreplay guides, we also give you frameworks for how to share your favorite positions with each other. So we'll also put that link in the show notes, but you can go straight to vmtherapy.com positions if you want to check it out. We have tried a lot of different electrolyte brands over the years, but we keep coming back to Cure. Cure has absolutely clean ingredients. It's coconut water and pink Himalayan salt doing the work, not sugar. They come in incredible flavors. Not too sweet, not too salty. They've got flavors like peach, mango, berry, pomegranate, watermelon. Lemonade, which is Xander's personal favorite. Strawberry, kiwi, ginger, turmeric, blood orange and tropical punch. Like everybody's gonna find something that they want on that list, right?
- [40:18]
B
Yeah, they sent me a variety pack a while ago and I've tried every single one and they're all delicious.
- [40:23]
A
They come in these really convenient little packets. So you can just toss em in your purse, toss em in the car, keeps em at your desk so you can always hydrated on the go. And Cure Hydration is officially in target now. You can find it at your local target or get 20% off at cure hydration.com with Code Pillow Talks. That's 20% off at cure hydration dot com with Code Pillow talks. All right. How do men really feel about female discharge?
- [40:59]
B
Okay, are we, are we talking about like discharge during sex or just discharge like in general?
- [41:05]
A
Tell me what you know about female discharge.
- [41:07]
B
Honestly, I don't know. I mean I know that discharge is a thing. Correct me if I'm wrong. In general, female discharge is a. It's a very long, slow and drawn out process. It's not like, it's not like discharge just a. Like a tablespoon of discharge appears.
- [41:23]
A
Yeah.
- [41:24]
B
Like it is essentially like akin to sweating in a way.
- [41:29]
A
Yeah. It's like you're. You're doing it all throughout the day. You might, you might feel moments of there being a bit more than other times. But yeah, it's not like all of a sudden your underwear are soaking wet.
- [41:40]
B
I mean I know enough about it to know that I love, I love vaginas and I love, you know, man, it is pretty incredible how they self clean and so I, I appreciate that like discharge is the way that it does that. That's pretty cool.
- [41:58]
A
Okay, and what about like during sex itself is.
- [42:02]
B
I'm not even sure that it's something that you can be that aware of during sex. Like it's just all part of like the lubric, you know, the, like lubricate the, the you know, self lubrication and whatnot. Like. Right. Like it's just all part of the mix. So of. I mean during sex is an activity that produces bodily fluids and generally like those are associated with good times, let's say. So I'm not like, okay, yeah, like lubrication good, like come good discharge. Ew. Like it's just like, you know, it's all gonna kind of be the same thing. Right. Like it's just, just these are the things that occur when we have sex and I associate those all very positively because they're byproducts of sex, which I love and is highly pleasurable and hot, right? So, like, yeah, like, they're. It's all a good thing.
- [43:02]
A
I think this question comes from the socialization that we get as women. That our genitals are weird and icky and smelly and gross and look strange and taste strange and smell bad and all of that. Like, it's just. I think for the average woman. For the average woman, it is almost impossible to imagine a man not being grossed out by our vulvas because we spent our entire lives being told that our vulvas are gross.
- [43:27]
B
I mean, shit, I'm pretty fucking enamored with your vulva. And anything that wants to come out of there, I'm happy with it.
- [43:37]
A
Anything that's awful. There's not, like, random objects falling out of there or anything like that.
- [43:46]
B
Whatever is coming out when we're having sex, I'm all for it. I say bring it on.
- [43:53]
A
All right. Do men get upset if their partner needs a vibrator to help with an orgasm?
- [44:00]
B
I think men shouldn't be upset. I do think that unfortunately, due to some shitty socialization, there are a lot of men that do feel a sort of way about this. But I. I think that if we were to actually sit down and talk to those men and try to better understand where that's coming from and maybe give them some. Some very. Some kind education, I think that most men would stop holding on to that belief. So I think that the vast majority of men absolutely are not going to get upset if they need a vibe. In fact, like, I can't think of much else hotter than, like, watching your partner use a toy to get off. Especially if I'm in. Still, if I'm also involved in it, like, that sounds great. Why would I not want that? Right. I do think, though, that there are some men that, like, we were just talking about the socialization that as a man, that you are in charge of the sexual experience. It's your responsibility to know your partner's body better than they do, to give them an orgasm. That's how. That's a measure of how much of a man you are. So if that's the way that you've been brought up and that is what you believe, then what else are you gonna think? If your partner's like, yeah, you know what? You're not. You're not doing it for me. Your dick's not good enough. It's not, you know, it's not doing it for me. I gotta. I Gotta do, I gotta grab something else and help myself. That is completely at odds with that socialization. Right. What you are essentially saying without saying is, you're not enough of a man for me. You're not good enough. You, you suck at, you don't know what you're doing. What's wrong with you? Now no woman is actually saying that, is actually using those words. But if you have been socialized as a man to feel like you are 100% ultimately responsible for your partner's pleasure, then seeing hearing them say, hey, I need a vibrator to have an orgasm is going to feel like a slap in the face now. So the answer is not like, oh, so then we got to avoid the vibrator at all costs. The answer is we got to start opening the conversation around what our roles actually are when it comes to sex. I think these are really important conversations, ideally to be having very early in your relationship. Now, most people don't, so they're really important to have today. Then tomorrow, like start to have these conversations because this really starts to get out that kind of some of the really important underlying beliefs around sex and masculinity and gender roles. And I think that being able to start to talk about this, you might start to see. Oh. Hmm. That, oh, well, if they are, if they really do believe some of this stuff, maybe that's why we've been having disagreements about this topic or that topic. And at the very least, this helps you either start to move the needle and help them believe, hey, actually sucks is something that we totally do together, or at the very least it starts to surface, hey, we might have some real differing views, some real opposing views when it comes to this. And honestly, I think a lot of people think, oh, I'd rather not know that we're not compatible in a certain area. Honestly, I think the sooner that you can find out that you're incompatible in a certain way, the better because it gives you the option to take action. It gives you the option to say, you know what, what, I think this isn't gonna work. If you truly want to view sex in this way, that it's all about you doing something to me and that we don't have a, you know, this isn't a team sport, like, you know, then at least that lets you think about, do I, do I want to be in a sexual relationship with someone for the rest of my life where we are on different pages about this. I don't think it's a great idea to stay in a long term relationship with someone, a man that believes that you using a vibrator during sex to. To supplement his penis. I don't think that that is a great. I don't think that's a great relationship to be in.
- [48:03]
A
Interesting. He went in a direction I. I wasn't really expecting. I. I have a maybe slightly different take on this, and I want to be really clear and careful. Like. Like. So, okay. In male, female relationships, we've been social. We're talking so much about socialization in this episode, but we've been socialized to believe that intercourse is the main thing, the main event that's, you know, the home run. And intercourse actually is not the thing that is the most pleasurable for most women. The vast majority of women cannot orgasm from penetration alone. It's not how our bodies are literally hardwired to work. I also think that however people experience pleasure and reach orgasm is great and amazing. There's no hierarchy. There's no better or worse than. I also think that, you know, women have been. We've gotten the short end of the orgasm stick for a very long time. We still, you know, are having way fewer orgasms than men are having. So I want women to orgasm, and I want them to orgasm in whatever way feels good for them. All that being said, I do think there's some nuance here around how those orgasms happen. And it's not even specifically about a vibrator, But I think of, like, I want, at least in our sex life, I'll just speak about our sex life. I want our sex life to feel like something that we are doing together.
- [49:32]
B
Yes.
- [49:33]
A
And if I imagine some alternate universe where, let's say, like, we do some stuff together and then you, like, stop and you bring out your own toy and you're just using that toy on yourself and making yourself orgasm. If that was what happened every single time, I can imagine that there would be a part of me that would think like, huh, it kind of feels like we're losing the intimacy and the connection. Like, he's grabbing his toy. We're not really, like, doing anything together anymore. I don't feel like I'm a part of his pleasure and his orgasm and helping him get there, I can't imagine that that would start to feel disconnecting. So I think with something like a vibrator, I think there is some nuance in how you use it. So if it's like your partner using it on you, or you're the one holding it, but the two of you are, like, making out and your Partner's touching all over your body or you're talking dirty to each other. I think that's great. But the one specific example of somebody just grabbing the vibrator and going to town on themselves and not involving their partner, like, I can see that starting to maybe hurt a partner's feelings a little bit.
- [50:46]
B
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm. So I might revise my answer if your male partner is like, hey, I would love to know a little bit more about, you know, the vibrator experience for you. And, you know, like, are there. Are there ways that we could adjust the way that we're having sex so that, you know, so that, like, the orgasm is happening more like. Like, it's something that's happening because we're doing it together to each other rather than, you know, we have sex. I come, and then you finish with a vibrator. Like, are there ways that we could change what we're doing to make this, like, not so that we have to have an orgasm at the exact same time, but, like, that it's. That it's happening, you know, together between our hands and our mouths and my penis. Is there a way that we could. Could, you know, could we, as a team, experiment? Not like, we have to do this tomorrow, but, like, could we figure something out if that is what your partner is saying? If that is what they're, you know, their version of, hey, I'm upset because it just feels like you're always coming on your own, and it's like, I'm not involved in it at all, but I want to be involved, then. Yeah, that's a different story. Like, because. Yeah. And then if she's just like, no, I want to come with my vibrator, and that's. That, like, that's not a very great con. Like, he's looking for more connection with you and more exploration with you, and you're shutting him down. You're like, no, I kind of want to have the solo experience. That's a very different story. I was kind of. My. My initial take was really focused on the more stereotypical version of this, which is, you shouldn't need to use that. Like, I should be enough for you. Because I think the problem is most men shut down the vibrator thing. Oh, sorry. Most men who have a problem with vibrators shut down the vibrator thing and then don't come with any new solutions. That's the part that's not okay to me. I do. I agree with you. I think that ideally we should be trying as we should be. Like, hey, let's explore a bunch of different options to see if we can find a way to either incorporate the toy so that it is. Is being used in a connecting experience rather than a, like a solo experience. Or even better, let's see if we can, like, find ways between our, you know, hands, mouths, and my penis to figure out if we can make this happen. That is. That's really the ideal. But the problem is, a lot of men who have problems with this go, no, like, oh, this wasn't a problem with my past partners. Like, well, she always came from intercourse. Like, shouldn't you. You just gotta relax more. It's like, you know, they kind of go with the spiritual bypassy stuff. Oh, I. I'm supposed to be enough for you, you know, that is the one that's not okay if that is how your partner is behaving. That's a. We gotta get to the root of this ASAP and see if we can change your perspective. And if not, I'm outta here. Like, this is. That is. I hate to be that cut and dry, but that will not be a satisfying sexual relationship for you for the rest of your life, I promise you.
- [53:46]
A
Yeah, and to be fair, I think the. The amount of times that what I described happens that, like, a woman just gets her toy and, like, totally checks out and does it on her own. I think that's a very small percentage of times. Like, I think the vast majority of the times people are using toys together, and I think that's a great thing. I want people to do that. I think toys are a great addition
- [54:05]
B
to the bedroom and also mutual masturbation. If you decide, hey, we like, each using a toy side by side, and we like orgasming like that. Fuck, yeah. Keep on doing that.
- [54:17]
A
Yeah, absolutely. We actually have a whole podcast episode about that because it's one of our favorite things. But yeah, I just wanted to, like, add some nuance to it, because I do think it is. Yeah, there's some interesting, like, details that come up in there. All right, well, let's wrap things up with just a couple of quick fire questions that I'm actually not gonna have Xander answer. I am going to have you, listener, dear listener, with a male partner, ask these to your partner, because these were all preference questions, and preferences are just wildly different. I don't think there's even a dime a dozen. Yeah, and like Xander saying whether or not he thinks men like these or not. So here are the questions for you to ask to your partner. Do you like Phone sex? Do you like sex sticks? Do you like hand jobs? Do you want to have a threesome? Well, maybe don't ask that unless you are offering that. If it's not something that you want to do, maybe you don't need to ask that. But you could just say, like, hey, I mean, you could say, I'm not really open to this, but I'm curious if, like, a threesome is something that you've ever thought about.
- [55:25]
B
Yeah. To be clear, this. When this was worded as a question to me, it was threesomes. Is this actually a man's dream? So, you know, if you're curious, is this. Are threesomes something that you, you know, kind of. Was that something you found yourself thinking about from a young age or something? Might be a question, but, yeah, that one might be a little tricky because it might give him the impression that you're offering.
- [55:47]
A
Yeah. Same thing with this one. Is anal. Something they really want. You know, if you don't want to experiment with that, make sure your partner knows that. And do you like to listen to music during sex? But also, we think that you should listen to music during sex. You should. It's better.
- [56:02]
B
It's honestly better.
- [56:05]
A
All right, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.